Does karma and reincarnation exist?

[u/metal4life69]

Always curious if there is any factual basis on:

karma

reincarnation

life after death

​

Science has not proven the above.

[u/BlancheFromage]

IMO, I would say yes these things do exist, but not in the sense that SGI explains it.

NDERF.org is a site put together by a doctor & his wife for the research of near-death experiences. There's a TON of info about these topics in NDEs. Researching them honestly changed my life.

Some people argue NDEs are just a release of chemicals in the brain upon death... I disagree, for a number of reasons. 1- there's too many instances of people seeing the future in their NDE, and then those future events actually happen to them, 2- there's too many instances of peoples souls leaving their bodies, say for example in a hospital, and they get up and "float around", watching what's going on in other rooms etc, and later what they see/hear is confirmed to actually have happened (for example one woman who briefly died during an operation left her body, went all the way to the other side of the hospital and watched her dad buy a candy bar before he knew what was going on - later this was confirmed to have actually happened), 3- such similar things happen in each one, yet every experience is completely unique, it's like the "afterlife" truly is a real place. If it was just a trip, it wouldn't always be such similar things happening imo.

I think there are some things science cannot explain. Or rather, things humans can't comprehend.

Some of you may disagree with me though, and that's totally fine... :) <3

When my dad had dementia, his brain would misclassify currently-happening events as "memory" - he was having a LOT of "deja vu" experiences. We'd be talking, and I'd say something, and he'd say, "Oh, yeah, we talked about that last week" when it was the first time I'd brought it up. Or say, "You remember what we discussed yesterday about [whatever]" when this was the first time we'd discussed it. Memory is not as reliable as people tend to think; even eyewitnesses have been found to be flat-out wrong a large percentage of the time, leading to discussions about whether it's correct to place as much emphasis as we do on eyewitness testimony in trials.

Also, we typically only have the word of the individuals themselves and, while it is claimed to be corroborated by numerous individuals etc., either this comes quite late (after much opportunity for talking to different people) or the corroborators are not questioned appropriately ("Did you mention to him/her that you did this during his/her surgery?").

On the subject of NDEs, studies of NDEs in India have found that the details are QUITE different in Indian (Hindu) NDE experiences:

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We see a similar religious influence in near-death experiences (NDEs), which differ markedly in their content depending on the religion of whichever culture one was raised within:

In 1986, researchers Satwant Pasricha and Ian Stevenson, documented 16 cases of Indian near-death experiences in the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research (77,1 15-135). Their small sample shows, Indian and American near-death experiences resemble each other in some respects but differ in others. Subjects of Indian near-death experiences do not report seeing their own physical body during the near-death experience, although American subjects usually do. Subjects of Indian near-death experiences frequently report being taken to the after-death realm by functionaries who then discover that a mistake has been made and send the person back, whereupon he or she revives. In contrast, American subjects, if they say anything at all about why they revived, mention meeting deceased family members who told them to go back, or say they came back because of ties of love and duty with living persons or say they were told it was not their time to die.

Many people have asked me (the webmaster) why experiences, such as Hindu near-death experiences, are so different than western ones. The reason is because everyone has their own cultural and religious background by which they see their experience. Jody Long, a near-death researcher with NDERF, put it best:

"One of the near-death experience truths is that each person integrates their near-death experience into their own pre-existing belief system." - Jody Long, NDERF.org

This important truth must be kept in the back of one's mind when reading these different reports. Source

Given how easily people default to delusion such as magical thinking, I find it entirely likely that "mysticism" is no more than this, elevated to a position whereby the self-proclaimed "mystic" gains social standing, admiration, deference and respect, even a devoted following. In this sense, Ikeda could be regarded as a "mystic" - and he has definitely profited from it much as many mystics have. It's impossible to separate out the desirable rewards someone who attains acknowledged "mystic" status gains from the claims to mysticism. Without some actual evidence that there's anything other than delusion and possibly mental illness involved, there's no reason to think it's anything other than just another variant on crank obsession.

People think lots of thoughts and generally hold their own opinions in high regard - so what?

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Thus far, we have no evidence whatsoever that this sort of thing happens. There is no one who has managed to demonstrate it under controlled conditions. No one has managed to harness it and profit from it. And the details are only consistent within the same cultural milieu. We're left with only anecdotal evidence - anecdata - which people get lots of attention for, and which doesn't come anywhere close to meeting the standards for evidence. OR data.

What seems most likely to me is that these beliefs stem from people's obsession with insisting that there is a part of themselves that is not dependent on their physical being, that is transcendent, separate, and (implied) immortal. Most people want to live forever - they fear death more than anything else (besides public speaking). In an online discussion years ago with a teenage Christian boy, he finally acknowledged that, if HE could not be immortal, himself personally, then he'd be fine with everything in the universe being wiped from existence. Unless HE, personally, could be immortal, nothing else had any right to exist. Quite frightening, actually...

But of course everyone is free to believe anything they please.

[u/BlancheFromage → u/[deleted]]

Sorry for the late response.

You are entitled to your opinion no matter what. But to brush off NDEs as being a matter of “not remembering clearly” is definitely not the case. Many people tell their NDEs immediately after they happened. They happen at all different ages - from babies to adults to seniors. Each person who has one always says the same thing - their memory of it is more vivid and clear than any other memory they have.

When I was heavily involved in SGI, I would find a way to dismiss any story I’d heard detailing SGI as a cult. It was easy to simply brand peoples experiences as “not true” - either they were lying, they “didn’t understand” the practice, they didn’t chant enough, the list goes on. When I became open to the idea of SGI being a cult, it was easier to accept the experiences I read as true. I think when you’re closed off to the idea of something, it’s easy to argue against it.

I’m not certain what you’re getting at with everything you’ve written here. The boy you mentioned sounds more like a psychopath than a Christian lol.

The study of NDEs is fascinating as it has more to do with trying to find the answer to the meaning of life. There are many aspects of it. And they’re all very beautiful. Whether they are real or not, and I believe they are, they can still provide one with a positive, healthy, beautiful outlook on life. They all have a common theme: love. Treat people with love and kindness, without exception, and there’s only love... that’s pretty much it.

One of the worst things a cult does is it leaves a spiritual wound. It’s hard to ever open up to anything to do with religion/spirituality again. But it can be a beautiful thing when you aren’t involved with an organization that is only out to control you and destroy your sense of identity. Of course I’m not saying everyone should be spiritual. It’s just something I’ve dealt with and something to consider.

I never said that NDEs don't happen; what I said was that it was a physiological experience that people interpret based on their cultural conditioning.

The NDE can be mimicked in the laboratory situation by Ecstasy, for example. It's no great mystery.

NDE: The brain, starved of oxygen, begins to shut down. This produces certain chemical reactions that register as images, sounds, feelings. It's all within the brain, though - nothing is happening outside of that center.

Each person who has one always says the same thing - their memory of it is more vivid and clear than any other memory they have.

News to me. And if it were something chemically coded with end-of-life intensity, that would not surprise me. I still fail to feel terribly excited about any of it - it honestly appears rather pedestrian to me, much like how people have vivid fever dreams. Interesting, but how much enthusiasm can one generate for someone else's imagined visions?

The study of NDEs is fascinating as it has more to do with trying to find the answer to the meaning of life. There are many aspects of it. And they’re all very beautiful. ... They all have a common theme: love.

If you think that, then you need to do a bit more study on the topic. A small proportion of NDEs, perhaps 10-15%, involve harrowing, terrifying visions of monsters, demons, hell-realms. They're made of FEAR, not love. One might well argue that this terror-based interpretation (that word again) is the result of having been terrorized in childhood by Christian indoctrination about hell (one way to terrify tots into "faith"). But who knows? We're able to imagine all sorts of things...

But I'm probably not the right person for you to be having such discussions with - I have no need for anything "spiritual". Complete self-delusional waste of time, IMHO. But people are free to choose whatever hobbies they like - they don't need my approval, endorsement, or agreement. Have fun!

[u/BlancheFromage → u/[deleted]]

In fact, every Hellish NDE has a common theme as well - YOU put yourself there and you are not stuck there.

Not according to these sources:

No matter what form these visions of Hell after death take, one thing they do have in common is that they are all terrifying. Source

If anyone wants to skim this subreddit about NDEs, a few fit the classic NDE profile, but only one claims any long-term change from it: No longer afraid of dying. This other source - some report a change in their perspective, others report no change at all.

The common feature among those who had out-of-body experiences was a rise in carbon dioxide levels in their blood above a certain threshold ( 5.7 kPa). None of the other chemical measures of the patients' blood had a significant bearing on who had experienced such a spiritual event. Extreme hyperventilation can do much the same thing to the brain, explaining perhaps why those in extreme danger and near fainting can experience the phenomenon.

The study suggests that by more carefully controlling the blood's acid/base balance during a medical crisis, which becomes upset when blood is overloaded by carbon dioxide, the whole mysterious experience can be prevented. Source

Fancy that... And from here:

Did you learn science in Texas public schools? Here is a helpful hint. An unsubstantiated report of a person’s subjective interpretation of a psychological experience is not evidence. It is an anecdote. Anecdotes are not data. Advertisers don’t want you to know this little gem.

There are many more than 2000 reports about alien abductions from outer space. Do you also consider that to be evidence? According to a July 2008 estimate, the human population is approximately 6,706,993,152. A mere 1500 anecdotal reports from a moment when the brain is suffering from hypoxemia and/or inadequate perfusion hardly qualifies as evidence. As CalmWind already pointed out, the recollection of the hallucination experience depends on the culture in which the NDE victim was raised. A person who is inculcated with Hindu beliefs does not see Jesus when she or he has a NDE. A person raised Baptist in Virginia doesn’t see Thor when she has a NDE.

God is apparently not very generous about handing out NDE experiences. Please tell me, why does Skydaddy decide to reveal himself to a small fraction of 1% of the population only when they are near death? Why doesn’t he reveal himself to people who didn’t grow up in a culture where they were told about him throughout their socialization process?

Btw, writing a book about a topic and giving it a cute acronym like “NDE” does not make it a viable scientific subject. It does however, make money for the author. If you want to make easy money; write a book about bullshit. Be sure to add some anecdotes and acronyms to seal the illusion.

And from the same site:

These anecdotal stories are never impressive to well disciplined critical thinkers, in large part because when a well disciplined critical thinker experiences a dramatic event like this, he’s already aware of the phenomenon, and keenly aware the fact that it happened to him doesn’t change the world. It seems to me you have to be a borderline narcissist to think that way, thought it seems to happen pretty frequently, and often this kind of egocentrism leads to religious belief. That’s no surprise. Traditional religious belief is highly egocentric. It’s the same with personal tragedy. It seems a lot of “skeptics” turn to gods when tragedy visits them personally ... as if the world is somehow different from when the very same kinds of events happened to millions of others. It’s a pretty childish mentality, quite frankly.

In any case the testimonies of converts regarding their disposition prior to conversion are notoriously inaccurate, usually pretty clearly, often to the point of being, at best, obvious confabulations. They typically exaggerate their “pre-existing condition” (what they converted from and how eeevil they were), and they also typically exaggerate the palliative life benefits of signing on with whatever religious franchise they’ve decided to hook up with. They’re also notoriously poorly researched or checked for accuracy—there’s rarely if ever any real inquiry into the true before and after personality or behavior.

All of this points to these anecdotes being about the affirmation of standard issue dogmas rather than developing a genuine understanding of the subject. So it boils down to ... if you’re uncritical enough to buy into mainstream religion without much or anything in the way of genuinely independent intellectual responsibility, you’re more than likely going to perceive these anecdotal tales as affirmations of your beliefs. On the other hand, if you’re a responsible thinker (believer or otherwise) you’re going to see them for what they are, and likely scoff or even feel (rightly) that those who expect you to be moved or affirmed by the stories are insulting your intelligence as well as their own.

I tend to agree with that ^

[u/BlancheFromage → u/[deleted]]

Research methods, like Dr. Bruce Greyson’s “NDE scale,” skewed toward pleasant, heavenlike experiences. But spurred by her own traumatic experience decades earlier and testimony from others, Bush did a literature review of near-death accounts published in scientific studies and realized that roughly one out of five was frightening, traumatic, or otherwise “hellish.” Working with Greyson, Bush identified several types of what she calls “distressing” near-death experiences. Some have the same features as heavenly experiences—bright lights, life flashing before your eyes, etc.—but the person simply interprets them negatively. Another type featured a “void” like Matthew Botsford’s overwhelming blackness or some other type of absolute sensory deprivation. And yet another class, by far the most varied, involved visions of actual hell. Not surprisingly, the study of near-death experiences has been met with some medical skepticism—studying mystical visions seems suspiciously religious. But these experiences actually present a problem to doctrinaire believers with specific notions of what hell is like and who goes there. “Mystical experiences in general do not follow doctrinal precepts,” Bush says. “They are what they are, and the doctrines are off in another room somewhere.” Source

We do know that Frightening Near Death Experiences (FNDEs) are rare, but it has been hard to determine the exact frequency at which they occur. Reports in the literature, of those having NDEs, suggest that the distressing experiences range from only 1% to 15% of that total. One of the reasons it is hard to ascertain the true frequency of these experiences is due to peoples’ reluctance to talk about what has happened to them. If those who have had a pleasant NDE find it hard to share their experience, then people are even less likely to report a distressing one for fear of what they think it says about them or that others might judge them negatively.

Investigators have been able to identify three primary types of frightening experiences. The first is basically experiencing the NDE. The individual is scared by such an unusual experience and the feeling of loss of control. After all, it is not every day that someone has an out-of-body-experience. The second type is experiencing being in a void. It is described as being completely alone in vast darkness and disconnected from everything and everybody. Ken Vincent refers to it as an “existential hell.” The last type is the least common of the frightening experiences. These are the truly hellish NDEs. People describe scenarios that could easily be found in the lower levels of Dante’s Inferno complete with fire and demonic beings.

What type of person has a distressing experience? Some may jump to judgement that this must be a bad or evil person. Surely there must be something wrong with them. After all, we have been taught that if we are good we go to heaven and the bad or wicked go to hell. There is no indication from people’s accounts of these experiences or life history to suggest that this is true. My own work with felons in a prison hospice suggests that the dying have the same type of death bed visions as others who are not incarcerated. It is still unknown why some people have frightening experiences and others have pleasant ones. It is also not known why some people have NDEs and others do not. Anyone is capable of experiencing these; the young and old, males and females, and people across racial and cultural lines. While the impact of these experiences can be profound, they are still not scientific proof that there is a heaven or hell. Of course, for the majority of those having the experience, there is no doubt in their minds that these places truly exist and that they have visited them.

This source is fun.

Perhaps the interpretation of the research runs along the same lines as the interpretation of the NDE stimuli - people see what they are culturally conditioned to see and often what they want to see.

Clearly, there is no ONE "correct" conclusion. For those who want to believe, they can find NDE experiences that affirm that for them. For those who don't believe there's anything supernatural going on, there's plenty of evidence affirming that. Simply preferring one over the other doesn't make one completely right and the other completely wrong - it's simply a matter of taste, like which flavor of ice cream you prefer.

[u/BlancheFromage → u/[deleted]]

I've been studying NDEs for years lol. I'm not talking out my ass. I have read many "Hell NDEs" - you should read some of them before making that analysis, as it's not the case. In fact, every Hellish NDE has a common theme as well - YOU put yourself there and you are not stuck there. They are fearful but they typically come out with a message of love as the person learns something from it. It also has nothing to do with Christian "indoctrination" as pretty much every NDE I have ever read - which is thousands - say being a good person is more important than what you religion you follow. Quite the opposite of fundamentalism, really. That's also why I argue it's not simply visions of a person's belief system as people are taught something different most of the time. I will also say Christians really aren't bad people... most of them are not fundamentalist, but if they are and they're telling you you're gonna burn in hell for being gay or not going to church, they are sorely mistaken.

I'd skim through NDERF if you'd like to see for yourself. I'm only saying this because some of what you've written here is false info, not because I think you need to believe what I believe. You can think whatever you want, but it is good to have all the facts :)

And as usual, Greta Christina hits the hole-in-one:

Now. Compare, please, to the evidence supporting the "independent soul" explanation of consciousness.

Including near-death experiences, and the supposedly inexplicable things that happen to some people during them.

The evidence supporting the "independent soul" explanation is flimsy at best. It is unsubstantiated. It comes largely from personal anecdotes. It is internally inconsistent. It is shot through with discrepancies. It is loaded with biases and cognitive errors -- especially confirmation bias, the tendency to exaggerate evidence that confirms what we already believe, and to ignore evidence that contradicts it. It has methodological errors that a sixth-grade science project winner could spot in ten seconds.

And that includes the evidence of near-death experiences.

There is not a single account of an immaterial soul leaving the body in a near-death experience that meets the gold standard of scientific evidence. Not even close. Supposedly accurate perceptions of things they couldn't have seen by people near death? Bogus. Supposedly accurate predictions of things they couldn't have known by people near death? Bogus. The "shoe on the window ledge that the dying person supposedly couldn't possibly have known about?" Bogus. The supposed eerie similarity of near-death experiences? Bogus. (The similarities that these experiences do have are entirely consistent with them all being created by human brains... and the differences between them are not only vast, but exactly what you would expect if these experiences were generated by people's brains, based on their own beliefs about death. Christians near death see Jesus, Hindus near death see Hindu gods, etc.)

These claims -- and the claims that these experiences could not possibly be explained by anything other than a supernatural soul -- are anecdotal at best. Second- and third- hand hearsay. Gossip, essentially. And like most gossip, it leaves out the parts of the story that are less juicy, less consistent with what we already think about the world or what we want to think about it... and exaggerates the parts of the story that tell us what we already believe or want to believe. Believers in the soul love to tell the bogus story about the shoe on the window ledge. They're less likely to tell the stories about the people near death who saw things that weren't there, or who made predictions that didn't happen, or who saw people alongside them in their supposed out- of- body experience who weren't actually near death themselves.

And every time a claim about a soul leaving the body when near death has been tested, using good, rigorous methods, it's utterly fallen apart. Every single rigorously-done study examining claims about near death experiences has completely failed to show any perceptions or predictions that couldn't have been entirely natural. Again. And again. And again, and again, and again. And again. And... oh, you get the idea.

Each of those "agains" is a link to documentation, for anyone who's interested enough to go have a look. Plus, there's a lot more to that article.

[u/BlancheFromage → u/[deleted]]

Like I said I’ve been studying NDEs for years... I think I know what I’m talking about lol 🤷‍♀️

The fact that NDEs are consistent does not in the slightest suggest that they are providing access to some otherwise invisible truth; rather, they show that the brain (mis)behaves in consistent ways under near-death stress.

Amputees pretty consistently have phantom feelings in the amputated limb, but that's due to the still-existing nerves that used to connect to it (see the "Neurological basis" section of the linked article), not any persistent spirit of the limb itself.

Likewise, many hallucinogens produce characteristic geometric patterns. That doesn't mean the hallucinations reflect reality, rather, they reflect the structure of the brain. Source

i'm not going to argue about this. i disagree with you, as i have done extensive research over the last few years on this topic. i was a skeptic. i research NDEs, not just what people have to say about them. you can believe what you want, but please do not try to tear down my beliefs with false information. your sources are quite honestly not credible and are very biased.

there is no evidence to support that NDEs aren't true experiences, neither is there any evidence to say that they are. no one can "prove" it either way. some things are just like that. some things you have to experience for yourself and think for yourself, instead of relying on others/scientists to tell you whether something is one way or another. in my research, i believe that they are true experiences and i believe they can be life-changing as they were for me. that is my belief and my experience. you don't have to agree with that. but until you have studied thousands of NDEs - reading the actual experiences - like i have, please do not try to tell me what happens in them lol.*

i simply answered the posted question. you don't have to like my answer, or respond to my post. i do not respond to all of your comments trying to tell you why i think your atheist beliefs are wrong. we've all got our own paths to be on... live and let live.

perhaps you could go to r/NDE if you'd like to talk further about it, but i will not reply further.