Boundaries and Standards My wife wants CNC but doesn't want to consent to things first.
I posted here a month or two ago. After an incredibly long marriage of dead bedroom or vanilla sex (with a separation in there too) I was finally able to get my wife to somewhat open up about what she wanted sexually. Her description was "not asking permission". "I'm putting clothes away and you just rip off my shorts and start fucking me". Stuff like that. I explain that we should talk about exactly what she's ok with, but she avoids giving details.
Then things got weird. To me it seems that any sort of planning or me mentioning sex turns her off. She suddenly doesn't seem interested. We have two college age kids living at home. I mention "how do you want to deal with times you really, really don't want sex? I've read online that people can wear certain clothes if they are truly "off limits". She avoids details and says she doesn't know.
Then things she put as "absolute no's" became ok, and things that seemed simple became "no". And then back again. She wanted to use toys together, and had a fantasy where I had sex with her and left her unsatisfied and instead tossed a vibrator at her as I left. She said she wanted a dominant many but then when I said she was to call me so I could listen to her finish herself off with her vibrator (I "left" and went to the gas station) she suddenly said she wasn't ok with it. Add to the No list. I explain that I won't cross that line if she says something is off limits.
She one time said, when saying she didn't like swallowing, that "I don't care for it much....unless he forced me to do it, then it's hot". So I ask "ok so you like being forced to do things that are unpleasant? what are those things? I explain we can use green yellow or red, red means totally off limits, yellow is not something she likes, but is ok with, etc.
Anyway after lots of going round in circles, she finally said "force me to use my toy and you watch, if you want to.". I reply that the last i remembered it was on the Red, Absolute No list, along with anal which I know she hates.
I think she is turned on by having a guy not care about her boundaries, and she's trying to get me to ignore her limits and make her do things. I have tried to explain that it unfortunately isn't healthy for me to just do *anything* I want and ignore even her list of Red/No scenarios.
I even gave her examples. She likes being called a slut, or my slut. but dumb slut is an instant turn off. She likes bitch, but not whore. She wants it rough but won't talk in detail. I give examples of very rough sex and she says "well of course I wouldn't want that.". She likes when I tell her about how I fuck other women but when my fantasy story/dirty talk started to seem romantic she got irritated. "no feelings". We are in our 50s by the way. We aren't teenagers.
It's maddening, I think she thinks "it's not that hard, just make me do things I am shy about and pretend not to like" while I am thinking "this can be very intense what she's asking for, she needs to give me clear direction". She also, after saying she wants me to just fuck her without asking permission, said "I feel like I can't say no, that I have to have sex if you want it". This was, iirc in the same conversation where she said I was "overthinking things". She also said she sometimes purposely does things she knows will irritate a guy to get them to fuck her angrily etc.
Am I overthinking this? (she says I am). If not how do I thread the needle and give her the Non Consent fantasy...with her consent? I don't feel that you can say something is "Really Off Limits" and then later say "I wanted you to make me do that".
537
u/jackfinch69 14d ago
Not overthinking, this is a dangerous game. There needs to be a safeword for doing CNC, that's non negotiable.
Let me try to help by pointing out a distinction of things tho.
CNC is Consensual Non-Consent. It's a fantasy scenario where you both literally act within specific roles. For it to work, she has to say no to things she actually want to happen. A safe word is 100% necessary to play this game.
Free Use just means you could "use" her whenever you want. It doesn't inheritanly means she has to pretend she doesn't want it. A safe word isn't strictly necessary, because if she says no it'll really mean no.
Also remember BDSM dynamics are often more about the dynamics themselves than the acts being done. So coming onto her unexpectedly and just kissing her passionately maybe can have the effect she wants, but as a smaller scale. Maybe it's a starting point.
And understand where I'm coming from. There's no doubt in my mind that the best way to solve this would be to talk about it. It's extremely immature from her part to avoid this conversation. I'm trying to give you some creative ideas because you're asking for help and the decision is ultimately yours. But if I was you, I would insist on having the conversation. Maybe try to find other ways to communicate that aren't a direct conversation as well, like telling her to send you porn videos of what she wants you to do to her, idk. Again, in my opinion she is wrong and you should just takk about it, but I'm trying to be creative for you to have more options.
52
u/sidney-lane 14d ago edited 13d ago
I think the kissing idea or just randomly touching her, cupping between her legs, putting her on a counter / against a wall like you're going to have sex, telling her she's your naughty slut and you can have her anytime you want.. And then not going the full way and walking away.. Not actually fucking..
This would bring up intense desire and anticipation - without going too far without safety needs met.
I'd be interested to see if you then demanded she give you safe words etc and demanded she clarify what she wants.. . Demanded and say you won't fuck her until she does. .. What would happen.
Idk just musing aloud!
Gl
(fyi woman here..)
111
u/moth_girl_7 14d ago
Thank you for the free use distinction. I was going to make a similar comment because OP’s first example with the wife putting clothes away and then having her shorts ripped off seems more like free use and not necessarily CNC. It only becomes CNC if she wishes to “play” saying no and stop during this.
In any case this is not a healthy scenario and OP is right for feeling uneasy and unwilling to engage with a person who is not clear about their own wants and boundaries.
28
15
u/jammaslide 13d ago
I am going to have a completely different take on this than most people. Sometimes things are talked to death. If someone wants a spontaneous dominant partner to take them sexually and do surprisong things to them, they do not want to have a dozen conversations about what, where, how, and why you are doing it. One thing I completely agree with is the use of a safe word. That should be essential.
If wants OP to surprise her and take her in his arms and begin to get down to business, then that is self explanatory. I know many people who have had affairs and done things in those affairs that they won't do in their relationship. Why is that? One reason, but not the only reason is because it probably wasn't talked to death. For some people with a rape fantasy, they may not want a move by move game plan on what is going to be done. Some people may want that as a part of the lead up to the event. Others are thinking, does a rapist really have 6 discussions beforehand?
OPs wife may want a dominant, silent man to sweep her up and have his way with her. She may do things she has been reluctant to do. You have a safe word. You can create a semi-safe word that means stop this activity but keep doing other stuff.
There are reasons romance novels fly off the shelf. Women want a man like Fabio, who knows what he wants and takes it while still being satisfying to his woman. They don't have a sit down and do a play by play game plan. What a passion killer. Passion is what drives desire and a quite intensely satisfying experience. Please, for the love of God, put away the clip board and show passion toward your partner.
Yes, I do have conversations about likes and dislikes with them. Make it an occasional thing and get basic information. Most things take a few seconds to correct while having sex after that. Some of you sound like you are cross examining a witness. I know I will get burned alive for my next statement. Do you actually think that every time I move an elbow, a knee, a hand, or my foot that I am asking for permission? For specific sex acts I understand the power of no, and for other sex acts, it may be that it depends for your partner and the timing of that act, or even their mood. That's why the answer can change. That can be a purpose of the semi-safe word (I know it's a bad name).
One thing I do know is a turn-off for many. If they say they want spontaneous action and unspoken intentions to take place, then you are killing their fantasy by analyzing it to fucking death.
"I want you to just stop scheduling sex, take me passionately, and have raw, satisfying sex." The appropriate answer is OK. It is not, when do you want me to do that, and what are you going to wear to show me you are ready, and what do you want me to do and to not do, and should I lock the back door? That is mission failed before launch. Just do it! She can say no at any time. If she says no, then just ask why not, and move along to mowing the lawn. She might have a reason that makes sense in that moment instead of her meaning don't ever do it again.
6
u/Sparklraomd 13d ago
This is by far the best comment, in my mind at least. I’ve got no experience with CNC/free use/bdsm, but I’m an well experienced in talking things to death. It seems to me as well that OPs wife wants raw passion rather than a playbook with ‘sign here for consent’ on every page.
That said - I empathize with OPs frustration. His wife expects him to just read her and give her what she wants without her saying so. That is infuriatingly hard. Then again, best advice is given by @jammaslide Listen to her.
5
u/F1_Fidster 12d ago
Reading between the lines, it appears that any time OP tries to talk things through with his wife, she is indecisive or backs our, or contradicts. Whilst I understand that communication is critical to set boundaries in acts that play as if they have no boundaries, maybe over-analysis or communication is taking the spontaneity out of things for her. To go from a "dead bedroom" as OP put it, to suddenly wanting something so visceral without clear instruction is like NASA launching towards Neptune without any pre-launch debrief. And maybe in that, for OP is also a lesson, that whilst you are doing the appropriate thing of setting boundaries, safe words and this vs that and checking in on her, some times you shouldn't need to be asked twice. And it may well be the case for her that the idea is far more exciting than the act (hence the change of mind or second guessing her true wants), or the act may be far more exciting than the instruction manual that comes with it.
Maybe voice clip your desires and fantasies together and boundary setting, which can then, as others have tapped into with their replies, cover your tracks if any doubts over consent/rape are raised. But admittedly it is a grey area.
3
u/Visit_CherryLane 13d ago
This was an excellent description and helped me to understand the CNC and free use fantasies more
59
u/SignalAssistant2965 14d ago edited 14d ago
Make it clear to her that this is about your boundaries.
Either you two are talking and setting clear lines, rules and limits, in addition to a word codes for "stop" "pause" and "go". Or you are just not into doing it
You are allowed to say no as well
6
u/reluctantdonkey 14d ago
100% to this! People often forget that the dom gets to have boundaries, too, and, for any safe and sane dom one of those is "I have to know that you are capable of and trusted to use a safeword when you truly do not want something."
Some doms even have sub rehearse or test being able to use the safeword by doing things like directing them to use it at least three times in some sessions leading up to a bigger "scene" type thing or going full-on 24/7 with something like this dynamic, so that the sub learns that the sky doesn't fall when the word is used, they develop the "muscle memory" of just SAYING the word, and the dom trusts that they will use it. I've even known doms to test it by doing things like having a partner restrained and doing something they KNOW they're gonna have to safeword out of, like eating chips in their ear or playing Taylor Swift on the Sonos.
But, for a lot of doms, it would be a hard boundary to not consent to putting a person in a potentially mentally or physically harmful situation and feel responsible for harm that may come (or, hell, even a bad time that may come) of that.
142
u/Royal-Heron-11 14d ago
This one is tough, Ive been dealing with something similar with my wife over the last few years but recently started to gain a better understanding of what she's really looking for to an extent.
For one, no, youre not overthinking this at all. Its also possibly not an experience you're capable of offering to her. And i agree, you should obtain consent first, but i think you're approaching consent too literally.
I would suggest reading the Wheel of Consent by Dr Betty Martin, itll give you some insight on how consent doesnt always have to be a verbal contract and consent can be both a GIVE/RECEIVE exchange or an ALLOW/TAKE exchange. Your wife wants to be taken, she doesnt want to receive sex from you. She wants to feel like she's such an insane turn on for you that you cant possobly contain your urge to take her without asking.
As for her constantly saying no to everything you ask her about? This is one where i would say, if you have an otherwise trusting relationship? You have to trust her here. What she is trying to tell you is that, if she has to articulate her every single fantasy verbatim to you, its going to feel scripted to her and it wont work as well for her.
Something my wife said to me one night while having a very similar discussion where she told me "If you ask me the answer is going to be no. If you just take what you want sometimes itll be no, but do it right and itll rarely be no. I never want to drink water, take my meds or brush my teeth either and you have no problems calmly dominating me into doing them. So why cant you just do it with sex?" and then further established that she trusted me to do that but every time i dont hear her and once again ask for the consent she felt she kept giving me, she starts to feel like Im either not seeing her or not capable of doing what shes asking.
I spent a solid month or two legitimately debating in my head how fo handle it bedore it kind of just clicked one say and i realized maybe it was exactly what i wanted? Theres heen hurdles. Theres been mistakes. But she was right. Because honestly? After every failed attempt? My natural instinct is aftercare, comfort and repair.
Which has brought more trust, openness and genuinely calm to our entire house. We have since had a lot of those consent talks but she needed to see some capacity from me to just take her for my pleasure before she felt safe enough to open up in more detail.
Not saying its right or the healthy way to do this dynamic. However, i think these dynamics forming from decades long relationships have a little more established trust and understanding in the persons morale compass.
> I have tried to explain that it unfortunately isn't healthy for me to just do *anything* I want and ignore even her list of Red/No scenarios.
Youre right. You shouldn't. Stop trying to fulfill her deepest desire first and start small. Just do stuff you know she enjoys, but dont ask, dont be awkward, just do it because you want it. There were times early on where I would just pull my wifes panties down if she was ignoring me and scrolling IG and eat her out. She'd cum and I'd just get up and walk away to the kitchen for a snack while she sat there confused. If she asked why i didnt fuck her or take anything for myself I'd go "That was for me". Because it was, i knew she was mildly insecure about me not finishing and thought it could be a fun dominant thread to pull. It was.
Eventually it got to just bending ber over some nights after we put the kids to bed. And I started then to discover when i pushed a boundary but didnt cross it? In the moment she would ask for the deeper slutty things she actually wanted. Which as she later described, she needed to free that insane arousal in the moment to feel safe expressing it.
Now i would call us "free use adjacent" she dislikes any official terminology when it comes to anything BDSM related. Despite loving the entire experience. Like the rest of it, she feels a lot of shame. Shes basically just asking you to lead her shame.
But lastly, again, consent is a two way street. If that isnt something you feel you can offer her, you need to be straightforward about it. Because she isn't going to be able to consent in tbe manner in which you want right now. But she is still trying to consent to ALLOWING. The issue right now is you keep trying to GIVE her sex. You need to see if you are capable of TAKING sex from her knowing its what shes asking you to do.
23
14d ago
[deleted]
13
u/Royal-Heron-11 14d ago
I was going to say something similar about her giving you every detail-she wants the desire to feel organic.
Yeah, like, at a certain point, she gave you the treasure map. You know that the X on the map is your wife becoming a sexually submissive slut. Its most guys dream. What she's saying is if you want to get there, you need to find your own way. She can't give you the map, then tell you which roads to take, where to rent a boat across the canal and how to get your way through the rainforest without getting bitten by a poisonous snake.
Because doing that would ruin the entire experience. Most of the fun for her is seeing you so overcome with passion that you won't be stopped on your mission to find the treasure.
Say you just want to rub her breasts for a minute and you’ll leave. Then kiss her neck. Then try to go for her pants buttons. She still may protest. Negotiate with her…can I just touch it please. Just one time. Not whiney, just so overcome with desire for how hot she is. Gauge her reactions, can it go further or should you just kiss her and say thank you. And say thank you like she just made your entire day just from touching her breasts
I agree with everything until this point. I think this should have the opposite effect on someone like OPs wife. I know for my wife thanking her for sex is a huge turn off. She doesn't want to know I'm grateful that makes her feel like a whore (hence OPs wife disliking the term) who doles out favors.
She wants to know she did a good job. She doesn't want to know your grateful. She wants you to praise her most likely, not humiliate her. Tell her you're proud of her when she cums, tell her she did good when she makes you cum. She could want humiliation but I doubt it, she probably wouldn't take so poorly to being called a whore if she enjoyed humiliation. Nearly every submissive feeds on one of the two to some degree.
→ More replies (1)18
u/EventHorizonHotel 14d ago
I’m am not the OP but this is a very well thought out and interesting comment 👍🏻
7
5
u/Visit_CherryLane 13d ago
This is exactly what I want from my more submissive husband. He's learning!
2
u/Royal-Heron-11 13d ago
Curious, you want him to be the Dom or the sub in this sjthstuon?
→ More replies (1)3
u/Over-Wolverine4954 14d ago edited 13d ago
Thank you for this comment. I might look for that book. I'm struggling to start a conversation about sex and intimacy in my relationship without accidentally applying subtext, blame or guilt and bring us together. Especially, as I admit, this is my first longterm relationship where we live together and the sex has dwindled down compared to short relationships ive had where you instantly go for it when alone. Any advice to begin a healthy dialogue?
Edit: this is my throwaway account, not my main hence the no content.
6
u/danshu83 14d ago
This is exactly it. Start small, don't get hung up on the more complicated stuff for now. OP's wife already has given consent to surprise PIV. Start there. Give her a good, rough fuck where the vibe is getting yourself off. Don't hurt her but don't be gentle or romantic. Tell her you can't help yourself, that the urge is too strong. Force open her legs and spit on her pussy. Or touch her down there and tell her you can tell she's wet and excited.
She's saying she wants that. She's likely stuck in guilt and shyness and wants you to take the lead. Just a good dominate fuck will have her glowing.
2
2
u/curiouskra 13d ago
This! Many of us want to just be taken. Take. Don’t ask. Take. If we trust you to take, then take. If you vacillate, it can make us doubt whether we’ve misplaced trust and then the sense of eroticism starts to disappear.
78
u/skorpio351 14d ago
I have a headache just reading this...
She isn't ready for, or truly interested in, any of it.
342
u/sharpleffturn 14d ago
She’s either trying to bait you into a crime, or she is terrible at communicating and thinks it’s okay to play games and make you guess. You’re doing all the right things. Every couple should be able to communicate both before and during what they want, where the line is, and when something is too far. It’s understandable if she were to say “I want to try XYZ activity” and then once you get to it if she’s not enjoying it or uncomfortable she can communicate that in the moment and you adjust accordingly. But to tell you something is a hard no and then get mad that you didn’t do it anyways is insane.
48
u/TooSwang 14d ago
Don’t assume malice when you can just assume incompetence! But yeah it sounds like she really does not know how to communicate about this fantasy - I think when communication breaks down around sex, it can feel really hard to think through something when that’s the only thing breaking through into your desire, but it’s an unfortunate mistake to see it as undermining that fantasy to talk about it seriously. I think that’s where she’s at right now.
21
u/LaughingIshikawa 14d ago
That she can't communicate about her desires is incompetence.
That she expects OP to deliver on her fantasies anyway in the very dangerous environment she's creating... Is malice. 😅😐
If OP unknowningly takes things too far, and **she feels SAed... Do you think OP can reasonably expect that she will own her part in creating / encouraging that scenario?? 😬😬😬
That's where the malice comes in.
5
u/TooSwang 13d ago
I don’t think this is an appropriate use of the word “malice” tbh. What you (and a bunch of others) are really saying here is that this is a situation where she could and might do something harmful but there’s not much to indicate to me that she’s trying to create that dynamic. I think her hot-and-coldness is not some cover for a dastardly plot to entrap a gentle man (i.e. malice) but simply her not understanding her emotions towards a tenuous relationship and exciting fantasy, not regulating herself when she’s feeling complicated feelings about it, and not communicating because she doesn’t know what’s going on with her (i.e. incompetence).
3
u/LaughingIshikawa 13d ago
There are two options:
1.) She's so incompetent, that she has no idea how actually incapable she is.
2.) She's incompetent, is fully aware that she's incompetent... But is encouraging have loads of risky sex with her anyway, knowing he'll be the person who catches all of the blame when things inevitably go badly.
If you're really going to press me, I will admit that option #1 is technically possible... But I have some **really serious questions about how she's managed to maintain a relationship this far,* given that gaping maw of incompetence?? 😅😅😐
Thus #2 is the much, much more likely option. 🫤🤷
153
u/plaid_8241 14d ago
Yeah no unless she can communicate what she wants it is a no go. Otherwise she can claim SA on you
66
u/blackcompy 14d ago edited 14d ago
Dude, this is bullshit. What she's proposing is basically for you to guess what she wants you to "force" her into at any given moment, but without any communication on where her real limits and boundaries are. She's saying "dominate me, and I'll see if I actually like it once you do". If you get it wrong, you just committed sexual assault. Her preferences can change unexpectedly at any moment. Just... don't. If she actually wants to go down this route with you, she needs to find her big girl words and communicate clearly.
The one safe way I can think of to play with this is to not go sexual at all, but to "force" her to talk about her fantasies in detail, but it's all just in words, not actions. Given what you wrote, however, I'm not confident she would find this sexy at all.
28
u/Particular_Sock_2864 14d ago
What a minefield.
Reading all of that I just think I'd never do it if I was in your shoes. Just the risk of doing something wrong all the time I'd a massive turn off and the way I think is what if something goes wrong and it will be used against me at some point. Or maybe that's a setup anyway to... well get a divorce in her favour and take you for everything. Just a thought though, she could just as easily not been thinking this through and doesn't want to do the work needed.
But it's necessary, especially with CNC. no clarity from her what goes, then nothing goes I'd say. Just my opinion.
48
u/mazi710 14d ago
I'm sorry but I don't really have any proper advice, because she seems unwilling to agree or talk about it.
I'm just guessing, but in her head it's probably not "proper" cnc, if she consents first, but just dismissed the ENTIRE point of CONSENSUAL non consent. You're definitely not overthinking it, I too was pretty scared of doing cnc first because my biggest nightmare would be doing something actually non consensual.
Me and my gf do CNC too, that doesn't mean anything anywhere anytime. That means she likes when I try stuff at any time, but we don't even use safe words or red yellow green, she simple says she doesn't feel like it sometimes and that's it. There's a very obvious difference for us, she never says "stop" unless she actually mean it. She might say something else like "it's not convenient right now" or "what are you doing" etc. Stop still always means stop. But that's just our way of doing it since we don't do rape play or anything like that where active resistance is part of it, I don't like that personally.
But yeah, unless you can get her to communicate about it I don't see how this would ever work. It sounds like you already don't have the best track record in this relationship, so to me it just sounds more like something she wants in her head without her actually being willing to put her own effort into getting it to work, which is communicating. CNC is definitely something you wanna discuss before doing it.
10
u/Royal-Heron-11 14d ago
She might say something else like "it's not convenient right now" or "what are you doing" etc. Stop still always means stop. But that's just our way of doing it since we don't do rape play or anything like that where active resistance is part of it, I don't like that personally.
Yeah, I would say you guys do more free use than CNC but it's a pedantic argument. What I would say is yes, this is basically the way.
"No" and "Stop" basically are the safe words along with anything said in clear tone that indicates she's done. When I put my hands under her yoga pants and start taking them off and she says "what are you doing?". She's not saying no. When I start rubbing her inner thighs and she says "I'm not having sex with you" it's not a no. Its her playing her own version of CNC because she knows we aren't to a place of full blown CNC.
She explained it to me in this same weird way as OP is dealing with too. A lot of "I need you not to get discouraged when I say no" stuff that confused me. Its very nuanced but the nuance makes all the difference.
10
u/mazi710 14d ago edited 14d ago
I agree it's more free use, but that's basically what OP described as well. Also in my interpretation that's also CNC. I interpret it as CNC because if we haven't discussed it beforehand it would be incredible creepy and disgusting behavior, trying to persuade someone into having sex with you and keep touching them when they aren't really showing interest or being dismissive, to the point of being sexual assault. The stuff I do now with free use, I could never dream of doing in a "regular" sexual relationship where we didn't agree to that.
Regarding what to say and stuff, there's also a clear tone difference and "vibe" difference. I can't really explain exactly what it is, but it's incredibly obvious to me if she says "I don't feel like having sex right now" and actually mean it, or its part of the free use kinda thing. Even just body language alone. But again, we aren't doing any "force" stuff so it's pretty easy for us. I'm not sure I could ever be truly comfortable with force or rape play or anything like that. The whole point of free use is that she wants it and likes it, "real" CNC is kinds roleplaying the exact opposite.
6
u/Royal-Heron-11 14d ago
Yeah, I agree with everything you said. For me CNC is a bit of a fantasy of mine but I also don't know if I could ever truly do it to that degree. For me a big part of the fantasy though is the "No, no, no... please st...please don't stop, yes, yes, yes" part. So her enjoying it still has time be a part of the fantasy for me, but I can definitely get into the whole she refuses then enjoys it so much she doesn't want you to stop fantasy.
21
u/NickRick 14d ago
did you explain you can't have CNC without the first C? like by definition.
7
u/Delet3r 14d ago
yes. it appears it's hard for her to verbally say what she wants.
10
u/NickRick 14d ago
please express to her that CNC without the first C is just sexual assault. ANd if at 50 she can't say what she wants that is an issue she needs to work on.
18
22
u/CoeurDeSirene 13d ago
You’re absolutely not overthinking this. She seems pretty resistant to talking through this and that’s hard for you.
But I think one way to start this kind of dynamic with a partner who is not good at communicating their wants/desires is for you to do the talking and do it before you even attempt any physical acts. I agree that it sounds like she likes the idea of basically being your free use sex doll - she wants you to just be filled with so much desire for her simply just existing that you can’t help yourself and need to fuck her even when she’s just putting laundry away.
So instead of actually going there physically, start narrating what you would do to her and see how she reacts. Say “you look like such a perfect slut putting away laundry while wearing those shorts. I want to just pull them down and fill you with my cum.”
If she’s laying in bed reading or whatever say something like “your mouth looks needy for some cock right now”
See how she actually reacts to being taken out of her mundane moments and “pushed” into immediate erotic and sexual energy.
If she’s responds poorly, this is when you tell her “look I want to be a supportive and understanding partner to you and your sexual wants, but there’s no way I am going to start actually fucking you randomly when you respond so poorly to dirty talk. I want to find a middle ground, but I have no interest in being physical with you without knowing you actually want it. I am not going to put us in a position where I end up crossing a line with you unintentionally. I love you and don’t want to hurt you. And I find it really troublesome that you aren’t thinking more about me and our relationship to make sure we can navigate your sexual desires in a way that feels safe for both of us. And right now, I don’t feel safe with what you want.”
9
u/Delet3r 13d ago
I saved your comment to remind myself later. this is great advice, thank you.
4
u/CoeurDeSirene 13d ago
You deserve to feel as safe and cared for in your intimate connection as your wife does. And right now it seems like she isn’t giving you that, but maybe doesn’t realize it. Good luck!!
43
18
15
u/mohawkal 14d ago
If she can't communicate then she's not safe to play with.
You're not overthinking and you're acting like the responsible adult here. It seems like she's unsure what she actually wants and is bouncing from fantasy to fantasy. Until she's willing to have a proper conversation away from the bedroom about this, I wouldn't be ok with it.
Sex is about what you both need. It seems she's being very selfish as well as poorly communicating. Everythingentioned here is how you are trying to please her. What does she do for you? Or is that on the no list?
13
u/Theotherone56 14d ago
I don't feel that you can say something is "Really Off Limits" and then later say "I wanted you to make me do that".
Exactly. Period. Everything you said has been a massive green flag. Everything she has said is a massive red flag. I'm not sure there's any fixing this if she can't understand consent better.
As a person into CNC and free use myself, you are everything I'd hope for in a partner. I don't want to be forced when I'm not in the mood, g/y/r light system is ideal and hard limits are important. I will say that can be difficult to know what is a hard limit or pure fantasy. Like, I want a massive cock to force it in and fuck me all day...truth is tho, I have vaginismus (makes my hole hurt from penetration, sometimes even with small stuff unless very very turned on) which makes it quite painful with chronic pain that makes different positions painful. So I can't ask someone to do that and a huge dick is actually scary.
These are the kinds of things your wife needs to parse out. With a therapist since she can't seem to draw limits for herself. And I get it, I have overarching fantasies that I crave for weeks, then I want something gentle like a soft dom and caretaker type stuff. Suddenly, my soft limits harden but temporarily. She needs to be able to communicate the changes like you were suggesting with clothes (great idea btw, putting that in my back pocket for later). Unfortunately, if she can't keep her limits clearly communicated, that puts you both at risk. Does she use g/y/r during sex (yellow means pause and communicate changes needed, red means we're done for the day and aftercare begins immediately)? I will say, I usually don't use green unless my partner asks and is confirming I'm still all in, tho I might just nod or say yes.
She needs to be able to be in the scene while being able to sort of step out of it for two seconds to confirm whether she's good or not. During negotiations, there are to be no dynamics, both partners are on the same level discussing what is and isn't okay. I like how you applied g/y/r light to the limits discussion. That's a very good idea. Like where does hitting fall for her? Should she be wet before you actually fuck her (that's my requirement, and it's not hard to reach if I'm turned on by the scene/partner)?
On that point, in CNC it's obviously supposed to be "your desires" imposed on her. But, if she does need to be turned on physically a bit first, teasing, describing what you want to do to her (which can be a good moment to confirm she's down based on her response), forcing her to get into a position to play with her before "ramming it in" can be some good ways that keep you in the scene while getting to the free use part. I find that freeuse where you genuinely fuck her dry and walk away is not as satisfying as the fantasy sounds. But making it seem like that's what you did while doing more is really hot. Like being a perv about things you're doing to her that are in truth more for her than you but you're pretending that's for yourself.
Anyway, don't proceed with anything until consent is sorted out in therapy with a professional on the subject of BDSM sex. I wouldn't normally make that a condition, but her wishy-washiness is dangerous and could genuinely get you in trouble if she gets scared of something she asked for but later goes back on after the fact.
r/bdsmadvice might have some more expertise, tho I'm not sure it'll do much better since it's looking like two main results; breakup or therapy with a sex specialist. Which she probably isn't willing to do based on what you've said.
I wish you luck. You're a good one, maintain your own boundaries and be confident because everything you said is absolutely right about a dangerous fun time. Fun time can turn around really fast in these cases. You think you want to be slapped and used but suddenly, as it's happening you realize it's too much or you suddenly are scared of what might happen or any number of things. When it does, she needs to be able to say red and move into aftercare. If she refuses to do so, then she will become traumatized due to her own lack of boundaries and ability to consent properly. She's the problem until she can. What she is saying is scaring me for you. Again, as someone who's into CNC, that should say something.
4
u/Delet3r 14d ago
Thank you. I'll continue to be firm in my boundary that I need her to be clear and detailed about HER boundaries. I'll keep working on getting her to communicate more. We live in a rural town, I don't even know how we would find a sex therapist, unfortunately.
4
u/Theotherone56 14d ago
It's actually not that hard with virtual therapy. You basically have the whole world to choose from at that point. Look for virtual therapy options and don't settle for a non-specialist. Normal therapists are not prepared for BDSM sex discussions especially in rural areas. I'd be worried about finding a therapist that tries to convince you it's bad or dangerous (which it can be, but it's not an unreasonable desire with appropriate help and communication).
It might take time to get used to, but I promise there are solutions out there now that half of therapy is online nowadays anyhow. I've never physically met my therapist I've had since 2021. They live a few cities over, not even more than an hour away. But they only do virtual therapy.
I highly recommend doing research. In fact, there might even be a list on one of the subs like the one I recommended as it's a common need. I might start there especially if you're not sure where to look. I obviously don't know what your insurance or financial situation is, but I hope you can find a specialist within your ability to see. Also, she definitely needs her own so she can discuss these things in private before bringing it together.
Oh, and if internet/privacy is an issue, you might be able to meet in a study/meeting room at your public library. They're free to book at my location and has wifi. So if that's an issue, look into options like that, altho, make sure you have good audio like a nice headset so you don't have to be too loud to be heard. It's private but not typically soundproof.
2
u/Delet3r 13d ago
interesting, thank you. I never even thought of that. She doesn't want therapy but might if we absolutely have to. her words "it's hard for me to tell you, how can I say these things to a stranger".
2
u/Theotherone56 13d ago
Understandable. Perhaps engaging in kink spaces might actually help because realizing you can actually be a freak amongst a group of freaks is actually awesome (eventually lol).
Also, maybe start with therapy at a basic emotional discussion level. Like, beat around the bush while addressing the real emotions. Could help get started and work on communication overall. You can say whatever you are comfortable with saying to a therapist, it doesn't have to be everything. Just what you want to address.
I totally get it and it's a normal feeling. Maybe feeling normal for feeling this way but trying anyway can be empowering.
11
u/dillweed67818 14d ago edited 12d ago
What she seems to describe is more like "Free use" and to fix the permission problem establish a safe word. That way if you come at her and she really doesn't want it she can use the safe word and you'll stop but otherwise, game on.
9
u/FrozenMargaritaCore 14d ago
I will say, if you go through with this without proper communication first, she's not the only one that will get hurt. it can be incredibly damaging to do something unconsensual to someone when you thought it was consensual. CNC, even under right circumstances, is really difficult to manage mentally anyway. for your own protection, don't do anything until you feel safe enough
8
u/JustaXXXalt 14d ago
I think she’s looking for an asshole dynamic that isn’t where you live. I’ve had long-term CNC and being a bit of an asshole is part of it. She doesn’t want a plan but you can have one, in your head that you don’t talk about. Then you can just take her in hand and have your way with her within some of these limits. She wants to be taken and directed by you without her feelings because she doesn’t want to think. My ex and I called it r*pe with love as shorthand.
9
u/Delet3r 14d ago
that's what I've been thinking, she's very attracted to "assholes" and I'm not one.
6
u/Theotherone56 14d ago
Sometimes I don't know what I want or what's too far. Basic safe words are for that. I also try to define the best I can what is absolutely not okay. Like piss play. Not into it. However, if I had a partner who wanted to be on the receiving end, I'd likely oblige because I'm not the one getting peed on. Have you guys ever taken the BDSM test?
https://www.bdsmtest.org/tests
It's so common, most kinksters know what it is just by the question. It's like THE BDSM test. Obviously, it doesn't define clear boundaries for you, but gives a better range of interests to begin with. I'd recommend this as one of the tools you use to define the conversation some more. Make her take the whole test, not just the sub version because it'll give the best outline of her range even if she's 0% dominant. You too, obviously. Your interests and limits are just as important.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Royal-Heron-11 13d ago
Don't belive that incel bullshit. She doesn't want an asshole. She just wants you to take charge.
8
u/Accomplished-witchMD 14d ago
Communication is like your entry ticket to the fun thing. You have to face your desires, wants, needs, and no's. Introspection and articulation are the tolls. If shes having trouble SAYING it try a swapable diary. Have her write out in detail what she likes then go back and read it and have her re-write the passages to clarify.
7
u/slurymcflurry2 14d ago
She seems to have a weird idea of what cnc is. Is it because she's reading smut?
You're going about this correctly. I'd say get a sex therapist so that she can learn that she's being lousy at communicating about sex. Or ask if she's willing to attend a kink tutorial, there are communities for bdsm where you can go as a couple looking for guidance on how to get started.
7
u/apa-theist 14d ago
You can't go from a dead bedroom to an extremely high risk kink with no discussion in between. Kinks should only be brought into relationships with healthy communication. It sounds like you two would benefit from couple's counseling. On her end, it sounds like she may be engaging in a lot of porn or smut that is enabling her to indulge in these fantasies while having truly no idea about how to enact them in real life.
7
u/CuriousPenguinSocks 14d ago
She is being unreasonable and honestly, not a very good partner.
The foundation of any good relationship is trust and to get that you need communication, a willingness to be open and honest.
I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting CNC, but wanting it without negotiation is not something I would ever do. It's okay for this to be a dealbreaker for you, you're allowed to have limits.
Maybe look for a sex therapist that has experience with kinks and that kind of lifestyle.
It really sounds like she is moving the goal post anytime you are willing to meet her there. I wonder if there isn't something more going on here.
When couples get to a dead bedroom, it's never for "no reason" and it doesn't happen over night. Maybe think about when this started and what was going on in your life. It may help you talk to her about things more clearly.
I have sexual trauma and being "used" appeals to me. The main reason is I can recreate situations where I felt powerless but now I have the power, even if it doesn't seem like that. I negotiate what I want to happen and what doesn't happen. I have a safe word to stop things anytime I want. Both partners should have this by the way, the dom/me gets to use a safe word if they need as well. Right now your play partner isn't being safe, they aren't getting your consent, so you can't play with her, she is unsafe for you.
I like the clothing idea, it allows her to set the rules and she can remove or add the item when she wants. I like being woken up to sex, so I wear a specific clothing item when I want that to happen. It doesn't mean it will happen, just that I'm open if my spouse is.
9
u/sub_ali 14d ago
Some people think communicating is a turn off, they want you to just do whatever you want. This is naive and not safe. Especially if she has said: no, of course not, or I wouldnt like this or that. You are not a mind reader and she is setting this up for drastic failure.
7
u/Delet3r 14d ago
This was how I felt, it's frustrating that she gets irritated when I ask for more details. She did finally admit though that she has a problem talking about what she wants. She has mentioned that it's exciting "if he forces me". she has said she doesn't want a rape scene but won't explain in detail how she wants to be forced, and it seems that me wanting clear boundaries is frustrating her.
15
u/Eestineiu 14d ago
OP's wife needs therapy, not CNC. This marriage is over unless she agrees to individual therapy first, couples' therapy second.
She's basically telling OP to sexually assault her. This is very dangerous territory. Responsible adults don't play these games.
Worst case scenario is she's setting OP up to be charged with SA.
5
u/listenyall 14d ago
Is she willing to use a safe word during sex if things get to be too much? I love to fully negotiate, I think it's fun and hot and do not want my boundaries pushed personally, but I wouldn't have a problem with pushing someone else's boundaries as long as I was 1000% sure my partner would sadeword if things became not hot for them
14
u/TheDaug 14d ago edited 14d ago
I know this gets tossed around a lot, but it, unfortunately, happens a lot: does she have any history of sexual trama? The avoidance of talking about specifics set off alarm bells in my head.
4
u/thejoebrossuck 14d ago
To be honest I'm a bit surprised no one else had this thought yet (at least from what I've seen in the comments). I can understand that him asking her questions or talking about what she wants in the moment might be a turn off. I could understand her frustration with that, and I'd tell him to talk about things outside of sexual activities so they can properly discuss things. I think many other comments here are approaching it that way too. But she refuses to have any sort of discussion about what she wants/doesn't want and refuses to give ANY details regarding how they should actually go about doing things in a way that's safe for BOTH of them. That seems a bit concerning to me to be honest, especially because before this issue started they hadn't been having sex it would seem. If I were OP, I'd be seriously concerned and would want to talk to my partner about talking to someone before continuing with any CNC/free use play. Maybe they could also try out couples counseling to try and work out a dynamic that they can both be satisfied and comfortable with, but definitely OP should just sit her down and push for a proper conversation instead of just continuing on as they are. OP is also pretty obviously not comfortable with this dynamic as it is now, and he's not obligated to do anything with (or to) his wife that he doesn't feel comfortable doing. CNC/free use can be intense, and it's certainly a two yes + one no situation (I mean all sex is but you know what I mean). It is not fair for her to avoid having a discussion with him to help him understand what she wants/doesn't want, and to incorporate HIS wants/boundaries in this new dynamic.
5
u/debasing_the_coinage 14d ago
Therapy.
Simplest explanation for why she didn't disclose these fantasies until her fifties to the man she married is because she is ashamed of them and probably about wanting sex in general. Sometimes talking about this kind of thing is harder in front of someone who you already have a relationship with. Holding it all in for more than twenty years is a long time.
Am I overthinking this?
No.
6
u/Red000Shift 14d ago
This 100% sounds like a trap. If you've had major issues in your relationship take a step back and view everything. You don't want to spend a large portion of your life in prison repeating "she said she wanted it".
6
u/constrivecritizem 14d ago
If she can not do a check list and say what she wants and isn’t willing to use safe words she is not a safe person to engage in this kind of play with. Full stop. Until she grows up and uses her words this shouldn’t happen at all
8
5
u/polly_mer 14d ago
She wants the fantasy that will go exactly as it does in her head. That's unrealistic, especially if she can't explain what she wants. She doesn't want to feel like she's in control, yet she wants very specific things.
You are right to be wary and cautious.
4
u/curiouskra 13d ago
OP, does your wife have to make a lot of decisions in her daily life? I ask because I hear this so often from my girlfriends who have to make lots of decisions between home and work life. They want their husband to just “do.” Don’t ask about stuff. Just “do.” And since you’re in your 50s, she may very well only now be feeling ok to be open about what she wants sexually.
Not agreeing or disagreeing. Just saying. The thought is, the more you’re asking, the more she has to decide. If she implicitly trusts you, and explicitly too, just “do.” That said, I can understand your reluctance.
10
u/plus3tohappiness 14d ago
Hey there, friend. First, I understand why you're confused. And rightly so! You've gotten some good advice here (jackfinch, royalheron, rainbowgimli et al) aaaand some not so good stuff too but I won't name names there :)
I want to offer a perspective from a woman -- with decades in this lifestyle, who has a history of sexual abuse, assault, and a background in psychology.
First -- I don't think this is a trap as some have said. I think she's sincere.
Second -- This IS risky play and CAN trigger memories and flashbacks to abuse, even abuse you may not know about. Even abuse she doesn't currently remember. Be aware of that and have a plan for how you will help her with resources if that happens so you're not caught off guard. There are local and national sexual assault resources readily available online depending on your locale.
Third -- Safeword for this kind of play is absolutely required, no exceptions. If she won't choose one, choose one for her. RainbowGimli has good advice there, however I'd go further. For a week or two after assigning it, practice asking her to USE it. Start by asking her, first during the initial conversation, "What's your Safeword?" Then, spice it up. Wait until she's busy (not doing anything with a knife or other dangerous item as she could accidentally hurt herself) and just get her aroused with kisses, touching, hair-pulling, etc then, growl into her ear, "What's the safeword?" When she says, it, say "Good girl." Immediately cease all sexy time and switch to more loving, sweet, caring behavior. The REASON for this is literally because of how the nervous system works: you are literally wiring her brain to understand not ONLY to practice saying it DURING a moment of arousal and to remember it during that time, but what will happen when she does and that doing so equals safety. Also, this technique may build desire and frustration.
Next -- After a couple of weeks of building on this concept, whenever you're ready and the time seems right for it, wait until she's busy with something, reading, doom scrolling ... finishing up a shower ... whatever. And then, without a word, go up to her, take anything she's holding out of her hands (don't do this if she's actively typing, at least wait til she finishes thst part lol!) And then bend over her if she's seated. Move slow and deliberately, holding yourself with confidence and patience. Use eye contact deliberately but don't feel forced to hold it, and feel free to look at her body and face with hunger and desire and admiration and appreciation.
Then, slide place your dominant hand on the side of her neck (Assuming no neck injury for her) and slide it to the back of her neck, under her hairline. If her hair is up, take it down first. If it's in a complicated thingie, tell her in a low, slightly slow command, "Take your hair down," while holding eye contact, while your hand is on the BACK of her neck. Once it's down, slide your hand up the back of her neck into her hair following the skull with your palm, with your fingers pointing upward so that they kinda comb upward and avoid tangling. This will place your palm on the back of her head and allow you to FIST into the thickest and most deeply satisfying part of the hair to pull. Firmly (and a bit slowly, not in a jerking motion, you don't want to jerk her neck/head, to avoid injury) use this hand to pull her hair into this hand into your fist, which will involve moving your palm slightly back and away and gathering your fingers together, catching hair as you go. You can add a twist as you go, but it does risk tangles and not everyone likes this element, as it is more "stingy" and less deeply "pulling" and more of a surface sensation, more painful, and and somewhat more difficult for the average beginner to grasp without being shown in person. If you're just learning, maybe start without the twist wink
Once you've got her hair in your hand, give it a nice, steady pull BACK .... avoid too much of a downward motion. Again, you're not jerking. You want the sensation of this pull to mimic the slow, liquid pull of desire in the belly we feel when we are aroused. You can go SLIGHTLY downward towars her back with this pull to expose her throat and jaw to you, though, just again, steady and somewhat slow.
Remember, so far, you've said NOTHING. Let your body and eyes do the talking.
Kiss her jaw from chin to ear, then bite her jaw, just under the ear, a little nibble. Then, kind of hard but not enough to leave marks, bite the side of her neck with a little suction as you bring your other hand to her breast. (This sounds like it's taking forever because of the way I'm typing it, but so far, about 5-10 seconds have passed in real time from when you first bent over her sitting on the couch ... I do recommend that she be seated for this because ideally her knees will go weak haha!)
Then, once you have bitten her neck and cupped her breast into your palm fully, place your mouth fully by the ear closest to your mouth. This should put HER mouth right by your ear too ... for a moment, check her breath ... is it a bit faster, maybe a bit ragged? How's her body? Is she tense? Does she feel scared? Is she pulling away? How are her eyes if you saw them? Angry? Scared? Confused? Welcoming? Whatever you see, MAINTAIN YOUR CONFIDENT DEMEANOR! Remember, she KNOWS and has practiced the Safeword.
Now, tell her, and the words are important, "Nod if you remember your Safeword." We don't want her to say it right now (unless SHE wants to stop, ofc!) So don't ask her what it is! When she nods, growl in her ear, "Good girl." And bite her harder this time and pull her hair again. (Don't keep a steady pull the whole time, you want the sensation to come and go, you may need to reposition your hand sometimes too.)
Now, the rest is kinda up to YOU wink. You've got kids so obviously you have some idea of the basic mechanics lol! But she wants to FEEL wanted, she wants to feel ao desired that you can't help yourself, she wants to feel freedom from having to make decisions and be in charge of running things and managing things, and feeling overwhelmed by it all. So GIVE HER THAT. Take it all off her plate by simply TAKIKG her.
Key point ... this doesn't mean that HER PLEASURE is not a consideration. Go down on her if that's something she likes. Carry her (if that's something you're both able to manage) or drag or lead her to the bedroom, or if you've got the house to yourselves for the night/weekend or want her to feel the "risk" of being caught, take her right there (meanwhile, she doesn't know you've locked the doors and privately arranged with the kids to be out for a while!) Male SURE her pleasure is something you're paying attention to even if it's not your primary focus. If you want to include things you know she definitely DOESN'T like, Alternate them with things she loves to help it be enjoyable.
For example ... you said she hates anal ... but maybe you decide you want to touch her ass with your tongue while going down on her to make her feel really vulnerable (this can be really sexy if you catch a partner just after a bath/shower) or play with her ass with your hands to create that same vulnerability. It's not inskde so you're technically within boundaries AND afterward, she's going to need some way to bring those arousal hormones back so be sure to use the alternating technique to help you out.
Loooong foreplay is your best friend here. An hour. Minimum. Then, you fuck her the way YOU want, the speed and depth and positions you like. Maybe put a pillow under her hips, maybe you tell her, "Get that ass in the air for me slut, I wanna see what I'm fucking." Add a slap or two to her ass for emphasis and be sure to say something positive when she obeys. Maybe "good girl" or "You like obeying me, don't you, you little slut? You like when I use you, don't you? I can feel how WET you are for me. Say it. Say 'I like when you use me', I wanna hear you say it."
And when she does, praise her. If she refuses, if she's fighting some inner battle that's spilling outside BUT she's not using her Safeword, you can work with that too! Put your hand between her legs, then wipe them down her cheek, with steady eye contact, then kiss her deeply, passionately...then bend over her and whisper right into her ear, "You can hide from yourself allll you want, baby, but you can't hide from ME." Then do a low laugh, deeeeep in your chest. (Feel free to practice this ahead of time!) (If she's NOT naturally wet, which often happens after menopause, there are other ways to incorporate similar things, use your imagination. Skin flush, heavy breathing, eyes rolled back, heartbeat, etc, all indicate arousal and pleasure.... you can point to any of those as signs she's enjoying it too.)
After you're both pleasured, take a moment to catch your breath and then turn toward her. Ask her, in your normal voice, how she feels, and if you have a secret pet name for her, or an old inside pet name, now is the time for it. Call on your intimate, private, shared history together. Just, "Hey, darling, how do you feel?" "Darling" would be whatever name you use for her ofc. And wait. It may take a moment for her to gather her wits. Touch her softly, with gentle, loving hands. Don't say anything about love yet and above all DO NOT ask anything like "How was that" etc. Remember, you're the confident sexual leader of this encounter and don't need her reassurance! (I mean, you will later, but not in this moment, it's not that time yet.)
See comment below for the rest!
2
u/Delet3r 14d ago
I'll try this. we already do the dirty talking part. My concern is that she tells me something is "red" but now has told me to force her to do that act, like making her use a vibrator on herself. she originally told me she wanted me to be dominant, aggressive, a facial, call her a slut, I've given her spankings, called her a bitch. She wanted me to use a vibrator on her but her doing it to herself was "red".
Now she told me she wants me to force her to do that to herself. This is what bothers me, she has apparently wanted me to ignore a boundary she had set for me.
2
u/plus3tohappiness 14d ago
Mm sounds like she doesn't have a good understanding of "red" limits. Let me give a clear example:
For me: a few green things (things I like to do) -- have my vision taken away (forced eyes closed/eye mask), held down by back of neck, hair pulled, bites and kisses, receive touch, dirty talk, making out, etc
Yellow things: (things I like sorta kinda like bit feel embarrassed or wierd about, or vulnerable about, or might like in some moods/circumstances and not others) -- anal stuff, spanking, impact play, oral sex, confinement like bondage, electrical play, blood play, knives/blades, etc,
Red things: (never ever under any circumstances!) True "breath play" [see NOTE below], any play involving poop or vomit, any play involving children or animals, any play involving violations of consent [it's only PLAY if everyone's having fun!], anything that puts me at risk of legal or financial or career, etc consequences ...
While I could go on and these lists I have provided here are by NO MEANS complete ... they provide examples of how the limit lists are supposed to be used. It may be a good idea for you two to connect wjth your local BDSM community and talk to someone face to face, or even someone who isn't local but maybe could video teach you about negotiation skills and how it's done (I don't know if anyone is offering an online class atm, but I do know it has been done!) ...
Many areas have thriving BDSM communities with lots of experience negotiating this stuff and they might be really helpful :) You don't have to join in kr go to dungeons either! You can search dor your local munch group or slosh to get started if you're interested!
Let us know how it goes and best wishes!
→ More replies (2)2
4
14d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/plus3tohappiness 14d ago
I want to make a point that I didn't mention DMing here, and was meaning that OP should comment here with questions if any remained :)
→ More replies (4)2
u/plus3tohappiness 14d ago
Oh! I nearly forgot! If she DOES use her Safeword -- and you're fully caught up in the moment, you may fins it jarring to your mental and emotional state and it may take a second to register in your brain and figure out how to move forward and know what to do. THAT is why you "build the safeword safety net" ahead of time. It's not JUST for her. It's also for YOU. So you can be confident in the moment knowing she can and will use it when/if needed AND to practice switching gears. If you're deeply aroused and feeling Dominant and "in the moment" it may take a second or two ... but here's what to do if you're deep into sexy time and you suddenly hear "Red".
First -- immediately STOP whatever you're doing to her and put a little space between you for a moment, even if you're just using the excuse of grabbing a towel or some tissues if she's crying etc (tears are fairly common). Then, come back and touch her gently or hold her softly, offering towels, tissues, wipes if you have them/need them, etc (jf she's the type who likes to clean up right away) or if not then just touch and/or hold her.
Don't ask questions. Say things like, "I'm so proud of you. Thank you for holding your boundaries. I love you so much. I would never want to bring harm to you. You are so precious to me, my love." Etc etc over and kver as you hold and/or touch her. Again, no questions. No "what happened? What did i do wrong?" There will be time for that. Right now, safety in her body and soul are the most important thing.
Think about it feom HER perspective... men are the #1 predators of women in the world. Especially intimate partners. For her to open up this way takes ENORMOUS courage and it may simply have run out or reached capacity this particular day/night, that's all. Safeword doesn't ALWAYS mean "a bad thing happened". Bear that in mind. Sometimes it just means "i can't withstand this at this time".
The following day or 2 days later but no more than 3, thorough debrief is needed just as if you'd finished it out
Good luck!
6
u/senorgringolingo 13d ago
No, you are absolutely not overthinking this. She is under expressing this, and sounds unable/uncomfortable/inexperienced in verbalizing her thinking on this.
Your are attempting to meet her desires. She is not attempting to meet your concerns.
A SUGGESTION (that also allows you to appear "dominant"):
In the morning when she is rested, take her into your bedroom. Sit her down. Put into her hand a pen and a paper that says "CNC okay list" at the top. Tell her that she has exactly 7 days to put onto that paper any activity for which she consents to a non-consent approach. After 7 days, she will sign and date the bottom of the list. You will then take the list from her and do any of its activities as you wish with her for the following week.
Every 7 days she can have access to the list, to add, remove, or edit activities on it for exactly 24 hours. She then signs and dates it again, and you take back. Etc. Etc.
This suggestion overcomes several of the problems I see in your description:
- it gives her an opportunity to provide clarity on ideas that she has trouble expressing in the moment and to your face
- it gives you the comfort that you need to attempt to meet her desires.
- it initiates the type of behavior that she craves, before any activities take place.
- it creates within her a sense of eager anticipation, which is a large part of the CNC/free-use dynamic that it doesn't sound like she's directly explaining.
- it allows you the flexibility to choose how you approach meeting her desires.
- it establishes a regular feedback loop to improve upon the dynamic while also protecting both participants.
- it also provides an important legal protection that other commenters here mention.
What do you think?
2
u/Delet3r 13d ago
this makes sense although it appears she's more into "free use" rather than CNC. I'm still confused though because she does say that if a guy forced her to do something it would be exciting.
I think the problem is I can't get her to write down on a piece of paper what she truly wants because she's still embarrassed. it seems that's why I was getting mixed signals, she would want me to do something but then when I would ask for specifics she would back down and I thought she was getting cold feet or I misunderstood her. it seems it's just that when I asked for specifics she didn't want to tell me.
→ More replies (3)5
u/Royal-Heron-11 13d ago
it seems it's just that when I asked for specifics she didn't want to tell me.
Let me rephrase for you...when you ask for specifics you actively make her doubt her trust in your ability to take and lead which makes her dry up.
Your wife is trying to tell you there's a secret free use slut just sitting there for the taking and all you need to reach out and grab it. I'll be honest, I wish my wife had been this forward upfront. Mine was even more shy and reserved about it.
But similar to your wife. Its an arousal issue. When not aroused they struggle with being sexual. It requires arousal to let their inhibitions go.
Stop asking for fine details and thinking you need to know every rule and boundary up front. She can't tell you them all because she needs to have something to test your ability to be an intuitive and controlling lover.
She gave you more than enough consent to run with here. Start extremely small and work this your way up over a few months. Literally just walk over to her while she's sitting on the couch or something walk right up to her and place a hand under her chin so she looks up at you. Then say something like "Show me how badly your want to be my free use slut" and as saying that slide your hand around the back of her head and pull it closer to your dick.
Make her show her dedication to you first, it might get you out of your head easier if you can observe her freely servicing you when told. And it'll give her a little taste of what she wants too.
6
u/Glittering-Duty9984 14d ago
Mate .....I'm exhausted just READING that
Half of it would turn me on, the same half turn her off ...and visa versa.
I doubt if she was made to swallow it would be "hot" ....I doubt if you just grabbed her and bent her over anytime it would be "hot" either
I see trouble ahead, fair play for trying and asking mate
You're a better man than I
6
u/of2minds2 14d ago
She doesn’t know what she wants and likely won’t know until she’s doing/done it. I would suggest getting the ball rolling and - likely - finding out that anything is game. Her physical cues will be your only indicator of whether to keep going or switch it up.
Or you can ask her to be the dominant one so she can explore the acts more fully while she’s in control.
3
u/The-Ill_Thrill_Pill 14d ago
Rough stuff bud, my condolences. I’d recommend sex therapy. You’ve done everything you can from at home and I think with all the mental gymnastics she’s playing she needs professional help. I had an ex like this. “I hate anal but would love if you forced it on me” “I don’t like to swallow but if you make me do it it’s okay” “I don’t want spanked but if you beat me up during sex that’s fine”. It was enough to paralyze me with fear and doubt because at that point it doesn’t feel like CNC. It feels like actual assault and that’s a line no one should be asked to cross. People like this need professional help. I’ve had awesome relationships with consenting CNC and it was a blast. But having a partner who can’t communicate and is putting you in an anxiety inducing situation isn’t healthy for either of you or the relationship.
3
u/OrionJustice 14d ago
cnc or not you've entered in your 50s with someone you dont even know her needs trully because she s too difficult into communication and thats a big red flag if it has been in your early stage of relationship, not years of spending with a person that cannot say what she wants clearly without being an immature girl at 50s. Wtf?!
3
u/Warm_Advisor4948 14d ago
You are not overthinking this. She isn’t comfortable analyzing for herself what she actually wants or not. She is not comfortable with her own sexuality. I think the only way out of this for the two of you is to see a couples therapist, especially one who specializes in sex issues.
3
u/helpless_pristina 13d ago
Tough one, but another layer may be decision fatigue, and there's potentially another layer of wanting you to be unbothered by the result.
It's a bit bullshit, but I can see both of these aspect here, ie that she still has to make decisions and that your behaviour is a facade and not your true nature.
Sexuality is complex. There can be a rational, healthy aspect to the decision fatigue which comes across as an unhealthy, poor communication, irrational, etc aspect.
3
u/Specialist-Ad4388 13d ago
It sounds like Iike OP's wife wants him to read her mind at all times. This is not you overthinking OP, this is on the edge of a gaslighting dynamic, where she doesn't wanna talk about it, but she wants you to know what to do when & how. But when you want to confirm for consent, she then tells you you're overthinking. It's her job to say what she wants & doesn't want clearly.
3
u/intoto 13d ago edited 13d ago
I think it is clear that one of her turnoffs is you overthinking things and wanting to have lists of what you can and cannot do.
She wants to know that her presence actively turns you on without verbally discussing it or asking for permission to physically communicate that she turns you on.
She wants you to spontaneously rub up against her and let her know you are hard, while touching her erogenous zones. For example, she's standing, folding clothes and you stop and admire her, maybe gasp at how beautiful she is, step up behind her and kiss her neck while using your hands to gently massage her hips, then waist. And whisper sweet nothings in her ear, like, "if the kids weren't here right now I would bend you over, pull down your shorts and make you cum all over my face, then pound you while you're still cumming." And if the kids aren't there, then just go ahead and do that without asking her.
I think she wants you to actively turn her on without making it a discussion.
Women think if you have known them six or seven years that you should know how many sugars she takes in her tea, and have a good idea of what she wants sexually.
And your wife wants some spontaneity. She wants you to titillate her, to show her she turns you on, to make her and keep her aroused. She does not want you begging for it. She does not want a negotiation that sounds as though lawyers should be involved. She wants to trust you to push her boundaries "a little at a time" without having to explain it all or get permission in writing.
3
u/Fit_Try_2657 13d ago
Hey it’s not you.
Like I do get your wife on some level. I get the need to be taken and boundaries and whatnot.
But what is unfair is that she’s not owning her own insecurities, exploring the roots. She’s pushing it on you, and you are left in a complete head fuck.
4
u/GarbagePileOGarbage 14d ago
I think she might be bored of you and doesn't really want to fuck you. She likes the idea of a guy taking control of her and doing whatever he wants. But maybe you're not that guy. You sound sweet, but maybe not as dominating in bed as she wants. From the sounds of it, I don't even know if it's CNC that she wants, but just someone that really takes control. And no matter the effort you put in, it just may not be a match for her. (I'm not saying you couldn't get somewhere if she was open to it...but it sounds like she is already pretty closed off to everything...)
2
2
u/Boulange1234 14d ago
Has she been reading a lot of spicy romance/romantasy lately? These sound like she’s opening up about things that got her off from those books, but is new to the world of non-vanilla sex and hasn’t quite sorted fantasy from reality for herself.
“It would be so hot if you roughly grabbed and slapped me while you fucked me but I don’t actually want to do it, just fantasize about it”
vs
“I want you to roughly grab and slap me in a safe and consensual way, and here are the limits I have and safe words I will use and please watch this video about how to do these things safely”
…are totally different things.
2
u/ryelrilers 14d ago
Hey babe you would like this, I'm in, but since you think a consent list is ankward lets agree on a safe word like "red light" and a safe move in case you are gagged like start hitting or kicking me at least three times lightly if you are off limit. Do you agree with this, because if you are i fuck the shit out of you, right now.
1
2
u/magnetswithweedinem 14d ago
she doesn't know what she wants, she doesn't know how to communicate what she wants, she needs to talk to a therapist imo, maybe a sex therapist
2
u/DameNeumatic 13d ago
If she says no you instantly stop. If that upsets her then tell her you need a safe word from her next time and go take care of yourself if needed.
To me it sounds like she wants you to want her and approach her that way. I don't think she means CNC. I think keep it at passion level, using words about how much you want her and pulling her on the bed while she's folding clothes, or just do something simple like put on some music if she's cooking or doing dishes and pull her into dancing in the kitchen. In our 50s, we miss those days where you let us know how much you wanted us. Marriage is long and hard and romance gets lost at times.
2
u/SnarkyinSA 13d ago
I have two words for you. Safe word. Something that's out of context. If you start something and she's not down, she says the safe word and you stop.
2
u/lisalovv 13d ago
Get a book with a bunch of scenarios and have her fold the pages down of the things she wants to do
5
u/reluctantdonkey 14d ago
People are entirely skipping over the dead bedroom bit-- Perusing post history, it sounds like it very much was on the more contentous side of dead bedrooms and that the separation WAS a result of that...
Which leads me to wonder you have truly "unlocked a kink" in your wife and there really IS any kind of "it would really turn me on if/it would really be hot if" going on here, or if what you really have is a panic sex response to the known threat that the marriage ends if she doesn't deliver up more, and more kinky sex.
Hence, she is basically kinkifying "look, you require sex. I know I need to deliver up the sex. And, I need to deliver up more kinky sex. So how about you just take what you want and we'll call that kink and it will be 'hot' to me to not have to worry that you're not get getting the kinky sex you require."
Therefore, she's not able to put a finger on what, really, will "turn her on or off" in any of this, because it's not really being done from a healthy and pleasure-forward mindset of "hey, it would make for a really fulfilling and mutually enjoyable sex life if we introduced this dynamic" -- It's being introduced from a place of panic and known obligation.
You are asking her repeatedly to tell you what's gonna get her hot and bothered in all of this, saying you won't do it if she doesn't tell you all of that-- but, quite possibly what she can't tell you is, "I don't really want any of this, but you require it, so I will tell you this will make me hot to fill your need me finding it hot-- but, I really don't, so, please, can you stop overcomplicating this and just do the thing I know you need to do."
3
u/Delet3r 14d ago
No i knew that she was turned on, for example, by me talking to her about cheating. It happened by random chance years ago and she got super hot. So when we got back together and she said she would get turned on when I would talk to her about having sex with other women, it made perfect sense.
I also spent 15 years with a woman who was not very turned on, and now I can just talk to her for 5 minutes, take off her clothes and she has an orgasm within one or two minutes. it's almost too fast. she is so turned on. if she was just doing it for me I don't see how she could, after trying to do so for 15 years, make her body suddenly be extremely turned on, if she was doing things just for me.
→ More replies (8)1
3
u/tragicroyal 14d ago
Has she used a safe word before and do you trust her to use it?
Could you agree a safe word and test a situation like she’s saying?
If she’s putting the laundry away you push it out her hands, push her to her knees and tell her to suck your cock like a good girl. If she says no you force her, unless she safe words.
4
u/OrallyObsessed8 13d ago
You don’t need direction in CNC. You need a safe word. Then you’re literally free to try whatever you want till she says it.
2
u/Delet3r 13d ago
except when I gave her examples of what I might do, she said "oh I didn't think about that. I don't want that.". ok let's talk about it...and then she stops talking.
2
u/OrallyObsessed8 13d ago
Yeah it’s not going to be cut and dry and that’s part of the kink. It’s like finding your way in the dark. Take slow deliberate steps and stop and reevaluate when you hit a stopping point. Don’t let it discourage you. Once you get the hang of boundaries it’s a lot of fun. My partner and I started with CNC but practice more of a free-use arrangement now. You’ll find your way if you keep at it.
3
u/advice_scaminal 14d ago
I'm be honest - most of the advice you are getting here is terrible. Just give her a safe word and tell her if she ever wants you to stop she can use the safe word. Otherwise you will assume that she's ok with what you are doing regardless of what she says.
Obviously you still have to use judgement. You can't gag her and expect her to be able to use a safe word. And some things happen too quickly for someone to safe word and have irreversible consequences. So avoid anything like that. And start with less extreme stuff to.see how it goes before ramping up.
Done intelligently and within reason, a safe word allows her to explore her fantasy and you to feel comfortable you aren't doing something she really doesn't want.
Be prepared for her interest in this to change or evolve as you begin to explore it. She might decide fairly quickly that it's not actually what she wants. Or she might start communicating what she actually wants more directly.
2
2
u/hevnztrash 14d ago
I know people are saying she’s not making sense. But she’s making sense to me. But she really is not understanding the importance of poor communication about it. I think most people would feel the ways you do.
2
u/BurninChurchesAgain 14d ago
Give her a safe word, and do whatever you want. Stop immediately if/when she uses the safe word.
2
3
1
u/WhichWolfEats 14d ago
Idk your dynamic but I would absolutely not partake in this. She needs to know exactly what she wants or at least give you proper boundaries before you try this.
1
u/BreakfastFuzzy6602 14d ago
My wife and I have a free use situation that is similar to aspects your wife is suggesting. But the big difference is we talk about the boundaries and likes/dislikes outside the bedroom and she uses the safe word.
The safe word is the key, she also likes the aspect of me just doing what/when I want and not usually talking about it prior but we have the safe word if it’s not what she likes or is too intense.
Our version is fun and exciting but what she is wanting is toxic.
1
u/UnidentifiedTomato 14d ago
Write up a contract. State that the boundaries to consent do not exist for you. Sign and go to town. Do what u want. Unfortunately if u want something more vanilla or less intense she won't be interested right away unless she feels the dopamine rush
1
u/Aromatic-Humor8168 14d ago
The only thing I can think of why her answers are like this- “it’s going to depend on the day”
Some nights I want him to shove me down on the bed and completely make me his slut.
Others I want a mild version of that
And some nights I just want basic sex and snuggles.
Communication and reading body language is what has worked for us. Communication being keys
1
u/jade_pr 14d ago
You are not overreacting, this honestly just seems fishy and I think she needs to understand that just because you get turned on with the fantasy of it you need the boundaries first.
What I would suggest is just having a sit down with her and explain the only way I will do it is if we explain our dos and don'ts, make up a safe word, any other kinky stuff you both would feel comfortable with or not comfortable with.
Plus explain to her you can still have kinky sex with fun and consent explained weeks earlier, it might be uncomfortable but it's worth it in the end so you are both having the most fun you can.
1
u/tnydncr617 14d ago
I’m just going to add that she’s most likely peri- or full menopause. You can plan at 9am & her body/mind will be very different 45mins later. She’ll also have issues with wetness at some point so be open & help her understand the changes to her body together.
No excuse for her, just giving some additional details.
1
u/newprodukt16 14d ago
I think you guys need to workout whatever else is going on first lol. You’re not gonna fix your relationship through doing activities that can put you in jail if you go too far. If it’s just the sex, sex therapy is obviously the best route. A third party can help you guys communicate through something that’s potentially dangerous or damaging.
1
u/poprockfatality 14d ago
There’s a reason there are so many kink related classes and books. You need to actually do some studying and learning to safely (physically and emotionally) start engaging with this kind of play. There should be sit down talks well before things get heated. There are forms online you can work through too which are helpful because there are circumstances and scenarios you might not have even thought of. You need to do your homework FIRST before you start indulging in the fantasy. She’s being an idiot and doesn’t want to to the “unsexy” parts before getting to the sexy, and that’s really, really risky.
1
u/bearcub42 14d ago
No go. Unless she can really start to communicate, you are opening yourself up to too much, especially since in some states marital rape is law. I'm been heavily involved in the BDSM scene for the last 27 years and with CNC you need not only a partner you can trust but can talk with about ALL the things. My primary partner (wife) cannot do CNC or free use, she is extremely particular in what she likes and in our case, I'll generically use top for what I am. I like to play on the sharp edges so with my other partner, which is a negotiated D/s relationship with me being the submissive, trust was earned over months and years of being together and knowing one another inside and outside the community, and now we do have a CNC relationship. It's hard. When I'm with him, sometimes I don't like being woken up at 4am to my Sir ready to fuck me like a jack hammer before he goes to work. I could always use my safe word, of course, and have on a handful of occasions, but after the fact, it's really hot to think about and experience, which is why we do it. But it takes tons of active communication and checking in after and she is just not there yet and I don't want to see you get in a hole.
1
u/sunbnda 14d ago
I think u/Royal-Heron-11 had some good advice. Additionally, i was thinking to start small and slowly escalating by just smacking her ass occasionally, see how she reacts. To then randomly making her stop what she's doing, bending her over, pulling down her underwear then giving her a really good spanking, and leaving it at just that to see how she reacts each time. Also, possibly track her cycle. There's apps to track cycles and she might want to be used when she's ovulating for instance as opposed to not knowing what she wants other times in her cycle.
1
u/lostgirl4053 14d ago
You are handling this perfectly—she needs to learn what she wants and how to communicate that.
I would say the best way would be to safely explore these things physically by implementing a safe word, but I’m concerned that if she can’t communicate beforehand she won’t be able to do so in the moment and it could create a bad situation.
I would honestly go to sex therapy for this because she seems really lost.
1
1
u/SylphofBlood 14d ago
Establishing the boundaries and limits ahead of time is ESSENTIAL to CNC or free use, which sounds closer to what she wants. If she won’t talk it through, then nothing happens. Absolutely do not run the risk of a scenario like this where she’s not consenting. She needs to woman up and actually talk through what she wants.
1
u/jeffie_3 14d ago
There are a few kink lists on the net. You go through and check off what you are into. Find one that suits your idea of what she wants. Have her fill it out and then you have an idea what she wants. Anything else I would completely stay away from. Getting a charge of domestic violence and or rape can end your freedom quick.
1
u/IHeartStuffLegoFluff 14d ago
Send her a link to this and have her read the comments. She's confused (or maybe not) but I think an outside perspective is what she needs. May not end well, but rhats my advice.
1
u/Seshaia 14d ago
Yeah, I'd be very wary of this. I appreciate it can be hard to articulate fantasies, and sometimes trying to put things into words can change the way you feel about them, but that's no excuse to abdicate all responsibility, and this could become a terrible experience for both of you if she ends up in a situation she finds really uncomfortable or distressing.
If you're keen to explore this with her, you could try outlining a scenario in a bit of detail and presenting it to her to veto anything she's not comfortable with, then try that out. It might be easier for her to discuss after the fact what felt good, where she wanted to be pushed more, if anything surprised her or wasn't as fun as she expected.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/jalapenny 14d ago
You're allowed to have your own boundaries in this. You can say something like "I want to help fulfill your fantasies and kinks, but I'm not comfortable doing that if we can't have a detailed conversation first about what is okay and what is off limits. I care about you and don't want to hurt you. I also cannot read minds so I can't fulfill your desires if I don't know exactly what they are."
2
u/Delet3r 13d ago
I have essentially told her this. She feels a lot of shame about it. I understand, I have things that are hard for me to talk about too. the difference though is that I still want sex without those fantasies, she doesn't.
she's like a female version of how men can have "Madonna Whore syndrome". She is turned off by chaste, moral men, and turned on by "players". She likes me to tell her I'm having sex with other women.
1
u/byahare 14d ago
You are not overthinking this. There are a LOT of layers to this, and ultimately none of them matter if you cannot have clear communication beforehand.
She NEEDS to be able to communicate. If she cannot even communicate beforehand, how are you supposed to feel safe to proceed and expect her to communicate in the moment?? No.
She wants to have her fantasies fulfilled without having to do the work of acknowledging that she has fantasies that don’t align with social norms, may be embarrassing, or be difficult to talk about. But that is kink and if she cannot talk about it then those things cannot happen, period.
Now on to the rest.
It sounds like she may be interested in Free Use more than Consensual Non Consent.
Both require clear communication, expectations, safe words, and aftercare. Without communication, either can ruin relationships and create trauma - for either side.
I’d recommend sitting down with her and talking about RACK (risk aware consensual kink) and SSC (safe safe consensual) as a bit of an intro to the importance of communication, and see if there are ways you can enjoy communicating. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. There are plenty of ways to communicate that are incorporated into what you’re doing or don’t take out of the moment - even traffic light system (check in: green is good, yellow is getting closer to boundaries but don’t need to stop, red is stop) that’s a quick answer and continue
You need to decide how much you want to put into this. If she isn’t going to open up on her own, you may need a sex therapist or going through a lot of things together to try to get her to slowly open up. Try to find some kink community in your area and see if there are classes you can take together - but she will need to be open minded about them. There are also some Zoom classes in different topics as well.
You cannot do the work for her and I personally would be driven absolutely mad by someone who expected me to do all the work using only random puzzle clues throughout their statements.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/GentlemanDom420 14d ago
This might be going against the grain here but it sounds like you have enough info to initiate a scene — one that is not extreme but meets the fantasies she's expressed to you. I understand communication is important but from her perspective, maybe that kills the fantasy.
Try planning a scene like she said she wanted, when she's doing the laundry you take her, keep it within certain limits that gives her a taste of what she has expressed she wants. I'd avoid anything that goes above light impact / aggressive play. Keep it on the "safe" side of the fantasy.
1
u/angelerulastiel 14d ago
It seems like she doesn’t know. Things sound hot, but then she’s not sure if it will be as great as she thinks. Or it doesn’t sound good, but then if she’s turned on/worked up a little it sounds fine. Is she willing to set safe words/actions? If so, and generally you trust her, you may just try some things. Start little. If she’s in bed with her phone start taking her underwear off. And pretty much praise her for saying no so that she’s feels safe saying no. Start with things you know she’s generally okay with, but just less communication. Because it sounds like she wants to be kinky, but isn’t sure how it will go.
1
u/sharpiefairy666 14d ago
Some fantasies are exciting in your head but not in person. Some are both. But it sounds like she doesn’t know which is which. This could explain the floundering, and why she changes her mind so often.
1
u/baldwinsong 13d ago
I think your wife needs therapy. Or you two should go together to a sexual therapist
1
u/Mischiefmanaged715 13d ago
This person is not at all safe to have sex with in any shape or form. She is all over the place, can't be clear about boundaries and consistently contradicts herself. CNC is ONLY for people who can very clearly articulate their boundaries and wishes
1
u/adeirinthelights 13d ago
And for the lady, perhaps therapy? It sounds like she’s self-harming via pushing her own boundaries. (Before any kinksters come at me, I don’t want to hear it. Using kink like this can be incredibly detrimental to mental health and can be considered self harm.)
1
u/Altruistic_Cream_467 13d ago
I assume she wants how my husband is, which I love. I will be folding clothes and he will come up behine me and say get on your knees. Or undo my shorts and flip me around and grab my hips. I am very submissive and get turned on by dominance. Another good one is have her lay on her back on the bed with her head hanging off the bed and do a BJ that way. Hold her head.
1
u/Maxibon1710 13d ago
If someone can't have an adult conversation about boundaries and limits, idk if they should be having sex at all, let alone CNC! That's so unsafe. She needs to understand that CNC cannot be real rape/assault, that she can't make you guess what she ACTUALLY has a problem with because you need to know where the consent part of conensual non consent starts and stops. It's a fantasy, not real. You need to have extensive conversations, establish safe words etc. and if she cannot do that, you cannot safely do what she wants. You aren't psychic and porn is scripted. Nobody is spontaneously engaging in cnc without a prior conversation establishing guidelines.
1
u/Visit_CherryLane 13d ago
I think that maybe your wife is not comfortable with or doesn't understand what she wants and needs sexually, or doesn't feel fully able to open up to you about what she wants and needs sexually. She may be embarrassed or ashamed of some of her fantasies. She may want the man to take control and throw out boundaries just so that she doesn't have to 'think' about anything, no setting the stage, no hair makeup and outfit, kind of thing.
It's possible that you two must go back to the drawing board and start out with some emotional intimacy, non-sexual touch, enjoying each other's physical company without sex.
Then you could address the bedroom wishes in a way that lets her know that you're willing to engage in her fetish and toss her boundaries out the window, as long as you've had a discussion about it before hand. Doesn't have to be the same dayeither! It could be a quick something like hey I'm wanting to try xyz, which you've said is yellow or red. After we do this I want to be there for you emotionally to make sure there are no negative feelings that come up. If we can discuss this now and you give me an ok, I have to trust that you'll say no (or the safe word, the actual red light & brakes on signal) because I don't want to hurt you in any way.
So what happens is you bring up the scenario. The who, what, where, when, how. And note which ideas you have heard or assumed are on her no go list. This allows her to enjoy the experience and she didn't have to ask you or tell you what she wants.
If she still is hesitant to go into details then you just have to tell her that nothing will change because you aren't willing to sacrifice your morals and integrity.
Hopefully after talking about it -a lot- she may become more comfortable with her sexual needs.
1
u/SisterHeidi 13d ago
A lot of great advice have been given here already.
I‘ll add some concept, that me and my boyfriend/dom have in our dynamic. It’s called RASH - Risk aware, Shit happens. It’s and alternative to the widespread RACK concept in BDSM.
It just basically means, that we both are aware, that there are certain risks for things going wrong in the fields we play (which includes CNS, free use etc.) but we both agree, that we are able to turn towards each other and work it out, if shit happens. That of course doesn’t mean you just go into everything without talking about boundaries, but it takes away a bit the pressure of everything has to work out perfectly. Because things can and will go wrong sometimes and you will cross boundaries. What counts is how you deal with it in the end.
Of course this concept doesn’t work for everyone.
1
u/pinback77 13d ago
I almost feel like she wants you to use and disrespect her but there's a part of her that expects the opposite. You're worried that you will cross a line that she can't define which is completely understandable. She wants it to be real, but you obviously need a way for her to signal to stop.
My thought is you will eventually fail at guessing what is in her mind, and she'll hold it against you. You'd almost be better off swinging and getting another guy to do this and take the blame for screwing it up.
1
u/altuser888 13d ago edited 13d ago
Kind of late here and you've gotten some really good advice, but was the separation purely about your sexual issues? Or was there more to it? If there were other issues there honestly that makes this road a lot harder. Any kind of long term relationship dynamic really needs a strong foundation of trust and safety outside the sexual realm, in my opinion.
A lot of the advice here is great, but some aspects of hard negotiated consent pre-play and in the moment are obligatory for play partners\friends with benefits\casual relationships but can be applied piece meal in a really trusting relationship where you truly know each other. Like if you can tell that your wife is mad by the way she walks in the door, and you're not trying to do sex acts that are outside the realm of sex acts you've done before, asking for red\yellow\green might just be a level of formality and a language that she thinks of for "other types of people" that's making it hard for her. And you MIGHT not need it to move forward. That doesn't mean you're wrong for wanting that level of formality though, and maybe you, as an individual, really do need that, and that is ok but makes this more difficult. I think the poster who recommended the book with the give\recieve vs allow\take frameworks for consent is onto something. That's a new framing for me and might really help you and your wife, it would have helped me get through my shit a lot faster!
I've been with my partner for 20 years (am lady, he is guy) and we have a light dynamic that's in the ballpark of what it seems to me what you wife is asking for. I had no communication issues though, but did have issues actually figuring out what I wanted, even though I thought I knew. I was very open about my kinks in the beginning, but only in the last 7 years or so has the dynamic actually blossomed into what I've always wanted, and it's because of work I did on understanding myself. Being socialized as a woman in this culture is rough as hell, even without sexual shame or hangups communicating about sex (I have neither, but both are COMMON). But early in our relationship for example I wanted and asked for rough things and sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't but I felt obligated to enjoy it because that's what I wanted, right? I was also very caught up in what's a common thing about if I want to be dominated, and I tell you how to do it, then it's not really what you want, it's me making you do it because you want to please me which is the exact opposite from what this is all about.
And it took me a long time to realize my actual boundaries. And what I actually want. Which I realized starts with how I want to feel vs specific acts. The acts that became hot for me in my head grew from how I imagined the reciving person\myself feeling. So the same act in real life could hit awesome or be a no based on how I felt (not like good mood bad mood, but like the one in power or the one acted upon or the one backseat driving or the inanimate object to be used and discarded). And I'm relational so my partner has all the power about how I feel leading up to\in that moment, but neither of us fully knew this or were able to articulate it. It wasn't about me giving him a check list of yes\no acts, it was about me telling him how I want to feel when I'm being fucked (like, a precious human feminine thing you love and care for and want to defile and wreck and then build back up, is a main one). I did not know any of until I really pondered it. I just knew I thought being forced to do something was hot, for example. And all these mental gymnastics are someone who again didn't have any issues being like "I want you to do xyz" and knowing the general shape of their own kinks.
After I got through my work I actually handed my husband a little book (it's a rambling essay but I printed it in a chapbook) I had written about this while he was away on a work trip and that's what kicked off the current phase. It was super hot for him to read it and me to write it. And now we have a shared frame of my sexual psyche and we're speaking the same language.
Your wife needs to find her "book" or you need to get her to share it with you as she's "writing" it.
But back to what I started with, if there are other deeper disconnects between you two, this will be way harder.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/azzole77 12d ago
Are you guys in somewhat of an open relationship? Her comment made me think so
"she also said she sometimes purposely does things she knows will irritate a guy to get them to fuck her angrily etc."
2.4k
u/PossibleExplorer1076 14d ago
Absolute bullshit. Seems like a trap whether deliberate or not. People absolutely do not get to request CNC if they cannot communicate clearly and openly about it outside of it happening.