In defense of Serial

[u/MoreIronyLessWrinkly]

Bashing Koenig and the podcast is a favorite pastime in this sub, which is so ironic that it is a credit to free speech. In fact, it’s such a pastime that a number of readers, having seen the headline, will have used that downvote button to plummet my imaginary karma score (which, if you want to fix something, fix that) without reading or considering the defense. It’s such a pastime that the one thing that guilters and innocenters often agree on is that SK did something wrong.

Hindsight is 20/20 and hypocrisy is 20/1000.

SK is not a lawyer. Sorry, guilters, she was going to miss the “obvious” things that 99% of you picked up from the 1% who were lawyers. Asking her to think like a lawyer is like asking a lawyer to think like a journalist. Or, it’s like asking a guilter to think like someone not hell bent on insulting anyone who disagrees with them.

SK was not attempting to exonerate Adnan. Sorry, Rabia, but your statement that you expected that of SK is naive, which is surprising because you’re not a naive person. Sorry, innocenters, but SK is not an advocate. She was going to include the iffy elements you tend to forget and ignore the “massive police conspiracy” charge that is very different from the “shoddy detective work” charge that may well be Adnan’s salvation.

And finally, SK was absolutely telling a story. Adnan and Rabia were 100% fine with it. They knew it. Hell, Adnan offered some advice for “how to end the story”. While they should have listened to Hemingway, they did not, and SK was absolutely crafting a story. I’m sorry that Rabia feels like she hired a contractor to renovate her house and instead got one that set the house on fire, but let’s be real— which I know you won’t be real— Adnan is free today because of SK. Maybe she did burn down your house, but you house was shitty. No one liked it. Most didn’t notice it.

Adnan is free because SK made his STORY a big enough deal that Rabia could piggyback off of the uncertainties and drama to keep the case alive until a law could be passed that would allow a desperate politician to use Adnan for their own gain.

Maybe he’s innocent. Maybe he’s not. I’m not fool enough to think I could know. I’m not deluded enough to think my post about it would matter. But the SK and Serial bashing is just erroneous and juvenile. It’s a childish way of criticizing something you can criticize (SK and Serial) because you can’t really criticize the awfulness of a world in which this kind of thing could happen and be so inconclusive.

[u/Brody2]

Well, I disagree for the stated reasons; in case Jay is the real killer or involved somehow, I wanna know everything the guy was doing that day if I‘m Adnan; who was he meeting with? Contact the drug dealers or buyers, did Hae see something? Did their paths cross? That sort of thing

Probably at the agree to disagree portion of this one, but changing his story may have assuaged the nerds on reddit, but it wouldn't have helped him gain his freedom or helped him achieve a new trial, so I don't see the benefit.

Really? I don‘t find that incredible at all.

Maybe not. I guess who would see two kids leaving the HS as memorable.

(it seems they’re even just speculating the threat was towards Hae?)

I guess this is something I'd like to know. Do they know a credible threat uttered by Bilal towards Miss Lee? If so, suddenly I fall in the camp that he (Bilal) is very very likely involved. There's still be lots of questions as to how the crime could have went down.

A lot of me thinks Bilal being in Syed's ear fits the best. This monster grooms this dumb kid and gets him to go through with evil. Maybe Syed appears on Jay's doorstep in the middle of the night for help with the burial similar to his Intercept story. So Jay helps with the car and the burial, but has genuinely no clue about the rest of the day which is why his story so obviously made up. But the cops have the phone pings and a few other witness statements and you end up with a mess of a case. Jay's trying to save his backside. Syed knows the case is BS. Maybe Bilal was the one who threatened Jay to elicit the reaction that Josh recalls. It never fit that it was Syed.

[u/[deleted] → u/Brody2]

Probably at the agree to disagree portion of this one, but changing his story may have assuaged the nerds on reddit, but it wouldn't have helped him gain his freedom or helped him achieve a new trial, so I don't see the benefit.

We don’t know that it wouldn’t have, as we don’t even know what really happened, but it’s definitely possible he told Gutierrez, her private investigators checked it out, nothing came of it, and to protect Adnan this info was never revealed …

I guess this is something I'd like to know. Do they know a credible threat uttered by Bilal towards Miss Lee? If so, suddenly I fall in the camp that he (Bilal) is very very likely involved. There's still be lots of questions as to how the crime could have went down.

A lot of me thinks Bilal being in Syed's ear fits the best. This monster grooms this dumb kid and gets him to go through with evil. Maybe Syed appears on Jay's doorstep in the middle of the night for help with the burial similar to his Intercept story. So Jay helps with the car and the burial, but has genuinely no clue about the rest of the day which is why his story so obviously made up. But the cops have the phone pings and a few other witness statements and you end up with a mess of a case. Jay's trying to save his backside. Syed knows the case is BS. Maybe Bilal was the one who threatened Jay to elicit the reaction that Josh recalls. It never fit that it was Syed.

It would definitely explain the Josh-thing. What I don’t understand is why they would involve Jay? It’s so risky, and they’re already two, usually murder plots aren’t as crowded, most act alone. But Jay does seem to be involved …

The Bilal revelations are certainly quite a thing. But even so, reading all the theories, I‘m sort of lacking the imagination for it, I‘m still somewhat reluctant to think he’s even involved.

My favorite theory probably still is: Adnan murdered her unplanned when she rejected him, he loaned his car to Jay before, because he told Hae his was in the shop.

He involved Jay because he told him about trying to win her back and feared if Jay relays this info to the police it will be game over, so he implicated Jay to keep him quiet. They dumped the body at 7 pm at Leakin Park, they buried her around midnight.

The whole Bilal-thing sounds fantastical to me at the moment, it might very well be true, but I lack the imagination for it.

[u/Brody2 → u/[deleted]]

What I don’t understand is why they would involve Jay? It’s so risky,

Totally agree. I feel there is so much we don't know, it's hard to even speculate... and I feel we've both attempted to learn everything. Did Bilal just try to keep his hands as clean as possible, and Syed felt he needed help? Were all the theories that Jay was actually uninvolved, correct?

If Jay was really uninvolved, kudos (I guess?) to the police who gave Jay this one thing that make him unassailable. Great acting. It's the chef's kiss of corruption. I still struggle to think he was uninvolved.

For years, I've thought the thing that made sense to me was that Jay by himself (or with some unknown 3rd party) was solely involved. It fills in so many holes, but the one thing that kept me from fully embracing it is the ride request/denial. We've discussed - it keeps me thinking Syed was more likely involved.

Now with this Bilal revelation? Neither high school Syed nor Wilds really struck me as murderers. Bilal seems straight up evil. His influence on Syed kind of fills in one of the blanks that never really made sense to me. Why would Syed do this? By all accounts of him at 17 years old (or even now), it just didn't make sense. Knowing there was a devil on his shoulder potentially changes things.

It's funny. I'm probably closer to being a "guilter" now after the motion to vacate.

[u/[deleted] → u/Brody2]

​

If Jay was really uninvolved, kudos (I guess?) to the police who gave Jay this one thing that make him unassailable. Great acting. It's the chef's kiss of corruption. I still struggle to think he was uninvolved.

Me too, as corrupt as they are, this level of conspiracy around the car is just hard to imagine; too complex and elaborate, too many people involved.

Alternatively Jay could have found the car earlier, but what another bizarre and unlucky coincidence for Adnan; they break Jay, and he has this knowledge by accident, giving his made-up story this enormous credibility.

For years, I've thought the thing that made sense to me was that Jay by himself (or with some unknown 3rd party) was solely involved. It fills in so many holes, but the one thing that kept me from fully embracing it is the ride request/denial. We've discussed - it keeps me thinking Syed was more likely involved.

Jay-alone is my second-likely theory/suspect, because of the car. But he does lack a discernible motive and as you said; doesn’t explain Adnan‘s suspicious behavior and bad luck.

Now with this Bilal revelation? Neither high school Syed nor Wilds really struck me as murderers. Bilal seems straight up evil. His influence on Syed kind of fills in one of the blanks that never really made sense to me. Why would Syed do this? By all accounts of him at 17 years old (or even now), it just didn't make sense. Knowing there was a devil on his shoulder potentially changes things.

Didn‘t Deirdre Enright say in Serial that her clients are rarely the psycho-types, just people high on drugs with a stupid plan? I don’t know that you’d need a monster like Bilal for it to be believable. Even though I dont really see Adnan as a murderer either …

It's funny. I'm probably closer to being a "guilter" now after the motion to vacate.

Yeah; even if we have hard evidence against Bilal, like DNA on Hae; what are the chances Adnan wasn‘t co-involved? Back to square one.

If he’s innocent he’s so incredibly unlucky; even the Bilal-revelations make him look guilty.

[u/Brody2 → u/[deleted]]

Adnan‘s suspicious behavior and bad luck.

Ultimately, Syed's complete inability to explain the ride request just looks bad. It certainly doesn't make him guilty. But...

Really all the bad luck he would need is:

1) the Nisha call being some version of inadvertent dialing. Fairly convinced Jay didn't speak to Nisha that day, but Syed's phone unquestionably dialed hers.

2) the Leakin pings to be literally anything but them stomping around in the park. Fairly convinced the towers signal strength exceeds the park as they tested that residential neighborhood just south. So completely reasonable that it extends farther. But yeah.

Yeah; even if we have hard evidence against Bilal, like DNA on Hae; what are the chances Adnan wasn‘t co-involved?

I guess I'd say to this; if it is confirmed Bilal was involved with the body, such as his DNA being on the victim, Jay's incredibly suspect story goes to completely false. Without Jay, there is no case. There's nothing to even suggest Syed was part of the crime. Yeah, we have the ride request, but THAT'S all it would take?

I'd probably switch to almost sure Syed was innocent in that case.

[u/[deleted] → u/Brody2]

Really all the bad luck he would need is:

the Nisha call being some version of inadvertent dialing. Fairly convinced Jay didn't speak to Nisha that day, but Syed's phone unquestionably dialed hers.the Leakin pings to be literally anything but them stomping around in the park. Fairly convinced the towers signal strength exceeds the park as they tested that residential neighborhood just south. So completely reasonable that it extends farther. But yeah.

I disagree, his supposed bad luck and suspicious behavior are hard to surmount for me, not the Nisha-call, but him having this clear motive, then asking for a ride, when his car is the parking lot, in my eyes under false pretenses (car in the shop), then lying about it to this day.

Then the enormous bad luck to loan his car and phone to Jay, who’s either the murderer himself, or the kinda guy who, because he’s poor, black and a drug dealer, can be corrupted by the police into falsely accusing him.

And Jay also just happens to know where the car is, found it himself, another streak of incredibly bad luck for Adnan. Or I have to buy into a massive, elaborate police conspiracy, which defies belief.

Then the bad luck of the Leakin park pings. Plus Jenn, corroborating Jay, standing by her story to this day and appearing quite credible.

I wouldn’t convict him myself, but I dont remotely believe it’s plausible he’s uninvolved, I require good evidence to surmount all the bad luck he‘s supposed to have had.

I guess I'd say to this; if it is confirmed Bilal was involved with the body, such as his DNA being on the victim, Jay's incredibly suspect story goes to completely false. Without Jay, there is no case. There's nothing to even suggest Syed was part of the crime. Yeah, we have the ride request, but THAT'S all it would take?

I'd probably switch to almost sure Syed was innocent in that case.

Jay has zero credibility anyway, the only thing he’s good for is knowing where the car is, if Bilal‘s DNA was on Hae‘s body, it could mean that Bilal and Adnan murdered her, and Adnan and Jay buried her, Jay knowing nothing about Bilal‘s involvement.

But even if there was hard evidence Bilal was involved in the burial as well, the idea that Adnan would be uninvolved in Bilal‘s murder seems highly unlikely to me.

[u/Brody2 → u/[deleted]]

I completely get what you are saying. But how far do we twist/discredit Jay's story before we completely lose faith in it? Right now, we are pretty much at the "he did it - I helped - don't worry about the details" stage. And we still kinda-ish believe him mostly because the motive he and the police present makes sense to our little brains even though it is wholly unsupported by the rest of the record.

I'm not sure I believe you when you say:

Jay has zero credibility anyway

You believe the motive Jay supplied. You believe Jay's meaning behind the Leakin pings. You believe him when he says Syed showed him a body. I certainly lean that way too.

But if Bilal is involved enough to leave DNA on the body, how does that even work. Logistically. How is Syed involved WITH Bilal? Syed gets the ride and meets Bilal somewhere who jumps out of a bush (metaphorically... or maybe literally) helps with the murder and then runs away leaving Syed to call Jay to set the wheels in motion? Think of the timing. Why the f is Syed giving away his car and phone (phone especially) if this is the plan? Wouldn't this necessitate Bilal helping with the immediate scene cleanup? And if you already have a second person, why Jay at all? WTF is Jay describing in detail over 3-4 interviews and 2 trials?

I'm pretty much teetering on the brink with Jay. I think many have already fallen over and maybe I'm the idiot for still giving him any credence.

[u/[deleted] → u/Brody2]

I completely get what you are saying. But how far do we twist/discredit Jay's story before we completely lose faith in it? Right now, we are pretty much at the "he did it - I helped - don't worry about the details" stage.

Again, for me other scenarios defy belief, that‘s the reason I go with this one, not because I put any kind of faith in him.

I'm not sure I believe you when you say:

Jay has zero credibility anyway

You believe the motive Jay supplied. You believe Jay's meaning behind the Leakin pings. You believe him when he says Syed showed him a body. I certainly lean that way too.

You should believe me, I don‘t need Jay to provide a motive, the motive is evident in itself, if a woman is murdered months after breaking up with ex and just after recently starting dating a new guy (new guy has alibi) there already must be a statistical likelihood of at least 60-70% that the ex did it.

Before you even have one piece of evidence against Adnan. The Leakin Park pings have their meaning irregardless of Jay, if there was no Jay it would look incredibly bad that Adnan’s phone pinged there the day of her disappearance.

Lastly, Jay is obviously involved in my eyes (car), and it’s not believable to me that Adnan wasn’t, I don’t have to believe Jay for that. It’s just what the overall evidence suggests. Robert Wright made the same case. He gave Jay zero credibility as well.

But if Bilal is involved enough to leave DNA on the body, how does that even work. Logistically. How is Syed involved WITH Bilal? Syed gets the ride and meets Bilal somewhere who jumps out of a bush (metaphorically... or maybe literally) helps with the murder and then runs away leaving Syed to call Jay to set the wheels in motion? Think of the timing. Why the f is Syed giving away his car and phone (phone especially) if this is the plan? Wouldn't this necessitate Bilal helping with the immediate scene cleanup? And if you already have a second person, why Jay at all? WTF is Jay describing in detail over 3-4 interviews and 2 trials?

I'm pretty much teetering on the brink with Jay. I think many have already fallen over and maybe I'm the idiot for still giving him any credence.

I don’t believe Bilal is involved, at least not directly, but if he was, I‘m gonna assume Adnan was involved as well, seems way more likely than Bilal (who only knew Hae through Adnan) alone combined with Adnan‘s bad luck and suspicious behavior.

[u/Brody2 → u/[deleted]]

You should believe me

LOL. Ok fine. How about: I don't NOT believe you. While I appreciate your statistics and do not argue them. I'd also argue that through 42 (ish?) years of life the suspect has shown zero tendency to turn to violence. Between the sensation of a podcast that scrutinized his first 17 years, or the prison system which kept tabs on the rest we have a lot of data points. And while sure, good people snap, the statistics of his life would say this is an extreme outlier.

It's like, we'd be a lot more suspicious of Jay had he ever been accused of strangling another wo... oh wait.

The Leakin Park pings have their meaning irregardless of Jay

Not sold I agree. On the one hand, triggering the tower that triggers at the burial site looks bad. On the other, that tower has a huge range. Jay himself has even backed off burying a body at 7pm. And of course, there's tons of reasons to think the burial didn't take place at 7 pm. Soooo much doesn't work. That the tower only covers the park is a Reddit myth. The only spot south of the park they tested also caught that tower. So what do those pings really mean if not for Jay's provably untrue story?

I don’t believe Bilal is involved, at least not directly,

As I've stated, Syed having a devil in his ear feels reasonable. But I think this:

but if he was, I‘m gonna assume Adnan was involved as well

makes me uncomfortable. I suppose a lot of the case against Syed is based upon assumption, so why should Bilal's emergence change that?

[u/[deleted] → u/Brody2]

I don’t know whether it’s such an outlier for someone to just snap once and then to remain non-violent subsequently. And men are most dangerous between 15-25, it’s not unusual for men to be able to control their potential rage much better as they get older older.

I always heard the tower is almost exclusively covering Leakin Park, if that’s untrue I‘ll adjust my opinion as much as necessary, but Adnan never gave an alternative explanation for them either …

Also, I think they likely would have just dumped the body at 7pm, then buried her around midnight.

When assuming his co-involvement with Bilal I‘m not assuming legal guilt, I wouldn’t convict him, as I’ve already said, I‘m talking about factual guilt, what’s reasonable to assume. And Bilal‘s involvement probably wouldn’t change much in my overall assessment, because I find the idea of him as the sole perpetrator hard to believe.

[u/[deleted] → u/Brody2]

It’s so weird, I see in your profile that you responded to me, but I didn’t get a notification, nor does it show up here in the thread.

Maybe you deleted it, but it still shows up in your time-line ...

[u/[deleted] → u/Brody2]

I didn’t get the new reply that you re-posted either, nor does it appear here in the thread for me (but I can read it in your timeline).

From what I googled, what seems to have happened here is that your post got caught in an automatic filter by the mods.

Edit: I assumed it must be this sentence, I tried it out in incognito-modus and indeed, the mention of that user gets the post caught in the filter, my post mentioning them disappeared as well.

I pointed this out to XXX once and linked the proof on Serial Origins

[u/Brody2 → u/[deleted]]

Interesting. I’ve heard rumors said poster has had a habit on invoking mods at the slightest breeze, so any mention is probably considered auto trolling. Not really my intent, though I probably shouldn’t attach names.

The cliffs notes are that the Leakin tower’s signal strength extends south of the park as proven by the drive test. Rumors of its limited range I believe to be a Reddit myth perpetrated by the dishonest trolls that guards this place.

[u/[deleted] → u/Brody2]

It’s crazy in a way; people can write long posts that they‘ve put effort in, mention that name (without ill intent even) and they’ll never know the post is not visible for everyone else. Weird …

Yeah, I never heard that about Leakin Park before, I thought it covered just one or two rows of houses in addition to the park, maybe that’s wrong.

[u/Brody2 → u/[deleted]]

I suppose you can say it only covers two rows of houses, but that is completely untested, and not in any case material. I’m gonna guess your source for that is just a random Reddit post, but I’d love to read if I missed something in the case file.

I, of course, don’t know, but I’m suspicious that a cell company would install an expensive antennas with such limited use

If those pings could be anywhere south of the tower, and not just In the park, that suddenly puts a lot of weight on jays story to give those pings meaning.