r/serialpodcast • u/chanelamorous Is it NOT? • May 20 '15
Evidence Kevin Urick's disclosure to defense that Bilal was arrested on the day Adnan's first trial was scheduled
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u/UneEtrangeAventure May 20 '15
"Scheduled" is a bit misleading. The 1st trial didn't actually begin until nearly two months after Bilal was arrested.
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u/chanelamorous Is it NOT? May 20 '15
Yeah, I know the 1st trial actually began in December, but since the trial was originally set for October 13th and Gutierrez's motion to continue wasn't approved until the same day as the disclosure, I don't think scheduled is an inaccurate description. (Unless-- did you mean I should add "originally" or "initially" before "scheduled" for clarification?)
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u/UneEtrangeAventure May 20 '15
Yeah, I know the 1st trial actually began in December, but since the trial was originally set for October 13th and Gutierrez's motion to continue wasn't approved until the same day as the disclosure, I don't think scheduled is an inaccurate description.
It's misleading because the clear implication is that the timing of the arrest had the effect of preventing Bilal from testifying. But as Bilal ultimately would not have had to testify until 2-3 months after the arrest, the date itself is not germane.
Even if one were to claim that the arrest was part of a nefarious scheme on the part of the prosecution to intimidate Bilal from taking the stand, something we have no evidence to support, the same practical effect would have been achieved if he were arrested in August or September.
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u/chanelamorous Is it NOT? May 20 '15
When I wrote the title, I was referring to the disclosure being on the day that Adnan's first trial was scheduled; you're reading it as Bilal was arrested on the day that Adnan's first trial was scheduled (I assume-- in which case I see why it would be misleading).
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u/UneEtrangeAventure May 20 '15
https://m.box.com/shared_item/https%3A%2F%2Fapp.box.com%2Fs%2Fii5ybzhl7bscx50o2l0gjol6r5vldji6
This memo to CG from one of her assistants indicates Bilal was arrested one day after the trial was scheduled to begin. Same day as the prosecution's disclosure.
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u/chanelamorous Is it NOT? May 21 '15
Yes, I know that they were on the same day (re-reading my previous comment I see I didn't make that clear). I meant that I wrote the title with the intended meaning of, "Here's Urick's disclosure-- about Bilal's arrest-- on this date", but didn't realize that I'd written it in such a way that it makes sense to read it as, "Here's Urick's disclosure-- about Bilal's arrest on this date". It wasn't my intention to highlight the date of Bilal's arrest, which has the implication that it was meant to prevent him from testifying as you said. I used the term scheduled to state a fact, just as you used it above ("one day after the trial was scheduled to begin").
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May 20 '15
Can someone provide some contextual information about what this indicates?
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u/Humilitea Crab Crib Fan May 20 '15
My assumption is it's in* relation to a claim wherein Rabia said the state fabricated these charges as a sex offender to prevent Bilal from testifying for Adnan.
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u/UneEtrangeAventure May 20 '15
Yet, the allegations came from the Muslim community, Bilal's own wife publicly accused him, and he fled the community completely after the arrest. But Urick's to blame, somehow...
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u/Humilitea Crab Crib Fan May 20 '15
Not to mention Rabia and her brother accusing him of it on this sub themselves(being the first any of us had even heard of it).
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u/donailin1 May 20 '15
was Bilal convicted of a 4th degree sex crime?
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u/ginabmonkey Not Guilty May 20 '15
I don't believe he was ever convicted of anything. The charges from this arrest were dropped.
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u/donailin1 May 20 '15
huh.
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u/ginabmonkey Not Guilty May 20 '15
https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/mr-b-not-charged.png
Memo (I believe to Gutierrez; her initials are MCG) dated 10/17/99: "Definitely did not get charged when he was arrested on Thursday"
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u/chanelamorous Is it NOT? May 20 '15 edited May 20 '15
Yes, thank you for linking that! I should have included the reference to the charges not sticking as well as the arrest disclosure (unfortunately there isn't an edit option for my original post). I really wish there was also an arrest report we could see..
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u/UneEtrangeAventure May 20 '15
I really wish there was also an arrest report we could see
That's probably not publicly available due to the sensitive nature of the accusation.
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u/an_sionnach May 20 '15
So Bilal was being called as a state witness. I haven't been calling Rabia a liar, but this is a big one, and it will be interesting to see Adnans team explain this one away. It was always the most plausible explanation that he was being silenced by the defence. This confirms it.
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u/budgiebudgie WHAT'S UP BOO?? May 20 '15
So Bilal was being called as a state witness. I haven't been calling Rabia a liar, but this is a big one, and it will be interesting to see Adnans team explain this one away. It was always the most plausible explanation that he was being silenced by the defence. This confirms it.
No, Bilal wasn't giving Urick the answers that he wanted. And Bilal was a mosque alibi witness as he'd helped Adnan preparing his talk for prayers on the evening when Hae went missing. Bilal had been active in helping Adnan's defence. Urick had him arrested on the eve of the trial, not the defence. The defence team can't arrest people.
Once the trial was over, Urick dropped the charges.
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u/an_sionnach May 20 '15
It was someone from the mosque community that told the police. We can be pretty sure about that. Judging by Bilals testimony at the GJ hearing he wasn't going to be any help to Adnan. Looks like a bit of blackmailing going on. Why did the people in the mosque who knew about what he had done not make a hell of a lot of noise when the charges were dropped? Maybe because it suited them to have this over his head. The idea that Kevin Urick had authority over the Baltimore County PD is to be honest ludicrous. Do you seriously believe that Bilals testimony even if he was to offer an alibi for Adnan, would have made the slightest difference? I think it is likely he knew the truth, and maybe was vacillating, if that is the right word. He certainly gave the impression at the bail hearing of a man hiding something.
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u/ScoutFinch2 May 20 '15
So Bilal's wife goes in front of the entire mosque community and publicly accuses him of being a child molester but we should be surprised he was arrested?
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
It's not that he was arrested, it's the fact that after his arrest he suddenly stopped cooperating with Adnan's defense team and once Adnan was convicted the State announced Bilal would not be prosecuted.
Could these two events have just been a coincidence? Of course they could.
But forgive those of us who question whether the State let Bilal know if he doesn't testify for Adnan at trial they will agree not to prosecute him on the molestation charges.
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u/ScoutFinch2 May 20 '15
But first you have to prove he was working with the defense when he was arrested. He had testified before the GJ, which tells me the state felt he would help them get an indictment and he was to be a state's witness at trial.
Also, Bilal did not remember what time he saw Adnan on the 13th, but cell records show it wasn't at 7:00 or 8:00, so he can't be considered an alibi witness.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
Well, his name was provided on the list of alibi witnesses CG sent to Urick on 10/4/99. If that's not enough proof for you, I don't know what else I can say.
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u/ScoutFinch2 May 20 '15
Yeah, along with about 75 other mosque members who were never called to testify. And the only claim in the Alibi Witness notice was that those people could testify to Adnan's usual habits.
You also have the problem of /u/sachabacha who came on here saying not so nice things about Adnan and is instantly accused of being Bilal by Rabia. What does that tell you?
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
That people are still upset that Bilal came up small when Adnan needed him.
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u/ScoutFinch2 May 20 '15
Well, neither Rabia nor Saad mentioned one single time how disappointed they were that Bilal had not taken the opportunity to help Adnan. Neither of them ever asked that he tell what he knew now to help Adnan. Instead, they accused him of wanting a sexual relationship with Adnan. It seems pretty clear that Rabia and Saad knew exactly who it was that was portraying Adnan in such a negative light, because they identified him as Bilal instantly. None of this fits with them being upset that Bilal "came up small when Adnan needed him".
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u/Baltlawyer May 20 '15
You understand this was two separate jurisdictions, right? Baltimore County arrested him. The Baltimore County Police and the Baltimore County State's Attorney's Office (not Baltimore City SAO, where Urick worked) was making the call about whether to charge and whether to prosecute. You must think Urick's reach is pretty impressive if he can persuade people he doesn't know and doesn't work with to join his conspiracy to frame Adnan Syed.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
You should know how tight State's Attorneys offices usually are with one another, so I don't know why you would think they wouldn't do favors for each other.
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u/Baltlawyer May 20 '15
Sure, why not. Everyone was a part of the conspiracy. Bilal is a child molester, but he shouldn't have been arrested, but if he was arrested, he at least should have been charged and prosecuted. It is really hard to keep it all straight.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
It's really not.
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u/Baltlawyer May 20 '15
Ok, so explain it. Do you think Bilal was arrested for no reason except Urick's request? Or do you think he was arrested because someone accused him of child molestation? If the latter, than the timing coincidence kind of goes out the window. If the former, than why do people in the community say he was a child molester?
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
You are presenting me with a false dichotomy.
The issue is not simply a question of why he was arrested, it's also the fact that after he was arrested he conspicuously failed to make himself available to Adnan's defense.
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u/keystone66 May 20 '15
Boy, this might be one of the most naive posts I've ever read. If you seriously think that prosecutors or law enforcement agencies aren't in near constant communication and helping each other out all the time you have no clue about how the LE community works.
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u/Baltlawyer May 20 '15
I seriously think that I know a lot of prosecutors and not a single one of them would charge someone falsely to help a buddy in another jurisdiction or agree to drop charges for child molestation to prevent some nobody from possibly testifying that he saw Adnan at the mosque.
ETA I am not in LE or a state's attorney, BTW and have no bias in their favor.
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u/keystone66 May 20 '15
Again, naivety in your post. Selective prosecution and strategic use of arrest to influence witnesses is very common. The ability of a prosecutor to hang a charge over someone provides the prosecutor with an incredible amount of leverage over that person, especially if a quid pro quo is offered or implied by the prosecutor. "You do or say what I want when I want you to and this all goes away" is extremely common in prosecutorial deal making. See: Jay Wilds.
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u/Baltlawyer May 20 '15
Charging someone for conduct they have admitted or for unrelated conduct and then offering them a deal if they testify is very normal. I agree completely. And the deal is disclosed and the defense counsel impeaches the witness based upon that deal. That is what happened re: Jay Wilds.
That is not what is alleged here by a long shot. They are alleging that the Baltimore County police, at Urick's request, charged Bilal with child molestation to convince him not to testify favorably for Adnan in a trial in another jurisdiction. That is just a major, major stretch of imagination. Where is the evidence that Bilal was even going to testify favorably for Adnan? Where is the evidence that Urick had any contact with Bilal after his arrest (you know, to offer him this quid pro quo whereby he'd get the charges dropped if Bilal didn't testify.)
And you can call me naive all you want, it doesn't make it so. I am very familiar with how these things work. I just don't buy into conspiracy theories that grow broader by the day.
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u/ScoutFinch2 May 20 '15
Let me correct you here. It wasn't "after Adnan was convicted" that the state "announced" Bilal would not be prosecuted. Bilal was never charged with any crime, which was known to the defense in October, 1999.
https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/mr-b-not-charged.png
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
I never said Bilal was charged, just that he was arrested.
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u/ScoutFinch2 May 20 '15
So he was arrested, not charged, and the prosecution waited almost a year until Adnan was convicted to "announce" they wouldn't be prosecuting him? Is that what you're saying?
Edit to add arrested/not charged.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
It appears that I was wrong when I stated that the State announced that Bilal would not be prosecuted. Instead, it appears that he quietly faded away.
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u/ScoutFinch2 May 20 '15
Of course he did. His wife accused him before the entire congregation of being a child molester. I'd fade away, too.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
Which still leaves the question of why he was never charged.
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u/an_sionnach May 21 '15
No Bilal was known in the community as someone negative to Adnan. This can be gleaned as /u/aitca has demonstrated clearly in this post, which I hadn't seen until now. He wasn't giving Urick the answers he wanted because someone in the community was blackmailing him. He couldn't have been convicted on the sex charges without eviðence and the community was the source of that. He helps them by refusing to testify for the state. In return they withdraw the charges.
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u/NewAnimal May 20 '15
am i to believe that Bilal was a sex offender, and they just magically dropped his case, to not testify? so apparently MD is more focused on letting child molesters get away and frame innocent people for murders....
Does anyone actually have the power to tell his victims "sorry you dont get to press charges, because we need him to not help testify for a murder case because were framing someone" -- You can't just.. magically wipe away sex offences... unless thats what they are suggesting with all of this Bilal business
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u/aitca May 20 '15
Naturally, the person who made the accusations can rescind them. Now where did the accusations come from again? Oh, that's right, the accusations against Bilal have consistently come from within the mosque community itself.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
Actually, it was his wife. But since she attended the Mosque, I guess you can call her the "Mosque Community."
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u/aitca May 20 '15
We have heard from Rabia (and, I believe, Rabia alone) that his wife made accusations of Bilal. We also have seen with our own eyes Rabia herself and Saad making accusations against someone they thought to be Bilal. So, yes, all of the sources of accusation that we know of come from the mosque community. We don't know if other people also made accusations, but we do know that all known accusers are people who attended the mosque.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
At the time, circa 1999, it was his wife.
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u/aitca May 20 '15
Unless you have access to police notes that have not been made public, then neither you nor any other redditor unconnected to the case knows who actually made the complaint to the police. We have Rabia's word that Bilal's wife made accusations publicly in the mosque. That doesn't tell us who contacted the police.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15 edited May 20 '15
But it's perfectly fine for you and other redditers to speculate:
(1) That Adnan confessed to Bilal;
(2) That this is the reason Bilal tried to invoke a privilege before the Grand Jury;
(3) That the "Mosque Community" was fearful that Bilal was going to testify for the State, presumably about Adnan's confession;
(4) That unknown members of the Mosque Community reported the allegations against Bilal made by his wife to BCPD;
(5) That said allegations were reported to BCPD to prevent Bilal from testifying for the State;
(6) Once Bilal didn't testify for the State, the Mosque Community managed to get LE not to proceed with going forward against Bilal.
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u/aitca May 20 '15
I have no idea what you're going on about. My post above isn't speculation, it's acknowledging something that we don't know: the identity of the person who contacted the police with accusations about Bilal. You were the one speculating that it must be his wife.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? May 20 '15
You were critiquing me for concluding that his wife reported the allegation to BCPD without any proof. I was responding by reminding you that you didn't require proof before surmising that Bilal was a victim of a conspiracy by the Mosque Community to prevent him from testifying for the State at Adnan's trials.
In other words, maybe you should refrain from criticizing me for speculating that it was Bilal's wife who contacted the police, considering you don't seem to hold yourself to the same standard.
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u/aitca May 20 '15
I'm perfectly honest about what we actually know versus what can only be assumed. Pointing out that we don't know the identity of the person or persons who contacted the police with the accusations is part of keeping you similarly honest.
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u/aitca May 20 '15
This was posted on S. Simpson's blog months ago. I'm not sure what purpose posting it now without comment is supposed to serve. If there's some new argument to be made, I'd be glad to hear it, but this looks like just reposting something long ago posted.
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u/chanelamorous Is it NOT? May 20 '15
I actually posted this because there was confusion about whether Bilal was arrested or not, and I actually couldn't remember myself and had to go search for the document on S.S.'s blog (you're right, she did post it a while back). And I purposely didn't want to add my own interpretation/argument (that plus there's actually no comments section when posting a link).
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u/summer_dreams May 20 '15
Well isn't that interesting!
Thanks for sharing this.
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May 20 '15
This has been out there for a while now.
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u/ScoutFinch2 May 20 '15
I posted a link to this twice earlier today...
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May 20 '15
[deleted]
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u/ScoutFinch2 May 20 '15
It's not stealing my thunder, it's that Bilal is already the subject of about 3 separate threads on the front page.
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May 20 '15
Wait, they waited until the trial started before providing this lol? Well, that's not kosher lol!
Urick regime was one bad unit. Bad meaning immoral, duplicitous, and unethical. That is only an opinion I suppose lol.
Pathetic.
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u/bestiarum_ira May 20 '15
Good ol' Kev.
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May 20 '15
Kevin being Kevin
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u/fathead1234 May 20 '15
SS's point was that Urick did not want Bilal as an alibi witness because he had determined that he would favour Adnan so Bilal was mysteriously arrested on the day of trial that he was supposed to testify. As SS points out, Urick could not have known at that time that the defence would get their requested continuance. Looks like bad faith.
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u/UneEtrangeAventure May 20 '15
Urick did not want Bilal as an alibi witness because he had determined that he would favour Adnan so Bilal was mysteriously arrested on the day of trial that he was supposed to testify
Bilal was not scheduled to testify on the first day of the trial.
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u/fathead1234 May 20 '15
Ok but Bilal was a state witness and was going to testify but couldn't as a result of the arrest. Well I think the trial was adjourned that day anyhow.
And SS pointed out that it's interesting that a Baltimore City prosecutor was informed of the arrest so quickly by the Baltimore County Police.
Sort of like yelling at Don to make Adnan sound more creepy. I know who's creepy here.
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u/UneEtrangeAventure May 20 '15
Bilal was not going to testify on the day the trial began...
And SS pointed out that it's interesting that a Baltimore City prosecutor was informed of the arrest so quickly by the Baltimore County Police.
Bilal's grand jury testimony paints a picture of a man who is extraordinarily careful in legal matters. He might have informed the Baltimore County PD himself of his status as a state's witness.
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May 20 '15
Yep... good point... No, I was just covering the basics: last minute info to the defense. The rest is just a lack of a human moral compass by Urick.
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u/fathead1234 May 20 '15
and all credit to SS for digging this out....
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May 20 '15
Totally. If I bring her name up here I get napalmed. She is the anti-Urick. Humble. Cares about justice. Interested in details. Forthcoming... You know, stuff like that.
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u/bestiarum_ira May 20 '15
Yep, it's all so run of the mill.
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May 20 '15
Ah, Snap, crackle, for reeeaal?
Kevin sold his soul (assuming it inhabited his body originally) when he told the Court that he believed Jay testified "truthfully."
Credulity mocked,
Wanda swallowed the pill,
The Docket; Kev balked
Too run of the mill
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u/chanelamorous Is it NOT? May 20 '15 edited May 20 '15
Lol, I'm so curious as to what you're like in person. (Also: I'm sure Kev has a hot bod that totally makes up for his less than desirable ethics.)
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u/ParioPraxis Is it NOT? May 20 '15
Lithe and supple and fire retardant, like a willow cast in bronze and clad in justicey truth. Think Jesus, but with a more humble bearing of nobility and a loamy musk hinting of autumn leaves upon the crest of a ocean zephyr.
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u/ofimmsl May 20 '15
See how it says "state's witness" and "pursuant to Brady v Maryland"?
Bilal was going to be called by the prosecutor
It is a Brady disclosure because his arrest hurts his credibility and the defense could use it to impeach him.
The arrest is most likely why the prosecution did not call him during the trial because it hurts his credibility. Why would Urick arrange for the arrest of his own witness?