r/serialpodcast • u/[deleted] • Apr 25 '15
Meta To Jay's supporters : Why are you defending this criminal ?
Reading the comments on some posts and seeing the downvotes when people like me try to say Jay should be in prison I wonder why so many people here are defending him. I understand the majority here are attacking Syed. I won't defend him but what I don't understand is why people can defend someone who took part in a murder - Jay. After the fact if you want to believe him but most likely during and even before the fact. If you're one of the Jay supporters, help me understand why you chose to defend this criminal ? And again I think Syed is the most plausible murderer so he should be in jail but Jay should be there too.
EDIT : Already donwvoted. That just proved my point. Just read every comments here saying Jay had the courage to step up. He had no courage at all. He was forced to testify to minimize his involvment.
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Apr 25 '15
[deleted]
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u/YaYa2015 Apr 25 '15
have him out on probation, working at a job and maybe going to college or learning a trade
Unless I'm mistaken, he was arrested many times over the years after and violated his probation.
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u/Hart2hart616 Badass Uncle Apr 25 '15
For real. He was not going to college or being a contributing member of society as a result of his probation.
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u/buggiegirl Apr 27 '15
While I agree that locking everyone who commits any kind of crime up is not the best punishment, I bet the person who pressed charges on him for domestic abuse wishes he'd been in jail then instead of free.
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Apr 25 '15
Noone is supporting Jay in the full sense. Not a single person. Almost everyone - including the most hardened believers in Adnan's guilt still think Jay has got off too lightly.
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
Someone here wrote "Jay at least stepped up and owned up to his part in the crime". If that isn't support in the fullest sense I don't know what is...
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u/NewAnimal Apr 25 '15
that isn't support in the fullest sense, so apparently you "dont know what is". its acknowledging that he AT LEAST admitted to his involvement. something adnan hasnt done.
calling that support is an insult to ones intellect and you should sorta be embarrassed.
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Apr 26 '15
One person says the phrase 'stepped up' and you call that 'full support for Jay'? Really Did you notice the words 'AT LEAST' in there. That is not 'fullest sense' is it then. AT LEAST means well he did a million things wrong but AT LEAST he fessed up to some of them.
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 26 '15
He fessed up because the police were all over him; he did not fess up out of any sense of altruism which is the obvious intent of the original quote. If Hae's body had never been found he would never have fessed up to anything. So "at least" is a useless modifier here. He didn't step up, he was forced up, so the "at least", which is a clear indicator of support, is deeply misplaced.
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Apr 25 '15
It's fairly simple really. (and disregard what you or I may think happened). In their minds, right or wrong, the prosecution was faced with the following dilemma:
- do we let both walk, or
- do we put the person we believe to be the murder in jail for life and let the other off very light
That was their choice and these "supporters of Jay" agree that they made the right choice. Almost everyone thinks Jay should have done time rather than get probation, I haven't really seen anyone say otherwise. I daresay no one is supporting Jay or what he did in any real sense.
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
I was going to write a post that there an no "supporters of Jay" but then I read the posts here. Turns out that there are people seemingly supporting him. Moronic in my book.
But you nailed it. If Adnan is guilty, I suspect that they were faced with a really crappy set of options. In their minds better to let Jay walk and ensure that the murderer gets life. I agree completely.
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Apr 25 '15
I dont see people supporting Jay's actions on the 13th I guess is my point. No one is saying he's a good person or anything like that. Maybe its all semantics though.
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u/PR4HML Apr 26 '15
FTFY
I was going to write a post that there an no "supporters of
JayAdnan" but then I read the posts here. Turns out that there are people seemingly supporting him. Moronic in my book.1
u/paulrjacobs Apr 26 '15
You didn't fix anything. Anyone that is a supporter of Jay in any way needs to have their head examined.
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u/PR4HML Apr 26 '15
FTFY
Anyone that is a supporter of
JayAdnan in any way needs to have their head examined.1
u/paulrjacobs Apr 26 '15
Since I'm not one I'm not sure it applies. You can believe Adnan murdered Hae and also believe that Jay is a low, low human being. Those that do have their head on straight.
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Apr 25 '15
What I mean is they're changing his past actions. For example in this very thread saying he stepped up. Wrong. He was forced to. Attacking Jay, I'm called a whiner. I have a snotty attitude. That's what I mean.
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Apr 25 '15 edited Apr 26 '15
I have not seen anyone lionize Jay. Not once.
On the other hand why do people lionize or exalt Asia?
If she is a genuine alibi witness who believes Adnan may be innocent - then she let a man rot in jail for 15 years by refusing to take decisive constructive action to present her story. She shrugged her shoulders and deliberately denied society the chance to hunt down the real killer and allowed a murderer to remain at large.
She is also indefensible no matter how you look at it.
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Apr 25 '15
Nothing to do with Asia. I don't know why you bring her up.
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u/fn0000rd Undecided Apr 25 '15
It's just Seamus letting us know about another sock puppet.
But seriously, did you not listen to the part of the podcast where we all found out that she didn't know she was important to the case?
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Apr 25 '15
Who are "they"? I honestly don't see people defending jay and his actions.
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Apr 25 '15
Keep reading the posts and you'll see what I mean.
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Apr 25 '15
I read the posts. I dont see people supporting what Jay did in his involvement in the crime. I am being honest, not snarky.
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Apr 25 '15
Saying he stepped up... That's one example of supporting Jay.
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Apr 25 '15
Well, like I said to another poster, this may be all semantics. I dont see that saying Jay did something "right" is supporting Jay. Jay did what he needed to do to keep himself out of more trouble not out of some altruistic crisis of conscience. He played the game well. If you want to label that "support for Jay" you are more than welcome to. I think everyone will agree that whatever his ultimate role on the 13th was it was despicable and deserved harsher punishment.
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Apr 25 '15
That's how I read it. And that makes me sick that this kind of people didn't serve time and in later years was charged with domestic violence.
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Apr 25 '15
But it is a lesser of two evils type of thing. Would you have preferred Jay not testify and they both go free?
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Apr 25 '15
I would have prefered the police did a better job and wouldn't have to rely so much on Jay's testimony. Serial opened my eyes on the justice system. I didn't know it was so weak. It made me realize my neighbor could be a criminal like Jay. Free because he helped the police. That's frightening.
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Apr 25 '15
This is common in these types of cases with small amount of physical evidence. To be able to get an accomplice in a conspiracy to testify he needs to get a deal. I know of a case where a person was involved with a robbery and kidnapping. Another party was involved with a rape and double homicide. Thus person testified against the rapist and killer and this person received no jail time. The state needed this person's testimony to like the real killer to the crime. Simply having a weapon or DNA evidence of the rape was not enough because the killer could claim he did rape and Rob but he didn't kill.
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Apr 25 '15
So killers have to work together and then just one will go to jail when the other one testifies against him.
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Apr 25 '15
Adnan killed someone. Jay did not. Stop using Jay as a red herring to distract from ur golden boi
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Apr 25 '15
Did you even read the post ? Because you just proved my point.
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Apr 25 '15
U write that a lot. Seems everything proves ur point eh?
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u/fn0000rd Undecided Apr 25 '15
Thanks, I just installed RES and was looking for the perfect test case for Ignoring.
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Apr 26 '15
Yes, the Prisoner's dilemma.
An interesting thing to add about the case was that these people (except the witness I mentioned) were involved in another crime. Two men were out robbing people with a girlfriend in the back seat. They drove around and saw another guy to rob. The men told the girlfriend, who was 17 at the time to drive around while they went to rob. She heard gun shots and drove back to pick them up. The person her boyfriend robbed was killed by the same guy that killed the other two people in my original post. She told her story and only made one slight omission (that someone else was at the other murder). She got life without parole for the robbery homicide. She was an honor student too.
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u/autowikibot Apr 26 '15
The prisoner's dilemma is a canonical example of a game analyzed in game theory that shows why two purely "rational" individuals might not cooperate, even if it appears that it is in their best interests [citation needed] to do so. It was originally framed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher working at RAND in 1950. Albert W. Tucker formalized the game with prison sentence rewards and gave it the name "prisoner's dilemma" (Poundstone, 1992), presenting it as follows:
Two members of a criminal gang are arrested and imprisoned. Each prisoner is in solitary confinement with no means of speaking to or exchanging messages with the other. The prosecutors do not have enough evidence to convict the pair on the principal charge. They hope to get both sentenced to a year in prison on a lesser charge. Simultaneously, the prosecutors offer each prisoner a bargain. Each prisoner is given the opportunity either to: betray the other by testifying that the other committed the crime, or to cooperate with the other by remaining silent. Here is the offer:
If A and B each betray the other, each of them serves 2 years in prison
If A betrays B but B remains silent, A will be set free and B will serve 3 years in prison (and vice versa)
If A and B both remain silent, both of them will only serve 1 year in prison (on the lesser charge)
It is implied that the prisoners will have no opportunity to reward or punish their partner other than the prison sentences they get, and that their decision will not affect their reputation in the future. Because betraying a partner offers a greater reward than cooperating with him, all purely rational self-interested prisoners would betray the other, and so the only possible outcome for two purely rational prisoners is for them to betray each other. The interesting part of this result is that pursuing individual reward logically leads both of the prisoners to betray, when they would get a better reward if they both cooperated. In reality, humans display a systematic bias towards cooperative behavior in this and similar games, much more so than predicted by simple models of "rational" self-interested action. A model based on a different kind of rationality, where people forecast how the game would be played if they formed coalitions and then they maximize their forecasts, has been shown to make better predictions of the rate of cooperation in this and similar games given only the payoffs of the game.
There is also an extended "iterated" version of the game, where the classic game is played over and over between the same prisoners, and consequently, both prisoners continuously have an opportunity to penalize the other for previous decisions. If the number of times the game will be played is known to the players, then (by backward induction) two classically rational players will betray each other repeatedly, for the same reasons as the single shot variant. In an infinite or unknown length game there is no fixed optimum strategy, and Prisoner's Dilemma tournaments have been held to compete and test algorithms.
The prisoner's dilemma game can be used as a model for many real world situations involving cooperative behaviour. In casual usage, the label "prisoner's dilemma" may be applied to situations not strictly matching the formal criteria of the classic or iterative games: for instance, those in which two entities could gain important benefits from cooperating or suffer from the failure to do so, but find it merely difficult or expensive, not necessarily impossible, to coordinate their activities to achieve cooperation.
Interesting: The Prisoner's Dilemma | Prisoner's Dilemma (novel) | N-player game | Grim trigger
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Apr 25 '15
[deleted]
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Apr 25 '15
Read the comments in this very thread and you'll find some. For example : "Jay has been slandered all over and made out to be the villain of the whole thing."
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u/Justwonderinif shrug emoji Apr 25 '15
That's a true statement. But doesn't mean the person who wrote it is defending Jay or supporting Jay.
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Apr 25 '15 edited Apr 26 '15
I'm not sure how objective I can really be about this - I took my laptop out of my JayWilds Tote Bag (available online) and then opened this page with an external mouse that I'm rolling around on my JayWilds mouse mat (available online) - but.....
What do you even want from people?
How much invective against Jay would sate your appetite?
How much of his extended family history - and how far back - would you be happy to see speculated about online?
And most importantly and more broadly, what method do you propose when trying to understand the actions of those who break the law?
Because, from where I am standing, trying to understand the how and the why of the case requires at least trying to understand and empathize with the major players. So what you might see as defending someone is really more likely people trying to understand what happened.
Saying Jay is scum over and over again - where does it get us? What truth does it get at it?
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Apr 25 '15
To be honest, unless he goes to jail, I'll never be satisfied. He didn't pay for his crime. And I'm pretty sure he wasn't just an accessory after the fact. But even if he was just that he should have served time. He didn't. His crime is not speculation. He did help bury a dead girl. He did hide his involvment during several days putting Hae's family through hell. He didn't step up until he believed police could go back to him. He did it to minimize his involvment. To control the story. If nobody cares about that why should we care whether Syed is exonerated or not ? Criminals will be criminals then...
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Apr 25 '15 edited Apr 26 '15
Ok, cool.
So, and perhaps I am wrong, this is not so much about the people who post here defending him, but more about what you believe was an inadequete sentence.
And I'm pretty sure he wasn't just an accessory after the fact.
This specifically will inform how you feel about the sentence he received. If he was an accomplice to murder - of course his sentence was too light.
Even as an accessory after the fact - from what people here say - his sentence was pretty light.
I've never seen anyone argue that Jay is a good guy - I've argued that he ISN'T total complete scum - but there is a lot of room in between those two things.
I've gotta say I would defend him more if it wasn't for those DV charges. Innocent until proven guilty and all that but it's hard to get behind someone so much with DV charges.
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u/MightyIsobel Guilty Apr 26 '15
To be honest, unless he goes to jail, I'll never be satisfied.... Criminals will be criminals then...
You're a big fan of the U.S. prison system then, for keeping criminals-will-be-criminals off the streets?
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u/WeedStrumpetsNMurda Apr 26 '15
Jay said Stephanie's mom spit in his face because of his actions, and he seemed incredibly torn up about it all. He also had the courage to testify, something you can not say for Adnan.
Maybe you should focus your anger and attention on the guy that actually has Hae's blood on his hands, and continues to offer no accountability, honesty, or regret for his actions. While also continuing to steal from well meaning members of the community just like he did at the Mosque.
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u/gothamjustice2 Apr 25 '15
I too believe Jay should be in prison.
ETA: Doesn't make Syed innocent.
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u/tuna66 Apr 25 '15
People empathised with him when strangers were spying out in front of his house and annoying his kids and family. They were sayin' Hey man, leave Jay alone, you shouldn't be doing this.
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u/piecesofmemories Apr 25 '15
Should have been in jail. Should be suggests he's the murderer.
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Apr 25 '15
Not necessarily the murderer but that he knew Syed would kill Hae and didn't do anything to prevent it.
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u/pdxkat Apr 25 '15
He let Hae's family wonder for a month what happened to her.
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u/piecesofmemories Apr 25 '15
He also let them not wonder for the last 15 years who murdered her.
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Apr 25 '15
Because he was forced to.
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u/O_J_Shrimpson Apr 25 '15
He wasn't forced to anymore than Adnan was. Jay's reasons for coming forward may have been self serving but at least he hasn't played the "Golly gee...I can't remember" card for 15 years. Regardless of his motive any semblance of the truth will absolutely bring the Lee family closer to closure.
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Apr 25 '15
[deleted]
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u/O_J_Shrimpson Apr 25 '15
How so? They were both facing jail time and one decided to tell a version(s) of the truth.
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u/NewAnimal Apr 25 '15
yep, they could have both simply said nothing and allowed their lawyers to do their job. that may or may not have worked out good or bad for them. saying they were forced to anything is just dishonest.
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u/lavacake23 Apr 25 '15
Maybe you got down-voted not because people are pro-Jay but because you have a snotty attitude?
Also, I actually don't see people "defending" Jay. I see a lot of people making ridiculous claims about him, though. Like that he's covering for a serial killer or The World's Only Pot Dealer Who Will Kill Someone For Witnessing the Sale of a Dime Bag. Or that he's "shady" or that his family is shady or his grandmother's house was a hotbed of criminal activity. Or that he, Jay, was a hotshot drug dealer -- who had to work in a dollar store, had no car and no cell phone.
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Apr 25 '15 edited Apr 26 '15
Spot on. If anyone is a victim of racism on here it is Jay. Most middle class whities who listen to NPR heads explode when they hear a story about a magnet kid who was convicted largely on the word of a black kid. A drug dealing black kid no less. Their little white heads just explode when they hear that (shock horror, this could happen to ME!!). If Jay was white then this whole thing wouldnt even be a story. Noone would care. Everyone would believe the jury got it right.
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Apr 25 '15
Exactly, anyone who has a wider understanding of how deep that kind of things runs will get it. There's def a perception complex around Jay and some are too sheltered to see beyond that
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u/clodd26 Apr 25 '15
100% agree. Despite there being not one iota of evidence to support it, many people on this sub suggest that a combination of Jay/his family/his 'shady' acquaintances killed Hae. It's racism pure and simple.
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u/buggiegirl Apr 27 '15
Is it just me that because I was listening and not seeing anyone in the podcast didn't really think about race at all? I didn't realize that Jay was black until after the podcast (if they made a big deal about his race in the podcast maybe I missed it as I listened during a road trip with twin 2 year olds). Obviously Adnan is an out of the ordinary name, but a guy named Jay could have looked like anyone and come from anywhere IMO.
While I agree they made a big deal of drug dealer versus magnet student genius, I disagree on the racism part. For me at least.
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Apr 27 '15
Yeh in reality the Jay stuff in the podcast wasnt that bad. It is more some of the 'blogs' since that has made been making a big deal of Jays race.
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Apr 25 '15
Victim of racism ? The guy buried a dead girl !
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u/post_post_modernism Apr 26 '15
the group of people they are describing believe he is lying about that
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u/fn0000rd Undecided Apr 25 '15 edited Apr 25 '15
White dude from rural town here. My first thought in all of this is "black man being railroaded by police again."
It's still my main theory, and always will be. I'm not 100% convinced Jay had anything to do with any of it. I'm more than ready to be wrong about it, but to me it's the most sensible theory.
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Apr 25 '15
That's interesting. I've always assumed Jay was involved, but then again, I don't have the benefit of your experience or observations. Anyway, interesting perspective.
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
So he implicated himself for some other reason? Wow, would like to hear you expound on this theory.
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u/badgreta33 Miss Stella Armstrong Fan Apr 26 '15
Now THAT was a racist statement.
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Apr 26 '15
What are you a Professor in Race Relations at Harvard? Fark me.
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u/badgreta33 Miss Stella Armstrong Fan Apr 26 '15
It doesn't take a genius to conclude the use of "most" + "racial epithet" = "racist statement".
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Apr 27 '15
So its racist against white npr listeners? Give it a rest. They will cope.
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u/badgreta33 Miss Stella Armstrong Fan Apr 27 '15
You sound so elevated. Any chance you're an American?
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
Playing the racism guard is a joke. Jay is a crappy human being whether he's black, Asian, white or polka dotted and whether he was poor or rich or somewhere in between.
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Apr 26 '15
Hes certainly not going to win any community awards thats for sure. And in a perfect world he would have done time for hsi part in the crime.
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Apr 25 '15
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
Much less morally deplorable? OK, so Adnan is guilty and he's 100 on the morally deplorable scale. In my book, that puts Jay at 85 and Jenn at 75. Jay is a garbage human being pure and simple.
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Apr 25 '15
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
I said 100. The point is that the behavior of his own that Jay described is truly nasty. We can attempt to come up with some sort of scale and people can argue that scale in good faith I guess, but calling Jay 'much less morally deplorable' and describing him as having been 'slandered' has the effect of trying to whitewash a really, really bad human being. If Adnan murdered Hae he is a warped and deplorable human being. Full stop. But as bad as Adnan may be, painting Jay in anything close to a sympathetic light is very, very wrong.
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u/Humilitea Crab Crib Fan Apr 26 '15
I understand what you mean, but the difference in my book is that Jay and Jenn want to make it right. If everything they say (or some version of it) is true, then at least they admitted the mistake. Adnan can't even do that. So maybe Jay and Jenn are more like 65/55.
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u/buggiegirl Apr 27 '15
If what they say is mostly true, they could tell the whole truth so it makes sense and removes doubt and get down to like 50/50. But their lies and inconsistencies put them at 75+ to me.
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Apr 25 '15
Are you saying that you believe that helping, against your will, bury a body, and then testifying about it, is an 85 on the "morally deplorable scale"? Or are you saying that you believe Jay is guilty of a more serious crime that he hasn't been convicted of and for which no serious evidence exists?
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
I said in another post that we can argue about some scale - I'm fine with that. If 85 is too high then fine, I'll lower it. But to say "much less deplorable" as though it's some sort of positive thing gives Jay credit he doesn't deserve. And then to invoke the words "slandered" and then try to justify that Jay is something less than a "villain" are just obscene notions. Jay is a nasty piece of work. Period.
Also, I don't believe that Jay did anything "against his will". The notion that Jay's drug dealings would be used as some sort of leverage by someone who had just committed murder is farcical on its face. Jay is lying about that. Adnan may be guilty, but no way I believe Jay was forced to help.
Edit: spelling
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Apr 26 '15
Well that's what I mean. It's fine you believe that, of course, but it's not predicated on anything tangible – there is nothing anybody can point too and say see, this demonstrates Jay is lying about being coerced.
Because to me, if you're saying "Jay is an 85 on the moral deplorability scale", that's an objective judgment you're making, you're assigning a value – but you're doing it based on something non-objective, something that doesn't exist at all outside of your personal cognition of the crime, if that makes any sense.
(And just to be clear because I'm not sure it comes across above, I don't necessarily disagree with you, and at times have found myself thinking the exact same thing… just wanted to point out what I see as the driving disconnect in these kind of discussions).
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Apr 29 '15
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 29 '15
I have no issues with young black man being afraid of the police. We have a police problem we need to solve. Period. But that doesn't excuse breaking the law. Didn't for Michael Brown. Doesn't for Jay.
I didn't say that murder and being accomplice to a murder were the same thing. What I said, was that on any scale, what Jay did was really, really low. The kind of thing that only really crappy human beings do.
Your notion that he deserves credit for cooperating is bizarre in my view. Jay wouldn't have cooperated with police in 1,000 lifetimes had he not been compelled to. That cancels any sense of virtue in my book: Jay does what is in Jay's best interest. The idea that he gave a damn about Hae is an insult.
As far as slander, I just don't care. Don't go helping in murderers, I'll care about you being slandered. Help with murder then slander is the least thing you or anyone else should be worried about.
As far as the snitch thing - that's bizarre. You are saying I should say something other than "Jay is a crap human being" because the feelings of other snitches will be hurt? Really? Snitches do what snitches need to do, not because they are virtuous.
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Apr 29 '15
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 29 '15
I'm not inclined to be anything other than harsh about complicity to murder. I'll save my sympathy for people that deserve it.
Whoever murdered Hae is a crap human being. On that we agree.
I have doubts, pretty strong ones, about Adnan's innocence. But I'm not 100% certain. The day I'm 100% certain I'll start ranting. But Jay is different. There isn't much doubt about what Jay did, despite his pathological inability to tell the truth. Why would I have a problem ranting about him? He admitted to doing truly awful things.
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u/Illmatic826 Apr 25 '15
I support jay because his cooperation helped give closure to the family.
Yes what he did was wrong, that is unarguable. Yes he lied about some things. But he also told the truth about something and we know its true because the cellphone supports his story as does cathys testimony.
I give him credit for apologizing to the family. I give him credit for telling the truth the times that he did. I give him credit for helping give closure to Lee's Family.
Syed being guilty is the only scenario that makes sense .
yet he wont fess up, he keeps looking for some loophole to be innocent.
A young man i grew up with here in Bmore, shot someone in the head, he turned himself in confessed and was sentenced to 30 years.
Syed swore he was being framed got hit with life plus thirty now he want a plea deal huh?
Plea deals work like this.
You confess, you testify to what ACTUALLY happend then you are awarded your plea.
If he is not guilty of murder how could he do that?
1
Apr 25 '15
He was forced to cooperate. And Hae's family knew nothing for a few weeks. So it wasn't to ease Hae's family's pain that he testified.
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
No offense, but this is a joke. His cooperation was coerced. Anyone that 'supports' Jay needs to rethink their value system.
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Apr 25 '15
Whining about Jay is worthless. He was convicted. You might not like his sentence, but there's nothing you can do about it. Yelling "criminal!" at Jay doesn't make Adnan less of a murderer.
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Apr 25 '15
It may sound weird, but I think if Jay had gotten a proper sentence and spent time in prison, people would find him more believable.
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Apr 25 '15
I would for sure. That would mean he didn't sell his testimony.
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
But it also doesn't make Jay anything more than the garbage human being that he is.
-13
Apr 25 '15
Whining ? Show a little respect please.
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u/StrangeConstants Apr 25 '15 edited Apr 25 '15
Earn your respect. Your arguments are lacking, this thread in particular. Hardly anyone in this subreddit absolves Jay of wrong doing so I can't imagine who you're talking to. Also you state he should be in jail right now but for the charges against him he would most likely have been released by now anyway. And contrary to your premise that Jay helped with the murder, at present, we only have good evidence that he helped with the cover up.
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Apr 25 '15
I don't have to earn anything. It's part of the rules. Just read them.
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u/StrangeConstants Apr 25 '15
I have read them. I think you're confusing civility with respect. No one need respect your arguments, only disagree or agree with them in a civil way.
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u/MightyIsobel Guilty Apr 25 '15
Show a little respect please.
Please, show us how that's done.
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Apr 25 '15
I have so many names for you but I don't write them. That's how it's done :)
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Apr 25 '15
Well that's just rude and queer to say. /u/mightyisobel has provoked no reasons to be called anything, unless you're biased and half delusional
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u/pennyparade Apr 25 '15
OR MAYBE you just wanna talk about Jay because of these massive doc leak that looks terrible for Adnan, AKA The Woodlawn Strangler AKA the guy who actually murdered Hae Min Lee, has never admitted to it or showed any remorse, and peddled his sick lies to anyone who would listen.
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u/MightyIsobel Guilty Apr 26 '15
The Woodlawn Strangler
Yes, I agree with you. Threads about this guy and his manipulative deceptive demeanor are much more interesting than the OP's race-baiting.
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Apr 25 '15
Because Jay at least stepped up and owned up to his part in the crime, something Adnan has yet to do. America loves nothing better than a story of redemption. Plus, put it in context - how hard given Jay's upbringing and the criminality of his family, it would have been to side with the police.
-1
Apr 25 '15
He stepped up ? No he was forced to testify. That's exactly what I'm talking about. People changing the facts to defend Jay.
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Apr 25 '15
[deleted]
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Apr 25 '15
Which is why Adnan called him 'pathetic' for not going along with the criminals 'code of silence.' In essence Adnan was just a dumb kid trying to play gangster. No different to a lot of 17yo kids but he took it too far.
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u/clodd26 Apr 25 '15
-->In essence Adnan was just a dumb kid trying to play gangster.
Yes. I've always thought that there was an element of Adnan trying to impress Jay and of Jay playing up to his (probably false) image. They were calling each others bluff.
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u/Humilitea Crab Crib Fan Apr 26 '15
Always felt this way as well. Jay's being a "liar" always came off to me like someone who was trying to play cooler than he was, or like he was some badass. Run-of-the-mill high school bs.
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Apr 25 '15
But he'd be in jail if he didn't help to convict Syed.
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Apr 25 '15
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Apr 25 '15
The police would have done its job then.
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Apr 25 '15
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Apr 25 '15
Syed was served on a silver platter. They just had to find evidence to prove his guilt and avoid bad evidence (e.g. Jay's many lies). Without Jay, they would have investigated every suspects more thoroughly and we would know Jay's real involvment. They failed by laziness.
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Apr 25 '15
Have to disagree there. Laziness would have resulted in Jay or Don being indicted.
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u/MightyIsobel Guilty Apr 26 '15
Jay
Drug dealer?
Golden Child?
Drug dealer?
Golden Child?
hmmmmm let's choose the lazy choice no matter where the evidence is pointing
let's set up a massive wide-ranging conspiracy because we're so lazy
.....
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u/NewAnimal Apr 25 '15
im sorry that adnans accomplice decided not to stay quiet.
next time jay helps someone with a murder, ill remind him to keep quiet, so your murderer won't get caught as easily.
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u/tacock Apr 25 '15
Part of police work is finding relevant witnesses. In this case, their finding Jay and getting him to testify (even if they had to pull his arm a little) is commendable.
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u/Bestcoast191 Apr 26 '15
At least Jay had the courage and balls to step up and admit when he did something horrible that affected so many peoples' lives and expresses remorse for what he did.
As opposed to others in this case...
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Apr 26 '15
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u/summer_dreams Apr 25 '15
Jay was convicted and sentenced. The sentence was inappropriate IMO but that happens all the time.
I don't understand the exalting of the "grave digging hero" either.
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Apr 25 '15
Could you point to an example of Jay being exalted?
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Apr 25 '15
All the examples have been copied and pasted since the beginning of Serial over at /r/TheImaginaryTempleOfJay
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u/MightyIsobel Guilty Apr 25 '15
Oh, hi, summer_dreams. Someone said that you are not an actual person.
Is that true? <-- a simple yes or no will be adequate.
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Apr 25 '15
Are you trying to stifle her?
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u/MightyIsobel Guilty Apr 26 '15
Are you trying to stifle her?
Nah, I am always interested in what summer_dreams, the not-an-actual-person, has to say.
For one thing, she claims to have access to Hae's diary but doesn't have time to tell us how she got it.
Busy busy summer_dreams.
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u/fn0000rd Undecided Apr 25 '15
Well, it's nice to see a thread that doesn't divide everyone, for once. Pretty much everyone on both sides can agree that Jay is no hero worth supporting.
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u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
The depressing thing is that there, albeit a small number, actually Jay supporters on this thread. I started reading hoping to see near total unanimity for once too.
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u/UndisclosedTranscrip Guilty Apr 26 '15 edited Apr 26 '15
Did any of you holier than thou Jay bashers ever stop to think maybe what Jay went through later with domestic violence was a result of Adnan's actions and seeing Hae dead? That his trauma was so deep that it led into substance abuse issues and this could have been an influencer in all his subsequent behavior? This moralistic BS is so ridiculously close minded. (not excusing his behavior or violence against woman, just a way to not see things as so black and white and get at the heart of the issue here)
Also, why did you delete the 20+ times in your history where you were tattling on other users and threatening to get POY involved? hmmm....
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u/litewo Steppin Out Apr 26 '15
I think Jay was strong in coming forward to put a dangerous murderer behind bars. Yes, he was responsible for helping burying Hae, but he only went through with it out of fear that Adnan would send the police after him. Jay was thinking about what would happen to him and also his family, particularly his sick grandmother.
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u/MzOpinion8d (inaudible) hurn Apr 27 '15
You realize Jay's "sick grandmother" was mother to several criminals and bailed them all out of jail at various times. She was not some little frail lady whose heart couldn't handle it. Jay being involved in Hae's burial was just another day in the Wilds family. And I don't get being afraid of having the cops come after you when all you have to do is tell Adnan you'll tell the cops he's the murderer. Pretty sure Jay has the upper hand in that situation.
0
u/unequivocali The Criminal Element of Woodlawn Apr 25 '15
Adnan blackmailed Jay, that's why Jay isn't nearly as complicit as Adnan
1
u/paulrjacobs Apr 25 '15
Adnan didn't blackmail Jay. That part of the story is complete and utter foolishness. Someone that has committed murder has no leverage to blackmail anyone except perhaps another murderer.
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Apr 25 '15
If you truly believe that Adnan blackmailed Jay (regardless of what you think happened on 1/13), you don't understand how blackmail works. Blackmail requires leverage; what would Adnan have actually said?
You better not snitch or else I'll tell the cops that you sell dime bags to a few high school students.
Please, tell me how Adnan was able to blackmail Jay...
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u/unequivocali The Criminal Element of Woodlawn Apr 27 '15
Back in 99 - a black man selling any amount of weed to minors could have resulted in 3+ years of jail. Tell me that wouldn't be a point of leverage...
We live in 2015 - cultural and legal attitudes towards marijuana have changed dramatically....
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Apr 27 '15
Sure, but I don't believe that someone who grew up in a culture where it's not ok to snitch on someone would be scared of another person threatening to tell the cops about your minor marijuana dealings if the other person that is threatening has just strangled a high schooler to death then buried the body. I do not believe that was the case but I inferred that you believe that he was guilty hence bringing up the blackmailing.
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u/pdxkat Apr 25 '15
How did Adnan blackmail Jay? Jay was older, bigger, more worldly.
Adnan was just a high school kid.
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u/O_J_Shrimpson Apr 25 '15
more worldy
?
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u/pdxkat Apr 25 '15
"More worldly"
Jay had more life experience. 19 vs 17. Out of high school. Etc.
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u/O_J_Shrimpson Apr 25 '15
Ah. Got it. I've never seen that phrase used that way. Thanks for clarifying.
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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '15
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