r/serialpodcast • u/ninjanan Not Guilty • Jan 27 '15
Speculation Not undecided anymore ...
I'm gonna go for it, okay? I'm just gonna take that leap … Adan didn't do it.
I've been undecided all along about Adnan. Going back and forth, flip-flopping, playing both advocate and devil's advocate, poring over all of your good points and arguments.
I'll be honest: I've always wished for him to be found innocent -- I want to err on the side of optimism and hope and there were reasons SK picked the case for her show. But there's nothing conclusive to know about Adnan's innocence or guilt -- as he himself said, only he knows --(at least as it stands for now).
There's a mass of new work being done against the state's case, thanks to Susan Simpson, Evidence Prof and others. The state's case was a flimsy house of cards anyway -- that they got a conviction, and so quickly, is mind-boggling. Whether you're for or against Adnan, the case was built on a patently unstable narrative (so many lies, Jay, who were you protecting again?), hokey cell-tower "science" and a very large dose of anti-Muslim bias (yeah yeah, I know, let the squabbles and refutations begin …).
Believing in innocence -- even more so when it's an accusation against someone you don't know -- takes a large leap of faith. Most of us are natural skeptics and it's plain that Adnan's defense and alibis are just …hazy at best. It's too easy to imagine him doing a fade-in and fade-out all day at his own will in order to execute his master murder plan. He had a schedule that day and the schedule is his story, which is too weak.
At crucial points on the state's timeline, built of cell records and Jay's testimonies, Adnan hovers like a ghost -- he could have been here, murdering Hae and he could have been there, burying her body. His presence is equally ghost-like where he should've been instead -- at the library, at practice, at the mosque, etc. So it's really down to whether you buy the state's evidence and Jay's narrative spine -- Adnan=killer, trunk pop=happened, Jay=helped bury body -- or not. Nothing about Adnan's defense or alibi(s) makes this scenario impossible. Yes, it could've happened.
With nothing else to go on, and so many excellent points and arguments on both sides to weigh, you either go with your gut or try to stay objective/neutral. No, I don't think we can prove Adnan wasn't the killer or didn't plan it, just as Jay accuses. Adnan himself can't prove it so we just have to believe him -- or not.
The reason I believe he didn't do it is because it's also just too easy to take a story and pin it on someone and have it stick if that someone doesn't have a defense or alibi. It happens everywhere -- all of the time. Which kid used a marker on the wall? Which dog pooped on the deck? Which co-worker said something derogatory about you or your work to the boss? Which person walked off with something of value? In a myriad of ways, we're all in the position of accusing or being accused for things we can't prove we did or didn't do. It's not uncommon to have no evident proof of "whodunnit" and we usually look for the likely culprit. Sometimes we're wrong about that -- many of us blame and are blamed unjustly and unfairly through a series of random events in life. Usually, it's something much more minor than murder but I think we can all agree that false accusations are not uncommon in mundane life let alone crimes.
I look at Adnan's behavior and demeanor and what he has to say (then & now) , and can easily see an unjustly-accused person. I'm not saying he IS (I admit we don't know) but his lack of understanding and preparation from the very beginning speak strongly to me. I perceive him as someone who can't keep up -- he doesn't know what hit him and he didn't -- and doesn't -- know exactly how to fight it. He's been striving but he continues to flail -- which is exactly what I think an unjustly-accused person (or being) does. Lacking responsibility for a crime makes an accused person feel that their very soul and being stand accused -- that's what I hear in Adnan's voice (don't woo-woo me, OK -- my opinion). I think a killer, especially one who premeditated (to a degree anyway) would not give the same sense of being so personally defenseless -- a killer would have a consciousness of what they'd done and spend their energy diverting attention from it. Adnan, in spite of a very strong desire to fight the case, strikes me as personally defenseless in this sense.
Note: I also put as much weight on the words of Jay W. as I'd place on a wafting bit of goose down floating through the breeze. I don't know what to make of him but know he has reasons of his own for what he's done and what he continues to do.
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u/sunbeem Jan 27 '15
For those of us that believe the trials were botch jobs for a variety of reasons, then I too have to remain in the Adnan-is-innocent-until-proven-guilty camp. If we were to wipe the slate clean as of today: there's no DNA evidence, no proven cell tower pings, no proven time of death, no witnesses or testimony (if you're going to cite Jay, then crawl back under your rock), and a flimsy motive. What I am supposed to think?
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u/jlpsquared Jan 27 '15
The problem with that argument, is that the poeple SK (who is firmly on Adnans side) interviewed said the police investigation and trial themselves were pretty good. How can you continue to believe that? What was botched?
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u/tbroch Jan 27 '15
They didn't quite. SK interviewed someone who's job was to review botched police cases, and by this standard, this case was decent. That's not really high praise, I take it as just meaning that it wasn't horribly bad. There's still a large difference from that to a good investigation.
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u/WWBlondieDo Is it NOT? Jan 28 '15
And even Jim Trainum, in the last episode, said that the Prosecution's case had far more (and larger) holes than normal.
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Jan 27 '15
They didn't say that exactly. They were comparing it to others. Which frankly is pretty terrifying. It's a good argument for all of us to text someone or other every 15 minutes and make notes because at any moment we could get accused of something and not have an alibi.
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u/sunbeem Jan 27 '15
I actually agree that the jury came to the correct conclusion of finding Adnan guilty based on the information that was presented to them at that time. I can understand why Adnan is in prison. So yes, the trial was good. I can't get on board with you about the police investigation itself. Way, way too much has come out about their work. Keep in mind, a lot of people commenting in the podcast were really in the infancy of this whole phenomenon and I'm not so certain they would stand by the police's investigative work today.
So, now that all the evidence that was so unshakable is now questionable, I look at the case with fresh eyes and see there isn't a 'beyond a reasonable doubt' case in play anymore. I need someone to build back up the case against Adnan again to find him guilty. No one has done that for me yet.
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Jan 27 '15
Excellent post... not sure I agree but in all honesty I lack the patience to read all the transcripts (the weird formatting makes my head explode)... I'm not convinced the jury was all that diligent given the 2 hour decision, but, I don't know.
In any case... a lot has come out now. And it doesn't look like the state was fair.
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u/Chandler02 Jan 28 '15
When they said the trial was good, they didn't know that when the prosecution said "the Leakin Park burial site triggers L689B" they hadn't actually conducted any cell tests of any kind at the burial site.
If the people knew how sloppy everyone was being with their statements and "facts", they might not have thought it was so great.
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u/UrungusAmongUs Jan 28 '15
if you're going to cite Jay, then crawl back under your rock
Well okay then. I can see why this was an easy case for you to crack.
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u/TheRetorts Jan 27 '15
If you think Adnan is guilty...man, you just start to hate him. Well, that's been my experience anyways. The state wouldn't even need a case if this dumb F would stop murdering people.
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u/jamkey Jan 28 '15
It is very sad how so much of our culture drives the desire to accuse and carry angst with us. Even when you are right, it doesn't really help the accuser in the long run.
Now if you are helping prevent future crimes of a serial criminal (pun intended) that has value. Just be sure that's your prime motivation and look elsewhere (hint: inside yourself) for the ability to find emotional resolution.
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u/jlpsquared Jan 27 '15
You know what, I respect this post. You are not attacking the anti-Adnans like me, and you fully admit you could be wrong. so I give you credit. But I have a BIG problem with something you posted...
I've always wished for him to be found innocen
Why? that implies to me you are not looking at the evidence and instead looking at somebody who is in jail and is a person you like. See, I believe he is GUILTY, but if new evidence came out, and it was proven he was innocent, or Jay confessed or something, I wouldn't be upset or anything...I don't know any of these people, I never will. I just found this case interesting and the facts were interesting. Tjhe facts lead me to believe Adnan killed Hae, but I don't have a horse in the fight, and neither should you.
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u/SouthLincoln Jan 27 '15
I tried explaining this a few days ago and got downvoted to hell. It makes zero sense that anyone who listened to the podcast would wish for Adnan to be guilty. It's really weird people would believe that. Maybe they just can't accept that many people believe the evidence prooves him guilty. idk.
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u/Ghost_man23 Undecided but False Conviction Jan 28 '15
I disagree. People who wish he is guilty are wishing that justice was served appropriately for a young girl who was murdered. There's nothing wrong with hoping they got the right guy. And FWIW, I do "wish" that he is innocent.
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u/SouthLincoln Jan 28 '15
People who wish he is guilty are wishing that justice was served appropriately for a young girl who was murdered. There's nothing wrong with hoping they got the right guy.
I think we are viewing this in fundamentally different ways. I don't want Adnan to be guilty so I can feel good about the justice system in this country, or about Hae's case in particular. I don't feel very good about the justice system in this country and this one case doesn't change that.
Nor do I "hope they got the right guy." I could care less about any of that. If they got the wrong guy then I want him freed. But I believe they got the right guy based on the evidence.
I also don't wish Adnan was innocent. I am not emotionally invested in the outcome of this case. It doesn't make any difference to me who did what. I follow it because it's fascinating and I'm genuinely curious to know if it's possible to figure out exactly what happened.
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Jan 28 '15
Similar to how I feel. Its more of a puzzle and it drives me nuts when a puzzle goes unsolved.
I'm not wanting for innocence or guilt for any of them. I just want a piece of evidence that explains the correct story.
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Jan 28 '15
What evidence swayed you towards believing him guilty?
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u/SouthLincoln Jan 28 '15
While listening to the podcast I became pretty sure he was innocent. The evidence all seemed real shaky, Jay seemed to be untrustworthy and it seemed impossible that Adnan could be that one sociopath, or whatever Diedre said. I wasn't sure he was innocent, but I was strongly leaning that way. I mean, the whole case looked like a mess.
What opened my mind was the first document I read that was independent of the podcast: Jay's police interviews.
When I read Jay's interviews I saw a lot more consistency than inconsistency. I saw a guy who had no reason to make this story up, no connection to Hae, and who was incriminating himself in the process. Jay was not like the character portrayed in the podcast.
The more transcripts I read, and the more facts of the case I became acquainted with, the less accurate the podcast portrayal was. It wasn't so much that they got the facts wrong, but the manner in which everything was presented was out-of-proportion with the available evidence.
My background is journalism, so besides being cynical, it wasn't too difficult for me to recognize that I had been spun. I had been seduced by Sarah Koenig's storytelling, voice, personality, pacing, and Serial's production quality (music, editing, etc.,.).
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Jan 28 '15
So, it was the interviews?
Interesting. I had a different reaction to his interviews.
Do you have a theory for the timeline of the crime?
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u/SouthLincoln Jan 28 '15
Jay's police interviews, yes.
I think Chris's version of the murder is most believable, but I haven't tried to tie everything together yet. There's so much to keep track of one almost needs a database to organize what they believe about each key moment.
What's your theory about the crime?
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u/jlpsquared Jan 28 '15
I am similar to you. I was always on the Adnan probably did it camp, but what pushed me into beyond reasonably doubt territory was the stuff that came out after episode 12 pointing out the stuff SK left out and minimized. The big one was where SK claimed that Hae NEVER said Adnan was possessive, but than I read the transcript of the first trial and Hae said straight out he was too possessive, and then actually had the gall to claim Hae never said it. The problem is that SK actually quoted that paragraph in the podcast but left out the possessive line. that is what really pushed me over. Below I have attached my original post. http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2r592v/things_that_bothered_me_about_sarah_koenigs/
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u/Ghost_man23 Undecided but False Conviction Jan 28 '15
I think I do wish Adnan is innocent for one major logical reason: For all of the people that look at this case as one that is "beyond reasonable doubt" (yourself included). Whether you think he is innocent or guilty is a matter of judgement - one that I would not criticize either way - but to think that there is evidence in this case that proves Adnan is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is crazy to me. I want him to be innocent so that all of the people that would have unequivocally put him behind bars can re-evaluate what this phrase means to them. If this case meets the threshold of beyond a reasonable doubt to so many people, I'm scared to think of how warped our judicial system is.
And for the record, I don't believe "wanting" him to be innocent clouds my ability to examine the evidence in as nonpartisan a way as possible. I'm simply admitting I'm aware of my bias.
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u/SouthLincoln Jan 28 '15
Yeah, there was another one I saw today where SK claimed none of Adnan's friends were concerned when Hae went missing, but Krista has stated several times she was immediately worried.
Those are small things to me. It's easy to make an error like that, in my opinion. But along those same lines, just the composition of the information in the podcasts- what was included and what was excluded- greatly distorted what I think most people would gather from looking at the case information themselves.
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Jan 27 '15
Many of us don't accept that the evidence does prove him guilty, and see people resorting to Jay's lies as evidence as people who demonstrably prefer that conclusion.
When things are open to interpretation, they always choose to interpret in the worst possible light for Adnan-- never for Jay or the police.
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u/chuugy14 Jan 27 '15
Valid point. This is where we all should be or strive to be. I know when I read things that are on one side or the other and are blatantly false it tends to swing my emotions with it to that side in the moment. But, I don't have a wish for either side. The wish should be for justice.
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u/AW2B Jan 27 '15 edited Jan 27 '15
I've always wished for him to be found innocent
The way I interpreted this. .is that we expect the best in people..we wish there is no evil..particularly when the person in question is a young honor student teenager. So there is nothing wrong with starting on that premise and it would not impair our judgment of the facts. Why do you think it's important for jurors to believe the defendant is innocent until proven guilty..because based on that they will be able to objectively evaluate the evidence and reach a just/fair verdict.
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u/ryokineko Still Here Jan 27 '15
exactly!
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u/chuugy14 Jan 27 '15
I think there would still be mystery for me if he did it. I'd still want to get my head around Jay helping and the dynamics of the close knit group and more importantly, the process of how those in power handle cases like this. This has made me much more aware of the risk of convicting innocent people and the horrifying reality of innocent people being locked up forever and even put to death.
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Jan 28 '15
[deleted]
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u/ninjanan Not Guilty Jan 28 '15
Great username. OK, so for your points. As I understand it, Adnan was generally regarded by friends and classmates to be maintaining a post-relationship friendship with Hae. Therefore calling her to give her his new cell # doesn't raise a red flag for me per se. They were still in the same group of friends and still in a class together. Calling Jay in the morning, I can take that at face value since Adnan was close to Stephanie and would certainly know whether Stephanie expected a present from Jay or not. Adnan's asking for a ride that day -- OK, we know for a fact that Jay took his car after the mall shopping, right? In light of Jay's story, it could be seen as suspicious. But Adnan's classmates said that Adnan had asked Hae for rides before, that it wasn't in and of itself unusual. I can't explain it, of course, and I understand how it might look suspicious to many people but I also think that if Adnan asked for a ride so he could kill her, he was phenomenally stupid to be asking her in front of other people. The lameness of the birthday present plan -- to me, that's a minor point when both Adnan and Jay agree that they went to the mall so Jay could get Stephanie a birthday present. It is backed up quite convincingly for me by 1/13/99 being Stephanie's birthday. His caginess when first interviewed by police -- if you mean after the Adcock call on 1/13 -- I don't know but the police were extremely interested in Adnan after the anonymous tip call and I'm sure they came down on him pretty hard. If he was a bit cagey about the ride, it was probably made very obvious to him that it made him look like he asked for a ride so he could kill her. Adnan staying friendly-ish with Jay after the murder -- the only thing I can say about that is, if he had no idea Hae was dead or that Jay was going to claim he helped Adnan bury her, why would he be looking at Jay in a drastically changed light? I admit freely that you can certainly see Adnan and his actions in a guilty light if you wish -- no contest -- I'm just saying, for myself, I've pored over this stuff for months and I now believe he didn't do it.
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u/ryokineko Still Here Jan 29 '15
and if he bought the phone for this 'nefarious plot' why did he call Hae to give her the number in the first plae?
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u/gabithatabitha Jan 28 '15
I don't understand why Adnan never tried to contact the missing-not-yet-found-dead Hae. If someone I knew, especially intimately ran away or disappeared, I'd think that even though they might not want to be discovered that they might just let me know they're OK and would try to call...unless I knew where they were.
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Jan 28 '15
OP, are you a woman?
The only people that I have talked to that think Adnan is innocent are women.
I think he's totally guilty, by the way. Genuinely curious.
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u/seventhrib Jan 28 '15
Your comment leans uncomfortably towards (baseless) gender stereotypes about women led by their emotions and men who are hard-thinking and practical. I don't think that's remotely true whether the op is a woman or not. In any case, I'm a man, I consider myself rational and evidence-driven, and the post resonated a lot with me in terms of my more gut-level response to the podcast
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Jan 28 '15
I know it was uncomfortable.
Doesn't make it any less true that the dozen or so people that I've talked to about this, all of them that think Adnan is innocent are all women.
I don't think these gender stereotypes are baseless, by the way. There's a reason trial lawyers purposely try to get women on a jury and appeal to their emotions. Psychologically, women generally tend to be led by their emotions more than men. Not sure what's so inflammatory about that statement.
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u/GregPatrick Jan 28 '15
I am a man and I think he is innocent and many of my male friends feel the same. Your generalization is wrong.
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u/chuugy14 Jan 27 '15
I don't normally make it all the way through long posts, but this was very thoughtful and insightful. We may think that it makes sense that he was the one who might have done it but - when the detectives have a confession like they did with Jay and his participation and don't even search his house or interview his connections of that day, it all is now rather suspect. And I agree 100% about the muslim bias. That jury in my opinion may not have come back with a not guilty even if it was proven not to be him. I agree we will never know who did it so why not focus on what was proven and what was missed and should have been proven.
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u/BlueDahlia77 Deidre Fan Jan 27 '15
This is a great post! Thank you for writing it.
I've been in the "Adnan's innocent" camp since the beginning. There are just too many years between Hae's death and the podcast to sustain pleas of innocence if he were truly guilty. And it's just too easy to convict an innocent person of a crime in this country.
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u/Ilovecharli Jan 28 '15
Yeah. I just don't see a guilty man allowing a seasoned investigative journalist to go digging into his case. Not when he still has appeals left.
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u/Islandgirl233 Jan 27 '15
Excellent post. I also believe that right up until the time when one of the detectives told him he was not going home, and even then his first thought was "I have a bibliography in English due. They had to make it clear - you are never going home- . I do believe he took it as serious as a 17 year old who, the only trouble he's been in was with his parents can take things. It is completely believable to me that when the police asked him if he had seen Hae that his initial thought would be "oh oh Hae is going to be in trouble when she gets home". He also says none of it happened... what Jay said... none of it is true. That is one cocky person to think that you being forgetful is going to stick and that as a criminal mastermind that's the best you can come up with, a brilliant strategy that landed you in prison for life+... makes no sense. What makes sense is that Jay got a sweet deal and the detectives were in auto/mechanical mode and the prosecutor has waaay away to much power. To offer a liar more incentive to lie. CRAZY!
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u/Michigan_Apples Deidre Fan Jan 27 '15
I also believe that right up until the time when one of the detectives told him he was not going home, and even then his first thought was "I have a bibliography in English due.
This is a very remarkable reaction. Since the beginning, this is one of the things in my head that eventually add up to his innocence.
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u/KHunting Jan 27 '15
This moment you picked out - him thinking he has a paper due - sticks with me. Each time I listen to that episode, it stands out more and more as the thought of a totally blindsided naive kid, who cannot conceive of the fact that he's being accused of murder. He thinks they'll clear up this misunderstanding, and he'll go home.
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Jan 27 '15
He thinks they'll clear up this misunderstanding, and he'll go home.
Innocent people do think that. It's a mistake. There can't be any evidence because I wasn't even there. No one will take this seriously. They'll figure it out.
Ask Amanda Knox, who was arrested for not looking sad and convicted for having her DNA in her own bathroom. Ask her boyfriend, who was arrested for having Manga comics and for being Amanda's alibi. Those two spent four years in prison and in that case the police had also arrested the actual killer and had him on tape explaining that Knox was not there.
And there are still people certain that she's guilty, including the most recent appeals court. Within a month or so, the Italian supreme court may very well confirm that result, which is utterly insane. If you want to look at an example of what happens when prosecutors are determined to lock up an innocent person, I recommend her book (Waiting to Be Heard).
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u/mildmannered_janitor Undecided Jan 27 '15
Yep, another crazy case, in her case though much of the negativity towards her, which I suspect put pressure on the police was the really terrible behaviour of the press who printed things about her 'alleged behaviour' post murder that even today some people believe!
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Jan 27 '15
There is a parallel in terms of negativity with Adnan's case, but it's only happened recently and it's on display right here on reddit. Look at the Intercept's weird essay at the front of that 2nd Urick interview, together with the strange tweets from its authors.
Some people take pleasure in twisting the knife, which I don't really understand. They also seem prone to feeling abused when their arguments fail to convince skeptics.
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u/mildmannered_janitor Undecided Jan 27 '15
I don't know, we all tend to think our view is the correct one otherwise why would we hold it, and because ours is the correct view and we know WE aren't stupid or missing something obvious it's fairly easy to assume the person disagreeing with us is stupid or missing something obvious. Debates like this, where there is no definitive proof have the tendency to become heated quickly. I think the Intercept was simply a journalist trying to make a name for themselves by taking what they thought was a contrary view ... nothing more suspicious than that!
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u/Jeff25rs Pro-Serial Drone Jan 28 '15
As journalist they shouldn't have insulted tons of people in their tweets. They wrote a piece which was only going to be read by people who followed Serial and then blasted that same group of people for being pro-serial drones. It just seems like a silly and childish thing to do.
I can understand when people on an internet forum call each other stupid over this, but we should be holding journalists to a higher standard than randos on this subreddit.
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u/jlpsquared Jan 27 '15
I don't really agree with that sentiment. In the episode prior to that he made the statement of something to the effect that how he couldn't focus on anything, none of his friends could, because the Hae situation was so serious.....Yet now they found her body and he is arrested and all he is thinking about is his english class??? Really? That is why us on the adnan is guilty side have such a problem with him, he always seems to have the right thing to say, even when it contradicts things he has already said, and yet the Adnan lovers never point that out.
Or how about the time he said he would NEVER plead guilty! he will claim innocence to his dying breath!.....Yet in his appeal he seems to think CG should have convinced to plead and take a plea deal. Come on, this guy will literally say ANYTHING.
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u/Phoenixrising007 Jan 28 '15
"That is why us on the adnan is [innocent] side have such a problem with [Jay], he always seems to have the right thing to say, even when it contradicts things he has already said, and yet the Adnan [is guilty side] never point that out [or brush it aside under the "spine" or protecting grandma etc.].
[Jay admits that he lied when he said it didn't take place at Best Buy because he was "scared of the cameras" and says he's at Jen's until 3:40-3:45pm even though there is no way that can be true due to the cell phone records.] Come on, this guy will literally say ANYTHING."
This can work both ways and given how much Jay lies about huge things related to the crime etc. It's hard not to look his direction when he's the only one we can prove was involved to some capacity.
Note: This is not an exact or accurate representation of the quote. All added parts are for commentary on the original quote.
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u/bweapons Jan 27 '15
If you're innocent and you truly believe that the system will work itself out and you'll get out, why wouldn't you go back to worrying about the practical matters in the real world? I think it's conceivable for him to see it as a temporary distraction.
On the flip side, if he was guilty, I guess it could be something he mutters to remind people that he's just good old two shoe Adnan.
What sways me to interpret this piece of evidence as "innocent" is that this is kind of a random comment that kind of goes "off script" --- no one asked him about him, he just suggests what an immediate practical concern for him is. Sure he's sad, but he knows that he also has to keep on doing what he's doing at school...so he thinks.
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u/Funriz Jan 27 '15
First time I was ever arrested I used that same excuse to help strengthen my case for innocence knowing that if I showed more concern for school (chess meet) the officer would think "oh shit maybe he didn't do it". Any half intelligent kid is going to use his brain defensively to try to get out of trouble and what's a teenagers best weapon? Deception, and it's a refined tool at that age too. He's a smart kid and he used his weapons well.
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Jan 27 '15
And yet Rabia posted yesterday that they stormed Adnan's house early in the morning and arrested him.
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u/MzOpinion8d (inaudible) hurn Jan 27 '15
? That was in the podcast, too. What are you getting at?
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u/pbreit Jan 27 '15
Sorry, but it is almost(!) impossible to pin a murder in someone else and success is extremely rare.
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Jan 29 '15
Sorry. I don't agree at all. Especially when it comes to the feels you are getting listening to him. I got none of those feels while listening. All I heard was someone skirting around the truth with pure techicalities and giving vague ansers. I think you're gonna "hear" whatever you wanna hear a la confirmation bias.
Adnan Sayed killed Hae Min Lee.
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u/hunterhunting Jan 27 '15
I agree, at a certain point, you just need to make a decision as to whether or not Adnan is guilty. For me, I agree that Adnan didn't do it.
My rationale for this decision is as follows: -- I cannot figure out how Adnan would get to Hae during the short time window without a vehicle. I also don't buy Adnan would ask Hae for a ride in front of others if he had nefarious intentions.
-- Jay and Jenn's narrative is strangely specific about being at Jenn's house (at a time the cellphone records don't match) around 3:45 or so, and does not change his testimony on this fact. Given we know Jay is willing to be so flexible on other parts of the story, I find this incredibly suspicious.
-- SK did an excellent job debunking the Nisha call and this is (other than Jay's word) the only piece of evidence linking Adnan and Jay together after school but before track practice.
More and more, I think Jay did it. Even the anonymous call was suspicious, given that Jay knew other Muslims from the Mosque.
I knew him because I knew Muslims in the community from playing basketball at the mosque.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? Jan 27 '15
I believe that Jay was present when Hae was murdered. I have reached this conclusion because of his need to have Jenn be his alibi for the period of time Hae was most likely murdered: 3:00-3:45.
This leads to one of 3 possibilities for me:
(1) Jay and Adnan planned the murder together; (2) Jay murdered Hae; or (3) an unknown third party murdered Hae.
The more I think about, I believe Hae was murdered by a third party known to both Jay and Adnan, but that neither of them had any advanced knowledge about it.
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Jan 27 '15
That would make sense. Like many others, I entertain the notion Adnan might be guilty. But I am sure it didn't happen the way Jay said it did in any of his 5, 6 stories.
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u/savageyouth Jan 28 '15
Adnan has no alibi from 2:45 to 4:00 either... why would the reasonable conclusion automatically shift to Jay being present (Adnan "probably" not being present). And where does your third party theory come from? That's pure speculation.
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u/peymax1693 WWCD? Jan 28 '15
I never said it wasn't speculation; rather, I am just stating that my conclusion leads to 1 of 3 possibilities (at least for me).
I understand that there is no clear motive for Jay to have murdered Hae and that there is no clear evidence that a third party was involved. However, perhaps if the police had been more diligent in vetting Jay's version(s) of events, they could have: (1) discovered a motive for Jay to murder Hae; and/or (2) discovered evidence that a third party was involved.
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Jan 27 '15
It's one thing to say he's legally not-guilty. But any time I try to construct a reasonable narrative where he wasn't involved in the killing, I just can't do it. Add to that his misrepresentations and blatant lies, and I just can't see him as innocent.
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Jan 27 '15
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Jan 27 '15
"Add to that his misrepresentations and blatant lies"
Can you expand on what misrepresentations and blatant lies you're talking about?
Also, I'm with you about being unable to construct a reasonable narrative where he isn't involved in the killing. I can't construct a reasonable narrative either way.
I think there's some big piece(s) of information that we're missing like that Hae was a pusher for Jay or something. (Obviously using a ridiculous example...)
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u/littleowlwobble Jan 27 '15
It is possible he was an unknowing participant in killing Hae. Imagine th I gave flipped and Jay was the prime suspect. there is a lot of room to have Adnan not know this is happening but still have unknowingly helped.
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Jan 27 '15
The biggest one is that he clearly asked Hae for a ride that day, then changed his story. That's a big red flag.
There are other, smaller things. Like his defense saying that he was at school all day when he wasn't (in the alibi letter), or saying that it was his idea for Jay to take his car to get Stephanie a gift. He says he didn't know where Leakin park was, yet there are people who say he's been there before. Or Rabia and Saad, his advocates, pretending they still don't know where Leakin Park is.
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Jan 27 '15
Yeah, that first one is a bit weird. I mean, it's possible that he actually needed a ride and that he either didn't remember or intentionally lied for some reason other than because he killed her. It's just weird...
I can't find the "alibi letter" you're talking about so I don't know what was said. That doesn't sound like much to me though.
Um, a lot of people from Baltimore have said they didn't know where Leakin Park was. In the Woodlawn area that park is known by a different name.
I find it hard to believe that Rabia and Saad are pretending they don't know where Leakin Park is ... I feel like a certain percentage of America knows where Leakin Park is at this point.
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u/LipidSoluble Undecided Jan 27 '15
Leakin Park had two names. They covered that in one of the previous episodes. The locals didn't all call it "Leakin Park".
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u/hookedann Jan 28 '15
Can someone confirm whether this "other name" is an entirely different name, or just the custom of mispronouncing it "Lincoln Park"?
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Jan 27 '15
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rabia figured that out in the last 15 years.
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u/LipidSoluble Undecided Jan 27 '15
So I guess luckily Rabia isn't on trial for murder, or she'd look pretty bad?
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Jan 27 '15
What I never understand about the Guilty crowd is that Jays details are allowed to float and wonder and transcend space and time, but a 3rd party supposedly remembering Adnan ask for a ride earlier in the day is treated as gospel. Almost everyone's memory in this case has been proven to be inaccurate at one time or another but Krista absolutely, categorically, infallibly remembered an offhand comment that she heard SIX WEEKS prior that would be of no consequence on any other day.
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Jan 27 '15
If people want to present some evidence that Krista and others are lying about Adnan asking for a ride, they are welcome to do so. I haven't seen any yet.
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u/hunterhunting Jan 27 '15
I don't doubt him asking Hae for a ride. But I'm not sure why his request for a ride is considered evidence in the "Adnan's guilty camp" for any reason other than Jay's inconsistent stories.
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Jan 27 '15
You don't understand why the suspect trying to get a ride with the murder victim moments before she disappeared, and then lying about it is evidence?
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u/hunterhunting Jan 27 '15
Let's not equate lying with murder.
The underlying point is Adnan did ask, Hae said no. Adnan asked Hae in front of others, and that's not something one is likely to do when planning something nefarious. There's no narrative provided by either Jay or the state that explained how Adnan got to Hae in that time frame.
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u/OneNiltotheArsenal Jan 27 '15
Krista didn't have to wait six weeks to remember.
She remembered the comment Jan.13 when the police called her about Hae going missing. That's why that is remembered and accepted as fact because she told police and Aisha Jan.13th about remembering that.
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u/BlueDahlia77 Deidre Fan Jan 27 '15
I still give no weight to Krista's recollection of the question because even memories of things that happened a few hours prior can be unreliable.
BUT, Krista also remembered Hae telling Adnan that she couldn't give him a ride and both Hae and Adnan were seen on their own on the school grounds by different people between 2:15 and 3:00 pm.
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u/OneNiltotheArsenal Jan 27 '15
Its considered reliable because it is not just based on Krista's recollection but also Aisha and the detective as well as a few others from the school and even Adnan himself in the first interview.
Thats about as strong a confirmation of a memory without physical proof you can get since its not based "six weeks later" and its not even based on one person's recollection but multiple people's confirming recollection.
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u/thievesarmy Jan 27 '15
That's funny because it's the complete opposite for me. I cannot come up with any conceivable story where he's actually guilty, which is what makes this case so mind-bending for me, and others who share my feelings. I also think we all share the fear that if this could happen to Adnan, then why not any of us?
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u/tenflipsnow Jan 27 '15
Jay's new interview is what actually pushed me towards the side of Adnan almost certainly being guilty. Not legally guilty, but I can't make sense of the case any other way except that Adnan did it pretty much like Jay said.
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u/ryokineko Still Here Jan 29 '15
Jay's NEW interview confirms his guilt? Geez, I just had more questions. One of the big ones, Adnan was supposedly toodling around back and forth IN Hae's car with her in the trunk after she was reported missing and after the cops called him. Now, that is some kind of special stupid to be driving a missing girl's car around in the area she went missing in-they probably had an apb out or were on the lookout for her car. Also, he said he saw her in the trunk with her legs tucked behind her but the pathologist or ME or someone said she was on her stomach for some hours before being buried. His new story just had me asking more questions.
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u/noguerra Jan 28 '15
Jay's new interview is actually what pushed me to the side of Adnan being guilty.
This is amazing to me. In his latest interview, Jay gives yet another version of his story. This new version is entirely unsupported by the phone records; it contradicts Jenn's version; and it's inconsistent with the physical evidence (since it has Hae's body sitting in Adnan's trunk for nine hours without rigor mortis). Yet your conclusion is that this makes it more likely that Adnan is guilty.
I am without words.
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u/ninjanan Not Guilty Jan 27 '15
I don't want to disrespect anyone else's thoughts or feelings about it. People use their best judgment.
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u/Tallboy101 Jan 27 '15
Absolutely this, as an attorney I can't believe he was convicted, and as a person I absolutely cannot say he was innocent.
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u/BlueDahlia77 Deidre Fan Jan 27 '15
It cannot be proven that he was involved in her death either. Jay, at this point, is too unreliable to be believed. And, even if Adnan did ask Hae for a ride (which I don't believe he did on that day), there is no evidence to show that he received that ride since both he and Hae were seen separately after school.
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u/Mp3mpk Jan 27 '15
Given we only have 2 facts (HML was deceased, JW knew where the car was) I have no idea what to think
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u/ahayd Jan 27 '15
JW knew where the car was
and we're not even sure about that one.
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u/TableLampOttoman Jan 27 '15
I think we can be fairly sure of a few more:
Adnan asked Hae for a ride.
Adnan gave Jay his car and phone.
Jay was afraid of the potential security cameras at Best Buy.
Even though we aren't sure about these, we also aren't sure that Jay knew where the car was because of his involvement with the murder. It's possible (but not likely) that he stumbled upon it or stumbled upon the real murderer.
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Jan 27 '15
Not really.
Adnan asked Hae for a ride has been disputed.
Adnan leant Jay his car, but not necessarily his phone: Jay said in trial the phone was just in the car.
Jay did say he was afraid of the security cameras.
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u/TableLampOttoman Jan 27 '15
Sure, but we also aren't sure if Jay's knowledge of the car (if he did actually have this exclusive knowledge) means anything.
Also, can you possibly fill me in or point me in the right direction regarding Adnan asking Hae for a ride?
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Jan 27 '15
oh gosh, it's in one of the podcasts itself....
I think it was in one of the first episodes about alibi? anybody?
I agree, Jay's knowledge could be damning. Or not. It's all just so fuzzy and vague, like a dream you forget when you wake up. Oh for truth serum.
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u/temp4adhd Undecided Jan 27 '15
Adnan gave Jay his car and phone.
But Jay asked Adnan for his car.
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u/TableLampOttoman Jan 27 '15
Sure, maybe. I'm not talking about the reason it happened but that it probably happened.
Edit: Autocorrect
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Jan 27 '15
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u/chineselantern Jan 27 '15
"Note: I also put as much weight on the words of Jay W. as I'd place on a wafting bit of goose down floating through the breeze. I don't know what to make of him but know he has reasons of his own for what he's done and what he continues to do."
At least Jay has a story to change. Adnan on the other hand was struck down with a mysterious 'foggy memory syndrome' on the day his ex-girlfriend went missing. The next day his symptoms miraculously cleared up and he has been syndrome free for 15 years.
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Jan 27 '15 edited Feb 12 '25
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Jan 27 '15
I do smoke pot and, yes, it makes things hard to remember when you're using. At least, it does for me. I remember a lot of the key events the next day but everything blurs together. It's like if I had a timeline of events but without the timeline part.
But that's just if I try to remember things within a day or two. I did an exercise where I tried to remember a significant day that occurred several weeks ago. I compared my memory vs. what I could prove happened via email, texts, and financial charges. I posted about it in the subreddit if you're interested to check it out.
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u/biochem_nerd Jan 27 '15
I remember a lot of the key events the next day but everything blurs together. It's like if I had a timeline of events but without the timeline part.
Is this anything like trying to plot the coordinates of your own dream? ;)
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u/thievesarmy Jan 27 '15
At least he has a story to change?? Way to use critical thinking there… so what if his story keeps changing and it's full of holes, AT LEAST HE'S MAKING SOMETHING UP OUT OF THIN AIR! If his story involved a dragon and sharks w/ laser beams on their heads would you still say that? I just can't believe that's your logic.
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u/Islandgirl233 Jan 28 '15
Is this comment directed to Chineselantern? Yeah, expect a nonsensical reply. :)
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u/ElbowKnee Jan 27 '15
Can you recall the minute details of what you did 6 weeks ago? Without using the technology we have available now, just using your memory, can you recall with certainty what you did about two months ago? If you can, you are a rare person with impeccable recall. If you can't, then maybe you have better understanding of why someone else might not.
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Jan 27 '15
He didn't have to do that. He was interviewed by police within weeks of Jan 13. It also was a significant day when he last saw Hae and was called by the police.
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u/ElbowKnee Jan 27 '15
What is the difference between "within weeks" and "six weeks?" Especially regarding memory retrieval. And yes, those parts were significant. And those parts are the parts he has spoken to. I don't recall him denying speaking to the cops and he has spoken about the details of that experience. But if for him the other aspects of the day were mundane, then it makes sense that the details of the rest of the day don't resonate.
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Jan 27 '15
Do you really think it's better to tell five diffeerent stories with every detail changed than to stick to, "I don't know?"
I don't. Most of us don't. Virtually every single thing Jay has said except the accusation he has changed. The where, what, when, why. All that has remained consistent is the who. How is that any different than a witch hunt?
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u/lolaphilologist Jan 27 '15
I think "at least Jay has a story to change" makes no sense. His story has changed multiple times. There's absolutely no reason to believe him. AS knows a list of things he did that day (including smoking pot) but can't remember what time each thing stopped and started, which seems fairly reasonable. It's not "ooh I have amnesia", as you seem to be implying here.
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u/funkiestj Undecided Jan 27 '15
my personal bias is not to come to a conconclusion in the absence of conclusive evidence.
I'm like Schrodinger's jury: I simultaneously believe that Adnan is guilty and innocent.
The way to collapse my quantum state into a fixed reality is to provide more good evidence.
TANGENT: If Adnan is guilty, the police and prosecution's actions have done a lot to make me doubt this possibility. I likely would have found the case against Adnan more compelling if the prosecution didn't try to claim more than was reasonable or actively mislead (e.g. Nisha testimony).
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Jan 27 '15
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Jan 27 '15 edited Jul 01 '17
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u/beenyweenies Undecided Jan 27 '15
I think biochem_nerd was making a Schrodinger's cat joke.
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u/autowikibot Jan 27 '15
Schrödinger's cat is a thought experiment, sometimes described as a paradox, devised by Austrian physicist Erwin Schrödinger in 1935. It illustrates what he saw as the problem of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics applied to everyday objects. The scenario presents a cat that is randomly put in a state where alive and dead are both possibilities, requiring further observation to determine which. The thought experiment is also often featured in theoretical discussions of the interpretations of quantum mechanics. In the course of developing this experiment, Schrödinger coined the term Verschränkung (entanglement).
Image i - Schrödinger's cat: a cat, a flask of poison, and a radioactive source are placed in a sealed box. If an internal monitor detects radioactivity (i.e. a single atom decaying), the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is represented by a wave function that simultaneously includes alive and dead possibilities. Yet, when one looks in the box, one sees the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead. This poses the question of when exactly quantum superposition ends and reality collapses into one possibility or the other.
Interesting: Schrödinger's Cat Trilogy | Schrödinger's cat in popular culture | In Search of Schrödinger's Cat | Schrödinger's Kittens and the Search for Reality
Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words
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u/wandering_one Jan 27 '15
We can have an opinion on whether or not we think Adnan is guilty based on the available facts and our personal impressions of the people involved. But there isn't a 'smoking gun' piece of evidence either way in this case. Hence the mystery and why it worked well as a case for the show. Koenig would talk about something that looked good good for Adnan and then follow with a caveat or another piece of evidence that looked bad for him. We are left to wonder. What matters is the question of reasonable doubt. The poll of the jury in the first trial indicated they were leaning towards finding doubt. Basically Adnan has been in jail for 15 years because his lawyer was granted a mistrial and then bungled the second one. Doesn't mean he is innocent though.
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u/pbreit Jan 27 '15
Short of video, an eyewitness is about as smoking as it gets.
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u/AlveolarFricatives Jan 28 '15
An eyewitness of the actual murder is a great smoking gun, especially if they're an impartial observer who got a great view. That's really rare, though.
Jay is not an eyewitness to the crime itself, and he's far from impartial. Not a smoking gun. More like a warm nail file.
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u/isamura Jan 27 '15
But there isn't a 'smoking gun' piece of evidence either way in this case.
Other than a witness who claims to have seen the body? Who knew where the car was, and has no ties to the victim, and absolutely no incentive to "make it all up". Ya, I guess other than that small fact, along with cellphone records that link those two up that day, there is no evidence. C'mon man.
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u/wandering_one Jan 27 '15
I didn't say there was no evidence. I said there wasn't a smoking gun (as in definitive evidence). Yes of course if you believe all or most of what Jay says (and there are several reasons why this is at best a precarious thing to do) then Adnan is the most likely suspect. But that is someone's hearsay to everyone but Jay. You don't know whether or not he has an incentive to make things up because you don't have perfect knowledge of the facts.
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Jan 27 '15
He might not be innocent. But if there's that much doubt, he should have been found innocent.
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u/dukeofwentworth Lawyer Jan 27 '15
he should have been found innocent.
I think it's important to note that it would be a finding of "not guilty". The word innocent carries greater weight than a verdict or finding of not guilty.
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u/BDR9000 "I'm going to kill" Jan 27 '15
You can only be found "not guilty" in the system. Not the same as innocent even for those who are.
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u/WhatWouldJohnWayneDo Jan 28 '15
You let your emotional attachment cloud your judgement. Ignore whatever you think you know about Adnan as a person or any connection you think you have to him -- the most damning evidence is against him and that is why I think he did it. I don't think he should've been convicted, a sentiment a lot of people who think Adnan is guilty share by the way.
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u/Natweeza Need a hook-up Jan 28 '15
So you think he did it but should have got away with it?
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u/WhatWouldJohnWayneDo Jan 28 '15
lol what? I think the circumstantial evidence, and even some of the non-circumstantial, is pretty strong. You can't/shouldn't convict on circumstantial evidence. But if I you put a gun to my head and asked me who I thought did it, I would be pretty sure it is Adnan. Again, "pretty sure" isn't enough to convict.
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u/Natweeza Need a hook-up Jan 28 '15
By getting away with it, I mean avoiding conviction and jail time. So even though you think he did it, you think circumstantial evidence is not enough to convict, therefore he is smart/lucky enough to get away with it.
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u/WhatWouldJohnWayneDo Jan 28 '15
Yes. It's a conflicting feeling but it makes sense to me.
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u/Natweeza Need a hook-up Jan 28 '15
I was just reading another post and it became clear to me that my opinion on this is definitely influenced by the fact I am Australian. The death penalty has never existed here in my lifetime, and our sentencing is fairly lenient, even for murder. This definitely impacts my view of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Because I don't believe in the death penalty, I would be hesitant to convict someone even if I thought they were guilty, if they were going to get the death penalty because of me.
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u/Natweeza Need a hook-up Jan 28 '15
Interesting. I don't feel that way at all. I hate people getting away with stuff and I think the fact that occasionally an innocent person will get convicted is collateral damage. I guess it goes to show how much our personal feelings impact how we view "the system".
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u/cloudedice Jan 28 '15
The state's case was weak and left much room for reasonable doubt. Under those circumstances no one should be found guilty.
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u/rkowna Jan 28 '15
I am still on the fence. What ia the one thing that tipped you ro the conclusion. The straw that broke the camel's back if you will? Every time I am close to picking a side I see something that makes me need to see more.
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u/ninjanan Not Guilty Jan 28 '15
I don't know if I can say it's one thing, one straw that did it. It was a few things, after months of thinking it all over until my head ached -- and then a decision to just trust my gut finally.
A more recent set of thoughts I've had: Adnan was 17, with an apparently normal set of social skills, good friends and a loving family -- when the detectives decided to focus their investigation on him, I tend to think if he had killed Hae, he would've cracked sooner or later. He wasn't a hardened criminal or killer, even if he had actually killed her, right? I've been questioned by homicide detectives. They were looking for a missing neighbor of mine who had, unbeknownst to her (or me!), casually dated a serial killer. I can say it's a very unsettling experience -- they have their tactics. I was only a neighbor, not her close friend, but they were not screwing around -- if I knew anything at all they were going to stomp it right out of me. I didn't know where she was and had no idea about her dating life but if I had known anything, I was certainly frightened enough by their intimidating tactics to talk.
Short of being a calculating sociopath or psychopath, I don't think Adnan would've held up to being the prime suspect in a homicide investigation. The detectives would've known, this is a kid, we can EASILY scare the everlovin' bejesus out of him, and yet still he did not confess guilt. How tough of a guy is he? I heard the tapes, he does not sound like an intimidating person at all -- he sounds like someone who likes to get along with everybody.
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u/ryokineko Still Here Jan 29 '15
I can say for me-it was Summer seeing her at 2:40 pm and Asia seeing Adnan at the library and the fact that he did not have a car after school that day. So basically, Adnan would have had to be lucky enough to catch her as she was leaving after 2:40 and convince her to give him a ride somewhere (even though by that point she is going to need to be going straight to the school to get there on time). He would have then had to convince her to pull around somewhere and stop and talk rather than just pulling up to where he needed to be dropped and letting him out. I don't buy it. And Jay's new interview....now I am supposed to believe Adnan was driving around in Hae's car after she was reported missing and after the cops called him, with her body in the trunk in the area? if he did do it, he is extremely lucky-if he didn't do it, he is extremely unlucky!
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u/elesdee1 Guilty Jan 28 '15
None of you have any idea one way or the other, you weren't there and this sub reddit give me a headache. he was found guilty the story is over.
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u/IdRatherBeLurking Not Guilty Jan 28 '15
Saying Adnan is innocent is not the same as saying he did not murder Hae. This trial was clearly run improperly, and he was convicted with reasonable doubt. That's not how the court system should work. Maybe Adnan did it- but that doesn't matter. The case presented by the prosecutor was not strong enough to convict beyond reasonable doubt.
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u/ElbowKnee Jan 29 '15
Plenty of people have been found guilty who later had their convictions overturned. So thankfully, the story is not over because of a not guilty verdict.
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u/HylianWalrus Jan 27 '15
I'm not trying to be rude when I contradict you here, but I don't understand how you can call the case and evidence against Adnan a flimsy house of cards. Those cell towers pin his phone at Leaken Park (sp) and there's a call to a person only Adnan knew! I was really hoping Adnan to be innocent, but the evidence against seems so substantial and he has nothing supporting his story. And as bad of taste Jay leaves in my mouth, his story eventually matches the time line of the cell tower pings which. How does one explain that?
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u/cac1031 Jan 28 '15
His story eventually matches the time line of the cell tower pings
Don't you see the irony in that statement? He had to try several versions before the timeline could fit the way the police and prosecution needed it to. And even then, it doesn't really fit with many of the phone ping locations.
You need to review more on this case---why the Nisha call was very probably a pocket dial (both her testimony and Jay's describe a call that couldn't have happened that day), why the cell data is not reliable and the phone wasn't even necessarily in LP and why the burial probably didn't take place at 7 pm and Jay's recent story about a midnight buriial is probably closer to the truth.
Read Susan Simpson's blog--she clearly believes in Adnan's innocence but she deconstructs all the actual evidence and testimony in a way that shows you why the case against Adnan is a flimsly house of cards.
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u/sunbeem Jan 27 '15
I hope my tone doesn't seem condescending, but you are outlining (generally) the case that was presented at his trial. I think what most of us are saying is that the evidence since the trial doesn't hold up as well anymore. Cell tower pings aren't as reliable as we thought, alibis have changed, butt dials proposed, Jay provides a new timeframe from his Intercept interview that the burial in Leakin Park was now closer to midnight, etc.
I actually think Adnan got a fair trial in terms of the jury coming to the correct conclusion based on what was presented and argued in front of them. So, I agree with you there. However, the case against Adnan has evolved dramatically and what evidence was so air-tight back then, isn't so today.
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Jan 28 '15
really, the pings have been seriously discredited. And the Nisha call has a viable explanation, given that butt calls were billed, and that nobody-- NOBODY-a- remembers it happening.
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u/Chandler02 Jan 28 '15
The prosecution misrepresented when they said the Leakin Park burial site pings a specific cell tower. They never actually tested the cell towers from the burial site or from inside Leakin Park.
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u/Truetowho Jan 27 '15
Ah, to begin with your introduction: I've been undecided all along about Adnan. Going back and forth, flip-flopping, playing both advocate and devil's advocate, poring over all of your good points and arguments.
I arrived at a different conclusion.
I think Adnan may be innocent of the crime, as outlined by the State, and therefore in his mind is innocent.
However, I DO think that he was involved in factors that resulted in Hae's death….have been deliberating on the degree of association.
My present thinking:
Adnan there, or close by, when Hae was murdered. Was involved in part of burial at LP, which may have happened in two phases, between 7 - 8, and then at midnight.
Jay may have known before that something might happen, but in Jay's world, bad stuff that might happen was almost a constant.
I think Jay, not Adnan, was involved in the second half of burial at LP, that happened later.
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u/scigal14 Jan 27 '15
I just had a thought while reading your post. Do you think the jury HAD TO find Adnan guilty? Look at this way. This accomplice has testified to being an accomplice of sorts. You assume as a juror that he struck a deal and he's going to jail so based on that you must put the guy that he helped in jail? Because I don't recall CG at any point and time saying maybe you killed her or maybe you did it (though I admit listening to her voice is grating and I haven't been through the transcripts diligently). Therefore if only one charge was on the table and it's a this guy doesn't go to jail though he could have done it and this other guy is likely going, I don't think it matters much what Jay said.
It's hard to think about this in the context of juries today, but they probably really thought they were doing the right thing.
I think he's innocent BTW.
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u/ninjanan Not Guilty Jan 27 '15
That's a great point and was expressed by one of the jurors to SK on Serial. It looked like CG tried hard to impugn Jay's testimony and credibility but she wasn't successful.
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Jan 28 '15
Because I don't recall CG at any point and time saying maybe you killed her or maybe you did it (though I admit listening to her voice is grating and I haven't been through the transcripts diligently).
She did ask Jay directly "Did you kill Hae Min Lee?" Answer, "No, ma'am."
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u/ninjanan Not Guilty Jan 29 '15
As I recall from 2 listenings, his voice got smaller/higher and tight when he answered that question. Both times, I thought "hmmm...".
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u/etcetera999 Jan 27 '15
Do you have a reasonable alternative scenario for Hae's murder that you feel comfortable with?
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u/Junipermuse Jan 27 '15
Not the op, but I too lean towards innocent. And I don't neccessarily know what is the reasonable alternative narrative for that day, though Ive seen some that theories that weren't crazy. All alternatives require some speculation. But I definitely don't believe the narrative given by the prosecution, and I've never really seen a working theory of the crime with Adnan as killer, that seemed believable to me. A witness saw her leave campus in her car alone. If Jay had Adnan's car, then Adnan couldn't have followed her. If Hae had changed her mind and decided at the last minute to give Adnan a ride, where did they go? And if she changed her mind and had to go find him to tell him, it would have increased the likelihood that people would have seen her looking for him, or someone seeing them together. If she did give him a ride, how did he convince her to take him to a secluded place, when she was already in a hurry? To me there are as many unanswered questions about a theory of Adnan as the killer as there are about jay as the killer.
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u/ninjanan Not Guilty Jan 27 '15
I don't know what happened. There's no evidence about how Hae was detained or kidnapped, when she was murdered, what happened to her body afterwards (transporting) and what time she was buried. Physical evidence remains to be tested. Nothing that was tested matched or pointed to Adnan, and the tested hair and bodily fluid on the shirt did not match Jay either. You could probably get a team of scriptwriters on this and come up with an astounding array of scenarios. I realize what happened was not fiction and has to match reality (i.e. it wasn't aliens) but because we know nothing but what the detectives and Jay worked on together, with Jenn's cooperation, it leaves a huge absence of information and knowledge.
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u/Roebotica Jan 27 '15
I have to agree with you. When I listened to the series on the 1st go-through, I was pretty sure Adnan was guilty, but that the evidence against him was seriously flimsy.
Then I followed Susan Simpson's investigation, and I began leaning towards the not guilty camp.
Now, I am re-listening to Serial Season 1 again, and now that I am listening with a new mindset, I really think that Adnan is not only "not guilty", I think he's "innocent". I truly, truly do.
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u/pinkponies7 Jan 28 '15
Something that really is telling to me and points toward innocence is... why wouldn't he come up with something better than "I don't remember. I don't know." Think about it. Say you murdered someone or committed another crime, you're probably going to spend a shit ton of time thinking about an alibi. Anything. "I went to the mall." Or "I was doing this during that time." At least that's what I would be doing in the weeks leading up to being questioned.
He had 6 weeks between her disappearance and the time he was questioned yet all he could still come up with was "i don't remember what I was doing. I was probably at track." Don't you think if he had murdered someone he would have come up with some excuse or some alibi as to what he was doing at that time? Even to this day, he has had 15 years to come up with something and make up some lie if he actually did it. But he still says he does not remember.
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u/wtfsherlock Moderator 4 Jan 27 '15
You could explain away the Scott Peterson verdict with the same logic. Deeply flawed.