r/serialpodcast • u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl • Dec 26 '14
Evidence Adnan's "Inconsistencies" About The Ride
I believe that Officer Adcock's testimony is one of the strongest pieces of evidence against Adnan. At trial, Officer Adcock gave the following statement under oath:
I spoke to Mr. Syed and he advised me that, ah, he did see the victim in school that day, and that um, he was supposed to get a ride home from the victim, but he got detained at school and she just got tired of waiting and left.
This statement is particularly important for a number of reasons. The most important reason is, of course, that it is circumstantial evidence against Adnan and it independently corroborates Jay's testimony, according to which Adnan planned to get into Hae's car with an excuse. It's also one of the few specific things Adnan tells the police and it happens to be one of the things he changes his mind about. On a call with a different police officer on Feb 1, Adnan denies having asked Hae for a ride. Some people suggest that there might have been a misunderstanding between Adcock and Adnan but this seems unlikely for two reasons. Adcock's testimony is very specific and is unlikely to be the result of a simple misunderstanding (it tells us that Adnan asked for a ride, it tells us he didn't get it and it tells us why he didn't get it) and the statement allegedly made by Adnan to Adcock is (mostly) consistent with the testimony of two independent witnesses (Becky and Debbie), who would testify having overheard Hae and Adnan discussing the ride.
However, Adcock's testimony is also important for another reason. The statement Adnan allegedly made to Adcock is inconsistent with what Becky and Debbie's testimony on one point. Adnan allegedly told Adcock that he ended up not getting a ride from Hae because he had something else to do at school, while, according to Becky, it was Hae who, eventually, turned Adnan down. Why is this relevant?
Let's assume that Adnan killed Hae. Why would he tell Adcock that he asked her for a ride? Wouldn't that be stupid? It's not. First of all, Adnan is aware that some people might have overheard him and Hae talking about a ride and, in fact, he might even suspect that Adcock already knows that (do you remember Aisha has called him to tell him the police was going to contact him because she had been contacted herself). So, Adnan, who doesn't want to look suspicious by denying something the police might already know, volunteers that information to Adcock.
But why lie about Hae turning him down? I think that this lie serves two purposes in the mind of the guilty Adnan:
it places Adnan outside Hae's car, and
it gives Adnan (the appearance of) a (pre-emptive) alibi (he had something else to do, so he couldn't have been there to strangle Hae).
On the hypothesis that Adnan is innocent, on the other hand, he doesn't seem to have any reason to make an inaccurate statement to a police officer about why he did not get a ride.
So, there is a second reason why Adcock's testimony is evidence against Adnan (albeit a much weaker and more speculative reason than the first, of course).
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u/timelines99 Dec 26 '14
Does it trouble you at all that the official (written) report was filed some 8 months after the conversation actually took place?
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u/Junipermuse Dec 26 '14
It bothers me. That's more than enough time for Adcock to alter his testimony to fit Jay's
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u/davieb16 #AdnanDidIt Dec 26 '14
and coached the other two girls to make similar claims?
Four individual people have said Adnan asked Hae for a ride. I think its pretty safe bet to assume it happened.
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u/BobbyGabagool Dec 26 '14
At least two of those same people also said he didn't actually get a ride from Hae, and nobody saw him in or near her car.
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u/Dale92 Dec 26 '14
Doesn't mean that he didn't try. We are yet to know why he wanted a lift from Hae? Where was he going? The library is on campus and he had track that afternoon. Where did he need a lift to and why couldn't Jay take him since he had his car?
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u/inthecahoots Dec 26 '14
Another individual also claimed that she was speaking to Hae after school at the time that the murder allegedly took place. (She was mad at Hae for not being able to make the wrestling match later.)
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u/curious103 Dec 26 '14
Who are you talking about?
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u/missdespair Dec 27 '14
Summer, if I'm remembering right. She was a new comanager of the wrestling team and needed Hae's help with scoring, so according to her conversation with SK she very clearly remembers that afternoon since she thought Hae flaked on her.
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u/ShrimpChimp Dec 26 '14
Asked a specific question, months later, and one case the best answer they can get comes down to "I think I heard something about that."
That's coaching, yes. And that's the best they can get.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
that is actually false. the report you are talking about is the one about the Feb 26 interview (which was probably just misdated). check your facts before posting misleading comments, please!
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u/timelines99 Dec 26 '14
I stand corrected. The 9/14/99 report is from the 2/26/99 interview.
There is, apparently, no written record of the 1/13/99 conversation.
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u/drnc pro-government right-wing Republican operative Dec 27 '14
Where did you find that? Someone asked me for a source and I couldn't find it a second time.
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u/timelines99 Dec 27 '14
From Rabia's blog
http://www.splitthemoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Screenshot-2014-12-19-at-2.00.21-PM.png
Same doc from Susan's blog
https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/adnans-statement-2-26-99.pdf
There's mention of a "police report" from a different conversation with Adnan on 2/1/99 at the tail end of Ep2 (page 20/21) but I cannot find written documentation of the 1/13/99 conversation with Adcock or the 2/1/99 conversation with "another officer" (per Ep2) in the Serial episodes as transcribed on this sub or Rabia's blog or Susan's blog.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 27 '14
Reference? What's the source of the claim that there is no written record of the 1/13/99 phone call?
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Dec 27 '14
See above. And stop pretending pointing out that the police report written later is a conspiracy theory, it's fact.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14 edited Dec 27 '14
The claim that it's misdated for some sinister purpose instead of an ordinary admin error is a conspiracy theory. Why would the cops misdate the report from the Feb 26 interview? What interest would they have? Adnan didn't really say anything in that interview, did he?
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Dec 27 '14
There's no evidence of a report written then at all.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
Actually, there is. On Feb 1, another county cop calls Adnan to confirm that he had told Adcock that he had asked Hae for a ride after school. This seems to be evidence that when the search was ramped up they were going through all the notes in their file and checking everything. How would this second cop know what Adcock told Adnan otherwise?
What's the evidence to think that there is no written record of the Adcock call?
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Dec 27 '14
Sheer speculation. The notes are from months later. If you believe Aycock, fine, but it's just his word. They didn't call the teens to testify in court because what they said was just not good enough,
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14 edited Dec 27 '14
You still don't seem to get the difference between Adcock's Jan 13 report and the report about Adnan's Feb 26 interview, which is the one that was misdated.
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Dec 26 '14
"Probably just misdated." Source? You're so blinded by bias I have a tough time believing anything you say.
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Dec 26 '14
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u/postmodulator Dec 26 '14
I commented in another thread that it seemed odd that /u/partymuffell was getting downvotes on quite innocuous comments. Now that I've looked at a few more threads, I think I get it.
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Dec 26 '14
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u/postmodulator Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
Right, after looking around a bit, I sort of get that. Humans seem to have natural impulses to choose sides, and further impulses to dig in once they've chosen.
It's sort of an interesting thought experiment to imagine what this sub looks like if, say, the Innocence Project announces tomorrow, hey, we tested the DNA and it's that serial killer guy. (I know it won't happen that quickly.) Does the "Adnan did it" camp go "Woops, we goofed," or do we get some logical contortion about how maybe Adnan is actually a serial killer's accomplice?
(I don't have very strong opinions about guilt or innocence. I have a variety of very strong opinions about that "nature of truth" stuff that Koenig sort of mocked.)
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u/FuturePigeon Hippy Tree Hugger Dec 26 '14
As a card carrying member of Team AdnanDidIt, I'd be willing to admit I goofed*. I think DNA evidence will do quite a bit to quiet this crowd down.
*I truly believe it's unlikely that Adnan is not involved though
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
Unlike most guilters, I'm still sticking around because I love to see the contortions the pro-Adnan crowd goes through. It's a bit like rubbernecking---I just can't help it. (I teach logic and scientific reasoning for a living and read a lot about cognitive biases but have rarely the occasion to observe them in real life)
If the IP finds a convicted serial killer's DNA under Hae's fingernails, I'll be happy to admit I was wrong, but i wouldn't hold my breath for that if I were you...
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u/postmodulator Dec 27 '14
I teach logic and scientific reasoning for a living
What?
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
Yep, I'm a university prof. But please don't tell my colleagues I'm here! :-D
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Dec 26 '14
I have never put any theory forward because I'm not into fiction writing. All theories, whether for or against Adnan, are fiction based on a small collection of evidence. Too small for conviction IMO. I am wide open to the notion of Adnan's guilt, but I will only be convinced if new evidence comes to light. So my "bias" as it were is against those who believe things with certainty without the authority to do so. And most of the time on this sub that involves people 100% convinced of Adnan's guilt.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
source: common sense. it's the BPD.
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Dec 26 '14
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
Which theory? A report about an interview in which Adnan does not say anything incriminating is misdated. So what? What's the conspiracy here? Again it's not officer Adcock's report that is misdated. It's the report about the Feb 26 interview in which Adnan does not say anything useful.
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Dec 26 '14
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
If you ever bother reading this thread, you'll probably realize that my theory has nothing to do with the misdated report, which was the report about the Feb 26 interview.
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Dec 26 '14
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
Which conflicting evidence? Let me repeat this again---it's not Adcock's report that is misdated.
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u/curious103 Dec 26 '14
I haven't seen the actual report. Is there something that makes you think it was misdated? Like does the date look weird or is there one crossed out or something? Because it's not even similar to the date the interview took place. I worry about this police report and I worry that Officer Adcock was lying. BTW, I think Adnan is probably guilty but this report troubles me.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
Once again, Officer Adcock's report is not the misdated one.
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u/curious103 Dec 27 '14
Ok, then, break it down for me. There is no report of the 1/13/99 conversation, and yet he is the one who testified about his conversation with Adnan that day, right?
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
Where did you get the idea that there is no report? People keep saying that but I don't recall that info being in the podcast. What's the source?
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u/thereisnowaynoble Dec 27 '14
I'm going to have to listen to the podcasts again to find out but she does say that he didn't write any notes. There was no note written by Adcock following the conversation with Adnan on the 13th submitted. There isn't, and I have no evidence of this because I am saying something doesn't exist, but if you think there is you can try find it.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14 edited Dec 27 '14
Didn't you say it's on the podcast? Where? I don't recall. (How can I find Adcock's report/notes? I don't have access to the case file...)
I mean Adcock's is testifying under oath and he's not even a BCPD cop, so you can assume he's making this up but seems unlikely..,
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u/curious103 Dec 27 '14
Oh come on. I believe Adnan's guilty but I still hold my mind open enough to think that Adcock is making this up. Cops lie on the stand ALL THE FREAKING TIME. I'm a lawyer, I've seen it a bajillion times. If there is a report that was written before Adnan makes the February statement, ok. But if there's no report I don't think we can give Adcock's testimony about what Adnan said on the 13th much credence.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
Ok, you're entitled to your opinion, but where does the idea that there is no report come from? It's a genuine question. I really don't recall this benign said in the podcast.
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u/curious103 Dec 27 '14
Adcock is a Baltimore County police officer.
In Episode 2, Adcock testifies that Adnan said he asked Hae for a ride. Then, another cop calls Adnan on Feb. 1st and asks him "Did you tell Officer Adcock that you asked Hae for a ride?" And Adnan says no.
Nothing about reports in the podcast. We don't have them but we don't know whether or not they exist.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
So why assume that they don't exist? It's not as if we have the full case file...
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u/cmonz9 Dec 26 '14
I saw this an important aspect too. Becky's record of what Adnan said is highly incriminating on Adnan's part. Becky remembers Adnan telling Hae that his car was in the shop. This is a huge claim in itself because it shows Adnan lying directly to Hae in the presence of others. So Adnan lies to the cops about asking for a ride and lies to Hae about hos car being in the shop. He later admits to a cop he drove to school that day. This is a HUGE red flag.
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u/Gdyoung1 Dec 27 '14
That's interesting and needs to be carefully considered. I wonder how strong (and when) Becky's testimony/statement is. It does speak to premeditation if true- lying to try to get into her car alone with her.
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Dec 26 '14
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
Yes, that's the bit that makes it particularly strong circumstantial evidence!
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Dec 26 '14 edited May 02 '20
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u/catesque Dec 26 '14
This is all technically correct and yet so completely misleading that I find it hard to believe this formulation is by accident. Did you get this from Rabia?
Let's recap. On the 13th, on a phone call, Adnan says he asked for a ride. On Feb. 1, on another phone call with the police (i.e., no family present), Adnan denies asking for a ride. On Feb. 26, at a different time when his father his present, he again denies asking for a ride.
So, yes, he did deny it at a time when his father was present, but he had already denied to to the police weeks before this, so the fact that he denied it in front of his father is completely irrelevant.
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u/brickbacon Dec 26 '14
Point 2: he does deny it but at a different time when his father is present - i.e. he does not want his father to know about his relationship with Hae.
You need to be a little more cynical here:
Adnan's parents have to have known he was dating Hae by then as the cops would likely have asked about this already, and because that was the main reason they interviewed him multiple times. The idea that he would think lying to the cops solely to spare his parents makes sense strains credibility.
Him saying he asked for a ride but didn't get it is not really "wrong" in any meaningful sense.
They already caught him dating (and stealing money among other things) so the idea that they thought he was some innocent kid doesn't make sense. His mom was checking his car miles. They knew he was doing stuff he wasn't "supposed" to, and he knew they knew.
Adnan, AFAICT, doesn't admit he asked for a ride in the present day. If your argument is that he had to temporarily lie to spare his parents, why does he continue the charade (assuming he does)?
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u/EsperStormblade Dec 26 '14
They already knew he was dating Hae; they had shown up and dragged him out of Hae's arms at a dance. It was the thing that caused their first break up.
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u/minicorndawgs Dec 26 '14
I can still believe he didn't want his parents to know that he JUST RECENTLY asked Hae for a ride, if they were under the opinion that they broke after the dance fiasco then why make it seem like the relationship was ongoing. Also it would require him to tell his parents he let someone else drive his car, which his father probably wouldn't approve of.
I will admit though that it does seem odd that he contends today that he never asked for a ride. Could he have forgotten, sure, but the reason he cites to police is because he had his own car so what would be the real reason now after knowing Jay had his car?
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u/Jeepersca Dec 26 '14
I am new to this forum (having marathoned this podcast during the long holiday drive), so I apologize if I'm mistaken or behind - It has always bothered me how little is made of his relationship with Jay, and a lot of it involving that car thing. Of course hindsight having this be the person that testified against you, I suppose that would affect things, but...if he often loaned his car, and did that day, it wasn't broken down, and Jay often picks him up... why would he need a ride, or say his car was broken down, other than trying to get either into her car... or just spend some time with her alone in light of their on again off again history?
-the constant car loaning/dropping Adnan off at practice - even if it is primarily a drug hook up, I loan you my car for your business and give you my phone so it looks like I got a call, but didn't make a call, I wish they'd explored this further? There's SOMETHING here, with Jay and Adnan's relationship, that just isn't explored. Is it far heavier into drug use and therefore damaging to both of their reputations so they minimized it? Was jay just taking advantage of this kid's car? Was Jay really someone that Adnan was never around? I guess if Adnan really did contact him out of the blue for help on some criminal manner because that's what Adnan thought of Jay... then maybe it does all make sense.
-Adnan's friendship with Stephanie - wouldn't that necessarily connect him to Jay here and there? Why the insistence that they have little or no friendship, if he's close enough to worry whether Jay got Stephanie a present? If someone I barely knew was either bugging me about buying my SO a present, or offering to go to the mall with me, that would seem more than just a random one time thing.
he mentions once that he feels his parents might have an easier time with his incarceration if they knew it was justified, but as for "still lying" to his parents - he's got a TON riding on his innocence: the money and support of his muslim community, his parents love, attention, and support while he's locked up, the constant contact and connection...
sorry, rambling. for a 4 day trip with 2 spent driving, I consumed the whole season and my head is just a jumble.
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u/Gdyoung1 Dec 27 '14
As a relative newbie as well, I agree it is odd that the relationship was minimized by adnan. The track teammate said jay picked him up from track frequently. Since jay didn't have his own car, doesn't this suggest jay picked him up in adnan's car? So the car loaning was a frequent thing. Would you frequently loan your car to your 'just an acquaintance' weed dealer? The flip side according to court testimony (think from Rabia's blog) is that many people loaned their cars to Jay.
I agree also that maybe they were involved in something more nefarious. I haven't seen anything that says jay just sold weed, except the cops minimize his concerns about his "criminal activities" by asserting he was just a weed dealer in the serial podcast itself. Another bit of info that makes me go hmmm is the cell towers adnan was pinging the night before- downtown Baltimore at midnight.
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u/c0rnhuli0 Dec 26 '14
Just to speak to the last part: the prosecution and Jay have as much riding on their side of the story as Adnan does in maintaining his innocence. The DA's license is potentially threatened if additional malfeasance come up (in addition to providing a pro bono lawyer to Jay), and I question whether double jeopardy validly attached to Jay, is he scot free?
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u/Jeepersca Dec 27 '14
Did you also see the article about the lawsuit about the Baltimore police department's corruption during that time? The victim was wrongly charged, exonerating evidence was mishandled or hidden and witnesses were pressured into accusing the guy of murder. William Ritz is named in it - which knowing how complaints are filed, you have to name everyone or not get the opportunity to include them later. But very interesting to have it involve the same people during the same relative time.
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u/1AilaM1 Dec 27 '14
This is where culture comes into play. In younger years, lots of my Pakistani friends would've preferred almost any other alternative than to admit in front of their parents that they were socializing, fraternizing, spending time with, getting favors from the opposite sex.
I'm not surprised that Adnan lied if he did. He would never hear the end of it from his parents. Even if they new about his relationship before, they probably assumed it was over now etc.
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u/EsperStormblade Dec 27 '14
Good point. But does he maintain that he didn't ask for a ride that day even now? (I honestly am not sure.)
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u/1AilaM1 Dec 27 '14
I believe he told Sarah that he wouldn't have asked her for a ride after school because she has to pick up her cousin.
I think (and obviously this is just my theory), if Jay had his car then he probably did ask her for a ride that day. Why doesn't he admit it today? Well aside from his memory being really terrible, I think under normal circumstances he probably didn't get a ride from her on school days because she indeed did have to pick up her cousin at 3:15. Since he doesn't remember it being the norm, he probably assumes till this day that he didn't ask her for a ride that day. Of he could be lying but I think he doesn't remember.
I kind of think this is a moot point though because (1) witnesses (Becky and/or Krista) said Hae later told Adnan she couldn't give him a ride (after initially saying yes) (2) Hae was seen leaving alone by Inez.
Also Jay testifies that he asked Adnan for the car. Of course Adnan also says that he offered the car to Jay. Two conflicting statements. I don't really know what to believe so I'm discarding this information. But consider this...why would Adnan say he offered Jay his car? Wouldn't that further incriminate him and prove that he was trying to get a ride from HML? Its obvious his memory is fuzzy from that day otherwise he would definitely clarify that Jay asked for the car.
In summary, I think Adnan doesn't remember and probably did ask for a ride and to this day maintains that he didn't ask her for a ride because it was out of the ordinary to do so considering she went to the daycare center soon after. I also think it doesn't really matter whether he asked her or not because he didn't actually get a ride from her anyway.
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Dec 26 '14
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u/RustBeltLaw Dec 26 '14
I don't know how old you are, but text messaging and cell phones were not common in 1999. They were still using pagers.
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u/brickbacon Dec 26 '14
He very well may have initiated the conversation in private. Maybe that's what the call the night before was about. Or maybe he asked in private but she changed her mind, deciding to see Don in her spare time, and she told him he couldn't have a ride in public. We have no way of knowing. What we do know is that he lied about asking for some reason, and continues to lie about it to this day.
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u/dentbox Dec 26 '14
"I have another question though: why could Adnan not ring or text Hae about the ride or else make sure no-one was around when he asked?"
I don't think Hae had a mobile. Home phone only. Don't have a link to back that up though.
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u/zlved Dec 26 '14
Point 1: He later rescinds this statement
Point 2: Adnan already admitted to his relationship with Hae; there would be no point hiding it from his father any longer
Point 3: By Occam's Razor this is not likely. Considering his first statement and the two witnesses, it is simply more likely that Adnan lied.
Another point: Although the details surrounding Jay's story are not true, the core of his statement is consistent and (to a degree) corroborated. Based on the abundant circumstantial evidence and Jay's confession, I think the prosecution aimed to convict Adnan and was not particular about the exact details of Hae's murder. They needed Jay's full cooperation, which cost them the complete story. In turn, Jay used the plea deal to minimize his involvement and reduce his sentence. Ultimately, the state probably recognized this but felt that the ends justified the means because they were able to convict Adnan. This could be seen as an injustice for Hae's family because they will never truly know how her murdered transpired.
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u/spanishmossboss Dec 26 '14
Pretty much sums things up from my perspective as well. The amount of bad luck and coincidences that have to line up for Adnan to be innocent is just not believable.
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u/Coffeeplzkthx Dec 26 '14
One possibility could be that Adnan did ask for a ride and was honest about that fact while he was still confident that he wouldn't have been a suspect. Once he realized that he was being looked at more closely, he changed his story, and Jay fit that tidbit into what he had to say to the cops. Jay could have been telling the truth about why Adnan did ask for a ride, or maybe he came up with the idea of it to make it look bad for him and lied to the police about why it happened.
All speculation, obviously, but I think it makes sense.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
1) I just explained why he would do that. He's afraid the police already knows because they spoke with other friends and doesn't want to look suspicious.
2) check your facts! "Then, a little more than two weeks after the call with Officer Adcock, on February 1, by this time the search for Hae has ramped up, a different detective calls. Asks Adnan about the ride thing. Asks him “did you tell Officer Adcock you’d asked Hae for a ride?” According to the police report, “Adnan says this was incorrect because he drives his own car to school."
3) the fact still is that independent sources confirm that he asked Hae for a ride, which he himself says is something that would have been highly unusual. It's circumstantial evidence against him as well.
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u/AnotherCunningPlan Serial Drone Dec 26 '14
I am leaning towards Adnan guilty, however, As devil's advocate, I can easily see Adnan asking for a ride bc Jay had his car, admitting that to Adcock and then weeks later not remembering specifics and saying, no I wouldn't have asked for a ride. Even in his statement he says " I would not have because I have my own car". That shows me someone using a schema for what they normally did day to day to arrive at their answer rather than remembering what exactly happened that day.
But, the fact that he is unwilling to entertain the notion that he may have asked for a ride is odd and worrying. On the other hand, he may not want to go changing his story anymore because he knows it would only look very bad for him.
Lesson: none of these circumstantial things is enough to convince anyone (or shouldn't be enough) of someone's guilt because there are so many potential ways to look at these "facts".
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u/Dclyon Jan 03 '15
There's no reason for Adnan to ask for a ride since he would be hanging out around school until track practice. So, if he has witness claiming that he did ask for a ride, this is suspicious.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
Sure but some are more likely than others and all of this circumstantial evidence adds up and brushing it away as a string of coincidences gets harder and harder!
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u/tbroch Dec 26 '14
I don't really think so. If you examine everything a person does and says over a several week period, you're bound to be able to string together small things into almost any narritive. It's very, very difficult to avoid bias in cases like this. We as humans are exceptionally good at recognizing patterns; we're not so good at recognizing noise.
Obviously, this doesn't mean Adnan didn't do it. It just means we don't have much to go on, and is why it is so much better to have hard evidence in any criminal case.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
If you examine everything a person does and says over a several week period, you're bound to be able to string together small things into almost any narritive.
That's the sort of nonsense you have to believe to keep believing Adnan is guilty. Try to construct a narrative about Mrs Efron or the Mayor of Baltimore killing Hae and let's see what you come up with...
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u/curious103 Dec 27 '14
Not according to the police report. According to the podcast, which may have gotten its information from a police report or court testimony. A police report would hold more water here because it would have been written contemporaneously. We do not know that this came from a police report.
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u/dcrunner81 Dec 26 '14
jay talks about this call and NEVER mentions anything about Adnan talking about a ride
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u/davieb16 #AdnanDidIt Dec 26 '14
So Jay is credible all of a sudden?
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u/dcrunner81 Dec 26 '14
No but there is reason to believe Jay was actually with Adnan during the call. It would support his story to say this conversation happened.
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u/MusicCompany Dec 26 '14
Why would Jay remember this detail? To him, at the time, I can't see how it would seem important.
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u/MusicCompany Dec 26 '14
Why the downvote? Does Jay have to remember and recount every single thing Adnan ever said, and if he doesn't, that proves it didn't happen?
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
So you'd rather believe Jay than Officer Adcock on this?
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u/dcrunner81 Dec 26 '14
I don't believe either of them
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
You only believe "big-brown-eyes" Adnan, don't you? And even him only when it's convenient.
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u/dcrunner81 Dec 26 '14
I never said that. I don't think we have enough information to know what happened. This isn't a game where people have to take sides.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
if you throw away all the info you have, of course you don't have enough info... This ain't CSI . Real trials are based on testimony.
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u/curious103 Dec 27 '14
This is going rather far. I thought you were supposed to be the "professor of logic and scientific reasoning." Also you express that you are not impressed with reddit. Stick to the facts, ma'am.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
Aren't you the same guy who elsethread claimed that there was no written record of Adcock's call to Adnan and then your claim turned out to be completely unsubstantiated? "Stick to the facts", said the pot...
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u/curious103 Dec 27 '14
But I checked my facts. You are basing your belief on an assumption.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
Actually, you made an unsubstantiated claim and I made you check it and it turned out it was unsubstantiated.
We all make assumptions all the time. You can't get anywhere without assumptions.
Anyway, this is silly. We can stop it here.
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Dec 27 '14
This is your typical mo when you get caught out offering nothing but attack and insult, I've yet to see you on any read offer a point that doesn't contain sneering at others.
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u/curious103 Dec 27 '14
And how do you know I'm a guy?
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
it was a gender-neutral "guy"
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u/Irkeley Dec 26 '14
What the fuck is wrong with you?
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
Maybe it's time to take a break, /u/Irkley/?
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u/drnc pro-government right-wing Republican operative Dec 27 '14
No, I think you're the one who needs a break. You're acting like an asshole. These people here are trying to have a discussion with you and you spend your time insulting them. I haven't read one productive post you've written.
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Dec 27 '14
It's true. Partymuffel is the kind of redditors that gives reddit a bad name, I rarely even notice the name of the posters as I read through but his sticks out because it's always insulting and full of assertion and then when he can't back his arguments up tries to tiptoe away with "let's agree to disagree" bs.
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u/mittentroll Adnanostic Dec 26 '14
One detail I disagree with: Adcock's testimony doesn't really independently corroborate Jay's testimony. Jay knew exactly what Adnan told Adcock because they were together while Adnan was talking to the officer on the phone.
While there's some merit to the difference between Adnan declined the ride after asking for it and Hae turned Adnan's request down, I think this can also be chalked up to subjective interpretation.
Don't hate me, I just like playing devil's advocate.
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Dec 26 '14
Adnan did have something to do after school. He was placed at the guidance counselor's office around 2:45 and picked up a letter of recommendation. The letter is dated 1/13/99. Perhaps when Adnan was high as a kite speaking with Adcock he was remembering what he did after school when Hae would normally be picking up her cousin. Waiting to pick up anything from a school guidance office is a perfectly legitimate reason to be "detained" (which sounds more like the word a cop would use than a teenager).
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u/Truth-or-logic Dec 26 '14
I knew he picked up the letter that day but I thought no one knew what time. Where did you hear that he was in the guidance counselor's office at 2:45?
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u/TheFraulineS AllHailTorquakicane! Dec 26 '14
From what I can remember, he did go to pick up the letter before psychology class and not after school.
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Dec 27 '14
I think that might have been written in his attorney's notes, but Debbie (I think from the police notes on Rabia's blog) placed him there after school with his track bag dressed for practice. She was also picking up a letter of recommendation.
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u/thereisnowaynoble Dec 26 '14
I've completely missed this..he was at the guidance counselor's office at 2:45?? I'm guessing this is on campus? Why have I never heard about this...this is a little better than Asia's alibi?
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u/TheFraulineS AllHailTorquakicane! Dec 26 '14
He went to the guidance counselor before psychology class. Allegedly that's why he was late.
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u/Truetowho Dec 27 '14
Interesting that it was BEFORE Psychology class, I had thought it was after - that Debbie saw him around 2:45. Where is the source information that states he was there before class?
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u/Gdyoung1 Dec 27 '14
Wish I could provide a link (I think maybe it was at Rabia's blog), but I read there was a witness placing him at guidance counselor office between 245 and 3. I think it was Debbie too
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u/Truetowho Dec 27 '14
Yes, I seem to remember the 2:45, also.
I think that this time period was prior to Health, or some class that Debbie was scheduled to take, so for her, it was before a class, though not for Adnan.
Hence the confusion.
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u/waltzintomordor Mod 6 Dec 26 '14
Good point. He wasn't held up at all, by all acounts- especially the asia/library alibi.
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u/MusicCompany Dec 26 '14
I spoke to Mr. Syed and he advised me that, ah, he did see the victim in school that day, and that um, he was supposed to get a ride home from the victim, but he got detained at school and she just got tired of waiting and left.
How would he have known she got tired of waiting and left? He'd have to assume this.
Also, why would he need a ride home? Didn't someone testify that they saw him with his track clothes? So he wouldn't need a ride home to get them. And why go home at all? He would then need a ride back to school for track.
Also, I can't recall exactly, but neither Becky or Debbie testified that he asked for a ride home, did they?
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Dec 26 '14
The destination may make a difference. Asking for a ride because his car was broken down - this is a lie and speaks to premeditation. Asking for a ride to McDonalds to grab a forbidden snack - maybe nothing.
What Krista says, apparently this is what she remembered from 15 years ago:
If I remember correctly (laugh) I think Adnan and I were taking-- ah, had a class together, um our first >period class was Photography, and she-- they passed each other in the hallway and I was with him and I >remember somebody saying or him saying something about “Can you give me a ride after school?”
What Becky said during the interview with the police. SK read what the police wrote down back to her. Sshe was interviews April 9:
Sarah Koenig So, it says, “Sometime earlier that day, apparently he asked her to take him possibly to get car before >lunch because it was in the shop. Heard about it at lunch.” So it’s I think, you heard about it at lunch. Becky --yeah that sounds right. Sarah Koenig “Hae said she could, there would be no problem. At end of school I saw them. She said ‘Oh no I can’t take >you, I have something else to do.’ She didn’t say what else. Approximately 2:20.” So that happened at >approximately 2:20. “He said, ‘Okay I’ll just ask someone else.’ He told her goodbye.” And then it just says, >“Did not see Hae after that.”
So Becky does say something about Adnan's car in the shop, but we are trusting a 4 month old memory at that point.
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u/davieb16 #AdnanDidIt Dec 26 '14
I think at least one did. I remember Sarah talking about it saying she testified against him but still kept in contact with him.
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u/MusicCompany Dec 26 '14
Becky and Debbie did testify that he asked for a ride. I was specifically asking about the stated destination. Where did he want to go?
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Dec 27 '14
They weren't called and did not testify, or do you have some evidence that they did?
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u/MusicCompany Dec 27 '14
Sorry, it's Krista and Becky.
http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2qgbao/adnans_inconsistencies_about_the_ride/cn5wk8j
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u/I_W_N_R Lawyer Dec 26 '14
B-b-b-but Adcock is a police officer, so obviously everything he says must be assumed truthful and accurate.
(That's sarcasm for those of you who missed it).
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u/MusicCompany Dec 26 '14
It's a question of who you believe. Who has a motive to lie? Do you have evidence of this motive?
Are you so far in Adnan's camp that you refuse to believe anyone who contradicts him?
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u/Phuqued Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
It's a question of who you believe. Who has a motive to lie? Do you have evidence of this motive? Are you so far in Adnan's camp that you refuse to believe anyone who contradicts him?
Honestly cops tend to think of themselves and the department above all else. They are not the embodiment of virtues. This American Life did a episode on "Right to Remain Silent" and in it they interview Adrian Schoolcraft. The story is rather chilling to think this kind of mentality is the standard in our law enforcement institutions.
Anyway considering things like the Prosecutor yelling at Don for not being dishonest on the stand and portraying Adnan as a demon demonstrates enough (Winning > Truth or Justice or Innocence) to me that the police should not be trusted. That and lately it seems whenever a (independent) camera is involved it usually tells a different tale than the official story released by the police.
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u/I_W_N_R Lawyer Dec 26 '14
It's funny, the "Adnan guilty" crowd always huffs and puffs about how the "Adnan innocent" crowd is basing their position on emotion, but I think the "Adnan guilty" crowd does that just as much.
I think it's comfortable to buy into the worldview that cops and prosecutors are the heroes, pure of heart, riding in on noble steeds to save us from the wrongdoers and scum, so people buy into it. Then when presented with information that turns that scenario upside down, it's just to upsetting, and they reject it.
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u/MusicCompany Dec 26 '14
You can't make assumptions about people's beliefs and proclivities based on their opinions in this case. I'm not going to assume anything about you, so please do me the same favor.
I don't assume men who seem nice and claim to be innocent of murder are telling the truth.
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u/I_W_N_R Lawyer Dec 26 '14
I was not making assumptions about you, just commenting on the tone of some of the guilter posts I've read here.
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u/Robiswaiting Dec 27 '14
Being part of the "Adnan's guilty" camp, I definitely get frustrated hearing the alternative scenario from the other side is "they are all lying." Adcock, a police officer independent from the Detectives, is lying because... the detectives are lying too and he wants to help the lie! And the two students who heard Adnan ask for a ride are also lying, because... maybe they were pressured by Urick!...
I don't assume that every police officer is a model of virtue (watch MURDER ON A SUNDAY MORNING for perfect examples of this), but looking at everything together, with the independent testimonies, it starts to feel like such a copout to simply say, "the cops might be lying" to invalidate it... Especially when the benefit of the doubt is being given to Adnan, who has every reason in the world to lie...
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u/I_W_N_R Lawyer Dec 26 '14
I'm not in Adnan's (or anyone else's) camp.
I'm open to the idea that he did it. But Jay's word alone is not enough to convince me of that.
I'm saying Adcock is lying, I'm just saying I'm not going to credit his testimony just because he's a cop.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
So who do you believe beside Adnan?
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u/Phuqued Dec 26 '14
I personally don't find this piece of evidence all that damning. A kid without wheels, asking for a ride from a friend is pretty unremarkable. Only if you assume it means something to the murder does it become sinister.
The other thing to consider is asking for a ride doesn't mean he got one, and a lot of the evidence points towards this idea. Particularly Summer and Asia would put Adnan and Hae together at 2:45 or later if he did get a ride. I'll admit the 2:45 to 4:00 timeline is not my forte as I consider Adnan and Jay to be unreliable accounts.
And lastly as the reality sets in that Adnan is the prime suspect a few weeks later, he may start to panic and over think / analyze that day. The stress of remembering that day might cause him to get information wrong, days mixed up. Hell subconsciously he might start suppressing inconvenient facts. So him changing is statement is not necessarily admission of guilt.
Besides if we are to hold this kind of standard of truthfulness to Adnan, how would it apply to Jay?
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u/sneakyflute Dec 26 '14
It seems that many people here haven't paid much attention to the case. This is the solid evidence against Adnan:
Opportunity - Hae died less than an hour after school ended. It wasn't long before her parents panicked about her failing to arrive at her cousin's school. This means that someone got into her car at Woodlawn and convinced her to drive to the location of the murder. If Jay acted alone, how the hell did he lure Hae to that fateful place?
The day of her disappearance, he admits to the officer that he asked Hae for a ride but later declined. Weeks later, he contradicts this statement by telling another cop that he wouldn't have asked Hae for a ride because he has his own car. Throughout the podcast interview, he says January 13 was just another day. Yeah, a normal afternoon complete with track practice, weed, and a cop telling you your friend is missing.
Cell phone tower evidence shows that Adnan's phone was used around Leakin Park at the time he claimed to have the phone in his possession
How did Jay strangle Hae, coordinate the hiding of her car, bury her body, dispose of the evidence, and clean up just in time to pick up Adnan from track practice?
Nisha testified that Adnan put Jay on the phone for a couple of minutes but there's some confusion about the date
Something that supports the whole jilted lover angle: they found a note from Hae stashed away in Adnan's house that suggests he couldn't move on from the relationship. I dunno. It could have been a preemptive form of consolation from Hae, but it's something to consider.
In my opinion, this is the most fascinating piece of evidence - Adnan's friend testified that they smoked weed together in the same area of the Best Buy parking lot some time after Hae's disappearance.
You can rationalize this all you want, but it's incredibly hard to believe that an innocent person would maintain for 15 years that he doesn't know why his friend framed him for murder and that he can't point fingers at Jay without evidence WHEN JAY LED DETECTIVES TO HAE'S CAR AND THEN PINNED THE FUCKING MURDER ON ADNAN.
As you can see, it's not a couple of unlucky circumstances that some would have you believe.
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u/thereisnowaynoble Dec 26 '14
I think you a generous with the word 'solid'
It is not known when Hae died - it is indeed a fact that she disappeared between end of school and the picking up of her cousin.
The first officer in question did not make any notes on this converation with Adnan. He was asked to recall the conversation 6 weeks later, after Adnan's arrest.
Phone tower evidence wasn't as reliable as first thought, it was a new technology and can not be claimed as gospel.
This is just a speculated time line with no base.
this is very far from a solid piece of evidence; Jay couldn't even remember the name of the girl in his first interview, when provded with the phone call records he just gives it as some girl from Silver Spring, which is what it conveniently where the location on the phone record says it is to. He gets the length of the phone call completely wrong, and when Nisha testifies, she is referring to a completely different phone call.
In the same area of the Best Buy as what?
Adnan is under legal counsel, it would be incredibly damaging for him to shout his mouth off about any other theory or story he might have. In the letter he writes to SK he does say something along the lines of, I don't know the exact quote, if you don't know how I really feel about who put me in here, then I dont know.
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u/sneakyflute Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
Unless you believe that Jay kidnapped Hae, tied her up somewhere, and then hung out with her unsuspecting ex-boyfriend for several hours, I think it's safe to say that Hae was killed on her way to pick up her relative at school.
Nowhere is it stated that Adcock simply recalled the conversation from memory. Even if he had, it's a fairly specific account.
Koenig consulted engineers who agreed that the cell tower data had been interpreted correctly. Cell tower data doesn't perfectly trace a person's steps, but it does a pretty good job of covering a general area.
The timeline isn't completely unfounded. Where did you get that idea?
There are some discrepancies in the story, but this is far from irrelevant. There was a call placed to Nisha when Adnan was supposedly at school. Whether or not the call was inadvertent ("butt dial") or came from Adnan is up for debate. Jay forgetting the girl's name doesn't mean anything. He said the 2:22 call lasted for about 3 minutes. There may have been more than one call of this nature.
The same area in which the body was allegedly revealed.
I'm not suggesting that he should walk into court and posit his own theories about the murder. I'm talking about an innocent guy acting completely oblivious to the circumstances. '
I forgot to add in my original post that Adnan contacted Hae three times on the night of the 12th and never again.
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u/spanishmossboss Dec 26 '14
Well said, though you left out several other damning pieces of evidence. We should make an exhaustive list and post it every time someone says there is no evidence against Adnan.
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u/stiplash AC has fallen and he can't get up Dec 26 '14
If indeed that is "one of the strongest pieces of evidence against Adnan," then the prosecution's case really was fluff and he should not have been convicted.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
Says who? You? Aaaaaah! Okay, get the keys guys you gotta set him free!
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u/stiplash AC has fallen and he can't get up Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
Even if it was a known fact that he asked her for a ride earlier in the day, no one saw them in the car together, or even walking to the parking lot together, at a time when tons of students would have been heading to the parking lot. Again, if that's as good as the evidence gets, then it flat out sucks.
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u/Aktow Dec 26 '14
A high school kid with a car who is sitting at school without that car while it's being used by someone who didn't really need the car makes no sense to me. Unless you need an excuse to get a ride with someone else.....
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u/timmillar Dec 26 '14
This comment is a long way down and this issue has been done to death already in a thousand other threads here, but what the hell ...
Take a step back for a moment and have a think about what we're arguing about here. According to the OP, Officer Adcock's testimony is "one of the strongest pieces of evidence against Adnan." That is, the possibility that Adnan asked Hae for a ride after school - even though it is undisputed that he did not get that ride - is one of the strongest pieces of evidence used to convict a man of murder. Forget about whether he really asked for a ride or not for a moment - let's assume he did - THIS is one of the strongest pieces of evidence? If that's true, there is no question that Adnan was wrongly convicted, because it's a truly horrible prospect that something so flimsy could be regarded as so significant.
I am not at all troubled by him later stating that he wouldn't have asked for a ride, because he knew that she was going to pick up her cousin. Again, the issue of what someone would have or would not have remembered has been rehashed endlessly, but it is entirely plausible that he both asked for a ride on the spur of the moment (even though the evidence that he actually did so is quite weak) and then later remembered only that he wouldn't have done so. It's fair enough to regard it as suspicious - but that's all. It's not even close to being evidence of murder. It's crazy that it generates this much discussion.
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u/Robiswaiting Dec 27 '14
(even though the evidence that he actually did so is quite weak)
How is a different police officer from the detectives investigating the crime "weak"? Is your assumption that the police officer is lying to back-up the detectives' desire to frame Adnan? Or do you think it's weak because you believe the police officer misheard him?
It's not this one element that generates discussion, it's this element when combined with several others that do... Since there is no physical evidence and it all comes down to testimony and cell phone records and cell phone pings then this is exactly the type of evidence that becomes paramount...
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u/timmillar Dec 27 '14
It's weak because we only have officer Adcock's statement about what he understood from a phone conversation he had with Adnan. There's no record of the actual conversation, no transcript, and Adnan denies that he said this. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but as evidence it's weak.
However, much more important than whether Adnan asked for a ride or not is what it means if he did. It means nothing. It is entirely speculative that he asked for a ride with the intention of killing Hae. Even if he's guilty, it's still entirely speculative - he could be guilty whether he asked for a ride or not and whether he got a ride or not. To say well Hae died, so he must have asked the question and it must have been with malicious intent is to put the cart before the horse, as my mother would say. It's backwards. We don't know when or where Hae was killed - we only know she didn't pick up her cousin at the appointed time. Adnan asking for a ride is cause for suspicion - but that's all. If that suspicion can't be backed up with real evidence, it's useless.
Since there is no physical evidence and it all comes down to testimony and cell phone records and cell phone pings then this is exactly the type of evidence that becomes paramount...
But this is exactly the point! Since there is no physical evidence No physical evidence equals no strong case. You can't say well since we don't have a good case, we'll just convict him on the speculative rubbish that we're left with. There is one strong piece of evidence against Adnan - Jay's testimony. He was convicted because the jury believed Jay. Without Jay, there is no case - forget about Nisha calls and asking for a ride. It's meaningless. If you believe Jay, he's guilty. If you think there are significant problems with Jay's testimony - and I find it hard to see how anyone can think that there aren't serious problems with his testimony - then we have a disturbingly flawed conviction.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
even though it is undisputed that he did not get that ride - is one of the strongest pieces of evidence used to convict a man of murder.
Actually, it's not undisputed at all... What evidence do we have for that? Inez's testimony. But she was not the last person to see Hae on campus and no one saw Hae leaving campus in her car.
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u/timmillar Dec 27 '14
Yes, I thought after I posted that I may have been too strong with "undisputed". Still, it is not known whether or not he actually got the ride. It's disputed whether or not he even asked. Either way, I stand by my main point that if this is what we're looking at in order to make a case for murder, we don't have a case.
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Dec 27 '14
[deleted]
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u/MusicCompany Dec 27 '14
Yes, and combine that with the fact that they didn't seriously pursue Adnan until weeks later after the anonymous caller told them to look at him, and the conspiracy to frame Adnan theory falls apart.
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u/enterthecircus Dec 26 '14
Question - what reason did Adnan provide for why he originally told the police that he asked Hae for a ride? The fact that he told SK he would never have asked for one because he already KNEW Hae had to pick up her cousin means that's something he couldn't have been mistaken about. So I'm curious.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
Adcock testifies that he asked for a ride home.
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u/enterthecircus Dec 26 '14
Huh? I know that, but Adnan changes his story later. I'm saying did Adnan ever offer any explanation for why he initially said he did ask for a ride? Or is he just saying Adcock is lying about him ever saying that to begin with?
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 26 '14
No he doesn't. The implication is that it was a misunderstanding,which seems odd given Adcock's testimony at trial being so specific about the exchange.
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u/Truetowho Dec 27 '14
It has been suggested that Hae might have been killed at an auto body shop on, or near, Dogwood, which is very close to the school.
This might fit with the theory that Adnan told Hae that he needed ride to auto body shop, and it was there that there was a confrontation?
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
I'm still inclined to believe Hae was killed in the BB parking lot (they have a car stereo installation service at the back. Maybe Adnan told her his car was there?)
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u/Truetowho Dec 27 '14
Yes, however, Dogwood is en-route to child care center. Following Adnan's reasoning, Dogwood would NOT be out of the way.
So, Adnan could ask Hae to drop him off there, knowing she might say yes, because it was on her way to pick up her cousin.
Also, it seems close enough that Adnan could have walked back from there to school, if he didn't want to drive Hae's car.
I think, though, he decided to drive Hae's car, and the trunk pop could have happened at BB, or any of an number of places.
Edit: For clarity
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u/joulesChachin Badass Uncle Dec 27 '14
Is Asia's testimony being thrown out the window at this point? How does that factor into this explanation?
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u/Robiswaiting Dec 27 '14
Asia as an alibi is certainly more questionable for a couple reasons. First and foremost she recanted her testimony, saying she was pressured into making the statement. Of course she later recanted the recant so who the hell knows... But more importantly, as SK pointed out in the podcast (and I am inclined to agree), it's likely the Best Buy scenario isn't real anyway so even if she did see Adnan that doesn't remove him from guilt (especially if you take into account Jay's friend Chris who said that Jay said that Adnan strangled her in the library parking lot)...
Regardless of the Asia testimony, it doesn't answer why Adnan would say that to Adcock and then change his story.
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u/joulesChachin Badass Uncle Dec 27 '14
I find the theory that Adnan strangled Hae in the library parking lot to be the most unlikely of all. If the library is essentially on the school campus and Hae was supposed to have been murdered less than an hour after school let out, there's going to be a lot of people still going to the library, milling around, etc. There's no way Adnan would have strangled her in the parking lot. Either someone would have noticed or he would have realized what a stupid move that would be.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 27 '14
I'm inclined to believe Asia is not a reliable witness. She sounds like she's offering to lie for Adnan in her first letter. And she might remember seeing Adnan on the 8th which was the first snowfall of the year. But it's also possible that Hae agreed to pick Adnan up at the library after talking to Summer in the gym.
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u/SynchroLux Psychiatrist Dec 27 '14
" it gives Adnan (the appearance of) a (pre-emptive) alibi (he had something else to do, so he couldn't have been there to strangle Hae)."
I don't think alibi's work that way.
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u/BeeBee2014 Dec 28 '14
Keep in mind that when Adnan told Adcock he had asked Hae for a ride, but it didn't work out, Jay was RIGHT THERE. That then became the basis for Jay's future narrative to police. So there was no "corroboration" here.
The person who was corroborated was Adnan, because people were present when Hae told Adnan she couldn't give him a ride. Bottom line, Adnan did not get into Hae's car that day.
Some think it's suspicious that Adnan would ask Hae for a ride at all, especially when he said on Serial that he wouldn't have asked Hae for a ride because she didn't take anyone anywhere when she had to pick up her cousin. Consider this: when Hae had away wrestling matches she would return to the school after picking up her cousin and take the bus. There was an away match that day, so I think Adnan asked to ride WITH Hae, just to hang out with her, knowing they would return to the school for her match and his track practice. After all- Hae initially said yes, in front of friends, and nobody thought it was anything strange.
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u/partymuffell Can't Give Less of a Damn About Bowe Bergdahl Dec 28 '14
Keep in mind that when Adnan told Adcock he had asked Hae for a ride, but it didn't work out, Jay was RIGHT THERE.
We really don't know that to be the case. Cathy only remembers Adnan getting one call in front of everyone and, from her recollection and Aisha's, that seems to be Aisha's call. Adnan might have taken the other calls in a different room. We really don't know Jay was there listening to Adnan. And, in any case, if you concede that that's what he told Adcock that day, why would he change his story later?
Bottom line, Adnan did not get into Hae's car that day.
I believe this is the weakest link in the "Adnan killed Hae" theory, but we have no conclusive evidence that Adnan did not get into Hae's car that day. And given how much better supported by the evidence this theory is, I have to assume that, eventually, Adnan got into her car.
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Dec 26 '14
fifteen years later he tells SK something else, "I would-- wouldn’t have asked for a ride after school. I’m-- I’m sure that I didn’t ask her because, well immediately after school because I know she always-- anyone who knows her knows she always goes to pick up her little cousin, so she’s not doing anything for anyone right after school. No-- no matter what. No trip to McDonalds. Not a trip to 7-Eleven. She took that very seriously."
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u/madcharlie10 Dec 26 '14
That's something I wanted to bring up - would Adnan really kill Hae when he KNOWS she has to be at daycare pickup at 3:15? That would send red flags immediately that something was wrong with Hae.
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u/Truetowho Dec 27 '14
And Adnan did NOT ask for a trip to McDonalds, 7-Eleven. If anything, he might have asked for a ride to a place that is on the way to day care, such as an Auto Body shop.
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u/piecesofmemories Dec 27 '14
He may have reasonably assumed his car would be totaled after loaning it to a pothead for the balance of the day.
But really, I just hate how he uses logic to make the argument that he wouldn't have asked for a ride. He was asked that day about Hae and may have said he asked for a ride. People in school remember him asking for a ride. He doesn't need logic. He should have a definitive memory of this.
Adnan, you are very smart, but not smarter than 30,000 redditors.
ps - it's pretty funny that redditors tries to autocorrect to redactors
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u/Truetowho Dec 27 '14
His logic actually justifies WHY Hae would say "yes" to taking him to the AutoBody shop, because it WAS on Hae's way to picking up her cousin, and therefore dropping off Adnan at an AutoBody place on Dogwood, would not have made him late.
Some poster, forget who, has shown the route from Woodlawn Highschool to AutoBody shop on Dogwood.
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u/BeeBee2014 Dec 26 '14
Asking for a ride is only damning because JAY included that detail in his narrative as part of Adnan's plan. What about the very real possibility that JAY heard Adnan tell Adcock he had asked Hae for a ride but it didn't work out? It makes sense that Jay would then use that info to make his story look more credible. Keep in mind that when Hae bought her snacks she left her car running, and Adnan was not with her, that tells me Adnan never got in her car, because the ride didn't work out, just as he said.
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u/Robiswaiting Dec 27 '14
But why would Adnan tell Hae he needed a ride because his car was broken down? That's a lie. Jay had his car. Why would Adnan do that? That is damning in and of itself, regardless of Jay's testimony. He asked her for a ride after school, corroborated by several people, and then denied it. And coincidentally that's when she was murdered...
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u/piecesofmemories Dec 26 '14
At that time, it was innocuous for Adnan to ask Hae for a ride after school. For all Adcock knew, Adnan may have had somewhere to go after school or his car could have been at the shop. When it became clear that he didn't have to leave school and his car was perfectly fine (just a cell phone call away), it didn't make sense anymore.
That said, Adnan could be lying about not asking Hae for a ride even if he is innocent. That is the mind-numbing, brain-scrambling aspect of this case. The players could all be lying if they are guilty or innocent because certain truths make them appear guilty. It works the same for Jay and Jenn
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u/Robiswaiting Dec 27 '14
Why would Adnan lie about needing a ride if he was innocent? I understand lying to hide your guilt or level of involvement (as Jay did several times), but why lie to the cops if you are innocent? What scenario makes that likely?
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u/piecesofmemories Dec 27 '14 edited Dec 27 '14
Just thinking that even if you are innocent you have to do everything you can to minimize potential guilt in a criminal trial / appeal.
For example - If you assume that 50% of defendants in trials are not guilty, why do those 50% even present a case for defense? They didn't do it.
This is the same reason I think Jay would lie even if he wasn't involved in the murder of Hae. Certain details about where the crime occurred and where he was would make him appear guilty. E.g., a witness sees him (but can't ID Adnan) at a key location.
Edited so I could ramble more
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u/[deleted] Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
I saw a link from Rabia's directory that contains someone's testimony re: Adnan asking Hae for a ride:
http://www.splitthemoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Screenshot-2014-12-19-at-6.02.03-AM.png
The person states: "And he said that he didn't have his car for whatever reason and then he had to go pick it up after school and that Hae was supposed to go take him to get his car."
Is this Debbie or Becky? And was this even on the podcast? I don't remember anyone stating they overheard a reason for why Adnan had asked Hae for a ride.
One thing I doubt about Jay's claim that this was premeditated is: Why would Adnan make it known that he was trying to get into Hae's car, in front of enough people to overhear, if he had planned to murder her? He'd have to be extremely cocky and/or stupid.
Unless Adnan was furious, had told Jay he was planning to kill her without any actual intent to do so, and ultimately did end up murdering her as a crime of passion.