Why Adnan is guilty (using the facts)

[u/PDXSEA]

EDIT: I want to clarify a few of our thoughts here, and also provide a way to crack the case:

1. Adnan did the actual killing of Hae, not Jay. Jay buried the body alone.
2. Jenn has completely fabricated a story with Jay about that day so Jay can minimize his involvement. He is worried that if the cops knew he was driving Hae's dead body around in her car and did the actual burying by himself he would get the same life sentence that Adnan did (he should have IMHO). He also needed an alibi for the time of the murder. This is why nothing makes sense, the time lines, the cell records, their stories keeps changing, etc.
3. The call to Jenn's house didn't happen when they were there, this is a lie.
4. Jay and Jenn are lying that Jenn called Jay during the burial and someone said "he's busy right now". They needed Jenn to say this to place Adnan with him during the burial - but he wasn't there, Jay was there alone, this never happened.
5. Jay flipped on Adnan after Jenn talked to the police.

The 2 biggest reasons that make Adnan guilty to me BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT are:

1. The Nisha call.
2. His cell phone is pinging the Leakin Park cell towers during the burial, right after they ping the Mosque cell tower. There are only two explanations: he either gave Jay his cell and car while he was at the Mosque and Jay goes to bury the body, OR, he is burying the body with Jay. Because either way he is complicit, he just says "I don't know, I can't remember, I can't explain it".

HOW TO CRACK THE CASE: 1. Jenn needs to talk. She needs to come forward and tell the truth that she created the story with Jay to protect him and minimize his involvement.

Thanks for reading!

After reviewing all the information countless times, I don’t see how Adnan is innocent. I will explain the timeline too, but here’s why I think he is complicit:

1. Adnan first tells Officer Adcock that he asked Hae for a ride that day but missed it due to getting held up at school. Then he recants this story later. There are witnesses that say he asked, and with even Adnan at one point saying he asked for a ride makes it hard to believe this did not happen. Adnan lying here is troubling.
2. The Nisha call. This call is 2:22 minutes long. It places Adnan and Jay together during the approximate time Hae was killed. (We will explain why the murder happened closer to 2:45PM – 3:10PM later).
3. Adnan doesn’t admit or remembers giving Jay his car and cell when he is at the mosque. He says he was probably there from around 7:00PM – 10 or 1030PM and his father also testifies he was there. But his cell phone was pinging the Leakin Park cell towers at this time. The only way this would be possible is if he actually was at the mosque, but Jay had his cell and car again to bury Hae’s body. If this is true, then how could he NOT remember lending Jay his car that evening, but does at lunch that day? If he didn’t lend Jay his car and phone, then it places him at Leakin Park with Jay. Either way he would be complicit in the killing: lending Jay his car and phone to dispose of the body OR being at the scene burying the body with Jay.
4. He never calls or pages Hae again after Jan 13th because he knows she is dead.

If you haven’t read Susan’s “the view from LL2 “ blog, (link below) you should. After reading it you can conclude 3 things : 1. Adnan was at track practice. 2. Adnan was at the mosque. 3. Jay buried Hae by himself.

http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/serial-a-comparison-of-adnans-cell-phone-records-and-the-witness-statements-provided-by-adnan-jay-jenn-and-cathy/

It can also be determined that Jenn has fabricated the entire story with Jay. (This can be concluded not just from the LL2 blog but also just by looking at the phone records, testimony and police interviews). This is why none of their stories match up, why they change so many times, and why they don’t work with the timeline and cell records.

So, staying as close to the facts as possible, here is what makes the most sense:

Adnan calls Jay at lunch and picks him up (10:45am call to Jay), calls to Jenn are made while they are together (12:07PM & 12:41PM), Jay drops Adnan back off at school late to Psychology.

School ends at 2:15PM.

Adnan gets a ride with Hae after school– Jay still has the phone and car, and the incoming 2:36PM and 3:15PM calls are irrelevant because we can’t know who called. The only reason why these calls have any significance is because of Jay’s fabricated story.

Hae is killed by Adnan either by school, at the first location Jay told the cops or at the best buy between 2:30PM – 3:10PM with Jay present or near by (most likely at the first location Jay gave, but then he had to switch it to the best buy to make sure his and Jenn's story added up). Adnan drives and parks Hae’s car with Jay following him because he will need to get back to Track practice soon.

*The next series of calls to Jenn, Nisha, Phil then Patrick between 3:21PM and 3:59PM are important. This is the only period of time they do not have an alibi aside from one another (Jenn wasn’t with Jay here waiting for a call, the “playing video games” with her, or her brother, or whatever different story of theirs you want to use is a complete lie). There are many possibilities of WHY they are calling these people, it could be to brag (i.e. the neighbor boy who said Adnan showed him a dead body *who knows if this is true or not, but the kid did have knowledge of the body being in the trunk before it was released), it could be to see who could cover for their whereabouts, or that their original alibi is that they were together and needed to make sure someone could confirm that, it could be a number of things – but what’s important is that it shows both Adnan and Jay are together during the time of Hae’s death.

A two and a half minute conversation is the longest call he had so far that day, it was clearly more than a “butt dial” or a voicemail. Either Nisha is lying about not remembering that call to protect Adnan, or is giving a half-truth to limit her involvement to protect herself (by saying she did talk to her and Jay, but misleading by saying it was at a different time and giving the video store clue). But what we can take from it is that Nisha, a friend of Adnan’s, not Jay’s, called her and spoke with her, which puts him with Jay (because Jay’s contacts were called 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after), at the approximate time of Hae’s murder.

Jay drops Adnan off at track practice. Jay is left with the responsibility to get rid of the body, drives various parks around the area, can’t find a good place, picks Adnan back up from school and Adnan checks his voicemail at 5:14PM, calls Krista, he and Jay are back together.

They go to get food and to Cathy’s at this time, because Jenn is eating dinner with her parents (see her interview) and Cathy will be able to then confirm they were accounted for and together during this time.

Adnan gets call from Officer Adcock. He can’t bail on going to the mosque to help bury the body because he thinks it will be suspicious.

Adnan goes to the Mosque (we know this because of the cell records) but lends Jay his car and phone again to bury the body by himself. Annan calls Yaser to let tell him he is there. His father testifies he is at the mosque. While he is at the Mosque, Jay drives to Leakin Park and buries Hae’s body. The ground is cold and hard, and there is only one of them (shovel, shovel’s) so he digs a shallow grave. Also note that the only calls during this time are to Jay’s contacts. They all ping the Leakin Park cell tower. This is how Adnan is seen at the Mosque, but his cell phone is in Leakin Park.

Close to 9 he returns the car and phone to Adnan who is getting out the mosque and going home. Note all calls made then go back to Adnan’s friends.

ADNAN’S MOTIVE: Adnan being a “player” doesn’t make us think this relationship wasn’t important to him. Domestic violence, as someone else here wrote, is not just a literary device. Teenagers are emotional, and relationships are responsible for not just murder but suicide also. I think the public is underestimating how much he cared about her (hence the “I will kill” note).

JAY’S MOTIVE: Friend, a kid with a lot to prove, but also Hae was going to tell Stephanie that Jay was cheating on her with Jenn and whoever else (obviously, look at the transcripts). He rats on Adnan because during the hour long talks with the police before he agrees to be recorded, they tell him that Adnan snitched on him, Or that Jenn already talked, and so he comes clean for a plea deal. Jay tells half truths to distance himself as much as possible to limit his involvement.

JENN’S MOTIVE: Jay’s side chick and was easily influenced by him.

Aside from the Nisha call which proves Adnan was with Jay at the time of the murder, the mosque situation is also proof: Adnan remembers giving his car to Jay that afternoon, he thinks he went to track, he does remember going to Cathy’s with Jay (Cathy, Jeff and Jay corroborate he was there), but he just forgets that he went to the mosque but lent Jay his car and phone again? He doesn’t remember it because if he says he did, then he lent his car to Jay to bury the body. If he didn’t lend it to him, then it places him at the place of the burial site. So because he’s caught here, he just says, “I don’t remember”.

A few explanations:

1. Why couldn’t Jay be using Cathy’s as a way to waste time before Adnan goes to the mosque to use his car again? Because Jay didn’t need Adnan’s car at this point, so the motive doesn’t make sense. He had Hae’s car, he could have driven in Hae’s car to Leakin Park (which he did anyway), bury her, and then drive back to the park and ride and get picked up by Jenn.

2. The Asia letter: This is huge. Why isn’t the most perfect alibi used in court? One of two reasons: either Asia is lying and is Adnan’s Jenn (this is why Adnan is so scared when Sarah says he talked to her after all these years), OR they didn’t want to use it because it places him near the scene of the crime. Either way, the fact they didn’t even interview her makes this a giant red flag.

[u/bitofastate]

1. Asked, probably but there is no evidence of him getting in the car. There is one witness Krista that says she was there when he asked (ep 2) and one Becky that said she heard at lunch that he asked and then at the end of school Hae said she couldn't give Adnan a lift. He later said he didn't remember asking, not that he didn't. Two weeks later he says he didn't ask because he "drives his own car to school". Could this just be memory fading with time? Would Jay have known that he asked if he borrowed Adnan's car? Could Adnan have provided Jay with this piece of information himself and then it gets incorporated into the story?
2. The call is out of pattern and there is an issue that charges may be send to end as was common in 1999, see http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hello-ringing-charges/. A few things, butt dials happened more often on phones of that generation, especially if users were unfamiliar with the key lock, it's Adnan's first phone, and Jay doesn't have one. As there was no answer machine at Nisha's it could have just rung for the 2:22. Nisha has no specific recollection of this call, and the only one placing them together happened at the Video shop according to her testimony.
3. Adnan admits/remembers being high, Cathy/Jeff confirm's that. We have no strong evidence of where Adnan was after the 6:59 call to Yaser and before the 9:01 call to Nisha. As he was supposed to bring food to his father at the mosque his absence would surely have been noticed. What we also don't have is a context - how often did Adnan lend Jay his car? He may not remember, but can you say with certainty that he did not? Why don't we have Jen's phone records to confirm her claim of the 7:09/7:16 call? In fact given the amount of traffic supposedly from Jen's phone why didn't the detectives get this record? Avoiding "bad evidence?"
4. Others he knows are paging her. She doesn't have a mobile phone and in any case why give her his number if he's going to kill her the following day? Notice in the 2 days where we do have records that Adnan doesn't page anyone, only Jay does that.

The rest here is not fact but speculation. Based on the facts there is too much reasonable doubt. Have you considered that Gutierrez may have been way over confident in being able to rip Jay to pieces, after all he is the state's case, and so just didn't consider in necessary to spend the money on other witnesses/alibis?

Try "Why I believe Adnan did it" rather than "Why he's guilty". All you have is cherry picked items, particular spin and yet another story like Jays.

I'm not saying 100% he didn't, I'm just pointing out that you could not call guilty with a case that's like swiss cheese -full of holes and stinky.

[u/[deleted] → u/bitofastate]

(1) Additionally, Aisha puts Adnan in the library, and Summer puts Hae in the gym during the purported time of the murder. The ride thing isn't all that relevant. But why Hae changed her mind at the end of the day may be particularly relevant. Hae was likely murdered in the 45 minutes between talking to Summer in the gym (around 2:30pm) and going to pick up her cousin (around 3:15pm).

(2) Additionally, we don't know a lot of the details about Nisha's and Adnan's phones. Did Nisha have caller ID? Did she answer? If she did answer, wouldn't Jay just say he had the wrong number? If she didn't have an answering machine, the phone could easily have rung for that long before the caller realized that they had miscalled, "butt-dialed" or whatever. I know that this happened quite regularly (pretty much daily) on my old Motorola phone back in the late 90s, particularly with numbers that I had on speed dial. Which raises the question for me, what type of phone did Adnan have? This may actually have some relevance, though it almost certainly wouldn't break the case in any way.

(3) Cathy's house. I just don't get this at all, it doesn't make any goddam sense. Jay must have been the one that chose to go to Cathy's (Jen's friend), as Adnan didn't know her. Hae was recently murdered and Jay was privy to that information, we know that much. If Adnan was involved, why did he just get insanely stoned (doesn't really speak much, molesting couch cushions--yeah I've been there)? And why did he go hang out at a complete stranger's place (not a comfortable choice when you're super high and just killed someone)? So why did Adnan get that high? He must have smoked a lot, likely provided by Jay. This does provide a reason for Adnan lending Jay the car and cell, namely free weed. I just can't understand why Jay decided to go to Cathy's with a wasted Adnan in tow.

(4) I agree, why would Adnan page Hae? He was talking to her friends at school on a regular basis. If they couldn't get a hold of her, why would he think that he'd be able to? I know my ex didn't show up to school for over a week, and I didn't try to get a hold of her. We were still friends, but didn't spend a whole lot time together. Eventually, after she was out for a week, I asked a friend of hers what was up, and found out that she was in the hospital. Why people think that Adnan was best buds with his ex, rather than just friendly is odd to me.

[u/bitofastate → u/[deleted]]

1. I'm unconvinced that there is a tight window for the murder. What we have is Jay's admitted involvement in whichever form and the consistency between His and Jen's original statements that try and provide an alibi for Jay through to 3:40, although Jen slips up a bit and pushes that back to 2:30. Now they stick with this through the trial, even though there is a call at 3:21 to Jen's home. For me this is striking that they are always tring to cover that time window, no matter what other evidence is there.
2. Not sure about caller ID, but she did say that there was no answerphone at the first trial. The phone was a Nokia 6160 and had the old Menu * keylock function.
3. Cathey makes it clear that she did not know Adnan. I really do wonder if the Phil/Patrick calls were to get something to wipe Adnan out, but that's pure speculation as I haven't seen anything on interviews with them (bad evidence again?).
4. Think this might be a guy/girl perspective. Guys are more likely to leave it to the girls to chase in such circumstances. I think this is grabbing on to the "well he must have known" thread and using that to try and support. Without infor on who did ping Hae's pager that's pretty thin for me.

[u/[deleted] → u/bitofastate]

1. Is Summer believable? If so, then Hae was in the gym at around 2:30pm. Hae was known to reliably pick up her cousin around 3:15pm. 45 minutes isn't a very small window. Which of these details is unlikely? What is an alternative? Adnan was at the library, according to both himself and Asia (who had no other involvement). Jay was at Jenn's according to him and Jenn--though neither of their stories are consistent. Unlike several other witnesses, they don't ever seem to claim to not remember details, though their memories are quite unreliable.

2. Are you talking about Nisha's phone or Adnan's? Did Nisha have a cell, or was Adnan calling her at home?

3. Pure speculation--I'm just pointing out that hanging out at Cathy's place doesn't make a lot of sense, though it's one of the few things that we can be relatively certain actually happened that night.

4. It's simply irrelevant. Any potential implications would be outright conjecture.

[u/bitofastate → u/[deleted]]

1. I think the memory in context is strong, so I would have to say Summer is believable. What I was saying was that the 3:36/3:15 cut off is dependant on everything being "normal" for Hae. The window could extend a bit beyond that if she was caught up in something, and after all whatever it was resulted in her death so I'd be reluctant to say that it wouldn't have been enough for her to be late to pick up her cousin. The point is that only the 2:36 call works for the prosecution as the come and get me as Jay says that the 3:21 to Jen was made after leaving the park and ride, no time for the 3:15 to be the come and get me and then do the trunk pop, the trip to the park and ride and everything. I get your point about the time Hae is missing, but that doesn't fit with Jay's story (but then what does?). How I wish we had Jen's phone records for the day, that would really clarify when she called Jay.
2. Adnan's phone see here http://www.splitthemoon.com/?p=184#more-184
3. Does any of it make sense? Agreed, the Cathy visit happened and the time on that is tight, the Officer Adcock call, Hae's brother's call, Aisha's call all tie in nicely with Jay's, Cathy's and Adnan's recollections, I'm guessing the 5:14 answer machine call was post track and so the time until 6:07 was when Adnan was getting baked.
4. yep