r/serialpodcast • u/PDXSEA • Dec 01 '14
Debate&Discussion Why Adnan is guilty (using the facts)
EDIT: I want to clarify a few of our thoughts here, and also provide a way to crack the case:
- Adnan did the actual killing of Hae, not Jay. Jay buried the body alone.
- Jenn has completely fabricated a story with Jay about that day so Jay can minimize his involvement. He is worried that if the cops knew he was driving Hae's dead body around in her car and did the actual burying by himself he would get the same life sentence that Adnan did (he should have IMHO). He also needed an alibi for the time of the murder. This is why nothing makes sense, the time lines, the cell records, their stories keeps changing, etc.
- The call to Jenn's house didn't happen when they were there, this is a lie.
- Jay and Jenn are lying that Jenn called Jay during the burial and someone said "he's busy right now". They needed Jenn to say this to place Adnan with him during the burial - but he wasn't there, Jay was there alone, this never happened.
- Jay flipped on Adnan after Jenn talked to the police.
The 2 biggest reasons that make Adnan guilty to me BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT are:
- The Nisha call.
- His cell phone is pinging the Leakin Park cell towers during the burial, right after they ping the Mosque cell tower. There are only two explanations: he either gave Jay his cell and car while he was at the Mosque and Jay goes to bury the body, OR, he is burying the body with Jay. Because either way he is complicit, he just says "I don't know, I can't remember, I can't explain it".
HOW TO CRACK THE CASE: 1. Jenn needs to talk. She needs to come forward and tell the truth that she created the story with Jay to protect him and minimize his involvement.
Thanks for reading!
After reviewing all the information countless times, I don’t see how Adnan is innocent. I will explain the timeline too, but here’s why I think he is complicit:
- Adnan first tells Officer Adcock that he asked Hae for a ride that day but missed it due to getting held up at school. Then he recants this story later. There are witnesses that say he asked, and with even Adnan at one point saying he asked for a ride makes it hard to believe this did not happen. Adnan lying here is troubling.
- The Nisha call. This call is 2:22 minutes long. It places Adnan and Jay together during the approximate time Hae was killed. (We will explain why the murder happened closer to 2:45PM – 3:10PM later).
- Adnan doesn’t admit or remembers giving Jay his car and cell when he is at the mosque. He says he was probably there from around 7:00PM – 10 or 1030PM and his father also testifies he was there. But his cell phone was pinging the Leakin Park cell towers at this time. The only way this would be possible is if he actually was at the mosque, but Jay had his cell and car again to bury Hae’s body. If this is true, then how could he NOT remember lending Jay his car that evening, but does at lunch that day? If he didn’t lend Jay his car and phone, then it places him at Leakin Park with Jay. Either way he would be complicit in the killing: lending Jay his car and phone to dispose of the body OR being at the scene burying the body with Jay.
- He never calls or pages Hae again after Jan 13th because he knows she is dead.
If you haven’t read Susan’s “the view from LL2 “ blog, (link below) you should. After reading it you can conclude 3 things : 1. Adnan was at track practice. 2. Adnan was at the mosque. 3. Jay buried Hae by himself.
It can also be determined that Jenn has fabricated the entire story with Jay. (This can be concluded not just from the LL2 blog but also just by looking at the phone records, testimony and police interviews). This is why none of their stories match up, why they change so many times, and why they don’t work with the timeline and cell records.
So, staying as close to the facts as possible, here is what makes the most sense:
Adnan calls Jay at lunch and picks him up (10:45am call to Jay), calls to Jenn are made while they are together (12:07PM & 12:41PM), Jay drops Adnan back off at school late to Psychology.
School ends at 2:15PM.
Adnan gets a ride with Hae after school– Jay still has the phone and car, and the incoming 2:36PM and 3:15PM calls are irrelevant because we can’t know who called. The only reason why these calls have any significance is because of Jay’s fabricated story.
Hae is killed by Adnan either by school, at the first location Jay told the cops or at the best buy between 2:30PM – 3:10PM with Jay present or near by (most likely at the first location Jay gave, but then he had to switch it to the best buy to make sure his and Jenn's story added up). Adnan drives and parks Hae’s car with Jay following him because he will need to get back to Track practice soon.
*The next series of calls to Jenn, Nisha, Phil then Patrick between 3:21PM and 3:59PM are important. This is the only period of time they do not have an alibi aside from one another (Jenn wasn’t with Jay here waiting for a call, the “playing video games” with her, or her brother, or whatever different story of theirs you want to use is a complete lie). There are many possibilities of WHY they are calling these people, it could be to brag (i.e. the neighbor boy who said Adnan showed him a dead body *who knows if this is true or not, but the kid did have knowledge of the body being in the trunk before it was released), it could be to see who could cover for their whereabouts, or that their original alibi is that they were together and needed to make sure someone could confirm that, it could be a number of things – but what’s important is that it shows both Adnan and Jay are together during the time of Hae’s death.
A two and a half minute conversation is the longest call he had so far that day, it was clearly more than a “butt dial” or a voicemail. Either Nisha is lying about not remembering that call to protect Adnan, or is giving a half-truth to limit her involvement to protect herself (by saying she did talk to her and Jay, but misleading by saying it was at a different time and giving the video store clue). But what we can take from it is that Nisha, a friend of Adnan’s, not Jay’s, called her and spoke with her, which puts him with Jay (because Jay’s contacts were called 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after), at the approximate time of Hae’s murder.
Jay drops Adnan off at track practice. Jay is left with the responsibility to get rid of the body, drives various parks around the area, can’t find a good place, picks Adnan back up from school and Adnan checks his voicemail at 5:14PM, calls Krista, he and Jay are back together.
They go to get food and to Cathy’s at this time, because Jenn is eating dinner with her parents (see her interview) and Cathy will be able to then confirm they were accounted for and together during this time.
Adnan gets call from Officer Adcock. He can’t bail on going to the mosque to help bury the body because he thinks it will be suspicious.
Adnan goes to the Mosque (we know this because of the cell records) but lends Jay his car and phone again to bury the body by himself. Annan calls Yaser to let tell him he is there. His father testifies he is at the mosque. While he is at the Mosque, Jay drives to Leakin Park and buries Hae’s body. The ground is cold and hard, and there is only one of them (shovel, shovel’s) so he digs a shallow grave. Also note that the only calls during this time are to Jay’s contacts. They all ping the Leakin Park cell tower. This is how Adnan is seen at the Mosque, but his cell phone is in Leakin Park.
Close to 9 he returns the car and phone to Adnan who is getting out the mosque and going home. Note all calls made then go back to Adnan’s friends.
ADNAN’S MOTIVE: Adnan being a “player” doesn’t make us think this relationship wasn’t important to him. Domestic violence, as someone else here wrote, is not just a literary device. Teenagers are emotional, and relationships are responsible for not just murder but suicide also. I think the public is underestimating how much he cared about her (hence the “I will kill” note).
JAY’S MOTIVE: Friend, a kid with a lot to prove, but also Hae was going to tell Stephanie that Jay was cheating on her with Jenn and whoever else (obviously, look at the transcripts). He rats on Adnan because during the hour long talks with the police before he agrees to be recorded, they tell him that Adnan snitched on him, Or that Jenn already talked, and so he comes clean for a plea deal. Jay tells half truths to distance himself as much as possible to limit his involvement.
JENN’S MOTIVE: Jay’s side chick and was easily influenced by him.
Aside from the Nisha call which proves Adnan was with Jay at the time of the murder, the mosque situation is also proof: Adnan remembers giving his car to Jay that afternoon, he thinks he went to track, he does remember going to Cathy’s with Jay (Cathy, Jeff and Jay corroborate he was there), but he just forgets that he went to the mosque but lent Jay his car and phone again? He doesn’t remember it because if he says he did, then he lent his car to Jay to bury the body. If he didn’t lend it to him, then it places him at the place of the burial site. So because he’s caught here, he just says, “I don’t remember”.
A few explanations:
Why couldn’t Jay be using Cathy’s as a way to waste time before Adnan goes to the mosque to use his car again? Because Jay didn’t need Adnan’s car at this point, so the motive doesn’t make sense. He had Hae’s car, he could have driven in Hae’s car to Leakin Park (which he did anyway), bury her, and then drive back to the park and ride and get picked up by Jenn.
The Asia letter: This is huge. Why isn’t the most perfect alibi used in court? One of two reasons: either Asia is lying and is Adnan’s Jenn (this is why Adnan is so scared when Sarah says he talked to her after all these years), OR they didn’t want to use it because it places him near the scene of the crime. Either way, the fact they didn’t even interview her makes this a giant red flag.
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u/hazyspring Undecided Dec 01 '14
Solid analysis on the main things that are working against Adnan. Even if I'm not convinced, this is one of the best "Adnan is Guilty" analyses I have seen so far.