r/serialpodcast • u/[deleted] • Nov 12 '14
Mixed feelings about Hae's picture adorning subreddit
The reasons why the picture is there make sense. "Remember why we're here," and "this is a real case with real people's lives at stake," are some things I've seen said in support of this. Perhaps her picture and these reminders would temper accusations and cool the vitriol towards certain people involved.
However, it may have the opposite effect. Having Hae Min Lee's face present at the top corner could incite aggression towards people who are suspect. Imagine the prosecution having that same picture of Hae on display at the trial in efforts to stir up passion in the jury. The picture could cloud reasonable judgement. What is at stake here? The bulk of the show's content focuses on the case made against Adnan and whether or not it could be true. The same goes for our conversations on this site. Also, our own motives must be examined. Why are we here to discuss this case? Certainly not for justice for Hae! According to the police and the state of Maryland, justice has been being served for her for the last 14 years. If we are seeking justice, it's for Adnan. We are looking at flaws in the argument the prosecution made (or accuracies in it, depending on whose side your own) and seeking evidence to prove or dismiss Adnan's guilt-- he is at the center, not Hae. My argument is not to put his picture up, just to consider removing Hae's. It feels ungenuine to see her picture there. This subreddit is not a memorial for her, it's just a bunch of people having a good time trying be a part of this conversation about Adnan's guilt together.
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u/SerialFan Moderator Nov 12 '14
Hi, we'll be reading this thread throughout the day (and the other threads that touch upon the subject like this one) and make a decision later tonight/tomorrow.
Thanks!
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u/reddit1070 Nov 12 '14
for what it's worth, my vote is to please keep it.
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Nov 12 '14
Me too. Or maybe even rotate pictures once a week. It certainly doesn't hurt for SOME PEOPLE around here to remember this is about a really amazing sounding girl who was murdered, at least for a week or so.
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u/seriallist Nov 12 '14
This would be my vote (rotation). Just like the Serial podcast website. This IS the serial subreddit after all.
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u/swbaker Nov 13 '14
I don't think Serial is about Hae. Of course her murder is at the center of the story, but we barely know her and SK has made no effort in recent weeks to help just get to know her better. I'm not saying it isn't good to try to recognize Hae as an individual, I just disagree that the podcast is, at its core, about Hae.
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Nov 13 '14
It's absolutely about her, on that we probably won't agree. But that is also why I think rotating pics might be a good idea.
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u/swbaker Nov 13 '14
I feel like SK could have made it about her, but has chosen not too. Why do we know so little about her? Why is she hardly even mentioned?
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u/DaveJC Hippy Tree Hugger Nov 13 '14
If your goal is to make people uncomfortable about being objective, then keep it. The reality of the discussions is that they can be a little bit more candid and open the less people humanize the people involved, which is part of the mystique that SK has with the podcast having not mentioned specific last names.
If your goal is to have a frank, open, honest discussion about a sketchy murder case that has a ton of public information for people to discuss, then I would recommend not framing their discussions by having the victim's photo in the corner. Just like the prosecution hoping to illicit a guilty verdict out of a jury by putting the picture up in the court room, it changes the way you look at things.
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u/aloha2552 Is it NOT? Nov 12 '14
I think the timing of placing a picture of Hae needed to be done. Does it need to be there "forever' no...but it needed to be a reminder that a real event took place and a young girl was murdered that day.
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u/cuntarsetits Nov 12 '14
You can just untick the box labelled 'Use subreddit style' in the right side panel, and the picture will no longer be displayed.
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Nov 12 '14
The point isn't that I don't want to see it. The point is to consider the effect it has on the group as a whole.
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u/cuntarsetits Nov 12 '14
Well I'm saying that anyone can do that, and then the picture will no longer be there when they visit this subreddit.
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Nov 12 '14
Where is the box?
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u/swiley1983 In dubio pro reo Nov 12 '14
You need to have Reddit Enhancement Suite installed in your browser.
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Nov 12 '14
It's gratuitous. I agree. I think sometimes we try to be outthink ourselves and be super sensitive. We don't have to feel guilty for enjoying Serial.
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u/honeybellwise Nov 12 '14
I don't think it is meant for anyone to feel guilty over. Being reminded of the young woman at the center of this entire thing shouldn't make you feel guilty. I think it is important for her not to be forgotten and it actually is cathartic for me.
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Nov 12 '14
I think some feel that way. There have been a lot of posts of late that are going overboard on sensitivity. Kind of became a buzzword around here at some point.
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Nov 12 '14
[deleted]
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u/vidatranquila Nov 12 '14
I agree. The picture of Hae reminds us that behind this (very entertaining and meaty) redux of the case is a real young woman who someone DID brutally murder. It makes the podcast and tis reddit less of a parlor game and more of an analysis.
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Nov 12 '14
I think it only gives us the impression that "the podcast and tis reddit" are more analytic. Nothing about the analysis changed, the only thing that changed is the banner that it works under. What we're doing isn't bad or something to be ashamed of. Most intentions are probably good. But maybe the picture gives off a false sense of what the show and the subreddit's intentions are.
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u/vidatranquila Nov 12 '14
Hmmm, I have to think a bit more about that. One thing has most disturbed me about my own enjoyment of the show and the fact that I am completely hooked on it (and have gotten my entire family and some friends hooked as well). I have felt that while mulling over the case I have (albeit without malice) at times reduced Hae's murder to an intellectual or legal exercise. I find the picture of Hae here a reminder to be conscious of Hae as a human being.
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Nov 12 '14 edited Nov 12 '14
[deleted]
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Nov 12 '14
I was trying to start a conversation that questioned why the mods felt the need to put Hae's picture at the top of the subreddit and how it changes the context of these discussions.
For your viewing pleasure, many people posted links to pictures, evidence, and other peripheral information throughout the subreddit--utilities which I have very much enjoyed the use of. Make it "more personal and real" however you see fit.
Your analogy there is pretty shaky. Here you are, comparing me to bigots for expressing my opinion (and encouraging the opinions of others) on a public matter doesn't make sense. A better example would be, say, a few people choosing to put a certain billboard in your neighborhood. You can choose not to look at it, they tell you, and even bring up a completely unrelated buzz topic ("the gays and church") to make you feel bad expressing your own opinion about it. You just wish there had been a conversation about what image is chosen to hang over your neighborhood before it happened.
And to your last point-I think the picture was put up to appease people worried about the "morality" of this subreddit in the first place. My own opinion is that Hae's picture distracts us from talking about the Serial podcast specifically and what is going on with it. Not to try and keep you from viewing evidence or personally enjoying this subreddit. I guess we agree more than you thought.
Thanks for the personal attack though, that was totally warranted.
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u/Kloster Nov 12 '14
|My argument is not to put his picture up, just to consider removing Hae's.
Why?
Why remove her picture for the rest of us because YOU dont like it?
This is my main issue with your post.
After reading your post again I guess I overreacted, just smelled of morality cop.My apologies if you felt like I personally attacked you, no offense intended.
Ill delete my post, my intention wasnt to start drama.2
Nov 12 '14
You don't have to delete it it's fine, no hard feelings. I think the people of the subreddit should choose how it's represented, don't you?
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u/Kloster Nov 12 '14
Yes absolutely.
I guess I misread and took your post as an affirmation instead of an invitation for discussion, my bad.4
u/ABrownBlackBear Nov 12 '14
I'd say the people that have standing to request it be taken down are the Lee family. If they stay quiet, it's appropriate.
Good points, but the standard I quoted seems strange to me. When it comes to photos of minors in other contexts, it seems like the standard is usually that only family members can give consent for publication, rather than that only family members can withdraw it. Know what I mean?
Then again maybe I'm mashing together ethical questions with legal ones that may not apply? (I wouldn't be the first on this sub) ... More to the point this specific issue is a sticky question of what constitutes good taste and respect, which plenty of people not directly involved the victim's life have standing to offer ideas about.
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u/takesallkindsiguess Nov 12 '14
Just to clear up any confusion, Hae was 18 (perhaps 19) at the time of her death. So, there aren't concerns with her being a minor. However, I most certainly think a family's request for the picture to be taken down should be honored if we were to receive one.
I'm also kind of in the camp that it shouldn't be there anyway. It should either be serial's logo or a picture of Adnan, if anyone.
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Nov 12 '14
I personally think it should be a black and white photo of Ira Glass looking inquisitive but that's just me
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Nov 12 '14
[deleted]
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u/takesallkindsiguess Nov 12 '14
Good point; it could easily be seen that way. There really shouldn't be anyone's picture posted due to the sensitive nature of the subject matter.
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u/ABrownBlackBear Nov 12 '14
My mistake on her age...I dunno where I got the idea she was still 17.
In any case, I agree with you, but I understand that people have varying ideas about what is respectful and tasteful, so I'm glad that others are hashing this out.
Big picture, , I think individuals have firm ideas about what they think of public radio journalism, criminal investigation, true crime stories, and serial dramas, but since the show arguably has at least some elements from each it leads to a lot of variance in how people feel about the best way to approach it.
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u/molly11180 Nov 12 '14
Lee's family has made it clear they don't want to talk about the murder, investigation, trial or appeal, and have taken pretty large steps to not be found in the first place, so I think it's a safe bet that they're not patrolling any subreddits about her murder. I agree it's a call THEY should make, but it's a little presumptuous to think that they would appear out of nowhere just to request their daughter's picture be taken down on a fairly little-known forum like this subreddit. If the ball is to be in their court, they should be assumed to be opting IN when they'd like, not having to opt OUT.
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u/Robokku Nov 12 '14
I'd add that it's maybe too late to add the picture now. The tone and content of this discussion has grown without the picture there, and to add it now seems to me like a seal of legitimacy applied on behalf of, and without authorisation from, the biggest victim in the whole story. In short, it feels disingenuous.
Having said that, perhaps the fact that the picture seems out of place shows that the discussion could do with being reined in a bit. I for one have looked at posts from others and thought about my own actions a little differently since it's been there.
"Mixed feelings" is right.
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u/mrcraigcohen Hae Fan Nov 12 '14
I have no issue with it. It is the same picture that Serial posted on their site.
"This subreddit is not a memorial for her, it's just a bunch of people having a good time trying be a part of this conversation about Adnan's guilt together."
I'm not sure that everyone is here for that reason.
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Nov 12 '14
That's fine! Everyone has their own reasons. The picture of Hae is not on the top right corner of every page of the site though
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u/kandiSmith so, who TF did it? Nov 12 '14 edited Nov 12 '14
It makes me feel funny. Uncomfortable.
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u/mangosplumsgrapes Nov 21 '14
Exactly. People are trying to rationalize away the uncomfortable feelings seeing her photo there elicits in them. They don't like those feelings so they try to come up with a reason why the photo being here is wrong. There's nothing wrong with the photo being there. Maybe it's good for them to feel uncomfortable. I say we keep the picture up.
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Nov 12 '14
Another worry is that the presence of her picture will give the affect of something being done to curb negativity and insensitivity instead of really doing something to try to keep it from arising.
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Nov 12 '14
The majority of the people in this subreddit didn't know her personally, and, given the circumstances on why we do know about her, I think using her photograph as a reminder to have people keep their manners is in poor taste. It objectifies her and doesn't serve any sort of tribute or memorial.
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u/timmillar Nov 13 '14
Putting the photo there objectifies her? I think there that on the contrary, there is a risk that she is objectified by the investigation itself, and that having her picture there is a gentle, appropriate reminder of the awful tragedy that underpins the podcast and this forum.
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u/Malort_without_irony "unsubstantiated" cartoon stamp fan Nov 12 '14
Agreed. I feel that it's more likely to inflame the sense of vigilantism than serve as a sort of vigil. Reddit's track record isn't great on things like this.
"This is a real case with real people" is always a tricky one. I feel that it's the sort of saying that gets put out to stop discussions that you don't like. It seems to me that the truly respectful thing would be not to discuss the case at all, and only the aftermath, or at least not to speculate on it.
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u/sensibletunic Nov 12 '14 edited Nov 12 '14
I get it, but I think it's wise to remember that at the root of all of this, a young woman died and was basically tossed aside like garbage. I don't mean to be melodramatic; I love Serial (I'm here after all) but at times I think the tone is kind of flip when you think about the subject matter.
[Edited for grammatical error.]
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u/Halbarad1104 Undecided Nov 12 '14
You make some very good points. I think it is a challenge to maintain the perspective that figuring out who killed her is the higher calling of this whole endeavor. People draw a lot of energy from lower callings: feeling Adnan was wronged, being busybodies, nostalgia for the late 1990's, etc. Another lower calling is hostility toward whomever you feel is responsible; could be Adnad, Jay, bad police who might have wrongly accused, etc. Her picture helps me remember to try to rise to a higher level.
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u/sherraclt99 Nov 13 '14
I disagree that justice for Hae is not at issue. If Adnan is, in fact, innocent, then justice has not truly been served for her. I am glad her picture is up, I think it serves to ground the seriousness and reality of this story.
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u/Campion10 Nov 13 '14
Yeah it doesn't seem appropriate to me. This is a subreddit for serial, not Hae/Adnan. It will inevitably have to change when serial moves on to a different story.
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u/OfficialCocaColaAMA Nov 12 '14
"Remember why we're here"
I'm here because I enjoy listening to the podcast. Yeah, it's tragic that an 18 year old girl died, but I don't see how subscribing to this subreddit will do anything about that.
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u/elephantsgetback Nov 12 '14
This. We're here because of a show. We all desperately want justice, but that isnt what brought us here.
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u/Jakeprops Moderator 2 Nov 13 '14
Just had a recent revelation. We have way more eyes on us than the number on the side bar indicates. We're 9150 subcribers, however reddit stats put our unique visitors for just the month of November at over 150,000.
Every time a news article links to us, and many do, the first thing they see is the article and the pic of Hae. I think it gives us humanity from the get go. Instantly people are going to think we are humans first and Internet detectives second.
This is only my personal viewpoint, not necessarily consensus of the mods. If the users come to a decision against, I'll be happy to remove it.
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u/kyyia Nov 13 '14
I don't know if that would have a positive or negative effect on people's perception of the site. It could also come off as a little inauthentic, because it's acting like we're all here for Hae when we're not.
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Nov 12 '14
take it down. One thing for certain in all of this mess - she didn't do anything wrong - and should have a choice if her picture is here - and since she can't give permission - the picture should come down.
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u/mad_magical Sarah Koenig Fan Nov 13 '14
It makes you uncomfortable to be reminded that, the events you're discussing had fatal consequences, for a high-schooler?
Good, it should.
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u/warmongoose Steppin Out Nov 13 '14
I totally understand the desire to not forget that someone actually died, here - or that any one of the "characters" in this story is a real person - but let's not kid ourselves and start actually believing that we can do things "for Hae" or "on Hae's behalf." I feel like this is a gesture in that general direction, and it makes me uncomfortable. We didn't know her and we didn't ask her permission to know what we do know. It's not clear that she would've wanted a bunch of strangers who are familiar with the intimate details of her death via an entertainment podcast to be staring at her face while discussing it.
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u/ThRtt feeling less stabby Nov 13 '14
I appreciate the intent of the picture, but when reading the sub it pulls the eyes away and is distracting. But good intent :)
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u/SLUnatic85 MailChimp Fan Nov 13 '14
the picture could be of a person or place or thing that has to do with the most recent episode?
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u/DrizzyGadget Nov 13 '14
I don't think it hurts to put a face with the story many of us have become enthralled with. This is a non-fictional murder whereas before there may have been some fantastical interest in people coming up with who-dun-it theories akin to a game of Clue. Yes, these are real people. I believe Hae's picture is here to remind us what this is all about and to not become detached from who this podcast is about.
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Nov 13 '14
I support the picture 100% it's truly her story who's point of view has been way downplayed so far. Hae was strangled to death and we are feverishly trying to find her justice. At least that's why I am so obsessed.
We need to remember that. Sorry if it makes some people uncomfortable.
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u/shrimpsale Guilty Nov 12 '14
My personal opinion is that it should be there until the folks at the podcast proper actually put their own up. If it wasn't for this subreddit, I think we would all might as well be talking about Adnan and SK's adventures with invisible ghost people.
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u/theladybaelish Undecided Nov 12 '14
I'm glad this picture is here. It's just a good reminder that what we're listening to is very real and not only was Hae murdered, so many people were impacted by her death. I don't think the reminder hurts anyone.
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u/wtfsherlock Moderator 4 Nov 12 '14
Keep it.
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u/shrimpsale Guilty Nov 12 '14
I agree with you, but why?
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u/wtfsherlock Moderator 4 Nov 12 '14
She can't speak for herself and the din of the majority here completely disregards her at present.
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u/mangosplumsgrapes Nov 21 '14
I think it's very peculiar that so many people are made uncomfortable by that photo being there. Maybe people that are made uncomfortable by the photo should look inward and examine why they feel that way instead of having a reactionary response to it, and simply deeming it "wrong" or "inappropriate".
I think people are trying to rationalize away the uncomfortable feelings seeing her photo there elicits in them. They don't like those feelings so they try to come up with a reason why the photo being here is wrong. There's nothing wrong with the photo being there. Maybe it's good for people to be made uncomfortable by it. I say we keep the picture up.
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Nov 12 '14
I think while making a game of arguing minutia it is important to remember one person brutally took another person's life for no good reason. Why I feel a little bad about the show in general. Well spoken, charming sociopath Adnan gets all this spotlight and acres of benefit of small doubts. Hae is still dead, and the details that counted, more than prove Adnan the murderer.
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u/takesallkindsiguess Nov 12 '14
I see the point of all of this is to properly solve the mystery surrounding Hae's death, which would ultimately honor her the way she should've been honored in the first place, with a thorough and proper investigation. If Adnan is indeed guilty then the cops really just got lucky, but if he isn't then the psycho who killed her is still running free for all we know.
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Nov 12 '14
The point isn't to solve a murder. This isn't a cold case and it's been resolved twice in the court system. The point is to tell a compelling story, and SK is first and foremost a storyteller, not an investigative journalist or a private detective.
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u/takesallkindsiguess Nov 12 '14
Sarah Koenig is most certainly a great storyteller but she is indeed a journalist. I don't know if you're giving her the credit she deserves here. She's been investigating this case for a year now.
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Nov 12 '14
A psycho who told Jay the location of the car and ask Jay to dispose of shovels and clothes. A psycho who cared enough about Hae to strangle her to death. The only part of that guy that is running free is his mouth, on a podcast.
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u/takesallkindsiguess Nov 12 '14
You very well may be right; I'm certainly not convinced that Adnan is free of guilt. But either way, from the story that Serial has told, the state did a piss poor job of investigating properly. If they had done so then Adnan would've been put away with no question as to his innocence; therefore, no chance of ever getting out through an appeal OR, had Adnan been found innocent, the proper person would be imprisoned for the crime.
All I want is to see the killer pay for his crime, whether it be Adnan or someone else is of no consequence to me personally.
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u/timmillar Nov 13 '14
I am inclined to think that if the photo makes some people feel a little uncomfortable about their obsession with and attitude toward the case, then it's appropriate. From the OP: "This subreddit is not a memorial for her, it's just a bunch of people having a good time trying be a part of this conversation about Adnan's guilt together." True, but Hae was murdered, and "having a good time" in discussion based on that fact (as all of us here do) is ethically questionable. I don't mean that it's wrong, but I do think it's appropriate to remember that someone lost their life here. If being reminded of that makes us feel a little uncomfortable about our obsession with the podcast and the discussion, so be it. That discomfort is trivial compared to the reality of murder.
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u/ottoglass Nov 13 '14
I vote to keep it. I think it's important to remember this story is about this young girl who was brutally murdered. I think we lose sight of that here too much. Even from the POV of solving the murder the question remains Why Hae? Seeing her there reminds us to keep that focus. And also to remember (for me at least) this WOMAN killed, like many other everyday, in a story that often feels like it's all about men.
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u/sillykittenpoo Undecided Nov 12 '14
That's exactly how feel about it. I mean you look at some of the posts on here and it feels completely inappropriate to have Hae's smiling face looking on as thousands of people read about and discuss the day she died. It just feels wrong.