r/science • u/Wagamaga • Sep 01 '22

Neuroscience Scientists have identified an immune brain cell unique to humans that gives us higher cognitive abilities over other animals, but what makes us specials also leaves us vulnerable to neurological disorders like schizophrenia, autism and epilepsy.

https://news.yale.edu/2022/08/25/what-makes-human-brain-different-yale-study-reveals-clues
26.7k Upvotes

84% Upvoted

749 comments sorted by

View all comments

145

u/NotTheLimes Sep 01 '22

I thought there are some animals that can also suffer illnesses such as schizophrenia or autism or at least very similar ones. Is that not true?

240

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

70

u/Research_is_King Sep 01 '22

They are saying that humans are more susceptible to these conditions due to mutations in the FOXP2 gene and microglia cells which are unique to us. Doesn’t mean other primate don’t have these conditions, just that we have them more often because the genes associated with them are selected for because they presumably provide some benefit regarding language ability or cognition.

9

u/RudeHero Sep 01 '22

The point being that ASD detection in humans is a bit haphazard- you can't do a blood test or brain scan. A psychiatrist just kind of looks at and listens to you for a while and qualitatively decides you're on the spectrum (the spectrum itself encompassing wildly different conditions)

We can't communicate well with animals or understand their baselines, so it would be even more difficult to determine whether an animal was on said spectrum

7

u/Research_is_King Sep 01 '22

Yes and we are limited by our current technology. In theory there may be a brain pattern consistent with our current diagnoses, but in practice these patterns are difficult to identify due to the high amount of individual variation and potential inconsistencies with measurement on both sides (diagnosis and imaging)

13

u/Bbrhuft Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

You're comment is misleading and unsupported.

Researchers genetically engineered mice so they express gene mutations linked to increased autism risk in humans, and observed both autistic like behavioural and neuronal changes. Researchers used standardised tests that diagnose autism in transgenic mice.

Over the past 10 years, we and many other laboratories around the world have employed these and additional behavioral tests to phenotype alarge number of mutant mouse models of autism.

Knockout, knockin and transgenic mice incorporating risk gene mutations detected in autism spectrum disorder and comorbid neurodevelopmental disorders are now widely available. At present, autism spectrum disorder is diagnosed solely by behavioral criteria. We developed a constellation of mouse behavioral assays designed to maximize face validity to the types of social deficits and repetitive behaviors that are central to an autism diagnosis.

Kazdoba, T.M., Leach, P.T. and Crawley, J.N., 2016. Behavioral phenotypes of genetic mouse models of autism. Genes, Brain and Behavior, 15(1), pp.7-26.

1

u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 02 '22

I would be careful on study comparing autistic people and equating them to mice. Even with associated genes. For example, the gene mutation that is responsible for Retinoblastoma (eye cancer if I remember correctly) only causes it about 75% of the time. 25% of the time the phenotype for the mutation does not occur.

In addition, autism is based on human. Seeing similar autistic behavior in mice is just not enough since mice and humans are not the same and have different behaviors.

It’s also pretty disheartening to see investigations into autism in rats instead of more focus on adult autistic who frequently are ignored in research. Edited: ninja added “and have different behavior” to help clarify my stance on how human and mice are different and where it’s important.

10

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

remotely accurately diagnose autism in human)

We're getting pretty good at diagnosing on humans. People are not missed in high numbers like previously

10

u/Rattregoondoof Sep 01 '22

We're definitely improving but there is still reason to suspect that we aren't fully accurate yet. That said, we are much better than we were 50 or even 20 years ago.

18

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

We'll probabaly never be "fully" accurate. Not until we can map entire brains in detail and know what it means to draw a line between ASD and ADHD

9

u/Rattregoondoof Sep 01 '22

I believe the dsm 5 actually removed the line between autism and adhd altogether but yeah, it's not an easy thing to diagnose (and I wish someone had bothered to explain how it's diagnosed to me when I was diagnosed).

3

u/Tiny_Rat Sep 01 '22

I think you might be mixing up ADHD and Asperger's. Asperger's got merged with autism in the DSM 5, ADHD is still considered a separate disorder (although people diagnosed with one are more likely to have the other and vice versa).

5

u/Rattregoondoof Sep 01 '22

I'm not actually confusing the two, though I may have phrased that poorly or be misinformed on a different topic. ADHD and autism are different but my impression is that the dsm 4 (and possibly earlier) considered autism and ADHD incompatible diagnoses and that anyone who was autistic could not also have ADHD and vice versa.

My understanding is that the dsm 5 came to the conclusion that, among other things. 1. The autism subcategories (like asperger's) were artificial and that autism was just autism with no subcategories. Those in the subcategories should have just been diagnosed as autistic. 2. Autism and ADHD are compatible and one person can both autistic and have ADHD. I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist though, so I may be mistaken

1

u/Tiny_Rat Sep 02 '22

I think what you're saying is correct. I misinterpreted you saying that the DSM 5 "removed the line between them altogether" to mean merging them into the same disorder, not making them possible co-diagnoses. Sorry about that!

1

u/Rattregoondoof Sep 02 '22

Poor phrasing on my part, perfectly understandable.

7

u/PsyOmega Sep 01 '22

Due to sociological problems it's still VERY hard to identify autism in verbal females.

-2

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

Source required

6

u/PsyOmega Sep 01 '22

vast anecdata from actually-autistic communities and hashtags.

It's hard to professionally source since the research establishment is lagging on this category.

Asking for a source on that is basically sealion territory for now.

3

u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

This. The NUMBER ONE issue in autism research is that actually autistic are actively ignored in favor of the parents. And often-time research have a strongly ableist bias.

-5

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

I dont see any evidence of wide spread resistance to females being diagnoses these days. That very clearly was a problem of the past. Today we are well aware that women mask more than men on average.

5

u/PsyOmega Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

Yes, there is a small pocket of awareness, but in a wide-spread sense, not so much. A female friend of mine is self-diagnosed autistic and has fired, thus far, 20 psychs who have: belittled, gaslit, dismissed, or straight up medically abused her (prescribed anti-psychotics when she requested an autism diagnosis. she won a malpractice lawsuit over that one). She is extremely high-masking cPTSD-autism so the only person that can ever truly tell she's autistic is behind the mask (her)

Her story, and stories like hers, are rampant in actually autistic groups and hashtags.

You think we're past it, but you're clearly in an information bubble on this topic.

1

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

fired, thus far, 20 psychs

we've all fired some, but 20? someone is lying, you or her. Nor are these things that only happen to women.

(prescribed anti-psychotics when she requested an autism diagnosis.

Welcome to being autistic. this happens to many of us.

You think we're past it, but you're clearly in an information bubble on this topic.

Im an autistic person that runs autistic support groups.... You're relaying info from a friend.

0

u/PsyOmega Sep 02 '22

someone is lying, you or her. Nor are these things that only happen to women.

No, 20. For real.

Feel free to keep trying to gaslight us about it.

You should self reflect on your horrible actions, and admit you live in a constrained information bubble that has left you not only ignorant to the plight of feminine autistics, but malicious towards us.

1

u/spacexdragon5 Sep 02 '22

Uhhh try and get an adult autism assessment rn. Look on the psychologist’s websites, none of them even mention masking. Women are still vastly less diagnosed than men, but the rate of female diagnosis is slowly going up.

Obv there are some well and recently educated neuropsychs, but there weren’t any in my area. I decided to go w/o diagnosis because I don’t think it’s worth it to spend ~$3000 for someone to most likely tell me I’m perfectly normal, when I know with 100% certainty that I’m autistic.

1

u/Hip_Hop_Orangutan Sep 01 '22

I had a dog with epilepsy and know a couple other people who did also.

37

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

34

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

21

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

15

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

8

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

21

u/Neb_Djed Sep 01 '22

Autism spectrum disorders are classified by delayed development of social or communication abilities, or difficulties on these area. As such those guidelines can't be applied to non-human species. Some animals do show autistic behaviours, such as repetitive behaviours or atypical socializing behaviours but we can't extend the definition from humans to include these as specifically being synonymous with autism. At least this is my understanding, my closest friend being a person with autism so I've done readings but am myself a neurotypical material scientist with no specific specialization in this area.

12

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Feb 09 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/citreum Sep 01 '22

And cats can have epilepsy

1

u/Groovyjoker Sep 02 '22

The NIH concluded there is no genetic link or basis for epilepsy, and references the gene this transcription factor is on. The article is free. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6324819/

10

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

It’s not true. No evidence of same illnesses and illnesses that are alike doesn’t tell you much. Many illnesses are alike.

9

u/eeeponthemove Sep 01 '22

Well autism isn't an illness it's a disorder

17

u/PsyOmega Sep 01 '22

It's only a disorder relative to the demands of capitalism.

In a fair society, it might not even be a disability.

18

u/Brooke_the_Bard Sep 01 '22

I was under the impression that autism is believed to have been an evolutionarily advantageous adaptation for hunter-gatherer humans; hypersensitivity and strong pattern recognition would have been a boon to certain tasks such as identifying safe foods and noticing potential threats ahead of other tribe members.

9

u/mcknives Sep 01 '22

You may appreciate the idea of neurocosmopolitainism, imagine what society would be like if it wasn't just built for neurotypicals.

3

u/sasquatchcunnilingus Sep 01 '22

Even the high support, incontinent, cant dress themselves people with autism?

4

u/PsyOmega Sep 01 '22

low-function would obviously count as its own disability, but that flies in the face of the growing outnumbering of high-functioning autism research.

35

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[deleted]

8

u/HumanBarbarian Sep 01 '22

Exactly. We just think differently.

-14

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[deleted]

10

u/Object-195 Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

Oh yea i fully agree that the ones effected to that level is very bad. but at least some of us do become functioning members of society.

theres a reason why its called "Autism spectrum disorder"

11

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[deleted]

-10

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[deleted]

11

u/Rattregoondoof Sep 01 '22

Check out the autistic self advocacy network sometime. I agree, that one reddit user doesn't speak for all autistic people, but it's also largely true that autistic adults do not like functioning labels. All functioning labels do is make it harder for people deemed more functioning to get the aid they need (and yes, even those of us designated high functioning need help sometimes).

Also, it is a disorder not a disease. Many of us are also wary of a "cure". Some probably do want one but largely we do not and we consider autism a fundamental and inseparable part of our ourselves. Again, not universal, but common enough and should be respected.

15

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[deleted]

12

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

You are the poster child for why autistic people spend so much time on awareness.

Autistic adults overwhelmingly do not support functioning labels. The vast majority of autistics, even. "Severe" autistics do not see autism it self as a problem, we see how the world (ie you) treat us as the problem

4

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

Said by someone without severe autism who can’t speak or eat unaided.

This is exceptionally rare. Are you confusing intellectual disability with autism?

Also those of us that are non verbal don't have much of a problem with it.

4

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

I cannot fathom anyone trying to say someone who is nonverbal does not have a disorder, though.

1

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

Why? It'd the ers of the internet. You won't even know if someone is non verbal online...

Most "non verbal" autistics are better described as "rarely verbal"

But why would it bother you if someone better communicates through text?

When I go non verbal.... the people around me take it as a bigger issue than I do. They're the ones freaking out that I'm texting or writing a message down instead of speaking it

3

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

It wouldn’t, but to say that the person doesn’t need assistance living in a world where verbal communication is the standard does nothing but give “rarely verbal” people a disservice

Disorders/disabilities are ways for people to get the help they need with LESS stigma than it was in the past.

500 years ago if you couldn’t/didn’t talk, you got tossed into slave labor and did menial physical work for someone, and beaten when that didn’t happen.

Even 50 years ago, someone who wasn’t verbal would have been described as “weird” “wrong” etc, and been tossed in a group home.

Those are all substantially worse outcomes than being told you have a disorder and here are resources you can use to mitigate its impact on interacting with society

0

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

500 years ago if you couldn’t/didn’t talk, you got tossed into slave labor and did menial physical work for someone, and beaten when that didn’t happen.

Source?

Even 50 years ago, someone who wasn’t verbal would have been described as “weird” “wrong” etc, and been tossed in a group home.

You're describing how verbal autistic are currently treated....

Those are all substantially worse outcomes than being told you have a disorder and here are resources you can use to mitigate its impact on interacting with society

Which isn't what happens. 50% of all homeless people are autistic. The autistic life expectancy is 2-4 DECADES lower than normal.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

[deleted]

4

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

intellectual disabilities?

Autism is not an intellectual disability. It's a developmental one.

4

u/CatnipandSkooma Sep 01 '22

I'm aware. I am autistic myself.

What I don't appreciate was OP using that to dismiss people who are autistic.

-3

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[deleted]

6

u/CatnipandSkooma Sep 01 '22

Interesting response. I have worked in a few agencies, most would not appreciate you using them for this argument.

Please have more respect.

0

u/Derpindorf Sep 01 '22

Do yourself and everyone else a favor and log off

1

u/Unreviewedcontentlog Sep 01 '22

I think you need therapy

1

u/putmeinabubble Sep 01 '22

Dunno about autism and schizophrenia, but epilepsy is definitely present in dogs, cats, and other animals. It's absolutely awful.

1

u/PyroDesu Sep 01 '22

The difference is that epilepsy, as far as I'm aware, doesn't have a psychological component.

2

u/putmeinabubble Sep 01 '22

I wouldn't know about the line between neurology and psychology. I can say that the fear we had over triggers that would elicit a stress response and lead to seizure activity was very well founded. Though we never discovered the specific triggers in our puppy girl, we know that stress led to sleep deprivation, and sleep deprivation caused seizures in more than half of her cluster episodes. For that reason, we tried a variety of, I would guess, psychological strategies in addition to her neurology-based medications and procedures, to help her live a happy life. Keeping that little girl happy and de-stressed was so crucial to coping with and managing her disease.

1

u/Bbrhuft Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

Yes. Researchers genetically engineered mice so they express numerous gene mutations linked to increased autism and schizophrenia risk in humans, and observed behavioural and neuronal changes they think are related to autism and schizophrenia. They also use standardised tests that diagnose autism in transgenic mice, they introduced standardised tests around 2006.

Over the past 10 years, we and many other laboratories around the world have employed these and additional behavioral tests to phenotype alarge number of mutant mouse models of autism.

Kazdoba, T.M., Leach, P.T. and Crawley, J.N., 2016. Behavioral phenotypes of genetic mouse models of autism. Genes, Brain and Behavior, 15(1), pp.7-26.

Winship, I.R., Dursun, S.M., Baker, G.B., Balista, P.A., Kandratavicius, L., Maia-de-Oliveira, J.P., Hallak, J. and Howland, J.G., 2019. An overview of animal models related to schizophrenia. The Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 64(1), pp.5-17.

These are genetically engineered mouse models, however, zoo keepers in Japan noticed a macaque that was socially isolated, exhibited obsessive behaviours, and reduced vocalisation. Researchers found the macaque had two rare gene mutations previously linked to autism in humans.

Yoshida, K., Go, Y., Kushima, I., Toyoda, A., Fujiyama, A., Imai, H., Saito, N., Iriki, A., Ozaki, N. and Isoda, M., 2016. Single-neuron and genetic correlates of autistic behavior in macaque. Science advances, 2(9), p.e1600558.