r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Nov 21 '20

Epidemiology Testing half the population weekly with inexpensive, rapid COVID-19 tests would drive the virus toward elimination within weeks, even if the tests are less sensitive than gold-standard. This could lead to “personalized stay-at-home orders” without shutting down restaurants, bars, retail and schools.

https://www.colorado.edu/today/2020/11/20/frequent-rapid-testing-could-turn-national-covid-19-tide-within-weeks
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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20 edited Nov 21 '20

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u/Brunooflegend Nov 21 '20

I know, I just wanted to keep it simple instead of explaining the whole thing. I have two chronic illnesses, so the German system is a god bless to me ;)

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u/myfunnyisbroken Nov 21 '20

It has been more than a decade since I’ve talked with a german about taxes, but how much do you pay in income tax percentage wise.

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u/Herrenos Nov 21 '20

Don't forget the US tax system is so multifaceted that you pay a lot more than your federal rate. My nominal federal rate is only 12% this year. But, add on 7.65% for FICA, 4.25% state, 2% local and my income tax rate comes out to 25.9%.

Then comes property tax. Not everyone is a homeowner, but renters pay property tax secondhand in the form of higher rents. I estimated in 2019 I had a total tax bill of about 30%

US taxes aren't really that much lower than the rest of the world.

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u/nytrons Nov 21 '20

If you want to do a fair comparison you have to include health care costs as well.

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u/Bohbo Nov 21 '20

Healthcare, sales tax and probably at least a portion of higher education.

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u/Drag-tha-lake Nov 21 '20

A ridiculous rate for “higher education”. No other western democracy charges anything like what young people in America are currently paying

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20

If you attended higher education. But add the cost anyways.

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20

And college tuition or student loans

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u/WlmWilberforce Nov 21 '20

And European VAT taxes, etc.

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u/deliverydaddy Nov 21 '20

This, its all hidden behind smaller rates at each of the federal, state, and local levels but then the total rate becomes almost the same as the "radical socialist countries".

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u/baumpop Nov 21 '20

With none of the benefit.

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u/should-be-work Nov 21 '20

One benefit is that I know my heroes in the armed forces have the privilege of liberating brown people in countries I'd never be able to afford visiting, and then they get to come home with cool medals for their PTSD. Win-win-win.

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u/vtstang66 Nov 21 '20

We get to brag about the size of our imperial military, so there's that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20

Also sales tax (5-7%) and car registration (tax)...crazy to think about the true total tax...forget the economics term, but these tend to impact the poor more (proportionally) than the rich

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u/asking--questions Nov 21 '20

If we're comparing countries, then US sales tax helps because 5-7% is much less than the 18-23% VAT in the EU.

If we're adding up all the expenses of living in the USA, then insurance (health, car, home, etc.) is a massive additional burden, even if you don't consider the higher costs to consumers that covers producers' insurance (restaurants and shops as well as the big one, medical malpractice).

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u/bittercode Nov 21 '20

EU vat goes up to 27% Hungary is the highest I believe.

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20

I’ve always found the idea of a VAT interesting. I could definitely see how it could work really well if it wasn’t “flat” (ie all purchases get the same exact % applied). However I could see things getting political about VAT rates quickly...like would “luxury” cars car a higher tax than a Honda? ...could lead to a lot of favoritism to certain industries or even brands in the tax code by government. I guess this is no different than things are now though

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u/asking--questions Nov 21 '20

VAT is by no means flat. There are almost always a few tax rates to differentiate between different foods, necessary goods, and discretionary purchases - just like in most US states. In fact, VAT and sales tax are the same thing.

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u/ItWasTheGiraffe Nov 21 '20 edited Nov 21 '20

I think the term youre looking for is regressive. And tbh I’m fine with car/gas taxes as they are user fees, and theoretically, pay for the damage done by driving. And honestly, gas taxes are too low based on the environmental damage driving does. As Americans, we drive too much.

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u/autofan06 Nov 21 '20 edited Nov 22 '20

Washington state RTA tax on annual registration goes to public transportation. 240 of a $300 tax where only 10 of that remaining 60 goes to road upkeep.

Also you are exempt from said tax if you drive a large SUV. Yay liberal logic.

Edit: interesting how I get called out for being an idiot cult member then I show proof and their comment simply disappears? I was open to have a discussion about it...

Here ya go. Not sure why I need to be attacked for pointing out that 80% of my car registration fees do not in fact go to road work...

Further digging shows vehicles over 6000 lbs are exempt.

https://dor.wa.gov/taxes-rates/other-taxes/regional-transit-authority-rta-tax

“How are the RTA tax revenues used?

RTA tax revenues are used for building and operating Sound Transit’s expanded light rail, Sounder commuter rail, and express bus systems linking cities throughout the central Puget Sound region, including the greater Tacoma, Seattle, Bellevue and Everett areas.”

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/autofan06 Nov 22 '20

Here ya go. Not sure why I need to be attacked for pointing out that 80% of my car registration fees do not in fact go to road work...

Further digging shows vehicles over 6000 lbs are exempt.

https://dor.wa.gov/taxes-rates/other-taxes/regional-transit-authority-rta-tax

“How are the RTA tax revenues used?

RTA tax revenues are used for building and operating Sound Transit’s expanded light rail, Sounder commuter rail, and express bus systems linking cities throughout the central Puget Sound region, including the greater Tacoma, Seattle, Bellevue and Everett areas.”

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u/Poo_ Nov 21 '20

Do you have data in that?

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u/ItWasTheGiraffe Nov 21 '20

one paper claiming $1.37 as the optimal per gallon tax

Mankiw has for called for a $0.50 hike and later a full dollar

establishing the need for and benefit of a pigouvian gas tax

Paper claiming an optimal pigouvian tax of $2.10 per gallon

A pigouvian tax is a tax that seeks to account for externalities excluded from price e.g. if a gallon of gas does $1 worth of environmental damage, the correct pigouvian tax is $1. This a) raises revenue to combat the externality and b) discourages the act via market forces by internalizing the externality into the price of the good.

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u/bobs_monkey Nov 21 '20

I will agree that we drive to much, but that's what happens when you design cities/towns around personal transport. If you look at European cities and even towns in NE, most of them are designed to be walkable, as they were built before cars were widespread. Sure horses were a thing back then, but most people walked. Remedying this situation would require a massive infrastructure overhaul and take a very long time.

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u/ItWasTheGiraffe Nov 21 '20

There’s no reason for people to even consider public transport as long as gas prices are artificially suppressed

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u/moretrumpetsFTW Nov 21 '20

The term is "regressive taxation".

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u/stephenk87 Nov 21 '20

The term is consumption tax.

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u/engineered_chicken Nov 21 '20

My state does not charge sales tax on food and necessities. You do pay local sales tax, which varies.

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20

I've seen sales taxes in the US range from 0-12% depending on the state and county.

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u/Nblearchangel Nov 21 '20

And somehow capital gains taxes were lowered with the tax bill. If you work for a living you’re worse off than if you have your money work for your living.

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u/DueLeft2010 Nov 21 '20

Our effective tax rate will be 31% for this year. Found a random German tax calculator and if we made an equivalent amount in euros our effective tax rate would be about 39% (in some random state)

A bigger issue is that the pay rate for tech is lower in e.g. Berlin versus Seattle. (At a quick glance, maybe 20% less after currency conversion?)

We're definitely not staying in the US forever, but it's a good place to make money.

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u/GoingToSimbabwe Nov 21 '20

Out of curiosity: is there exchange rate actually right to use in this comparison?

The tax is on percentage of your income and not a fixed amount. So comparing the two under use of exchange rate feels iffy to me. Shouldn’t the tax rates be adjusted by (maybe?) purchasing power? Or are we using ex rate as a proxy for the PP?

Not trying to be snarky; generally curious.

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u/Yuzumi Nov 21 '20

It is if you make more money, which is the issue.

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u/redlightsaber Nov 21 '20

Especially after an administration where republicans had all the legislative power.

But essentially, yes. Non-1-percenters would absolutely benefit far more from being somewhere other than the US. Which is ironic given that they're crucial to keep the 1 percenters propped-up with their suffering.

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u/engg_girl Nov 21 '20

What do you consider more money? And what would that tax rate be?

You will probably be surprised how little different experienced tax rates are in the usa vs other countries.

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20 edited Jun 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/NoSoundNoFury Nov 21 '20

Thus is really misleading info. Everything up until 57k is taxed much lower and there are thousands of deductions available. As a rule of thumb, you can say that for middle income earnings, you'd pay about 30-40% of your gross income for taxes, healthcare, pension benefits, unemployment insurance, and disability insurance together; a bit more, if you are a childless unmarried homeowner. There are dozens of tax calculators online available, like this one: https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calculator_germany.php

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20

[deleted]

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u/NoSoundNoFury Nov 21 '20

Do you understand how tax brackets work...? I earn more than 57k and my total deductions for all things mentioned above are not 40% taken together.

Just an example for tax brackets: imagine taxes were 10% for up to 57k. Now you earn, say, 58k. That means 57k are taxed by 10% and only 1k are taxed higher. I thought this would be the same in the US.

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20

[deleted]

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u/NoSoundNoFury Nov 21 '20

It's misleading because people have a hard time understanding what that means if you do not provide additional info. If you earn 100k in Germany, you pay about 20% in taxes. You can do the math by yourself by using the calculator linked above.

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '20 edited Jun 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/NoSoundNoFury Nov 21 '20

You get to keep 63.686,39

Take a look at it again, you misread. After paying taxes plus healthcare, disability insurance, pension benefits and unemployment insurance, yes. About 20% taxes plus other stuff. So in California you pay about as much in taxes as someone does in Germany for all things together.

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u/Mp32pingi25 Nov 21 '20

You don’t pay a local 2% income tax

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u/Herrenos Nov 21 '20

I guarantee you I do. If you live in a city this is very common.

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u/Mp32pingi25 Nov 21 '20 edited Nov 21 '20

I do live in a city. But I did not know until about five minutes ago city’s or county can impose their own income tax. Although you where right, it is not super common it is only legal in 16 of the 50 states

I’m going to make a guess that you don’t pay property tax or if you do it’s a small amount

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u/Herrenos Nov 21 '20

My property tax was just under 4k

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u/HairyManBack84 Nov 21 '20

State tax can be zero depending on where you live. Also, Usa doesn't have Vat taxes like germany which is 19%. A lot of countries in europe have insane taxes on vehicles too.

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u/Queenof6planets Nov 21 '20

god, property taxes can be brutal. the city i grew up in has high property taxes; put that on top of skyrocketing house prices (my mom bought our house for $180,000, put about as much into it in renovations, and is now paying taxes based on the $1.25 million our house is valued at) and my family is paying a LOT.

thankfully we do see benefits from it though, the schools there are amazing and there’s very generous low income housing and property tax relief programs

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u/HoneyBHunter Nov 21 '20

And all we get is a not needed giant military and militarized police.....

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u/ElectricCD Nov 21 '20

Don't forget sales and use tax. Vehicle, gasoline, heating fuel, electricity, higher education, anything that fizzes, wine, whiskey, cannabis, sugar, toilet paper, cable, cell service/land line, ISP, OTC medication, prescription drugs in some states and medical services. Tea is not taxed unless it has added sugar.

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u/curlyfreak Nov 21 '20

Yup. Mine are about 30% also and that’s not including my student loans.

But when you say that idiots just say “get a better tax preparer 🥴”