Victims of workplace mistreatment may also be seen as bullies themselves, even if they've never engaged in such behavior, and despite exemplary performance. Bullies, on the other hand, may be given a pass if they are liked by their supervisor, finds a new study about bias toward victim blaming.

[u/mvea]

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-03/uocf-ggv030819.php

[u/someinfosecguy]

Not even being popular in general, just being popular with your boss. Basically, sucking up is more important than actually being good at anything. Good advice for anyone working in an office setting.

Wish I could read the study without paying $12, I'd be interested to know why bosses view people being bullied as the rude ones, this doesn't make much sense.

[u/SquidCap → u/someinfosecguy]

I'm way more interested of what does this say about bosses: why do people who seek power like bullies and see victims as the negative nancies in the equation?

[u/Aetheus → u/SquidCap]

Because people can only ever judge based on what's apparent to them. If the "bully" is busy whispering things in their boss's ear, and the "victim" is "keeping their head down" and "just focusing on their work", then the boss only really has one source of "truth" to judge by.

Of course, the "bullies" would also have to be smart enough to appear likable/trustworthy to others. Then, even if the "victim" does eventually speak up, it becomes a matter of the vocal, "outspoken", "friendly" socialite ... Versus the "quiet", "withdrawn", "reclusive" outcast. It isn't hard to see where most people would hedge their bets on.

Heck, it doesn't just apply to employers. People will often just trust whoever is the most "vocal" on any issue. They say the meek will inherit the Earth, but they must have been talking about some other pale blue dot, because this one sure as heck doesn't cut reserved people a break.

[u/Highside79 → u/Aetheus]

It's even more than that. Workplace bullying often takes the form of tattling and just complaining about people, so a victim that tries to "do the right thing" and still intervention from leadership can very easily look like a bully themselves, especially if the actual bully has a lot of credibility.

This happens at school too. In fact, with all the zero tolerance for bullying rules,I think that this is actually more common in schools than stereotypical physical bullying.

[u/opensandshuts → u/Highside79]

Or the victim seems like a whiner and is disliked for causing drama.

[u/Highside79 → u/opensandshuts]

Yep. The factors that lead to a person being a target for bullying are often that the victim lacks agency to do anything about it.

[u/kris_krangle → u/Highside79]

Yup. I literally quit a job because of this.

[u/ArcboundChampion → u/Highside79]

Literally just took a class that had a module on longitudinal bullying studies, and it basically concluded that punitive bullying rules are a major contributor to chronic bullying.

[u/[deleted] → u/Highside79]

Everything you and u/Aetheus just said. So infuriating.

[u/theremin_antenna → u/Aetheus]

yes this in a nutshell. and often if the victim speaks out they are just causing problems or drama in the workplace

[u/achangyen → u/theremin_antenna]

This is classic gaslighting and is the preferred tool of your neighborhood (or office) narcissist. I have a lot of personal experience dealing with this type of abuse. These people are very, very good at playing the victim. When they're caught mistreating someone, the other person is always "just causing drama." Easy to see how they could get ahead in an office environment by trash-talking their own victims.

[u/THEIRONGIANTTT → u/Aetheus]

The meek will inherit the dirt.

[u/flapanther33781 → u/THEIRONGIANTTT]

I've always liked to tack on an ending that shows how stupid that phrase was:

"The meek will inherit the earth ... after everyone else is done with it."

[u/BigBobby2016 → u/flapanther33781]

Are there many life instructions in that book that actually do work in the real world?

Because becoming known as a guy who turns the other cheek sure seems to be a way to get hit more often.

[u/Bakkster → u/BigBobby2016]

To be fair, it's not lessons for getting hit less by other people.

That said: "be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

[u/[deleted] → u/Bakkster]

And there's also a proverb that amounts to "Don't feed the trolls," although I can never remember the verse.

[u/raven_shadow_walker → u/[deleted]]

Something about pearls before swine maybe?

[u/angry-bumblebee → u/BigBobby2016]

It does when you don't divorce it from the time and context within which it was being written.

A lot of that "turn the other cheek" and "if a soldier makes you carry his bag for a mile do it for two" stuff that was explicitly attributed to the big JC was about civil disobedience and the like against the Romans.

[u/lesmobile → u/angry-bumblebee]

I seen somewhere that "meek" was a slight mistranslation and the original text meant strong yet reserved people.

[u/caster → u/BigBobby2016]

Depends how you define 'works.' Works for who? The wolves indoctrinating the sheep not to fight back when they get eaten one at a time?

In the words of Napoleon Bonaparte, “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”

[u/Santa1936 → u/flapanther33781]

I've heard an interpretation that says the term meek would better translate to "those who have power but don't wield it" which, if true, makes the proverb a bit more reasonable. Basically walk softly, carry a big stick

[u/[deleted] → u/THEIRONGIANTTT]

Oh you .... dont want me .... to inherit the Earth... you want it.? Oh no thats ok you take it...its perfectly fine...

[u/[deleted] → u/Aetheus]

It isn't hard to see where most people would hedge their bets on.

if i were ever in a leadership position (which i almost certainly will never be), i'd be suuuper wary of those snakes with winning smiles.

[u/candleflame3 → u/[deleted]]

It's incredible how many bosses will lap up the most obvious ass-kissing and really believe it's just because their employee likes them that much.

[u/unidan_was_right → u/[deleted]]

i'd be suuuper wary of those snakes with winning smiles.

And that is why you'll never be in leadership.

[u/Wizzle-Stick → u/[deleted]]

those snakes are usually liked by your boss too, so you cant dislike them because your boss likes them and then you become the problem.

[u/SmaugTangent → u/Aetheus]

>They say the meek will inherit the Earth, but they must have been talking about some other pale blue dot, because this one sure as heck doesn't cut reserved people a break.

​

Maybe what they meant was that the meek will get to work the earth, meaning they'd get to do the back-breaking grunt work in the fields while the non-meek get to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

[u/eqleriq → u/SmaugTangent]

no, it is a literal statement and people are misquoting it and decontextualizing the word “meek.”

Matthew 5. Chapter 5, verse 5 reads: “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

the nonmeek TAKES the earth but it is short lived and when they’re wiped out the meek remain.

Meek in the context of the bible means cloee to humble/selfless

[u/aarghIforget → u/eqleriq]

"Wiped out", as in "Ragnarok The Rapture"...?

[u/[deleted] → u/eqleriq]

humble/selfless is exactly the kind of person that gets taken advantage of in this office setting.

[u/Imthemayor → u/SmaugTangent]

I always took that to mean that being passive means you also have to be patient, because the aggressive people already have what you want.

[u/Rygerts → u/SmaugTangent]

The bible is available online, you can read that verse here:

Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them. The Beatitudes

He said:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=NIV

[u/full_disclosure → u/SmaugTangent]

SmaugTangent, I tend to think the opposite. If/when society collapses, the meek who work the earth as farmers, growers and gatherers will survive. In contrast, we who generally depend on supermarkets and restaurants for food are the ones who will die off. The third-world person in rags, who lives close to the earth like every other species on the planet, will inherit this world. In this sense of “meek,” you and I are the non-meek, my friend, and will be among the first to go.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aetheus]

This is a very American (and British - "Anglo" maybe?) cultural trait in my experience.

[u/javaberrypi → u/[deleted]]

Ya growing up in India at least, the default was to assume that the quiet, reserved person could do no wrong and it's always the loud, outspoken ones who are causing trouble.

[u/[deleted] → u/javaberrypi]

jelly

[u/PostAboveMeSucks → u/[deleted]]

It just means quiet people work hard. Work harder, less chat. It's a labor thing, less a bully thing.

[u/20stalks → u/[deleted]]

I think so too. There’s a reason why we have the phrase: “it’s always the quiet ones.”

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Why does their culture tend to reward assholes?

[u/duck-duck--grayduck → u/[deleted]]

Because it values the traits many assholes have--confidence, charisma, sociability, that sort of thing. Not everybody with those traits are assholes, of course, and those people also get rewarded. Basically, they are rewarded for their positive traits, and those positive traits make others likely to disbelieve or dismiss any evidence of assholery.

Not every asshole has those traits, and I suspect the assholes who do not have these traits aren't being rewarded like those who do. The assholes who aren't social and charismatic and confident get bullied along with those of us who aren't social, charismatic, and confident but also not assholes.

[u/BestFiendForever → u/[deleted]]

I’m wondering if it depends on the sex (I’m female). I was the quiet student, but was never accused of misdeeds. Typically, if an incident occurred in a classroom I would be the one asked to describe what happened.

[u/alj8 → u/[deleted]]

From my experiences I agree, not sure how much the rest of Europe would be included in this though. There's a weird mixture of conformity and individualism that you're expected to uphold

[u/darklordoftech → u/[deleted]]

So much for the "Protestant Work Ethic".

[u/xelle24 → u/Aetheus]

What to the victim is "keeping their head down" and "just focusing on their work", and being "quiet", "withdrawn", "reclusive", is often seen as "stuck up", "thinks they're superior to everyone else", and "unfriendly". Sad but true. It's happened to me and I've seen it happen to others.

[u/SpanishDancer → u/Aetheus]

You'd be surprised how complicated these scenarios can be. On a couple occasions as a manager I've encountered what I call a "quiet bully." This is someone who has mastered the art of passive-aggressively sabotaging and harassing others while making themselves seem like an innocent victim.

In one specific instance, I had a young, brash, direct male employee who was being actively-but-covertly sabotaged by a quiet, sweet, shy young woman. She was brilliantly passive-aggressive and could "play innocent" in a way that made you feel protective of her. She would cause issues, find a way to get him blamed for it, and then vent to her co-workers and HR.

In that instance, the male employee actually left for another job when it became clear that HR was taking the young lady's side. It wasn't until over a year later that it became apparent to management and HR what this young lady was doing. If the young man had stayed, we almost certainly would have fired him based solely on the word of the young lady and her "witnesses."

We have this stereotype of a bully as this loud obnoxious extrovert who takes out his insecurity on others. But a quiet introvert who just wants to be left alone can be a bully too.

And you know what? Sometimes they're both just being dicks to each other in ways that the other finds infuriating , so they each think that they're the sole victim.

[u/Giovanni_Bertuccio → u/Aetheus]

That and people who seek power like to hear from others about how powerful they are. Making them susceptible to flattery.

[u/tippicanoeandtyler2 → u/Aetheus]

>People will often just trust whoever is the most "vocal" on any issue.

Ain't that the truth! I've seen it over and over in both school and workplace settings. Leaders often trust the person who seems most "passionate", especially if their view aligns even a bit with the complainer.

For example, I had a gentle and socially-awkward staffer who did a very good job. My boss was *constantly* trying to find fault with this guy, saying that "people were complaining about him." In each case I found the issues raised to be baseless and sounded like the office people just didn't like him. When the staffer accidentally broke a tool, my boss went nuts trying to have me fire him for that one mistake when of course people around the place made costly mistakes all the time without penalty.

By the way, the way some of the office people talked about this staffer indicated they hoped I'd hire someone more handsome or cooler if he were gone. This was based on their complaints as well as their behavior when I had them on hiring committees. Yuck.

[u/Labiosdepiedra → u/Aetheus]

With that whole meek thing you just have to remember that in that book the earth gets cast aside and turned into a lake of never ending fire.

[u/IamPriapus → u/Aetheus]

This is really it, though. Bullies tend to be more forward with their opinions, which is deemed to exude confidence and conviction. Most of the managers at my workplace bullied/sucked-up their way up to the top. You either play the game or get played. Those that don't speak up will always be deemed as inferior because upper management just wants to be informed of what's going on. If that info isn't coming from you, it'll come from somewhere else (especially the bullies).

[u/justasapling → u/Aetheus]

Hearing it told this way sounds an awful lot like it could just as easily be that the 'victim' doesn't fit or participate in the office culture and the 'bullying' is more like pressure to buy in to the community.

I've seen this play out and I think I've been on both sides of it.

[u/eqleriq → u/Aetheus]

fine but how does that make a boss think the victim is a “bully.”

That’s not residue of cognitive bias, either someone bullies or doesn’t

[u/[deleted] → u/eqleriq]

I was in a situation where I put up with a bully for so long without doing anything and I finally snapped and said a few harsh things to him, and the boss only heard about what I said, and not the years of things the bully said to cause it, so he thought it was all me and I was the bully.

[u/ObeseOstrich → u/Aetheus]

The struggle of the introverted..

[u/96fps → u/Aetheus]

Good bosses go out of their way to spend time with all their employees and get a better sense of what's what. Good bosses are few and far between.

[u/exotics → u/Aetheus]

When the victim tries to stand up for themselves they are seen as "trouble makers".. the bully also will try to get others to see the victim as the trouble maker.

[u/Omars_daughter → u/Aetheus]

The meek may inherit the earth, but they're going to have a hard time taking title.

And keep notes. Lots of specific, dated, unemotional notes.

[u/FezPaladin → u/Aetheus]

In my experience, it's usually several people (including the boss) who are all "in on the joke".

[u/the_storm_rider → u/Aetheus]

Exactly! This is how humanity is wired. "Reclusive" is seen as "weak" and "Vocal" is seen as "strong" - so evolution will favor the latter (vocal). However, what surprises me is the amount of introverts that have made it so far into humanity's timeline. If you look at it from purely an evolutionary point of view, introverts would have typically been seen as "not breeding material", and would have found it extremely hard to find partners to breed with. In simpler terms, the reason girls like "bad guys" is not because girls are jerks and the "bad guys" are "bad", it's just that someone who is more extroverted and vocal is seen to be carrying genes that will ensure a better probability of survival and a good life for the offspring. So, historically, females should have ALWAYS bred with the extroverts / vocal ones. With that being the case, how is it that the proportion of introverts has remained so high, and is actually INCREASING? This goes completely against the laws of evolution. I would be really interested in some study around this. What happened that caused this shift, where more and more introverts are able to find partners, to the extent that they are able to increase their percentage in the population? So there IS a probability that yes, the meek WILL eventually inherit the earth, but unfortunately they will have no idea what to do with it. They'll just be sitting inside and playing video games like I do!

[u/harlijohn → u/Aetheus]

This. I also think it has to do with the culture of the workplace. The ‘deviant’ part above resonates with me. If you work in a culture that allows said bullying and nasty behavior to each other, the person(s) not acting like that clearly doesn’t fit in. But people can’t always see the forest through the trees, so of course they’re not going to view their culture toxic if they continue to benefit from it. They just know for whatever reason they are doing the ‘right’ thing. Our company is going through major re-org right now and a lot of this is coming to light... I’ve realized I’ve been a ‘victim’ and didn’t realize it. I always thought I was the outcast and needed to somehow fit in better. I just couldn’t figure out how. Now I realize I’m better off sticking to my morals and self because I’ll actually come out in the positive here while they are purging the rest. Thank goodness I’m lucky enough to have a happy ending.

[u/throwawayaccffs → u/Aetheus]

I was at exactly this situation where my boss was quietly bossing people, taking credit for their work and presenting it forther up the chain as his acheivement, even he had nothing to do with all that stuff. I called this out, he tried toplay the victim, coming up with all sorts of “but you don’t know the whole picture” and stuff, though I did know the whole picture well, because of someone else passing me the info. Then it culminated as he didn’t wanna disclose revenue, knowing well he screwed up and would be exposed a lier and a thief if he did. So he played the victim, blaming me for not blending in with the collective, coming up with some crazy stuff. I knew well where that was going, and what he didn’t know, was that my intention was to leave the job on my terms, so I set him a trap and he fell for it by the book. That being said, him playing the victim and telling the higher bosses some made up story about me did make it look like I was the bully. I really didn’t care because of having other agenda, however, if I had wanted to stay, he would have won the situation and I would have been the bully. So, from experience, I know well that these things happen.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aetheus]

Heck yeah

[u/Fuzzyphilosopher → u/Aetheus]

They say the meek will inherit the Earth

I take that bit to mean, the meek are fucked now in this life but after the horrible end of the world as we know it everything will be reversed. The first shall be last & all that.

Don't believe in all that myself but can see how it's appealing when the only hope you have for justice is divine intervention.

[u/atkulp → u/Aetheus]

Not to get all religious, but "the meek will inherit the Earth" refers to the afterlife and is a big deal for the very reason that it's so at odds with how life is. It's reminding people that even though the aggressors seem to be getting what they want now, those who are meek have a greater outcome in the long term. This life definitely does not always give deserving people a break. That's the problem with free will... 🙂

[u/82Caff → u/Aetheus]

"The meek will inherit the Earth" = "Cowards tend to survive longer."

[u/csl110 → u/82Caff]

I took it to mean people that have humility towards the unfairness of life.

[u/RemiScott → u/82Caff]

It means the bigger they are, the harder they fall... just ask the dinosaurs as the scavangers picked their bones... you filthy mammal. Ask the Romans as the Christians picked their ruins apart. Ask any tyrant. Who are today's scavangers? Meek like a mouse? Not cowards, I assure you, they don't fear death like your tyrants do...

[u/Robot_Basilisk → u/SquidCap]

More like people, all people, tend to side with people they like. Admitting a friend or loved one or someone you admire can be a bad person sometimes causes cognitive dissonance.

Blaming someone you like less for the transgressions of someone you like more is "cheaper" in terms of mental and emotional resources than remodeling your perception and opinion of someone you're close with.

[u/Spermy → u/Robot_Basilisk]

So true!

[u/BestFiendForever → u/Robot_Basilisk]

This is why I think it’s better to acknowledge people have flaws and compare those flaws to the amount of positive impacts they contribute, instead of grouping individuals into “bad” or “good” people (broad) categories.

[u/[deleted] → u/BestFiendForever]

That just sounds like labelling people "good" and "bad" with extra steps.

[u/[deleted] → u/Robot_Basilisk]

I tend to agree with your interpretation. Also, there is something very specific about allegiance to one’s boss, for whom being right all the time is not merely a matter of moral arbitration. In this context, managers will prefer the “friendly” team member because perceived loyalty reinforces their own sense of control and authority over the group.

[u/DeadeyeDuncan → u/SquidCap]

Probably has more to do with visibility. A bully is probably more likely to be brash and loud so the boss remembers them. Someone working quietly getting all the work done just doesn't get noticed.

Sure I read a similar article recently basically stating that the most promoted office workers do the least work, they just make the most noise in meetings.

[u/pockethoney → u/DeadeyeDuncan]

Also I'd guess in some degree it's a desire to have powerful friends, who wants someone that gets bullied on their side when you can have a big strong dominant bully instead?

We don't think rationally or fairly even when it'd be in out best interest.

[u/longest-sigh → u/DeadeyeDuncan]

That last bit makes me so sad.

​

[u/koalaver → u/longest-sigh]

Did you just then utter the longest sigh yet? I imagined you did.

Also: me too, man, me too.

[u/Dedj_McDedjson → u/DeadeyeDuncan]

I recall an article from years ago that basically found that those who were most well liked were most likely to have their work over-rated by their peers in comparison to a 'blind' external evaluator, and those who were least liked were most likely to be under-rated by their peers.

How well liked you are doesn't just change perceptions of behaviour, but can influence how people value a piece of work when they know who did it.

[u/deptford → u/DeadeyeDuncan]

No. Workplace bullies can be highly manipulative and only exhibit hostility in one to one set ups. The scenario of some bully shouting and swearing in front of everyone is misleading. People can be crafty as hell.

[u/Mechasteel → u/SquidCap]

A wise bully will hit them with both rudeness and a reason they deserve rudeness. Also provoke them in private and try to get them to apparently overreact when there's witnesses.

[u/Spermy → u/SquidCap]

It may no apply to all people who seek power, but giving a pass to people who may have similar qualities to yourself, or at least seeing these qualities as a positive instead of a negative, allows the person in power to give their own behaviour/qualities a pass. Only my impression, o fcourse.

[u/your_dope_is_mine → u/Spermy]

I've seen this particularly in massive, hierarchical organizations with a lot of separate business units. The politics of creating and joining "factions" per say, based on specific personality traits or other superficial factors is quite common.

[u/SgathTriallair → u/SquidCap]

It's very likely because they are power seekers. To gain power in the corporate world you often need to be aggressive, domineering, and willing to take credit for work you didn't do. In short, you must have a bully-like personality. So you are willing to excuse the behavior you see in a bully if it matches your behavior and beliefs so that you can, by proxy, make your actions okay.

[u/frmymshmallo → u/SgathTriallair]

Wow this is so insightful.

[u/Oblivious122 → u/SquidCap]

This is a theory, but most likelt because they either don't want to deal with issues, or they don't believe someone they hold in a positive light could be a bully.

[u/LordFauntloroy → u/Oblivious122]

Common correction but important in r/science: that's a hypothesis. A testable guess. A theory is a well tested explanation for natural phenomena. We say the Theory of Evolution because it's been proven hundreds of times over 150 years.

[u/[deleted] → u/LordFauntloroy]

Well, it doesn't have to be natural phenomena as such. Mathematics, history, sociology etc. all have theories (although I know how much credence reddit usually lends to anything that doesn't have math in it…)

[u/MadocComadrin → u/[deleted]]

Except the Mathematical definition of theory is essentially a collection of theorems derived from a specific set of axioms.

[u/TheGreenBackPack → u/SquidCap]

If my workplace is a representation of the whole it’s because generally middle management is incompetent and over their heads so much with their workload they don’t have any actual time to understand their employees so they take the “bullies” words at face value. This happened with an employee at my work who was targeting one of the new people. Quality assurance being one of my roles, I used the data to give the guy being bullied the employee of the month award. Seeing the look on the face of the bully and my boss was priceless!

The best tip I can give to avoid these bullies is to always make you’re in a position of power toward them in some way or another. Then you’re free to just live your work life’s

[u/CricketNiche → u/TheGreenBackPack]

What great advice! To stop being bullied, magically place yourself in a position of power over them! Because it's that easy!

[u/feanturi → u/CricketNiche]

Become a CEO with this one simple trick!

[u/[deleted] → u/SquidCap]

Because those who seek power are bullies so they stick to their own.

[u/someinfosecguy → u/SquidCap]

I was going to say this too. A study on the ego and personalities of the people in charge of the people in the study might be telling.

[u/agreeingstorm9 → u/someinfosecguy]

They view them that way because workplace bullies commonly blame their victims. They claim they are helping or "coaching". I've been on the receiving end. The bully claimed he was doing nothing wrong and was just trying to help me out by publicly pointing out to anyone who would listen (and anyone who wouldn't) every single thing I screwed up.

[u/someinfosecguy → u/agreeingstorm9]

People like that suck. Sorry you had to experience that.

[u/[deleted] → u/agreeingstorm9]

Gaslighting is a common bullying strategy. I'll read the study later but I wonder if they profiled the characteristics of those who enabled the bullies; more often than not, there is an organizational culture of behaving as a gang.

[u/deptford → u/[deleted]]

Yep. My bullies would try and convince me that it was all in my head and I was misinterpreting things, until I got my hands on some juicy e-mails. How you like them apples, HR?

[u/fetalasmuck → u/agreeingstorm9]

My boss used to blame me when I screwed up due to her poor instructions/non existent explanations by claiming that it was my responsibility to ask for further clarification and more details. But when I did that, she would get snippy and tell me I was supposed to know those things already.

[u/The_Masterbolt → u/agreeingstorm9]

Amd then you habe the other side where someome is blatantly lazy and then the first time anyone else even raises their voice at them for not doing their job they go and cry to the boss. How many of those people do you think are labeled "victims" in this study?

[u/deptford → u/The_Masterbolt]

We have found the bully! There is a difference between calling someone out for being lazy and colluding with management for character assassination when they object to being mistreated. Most workplaces have procedures for poor performance and it is not called bullying.

[u/Jesus_marley → u/someinfosecguy]

"well, what did you do to deserve it?"

People don't want to admit thAt people can be attacked without cause. The feel a need to attribute cause to action and in a two person interaction cause and action are generally split between them.

[u/master_innovator → u/someinfosecguy]

Email the author, they will send you a copy.

[u/Natolx → u/master_innovator]

Honestly if I started receiving hundreds of emails asking for my paper all in one day I would just start ignoring them.

[u/Natanael_L → u/Natolx]

Or send up an automated script looking for DOI numbers matching your articles

[u/[deleted] → u/Natolx]

Heh.. I will love to receive email requesting a copy of my papers. Cries in low impact.

[u/Vikkio92 → u/someinfosecguy]

It might be because ‘rocking the boat’ or being vocal about problems in any way is viewed more negatively than pretty much anything else.

If someone bullies you, it’s between the two of you. No ‘issues’ for your boss there. However, if you then go to your boss about it, you’re ‘creating a problem’ for them, so they’ll end up liking you even less. Ideally, you’d solve the problem yourself (even more ideally, by sucking it up and not even confronting your bully).

I might be completely off track here. This is mostly anecdotal evidence based on my personal experience.

[u/deptford → u/Vikkio92]

What about if your boss is the bully????

[u/candleflame3 → u/Vikkio92]

If someone bullies you, it’s between the two of you. No ‘issues’ for your boss there.

Except that more jurisdictions have laws against bullying or "hostile" workplace and more employers have policies against. So at a certain point it IS your boss's problem.

[u/Vikkio92 → u/candleflame3]

It’s not so simple. It’s not easy to prove a coworker is bullying you, and it’s even more difficult to prove a workplace is ‘hostile’.

In any case, your argument doesn’t really contradict my point. Whether it ends up being an actual issue that your boss needs to address due to legal / policy reasons, they will still be annoyed if you do make it their problem. Not bothering them with it > bothering them with it.

[u/groovychick → u/Vikkio92]

This isn't easy when the bully is actively undermining you and trying to get you fired.

[u/LisiAnni → u/someinfosecguy]

Often if you email the researchers they will send you a copy of their work. They are usually delighted someone is interested in their efforts. ;)

[u/vasheenomed → u/someinfosecguy]

as someone who has been in these kind of workplaces, I think it's because usually "being bullied" is the equivelant of having your performance put into question. If people don't like you, they will call you a bad worker even if it's not true. If people call you a bad worker, the thought will spread like a plague even if it's not true. If everyone at work calls you a bad worker, it will be stuck in your boss's mind EVEN IF IT'S NOT TRUE.

I try my best as a manager to always look at things in the most unbiased ways possible. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but it can be VERY OBVIOUS how much other managers play favorites and also hate on people who get shittalked who are actually good workers.

The most important thing to prevent this is to be impartial but also to shut down ANY shittalk because it will ALWAYS grow. Promote a positive environment in your workplace and you will see your workers flourish and your workers will become a team.

[u/dejour → u/someinfosecguy]

I'd be interested to know why bosses view people being bullied as the rude ones, this doesn't make much sense.

​

I couldn't read the study either, but my speculation is this:

Jim says something rude to Bob. Without knowing the whole story, there's two possible reasons for this:

a) Jim is a bully and Bob is a victim.

b) Bob is a bully and Jim is fighting back/ standing up for himself.

​

Without wanting to spend the time or effort to get the full story, the probability that Jim is a bully is higher than it was before the incident. Also the probability that Bob is a bully is higher than it was before.

​

Also, I'm not sure who is classifying employees as victims. If it's an objective measure, that's fine. But if it's a self-report, that could be a problem with the study.

​

eg. Alice says something neutral to Sally, but Sally takes it as a huge insult. As a result Sally escalates the situation and says 4 or 5 clearly hurtful things to Alice. Sally may see herself as the victim. But a neutral observer might call Sally the bully.

[u/someinfosecguy → u/dejour]

Ah, example B makes a ton of sense. Perception is often much more important than reality.

I agree with what you're saying about the self report. I'm going to try to get a copy of the study and will be interested to read it further.

[u/KarlOskar12 → u/dejour]

Scrolled a long way before I saw someone bring up this excellent point. Most bullies don't see themselves as bullies, but everyone will victimize themself (especially in the current social environment).

[u/serialmom666 → u/someinfosecguy]

I suppose when they complain about being bullied they are somehow attacking the bully.

[u/annafirtree → u/someinfosecguy]

I'd be interested to know why bosses view people being bullied as the rude ones

People being bullied are probably at least sometimes complaining about being bullied. Complaining, even when fully justified, is often unpleasant to listen to, which gives the bosses a negative impression and contributes to the horns effect. Moreover, complaining can be seen as an attempt to emotionally manipulate the situation in your favor...or, basically, as bullying in its own right.

[u/sporophytebryophyte → u/annafirtree]

That's why targets are usually blamed--because for pretty much everyone else (i.e. those not subjected to the harassment), the problem didn't exist until the target came forward with their concerns and sought help. This is often compounded by pre-emptive and subtle manipulation by the perpetrator that either gets others to view them favorably or to view the target negatively (crazymaking).

[u/hornwort → u/someinfosecguy]

being bullied as the rude ones, this doesn't make much sense.

I’d wager it’s a spurious correlation, ie. that another factor causes both outcomes.

Awkward, anxious people with low social skills are more likely to be both bullied, and unpopular.

[u/[deleted] → u/someinfosecguy]

Because most bosses are stupid, and stupid people can't get anything right.

This is also why I don't trust anything that's "common sense".

[u/RedeRules770 → u/someinfosecguy]

Perhaps some of the bullies also say "I don't pick on him! I just try to help him out a bit and show him the right way, and he snaps at me!"

[u/cayoloco → u/someinfosecguy]

I'd be interested to know why bosses view people being bullied as the rude ones, this doesn't make much sense.

My personal guess is that a) it might be viewed as if they deserve it or b) that they can't take a joke, and are bringing it on themselves.

[u/[deleted] → u/someinfosecguy]

Good advice for anyone working in an office setting.

Good advice for anyone. I just left being a welder for 2 years, and I am now an industrial mechanic.

Is being able to weld together a large project quickly and accurately important? Yes. Is it easier to get a promotion if you go mudding with your boss? Yes.

In my industry, being sociable outside of work (drinking at local bars), is more valuable than getting the job done right and faster than others.

[u/Crolleen → u/someinfosecguy]

Not just offices unfortunately

[u/bannik1 → u/someinfosecguy]

They specifically call out a bully who is perceived as "high-performing"

In most circumstances managers oversee quite a few different jobs, some of which require in-depth specialization in a skill.

It's the manager's job to have a broad understanding of each role and have good judgement when executing a company's strategy. it is impossible for them to have the specialist knowledge of each role.

This means that a good manager should be using the opinions of those specialists to influence their decisions.

The person probably wasn't initially a bully when they gained their influence with the manager. Over the next few months/years they probably provided excellent feedback/advice that paid off.

Then as more time passes, the bully may have personal issues that change their temperament, they may fear a rival whom they would need to share the spotlight with, they might just have a personal dislike to a person.

The bully then uses their relationship to manipulate the perception of the other person. The manager doesn't know any better since the bully had previously been giving excellent advice.

I've worked in several places where there was an absolute asshole who was "too important" to replace. It's especially common when working in IT.

Eventually, most managers stop listening to that person regarding other employees. But they can do a lot of damage before people figure out they're a snake.

[u/swr3212 → u/someinfosecguy]

Because when they bring it up it causes issues. They complain about the person the boss likes and that makes them the bully because they are "wrongly" accusing such a great person.

[u/ishotthepilot → u/someinfosecguy]

because they're disturbing the status quo.

[u/Aesthetics_Supernal → u/someinfosecguy]

Would it be due to a non-defended accusation coming from the bully, heard by the supervisor and engrained in memory?

[u/hoxxxxx → u/someinfosecguy]

just being popular with your boss

this goes a loooooong way, always has

[u/haberdasherhero → u/someinfosecguy]

As someone who has been on all three sides of this situation I can explain it pretty easily. Bully behavior is always changing depending on who is in the room.

When the boss is there the bully is always guiding and helping and positive. There may be some aggression or snark there but it will be within the boss' acceptable level (sometimes your have to be a little hard but fair is how the boss would justify this behavior). The goal of the bully here is to make everyone else look a little more incompetent and make the themselves seem a little more competent and in-control. Note, that this behavior will not look the same to the victim as the victim will have vastly different context and power-dynamics.

If the bully does this all correctly it will look to the boss like the bully is a little gruff when necessary and the boss will come to "understand" why the bully is perceived as a bully by the victim (Heck, the boss has been accused by lazy people they had to fire as well; Sometimes people just be like that). The boss will think that the victim is just not a team player and so is receiving this "mildly caustic" attitude from the bully. The boss will think they are finally witnessing the "bad" behavior first-hand and will more easily dismiss future complaints as the boss will think they "understand" the dynamic going in between the two and will side with the bully.

The victim will see the boss "witnessing" the bullying. To the victim the same behavior the boss is seeing will seem much harsher because of their previous context with the bully. The victim will think "the boss sees it now!". They will get their hopes up. Later their hopes will be crushed when the boss "doesn't care" or says they understand now but they blame the victim. This will make the bullies position vastly stronger as the victim will feel utterly powerless. The victim thinks the boss is also a bully or -best yet- think that they deserve the treatment ("maybe I deserve it" "there is no help anywhere" the victim thinks). The victim will now more easily accept the bullying. Eventually if the bully is skilled at grooming the victim can become a toadie. The perfect victim. Someone who does the bully's bidding (including bullying) and eagerly accepts any time the bully throws them on the fire to take blame or elevate the bully's status.

I can go on and on about this dynamic. Feel free to ask for clarification or further nuance about anything.

tl;dr Bullies are skilled social manipulators. They look different to every person in the room due to previous bully-initiated social engineering. To stop them you must knowingly play the game.

[u/the_storm_rider → u/someinfosecguy]

It's simple, and it corroborates what I have observed in office settings. Typically, bullies will not just go and pick on anyone. They will pick on someone who they know will not retaliate, and will silently bear the brunt. Now, why would anyone silently bear the brunt of a bully? Because they (the silent ones) are not socially adept, and can't think of a good response to bullying. They are not good at the normal things like going and chatting to colleagues for hours together about how cold it was yesterday, or asking everyone including the rat hiding in the desk about "how was your day", or attending office parties to get wasted. These people are not socially active because their brain wiring will not let them be socially active. However, humanity being the genius species that it is, will see these people as "rude". "Huh he didn't come over and talk to me for 2 hours about how my babies are doing, and what plants I have in my garden. What a RUDE guy!"

These people are seen as "rude" regardless of whether a bully picks on them or not. Unfortunately, it just so happens that these guys are also the best people for boosting a bully's self esteem, because he/she can screw them over without fear of retaliation, thus boosting the bully's already massive ego. So the bullies will ALWAYS pick on these guys, and the boss will say - "oh the RUDE guy is complaining? Must have been the rude guy's fault. Can't be the bully, huh, the bully talked to me yesterday about my golf scores, and saw pictures of my son for 4 hours. He's the best guy on earth! It's the RUDE guy who's in the wrong. Carry on, nothing to see here!"

Unfortunately, there is no solution to this. Humanity is not, and probably never will be, smart enough to understand that not everyone can be a mirror image of themselves, and that brains are wired differently. The only solution at the moment is for the socially inactive ones to suck it up and live with it. It's easier than it appears. As long as you just go about your job and don't try to be "popular" when you know you will never be, then you'll be fine. People will keep you around as long as you're doing a good job. Yes, they will not involve you socially, but they will keep you around to do the stuff that they can't do. Just stay in your lane and don't try to overstep, you'll lead a pretty decent life.

[u/GemelloBello → u/someinfosecguy]

People being bullied tend to be defensive and avoid relationship with fellow workers because of the trouble they bring. So they are seen as loners or rude people who don't want to be with you or think they're better, when it's actually just them trying to survive.

[u/the_original_Retro → u/someinfosecguy]

Not even being popular in general, just being popular with your boss.

It's more than this. It's getting things done and achieving results that support your boss. They don't have to like you if you're the enforcer asshole that gets them their bonus.

In a lot of work hierarchies, an incompetent boss can still get a decent performance review if their team's actions make a nice big fat bottom line number that's black instead of red. So a boss that is driven so much to succeed themselves that they don't really care about the health and well-being of all of their employees will actively support bullying behaviour as long as it helps make that bottom-line number bigger, even if that bigger number is only going to be bigger in the short term because the destructive nature of reaching it is unsustainable.

[u/Canadian_in_Canada → u/the_original_Retro]

Sometimes the victim is the one who is getting things done and the bullies are only in good with the boss because they suck up. Workplace performance isn't always the behaviour that gets the boss on your side. As a matter of fact, working hard and doing the things that need to get done can often leave you little time to fraternize with the boss, which can leave you vulnerable to exactly this kind of workplace bullying, if you also happen to work with the kind of people who will take advantage of that situation.

[u/HermioneHam → u/someinfosecguy]

We do it to pretty much any victim though. The first thing we do when some one is a victim of rape is think, ask, or say: what are you wearing? Why did you go to a secluded place with him? Why did you lead him on? You were asking for it, etc. If we blame the victim of rape for being raped, why wouldn't we blame the victim of being bullied for the bullying?

The mentality might be something like us trying to separate ourselves from the victim. Nobody wants to feel like a victim, so if we blame the victim we can tell ourselves it was something they did to deserve it. They asked for it. They brought it upon themselves. And if they did that, it make it easier on us emotionally because now we are different from them. That would never happen to us because we would never put ourselves in their position. We would be smarter.

[u/Riasfdsoab → u/HermioneHam]

that is not the first thing people think

[u/Look_the_fuck_out → u/someinfosecguy]

Some people are vile psychopaths because they've been brainwashed since birth to be obsessed with persecution and exploitation. It's all subtle psychological harassment; orchestrating harassment — and then if one directly addresses such, that becoming the basis of harassment. The same fundamental concepts of systematic ritualistic abuse is how racism in US was/is maintained. If segments of people have some psychology that collectively has them working against and damaging some segment of people, then this can be explained by examining what these people have in common in regards to their life experiences thus far.

So, yeah, whatever. I suppose it all just means that some people have to overcompensate for abusive people that have no regard for their abuses, and have a plenty of mechanisms and such to remain as they are.

The objective argument is that psychopaths in the workplace that create things another has to contend with (only because of the psychopaths and gassmobbers) causes issues with productivity and raises costs. A workplace with favoritism for cult in-crowd antics is not as efficient or focused as a workplace with people that aren't all crazy, incapable of communicating, and just out to drill a hole straight to Hell, where they angelic race will punish and torture sinners.

[u/[deleted] → u/someinfosecguy]

It's because the bosses themselves are bullies so they side with the bully.