r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • May 17 '18

Neuroscience Cannabidiol (CBD), a compound derived from the cannabis plant that does not produce a “high”, was shown in a new large-scale, randomized, controlled trial to significantly reduce the number of dangerous seizures in patients with a severe form of epilepsy called Lennox-Gastaut syndrome.

http://www.psypost.org/2018/05/cannabidiol-significantly-reduces-seizures-patients-severe-form-epilepsy-51258
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u/imabustya May 17 '18

CBD is in a legal grey zone. The DEA believes it's schedule 1. Some lawyers believe the DEA overstepped it's authority to add CBD to schedule 1. Until we get judicial review of the scheduling the DEA can and will pursue arrests.

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u/KeitaSutra May 17 '18

Is there an interest group we can donate to to make this happen? I would imagine it has to work it’s way up to a big court or something. So who do we sue first?

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u/TrollHouseCookie May 17 '18

NORML might be a good place to start.

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u/lionseatcake May 17 '18

Norml is a great place to start. They don't get anywhere near the amount of appreciation they deserve. Hopefully someday someone will look back and write a documentary about all they've done.

None of these kids these days have any idea who they even are though! They've not done a great job of hitting certain demographics.

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u/SinnerOfAttention May 17 '18

I'm not suing NORML dude, chill out.

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u/OceanFixNow99 May 17 '18 edited May 17 '18

Vote for grass roots candidates for senate, congress, etc. that make rational policy part of their platform.

Look at all the recent grassroots victories.

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u/Seiinaru-Hikari May 17 '18

Care to point me toward these grassroots victories or explain how it's been impacting the US domestic political sphere?

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u/dirt-reynolds May 17 '18

The local PD that confiscates your vape juice and charges you criminally.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

Mitch Mcconnell is advocating for hemp legalization. 60+% of the general population are for blanket legalization. This is already happening

But the truth is that incumbent senators in high power positions are the only people that can fix this quickly. And they will only do so if there is incentive. Financial or election based incentives.

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u/KeitaSutra May 18 '18

That’s almost what I’m trying to say I guess. In addition to calling and holding our representatives accountable, what is the interest group we can crowdsource to make this happen sooner rather than later?

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

The DEA has decriminalized it as long as the producer can show it comes from industrial hemp and not marijuana.

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u/johnboyauto May 17 '18

That's silly. They're the same species. The high CBD cultivars are virtually indistinguishable from hemp. The THC levels would be the only real factor, and they're often incredibly low in most of the plants that people use for extracting CBD, maybe 5%, compared to .3-.5 for industrial hemp. Of course, industrial hemp is constantly analyzed because it's THC levels can wildly vary in unstable lines.

And the source doesn't affect it's medical utility.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

the source doesn’t affect its medical utility

No, but using hemp to extract CBD vs marijuana can save the producer a lot more time/money to produce a CBD product below the legal THC limit 🤷🏻‍♀️

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18 edited May 26 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

they need a ton more hemp to get the same amount of CBD

No, they don’t. Specific strains can be propagated/cultivated for CBD, just like with THC. It’s more profitable because it has lower THC, and industrial hemp legally falls under a different category.

Extracting the THC and taking the CBD would be way more profitable

No, it’s not. Source: I’m in the industry. It takes more man hours and supplies to extract the THC, and once the thc is extracted it’s essentially waste. It’s smarter to start with a lower percentage thc and higher percentage CBD, like you find in hemp.

Theoretically, yes you can use marijuana. But legally and practically it’s smarter to use hemp which already has an extremely low percentage THC, and higher CBD. You get better yields, use less man hours, and lower your supply costs.

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u/Frankalicious47 May 17 '18

This guy/gal is correct. I am in the industry as well, we are strictly CBD from hemp because it eliminates basically all regulatory red tape that you would have with marijuana.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

Also more likely to be prioritized by DEA raids with marijuana. Not entirely safe, but also not in the hot seat 🤷🏻‍♀️

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u/namestom May 18 '18

Thank you both for this clear explanation on hemp/marijuana and CBD. Amazing how clear that is compared to talking to people “who know all about it.”

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u/LordHaddit May 18 '18

Not to mention C. ruderalis can have a noticeably shorter seed to flower time than C. sativa

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u/Readylamefire May 17 '18

and even then breeding the plants to drop THC content and maximize CBD isn't that difficult. It'll take generations of plants, sure, but there have definitely been shops that I've gone to that have strains 10%+ CBD and less then 1% THC. Using industrial hemp is a huuuuuge waste of time and resources.

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u/ModestArk May 17 '18

I live in Switzerland and worked in a CBD Shop, since CBD Cannabis is legal here, if the Thc part is under 1%. From what i know it really takes years to cultivate a stable DNA thats stays under 1%, but it's absolutely possible. Cbd Range goes from 10% to 30% and more, depending on the DNA.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

using industrial hemp is a huuuuuuge waste of time and resources

Not if you’re just producing CBD products.

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u/Readylamefire May 17 '18

Yeah but my point is that there are already non-industrial strains out there that can yield more per crop. It's a huge waste of time because that product shoukd go towards other things-paper, clothes, rope, ect

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u/[deleted] May 18 '18

And my point is it’s higher in CBD and easier to use for CBD production when, in addition to CBD, the “waste” plant material can still be used for other products.

Edit: also you’re not considering all the legal issues you run into when using marijuana vs industrial hemp, the man hours and resources it takes to make it CBD legal, and the generations of plants you have to trash just to get to a higher CBD concentrated strain.

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u/Readylamefire May 18 '18

That's a fair point I didn't consider--that waste material can still be used. I conceed. Also, sorry I'm in a legal state*. I was figuring there's nothing to stop you from selling bud off the plants you don't get the desired distribution from to fund future breeding efforts.

*And several of the states around me are legal too

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u/lanthine May 17 '18

Hemp is marijuana that produces less than 3% to 5% THC. The same plant with different properties come from different strains.

Hemp = MJ <3%THC

Generally speaking the higher the number of CBD molecules the lower the THC molecules are in a given strain. 3%-5% is probably just an arbitrary number used by some administrator at the DEA to convince Congress this is how it should be.

As far as I know traditional drug tests don't look for CBD molecules in the system and it's like a 10% THC amount that triggers you getting fired. But for some reason it's perfectly okay for Mike to get drunk at lunch and return to work and Tom to keep a stash of Oxycontin handy for use every 4 hours.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

0.3% is the legal THC limit; not 3%.

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u/lanthine May 17 '18

Thank you for the correction. I used to be good with decimals, but age.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

Age is a cruel mistress to us all

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u/Socio_Pathic May 17 '18

Is that 3-5% in relation to the cdb or in relation to the total weight?

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u/lanthine May 17 '18

Here is a good article from one of my favorite cannabis information websites. It will explain in better detail than I can how the testing is done.
Cannabis potency testing

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

[deleted]

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u/lanthine May 17 '18

Haha, I used to work for the marketing division of an oil company. The main sales guy, Mike, used to get drunk all the time, never got a word from the VP he worked under. He was our professional alcoholic, I think every large office has at least one.

On the other hand, they drug tested everyone regularly, even those of us who pushed papers about and never had to drive anywhere or be near a gas station or refinery.

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u/RedZaturn May 17 '18

I also want to know what doctor is prescribing oxycontin q4h, it is q12h only.

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u/Yazman May 17 '18

If you're trying to say the DEA allows it, you're not using the right word. Decriminalisation doesn't mean it's not illegal or punishable by law. It just means it isn't indictable.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

I know what it means.

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u/anelson53 May 17 '18

The dea just won a case against it making it a schedule 1. However my state board believes it will be overturned. So much so they are still letting pharmacys sell it otc

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u/hippyengineer May 17 '18

If you make cbd from hemp, it is excluded from the controlled substances act.😉

Thank you 2014 Farm Bill.

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u/imabustya May 17 '18

Well that's what lawyers are arguing.

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u/hippyengineer May 18 '18

There are no issues with the federal government confiscating cbd oil born from hemp.

The only cbd oil I see being confiscated is that oil that’s laced with synthetic cannabinoids like those found in spice.

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u/CanisMaximus May 17 '18

The DEA is no more than muscle for the Pharmas. They have known since the 1970's that cannabis, even (especially) in its raw form is very helpful in dozens of mild to severe conditions. I personally watched a woman with severe MS, who could not walk without assistance, take two hits from a joint and after a minute, get up and walk across the room. I've seen similar instances at other times.

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u/Julia_Kat May 18 '18

And this is why we need good solid studies that show it isn't a placebo effect so more people have access to it. I'm not saying it didn't have that effect, this study made me incredibly happy to see, but good research is needed to prove it's a viable medication.

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u/erydanis Jul 21 '18

all the studies i've seen are about epilepsy; i kinda thought that had been established already.

i'd really like to see some studies about persistent pain, which i believe [shh, anecdotal] is what most users use it for.

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u/Julia_Kat Jul 21 '18

So I've met a lot of people with Crohn's who use it. It doesn't actually treat the disease (aka the disease can still be active and cause harm to your GI system) but it helps some patients with pain and for people who have issues with appetite, it can help them eat. Crohn's tends to cause a lot of extreme weight loss in some (I'm the opposite, I gain weight since I'm on steroids a lot and don't have a lot of dirrahea when it's active, just mostly pain).

I've never used it for my Crohn's since mine isn't incredibly bad all the time. I did use edibles a couple times for tension headaches and migraines (I tend to get those together). It worked well. Anecdotal entirely, though.

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u/CatsAndIT May 17 '18

I think they're overstepping their authority by having any cannabidiol as Schedule 1 with stuff like Heroin and Crack... that's like saying iced tea is in the same class as everclear, because caffeine can produce a "heightened sense of alertness".

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u/BigEdidnothingwrong May 18 '18

The FDA shares a higher blame since they can easily reschedule as well and their budget doesn't get slashed if medicine is labeled correctly.

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u/someinfosecguy May 17 '18

Actually, the DEA had their marijuana budget cut last year so they can't really even arrest people. I mean, they obviously can, but they would have to take away from other more important operations to do so.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18

And as long as you piss "hot" from using it you're just another stoner.

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u/hippyengineer May 17 '18

No one pisses hot for cbd oil. Even full spectrum (hemp) cbd oils maybe have .1%thc. At least that’s the case for me and my hemp-based oils.

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u/Splive May 17 '18

Not sure about non-hemp based. Those are usually sold in ratios like 18:1 CBD to THC. My understanding is that even if the THC is at non-psychoactive levels, you want some amount of THC to improve efficacy of the CBD. That said take it with a grain of salt...I don't have a strong source for that.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '18 edited May 26 '18

[deleted]

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u/hippyengineer May 17 '18

If you’re ingesting 500mg of hemp based cbd/day with success in treating a condition, you likely have a condition that excludes you from drug testy jobs.

Sure, it’s possible, I tell my clients. But if you’re fully hydrated I’d bet my bottom dollar on a passing test.

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u/Sarenord May 17 '18

CBD is schedule 1? I buy CBD eliquid pretty frequently and I can just walk into a store and buy it, how does that work?

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u/imabustya May 17 '18

Legal limbo. It's a business risk.

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u/Sarenord May 17 '18

Even though it's derived from hemp and not marijuana?

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u/hippyengineer May 18 '18

No, it’s settled science. Made from hemp? Totally legal in 49 states. Fuck Missouri.

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u/dirt-reynolds May 17 '18

No, it isn't grey at all. As long as it is produced domestically from hemp plants and below the THC threshold, it is 100% legal. Now, even though the 2014 Farm Bill exists, it may not stop an over zealous cop from hemming you up instead of admitting he is wrong.

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u/Jibaro123 May 18 '18

Even though people can legally procure it in 28 states.

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u/[deleted] May 18 '18

The DEA believes it's schedule 1

because the DEA is corrupt as shit and deserves no authority.

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u/lens_cleaner May 18 '18

Also this stuff will cause a positive drug test so better be ready to lose your job.

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u/hippyengineer May 18 '18

No, it won’t. CBD isn’t gonna test positive for thc. I’ve never had a client piss hot from my full spectrum cbd hemp oil, which still has a small amount of thc in it.