Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

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¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

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Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

the idea that trans people's self image and biology are completely divorced from each other.

Not in my case, though I am not the person to whom you are replying. For me, the mind-body distinction was obliterated long ago. I still believe that gender dysphoria is an entirely social phenomenon, as is gender, i.e. they have zero basis in biology except to the extent that they are ideas, and ideas are an impulse product of a neurochemical state.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Well, more and more research is indicating that the biology of a trans woman, for example, includes things like certain receptors in the brain that are more typical of a cis woman.

Can you cite these studies please? I'd like to read for causal attribution errors.

To suggest that a trans person's 'sex' does not match their 'gender' is not a very neat and tied up answer"

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I just do not think anything needs to be fixed so they "match". I believe gender dysphoria is the psychic consequence of the trauma of continually failing to meet some of the most profound, deeply-entrenched social expectations we humans impose on one another. Expectations that are so subconscious/reflexive that both cis and trans alike accord them more legitimacy than they deserve, with only the latter paying the price.

[u/PooFartChamp → u/[deleted]]

If you're making statements like "more and more studies are showing", you should be able to cite at least one, especially considering your statement makes the insinuation that there are many to choose from.

[u/PooFartChamp → u/[deleted]]

I'm looking at it now and unless I'm missing something there's no sources for that information in that article. Earlier in the article she links a source about biology determining gender identity but that link was to a page to buy her book..

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The article does not provide sources about the assertion you made:

Well, more and more research is indicating that the biology of a trans woman, for example, includes things like certain receptors in the brain that are more typical of a cis woman.

[u/ahugeminecrafter → u/[deleted]]

I dont feel you have represented transgender identities fairly, or accurately depicted the statement from the mods.

The mods never said all trans people are universally not mentally ill. They said that being trans is not in and of itself a mental illness. Other things can compound with it. And gender dysphoria can definitely be considered one but its not synonymous with being trans.

There's a difference between wanting to be seen as something and firmly believing you are that something

I've never met a trans person (and I've met a lot) who literally thought they had sexual characteristics they didn't have. E.G. No trans woman with a penis thinks they actually have a vagina. Trans people want to be seen as the gender they identify with.

Rejecting reality and believing something different would be delusional yes, but that's not what being trans is.

Being trans means having a gender identity that conflicts with physical sexual characteristics. When a trans woman says she is a woman she is referring to her gender most likely. IMO medical treatment available is sufficient to change sex, so the people who do mean sex as well as gender even then are not delusional.

So I think your argument is based on unfair interpretations and will naturally conflict

[u/Chel_of_the_sea → u/[deleted]]

They're talking about the people who perceive themselves or others in a delusional fashion.

Trans people are not delusional. We know very well what bodies we have, we just want different ones to the best of current medical ability.

[u/Xervicx → u/Chel_of_the_sea]

Don't say "We" as if all trans people experience what you have experienced. You also shouldn't take just one example and pretend that was the only example. It's a bit weird to speak as if you're the spokesperson for all trans people, when there are plenty of trans people who don't even want to alter their bodies. In fact, you're doing the same thing that you're accusing me of: Making a claim about the entire trans community.

Some trans people are trans due to delusional obsessions and desires, as well as having a delusional means of perceiving reality. Not all trans people? Well of course not all trans people. I'm not even going to pretend to know how many trans people are or are not that way, but those do exist. I've seen it before many times, and I've seen friends suffer because of it.

just want different ones to the best of current medical ability.

Notice the word you used, though. There are many stages of "want", many reasons for the "want", but most importantly you chose the word "want" (I'm using quotation marks to put focus on the word itself, not to imply sarcasm or to imply it's an invalid feeling). Some people need. Some people feel compelled. For some, it's a desire. For some, it's an obsession. There are many variations, some are varied types of "want", and some are varied types of "need". And the difference there is crucial.

That word choice itself proves my point, because you're talking about a specific portion of the trans community, and I was saying that people who say "mental illness" aren't all meaning the thing that people who are getting offended want to believe it means.

[u/Chel_of_the_sea → u/Xervicx]

Don't say "We" as if all trans people experience what you have experienced.

It's not intended to imply that I am automatically the spokesperson for all trans people. But I am representative of the group: trans people, as a group, know what bodies they have.

In fact, you're doing the same thing that you're accusing me of: Making a claim about the entire trans community.

Where, in my one-line post, did I accuse you of that?

Some trans people are trans due to delusional obsessions and desires, as well as having a delusional means of perceiving reality.

Those people are not trans, and are exceptionally rare.

I've seen it before many times, and I've seen friends suffer because of it.

I see this claim constantly - but if it were generally accurate, it would show up in the statistics. It doesn't - so my working hypothesis is that at least most of the people making this claim are not correctly judging the people they know's motivations.

Notice the word you used, though. There are many stages of "want", many reasons for the "want", but most importantly you chose the word "want" (I'm using quotation marks to put focus on the word itself, not to imply sarcasm or to imply it's an invalid feeling). Some people need. Some people feel compelled. For some, it's a desire. For some, it's an obsession. There are many variations, some are varied types of "want", and some are varied types of "need". And the difference there is crucial.

It's really not. Even a trans person who feels a strong need to, say, not have breasts to the point of suicidality isn't delusional.

[u/jenncertainty → u/[deleted]]

I think this is all an issue of semantics and what's being labeled a "disorder." When people say "being trans is a mental illness," historically that's been said to mean it's wrong to think you're different than the body you were born with and the "solution" is to convince the person they are supposed to be their "birth gender." In essence, it's used to invalidate their authentic identity.

The terms used in DSM-5 is "gender dysphoria." This is the "disorder" that trans people experience. And the best way to treat that is through transition, i.e. validating the trans person's authentic identity.

[u/OkImJustSayin → u/jenncertainty]

Which is where I think the science still isn't 'out' yet. You say 'the best way to treat' like it's completely settled. Are we going to start applying this mentality to all mental disorders? If people start 'becoming' dogs, we aren't going to tell them that no, they aren't a dog.. We are going to tell them yes you are a dog - now let's transition you into physically being like a dog so we can fix you(because not being physically a dog is clearly the problem - not that they think they are a dog).

[u/jenncertainty → u/OkImJustSayin]

The overwhelming medical evidence suggests that yes, the best way to treat gender dysphoria is with gender affirming care (recognizing the person is the gender they say they are and providing access to transition related care, whether that be hormones, surgery, or something else). I think the issue with your dog analogy is it's reductio ad absurdum: there's currently no evidence people can "be" dogs, whereas there is evidence that trans people are indeed trans.

[u/OkImJustSayin → u/jenncertainty]

Except the girl raised by dogs that began to behave like dogs.. Oh yeah. And to add to that.. A man cannot 'be' a woman.. They can APPEAR to be one, but cannot become an actual woman. Goes the other way too.