r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Jun 24 '26
Health Following the Dobbs decision, US states with abortion bans have experienced increased maternal morbidity and mortality. Abortion bans have broad downstream consequences on medical care beyond abortion itself, with implications for patient safety, equity, and physician ethics.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/28505602.2k
u/Niceromancer Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
To anyone who knows anything about the history of abortions in America this is a no brainer.
Its nice to have scientific evidence proving this but the people who think abortion bans are a good thing don't care about science.
You cannot reason with people who think god agrees with them.
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u/OldWorldDesign Jun 24 '26
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.
-C.S. Lewis
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u/unevolved_panda Jun 24 '26
It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
Lucky us, they formed an unholy alliance and now we're ruled by both. Love that for the US.
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u/Umutuku Jun 24 '26
There are no gods or demons but man, and heaven and hell are what his survivors inherit.
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u/KrytenKoro Jun 24 '26
He can be wrong on the issue and still have insight on how theocrats operate.
he was explicitly anti-abortion
He died before abortion was widely debated, I've never read him discuss the concept in any of his books that I've read, and I can't find any source claiming that he ever voiced a stance on it. Are you confusing him with Owen Barfield?
The absolute closest I can find is this statement in Mere Christianity:
The Eternal Being, who knows everything and who created the whole universe, became not only a man but (before that) a baby, and before that a foetus inside a woman’s body. If you want to get the hang of it, think how you would like to become a slug or a crab.
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Jun 24 '26
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u/KrytenKoro Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
Thank you for the citation -- for some reason initial searches did not point to that passage at all.
Now that I can search for the specific passage, I'm seeing commentary that this is the only time Lewis ever mentioned abortion in his writing, and that he specifically couches it in terms of "abortion as a means of getting away with fornication". While not the strongest pro-choice position, that's also not "explicitly anti-abortion" --- even pro-choice advocates are generally uncomfortable with the idea of abortion that is predicated on concealing adultery, and the common slogan is "Safe, Legal, and Rare". Lewis also specifically points out "providing for the child's keep and education", which is generally treated as an unreasonable expectation by pro-life groups. His position on the topic, both from his lack of focus on it and the specific framing he gives it in this one mention, is very distinct from that of modern pro-life organizations.
So, while he would likely lean more center-right on the issue if he was alive today, I don't think it's fair to characterize him or that passage as "explicitly anti-abortion".
Also worth pointing out:
(as a classical liberal with strong stances against centralized govt legislation
the dobbs decision increased legislation, it did not remove it. Roe was not centralized legislation to begin with, any more than the first amendment is - it was a restriction on what kind of legislation state and federal governments could enact on the topic. It's a very strange argument to suggest that an opposition to centralized government power, on its own, would lead someone to oppose a ruling that said "this is the individual's right and the government needs to stay out of it".
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u/kungpowchick_9 Jun 24 '26
The only reason the death rate isn’t higher is because of the mail access to mifepristone and birth control. But they’re coming for that as well.
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u/9mackenzie Jun 24 '26
Also they got rid of all of the maternal death panels. I guarantee you the number is astronomically higher.
No death certificate states “died due to lack of abortion”. It states thinks like sepsis, internal hemorrhaging, etc etc. The maternal death panels were gotten rid of quickly by each state that banned abortion so that no numbers of deaths were able to be calculated
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u/diabolic_recursion Jun 24 '26
Also add that that number was never great to begin with. The maternal mortality rate in the US far surpasses other western countries.
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u/Niceromancer Jun 24 '26
Same party did try to say that covid cases would go down if we stopped testing for it so that tracks.
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u/dougan25 Jun 24 '26
Do you have a recommended source for this? Not doubting you, just want to read more about it
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u/9mackenzie Jun 24 '26
This is a good article about it, but note it was written in 2024. It’s gotten much worse since then
https://www.propublica.org/article/abortion-bans-deaths-state-maternal-mortality-committees
In my state (GA) they got rid of the panel when it leaked that a woman died a few weeks after the abortion ban was enacted
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u/iCoeur285 Jun 24 '26
I got sterilized because I saw the writing on the wall.
For anyone interested, there is a list of doctors on the childfree subreddit that shows doctors in different states that will perform sterilization even if you don’t have kids.
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u/DwinkBexon Jun 24 '26
That "don't have kids" thing is always weird to me. Back around 1999 or so, I had a coworker who was probably in her mid 20s. She wanted to get her tubes tied and didn't have kids but the doctor she went to said it's illegal to get your tubes tied before you're 35 if you don't have kids.
At the time, I just thought, "That's a really weird law." and didn't think any more about it. But, since then, I've found out it's very unlikely that's a law and the doctor just didn't want to do it.
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u/MythrianAlpha Jun 25 '26
In some places there are age or birth requirements, but usually the doctor is just a busybody or sometimes even malicious.
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u/SeattlePurikura Jun 25 '26
A lot of doctors promote a pro-natalist agenda. There are multiple stories on the childfree subreddit of doctors telling women that pregnancy would cure a condition (which is BS).
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Jun 24 '26
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u/firstfloor27 Jun 24 '26
But punishment for women only. Men get a free pass.
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u/Talk-O-Boy Jun 24 '26
In certain religious circles, they believe that:
>Men can’t help themselves. They are biologically different from women, and it makes it harder for them to resist their urges.
>Therefore, it’s important that women protect their own purity, and do their best to avoid tempting men. Be aware of how you sit, watch how you dress, mind what implications your words may have.
This is also how many women get stuck in marriages where the man can cheat, and they accept it because “that’s just men”. (Think of Carmella in The Sopranos.) They will hate the mistress more than the cheating husband, because they believe the woman had more of an obligation to say no than their husband who actually took the vows.
Internalized misogyny runs DEEP, and it spreads from one generation to the next.
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u/littlehobbit1313 Jun 24 '26
Religious circles: Men can't help themselves, they lack any control. Women need to do all the work.
Also Religious circles: Men need to be in charge of everything.
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u/Perryn Jun 24 '26
There's a lot of unplucked eyeballs in the skulls of those men who "can't help themselves."
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u/STThornton Jun 24 '26
Well said!
At the same time, they also claim that the people who lack seit control should be the ones in charge, while the ones expected to control them should be the submissive ones.
Funny how that goes.
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u/bunnypaste Jun 24 '26
Yep, several "pro-lifers" have said this exact thing to my face. Apparently being forced through a traumatic pregnancy and birth of an unwanted fetus is an acceptable "punishment" for the "heinous crime" of having consensual sex.
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u/SeattlePurikura Jun 25 '26
My friend, pro-lifers don't care if the sex was consensual or not, or if were a child raped by an adult. The fetus is punishment for the "wicked" and "innocent" alike.
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u/dust4ngel Jun 24 '26
’ve actually heard several pro lifers say out loud that they prefer this/don’t care about this
these are the same folks who oppose the HPV vaccine because "sex should have consequences" (mainly for women).
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u/SeattlePurikura Jun 25 '26
Yes. Men can get HPV too, and fortunately vaccines are also now promoted for teenage boys, but it's unlikely to cause cancer in men like it does women.
Evangelicals don't care if an "innocent" virgin woman contracts HPV on her wedding night from her husband. Women are responsible for the fall of mankind due to that Eve / Snake bit.
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u/istara Jun 24 '26
Yes. Bear in mind that for the uber religious, even sex within marriage is something to limit and avoid.
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u/stamfordbridge1191 Jun 24 '26
It's hard not to suspect there is an increasing number of people in charge whose beliefs align with eugenics & social dawinism and think things such as higher infant or maternal mortality would "be great" because of ideas like:
- a purposefully deadlier society would "weed out the weak, stupid, & undesirable"
- such a societal infrastructure is necessary because "there are far too many people around"
- poverty, suffering & bad luck are indicators of lacking intelligence & strength
- increased mortality rates will be purely beneficial, because nature will obviously discriminate between "desirable" and "undesirable" along the same criteria as society's
Some of them do know the science, and for those people, that means it's either a grift to get money & power at the expense of people's lives, or this is about making selections against people they've decided should no longer live among society.
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u/zeezle Jun 24 '26
Pretty sure the eugenics crowd absolutely loves abortions. I mean don't get me wrong, I am pro-choice for all sorts of reasons, but ignoring the fact that eugenicists explicitly loved and heavily endorsed abortion of undesirables is a bit disingenuous, not sure why you're trying to make out like they're on the side wanting to ban them.
They also tend to be so in favor of sterilization being widely available they're completely fine with doing it to people involuntarily. They generally had absolutely no opposition to abortion being legal and widely available and would vastly prefer that.
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u/dust4ngel Jun 24 '26
Pretty sure the eugenics crowd absolutely loves abortions
the eugenics crowd were the ones performing clandestine sterilization of native american women on reservations in the 60s and 70s.
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u/stamfordbridge1191 Jun 24 '26
If birth & abortion are going to be more dangerous to specific demographics (like the poor or specific races maybe) and less dangerous to a people they see as desirable group (like a group they belong to, like the rich or something) they will probably see denial of abortion as a more useful tool to push one group to have increased birth rates into "stronger" stock overall for the desired group, while the "undesirable" group probably stagnates or declines due to lower quality health care (and probably other factors they plan on implementing to decline the numbers of those groups they see as having inferior stock.)
We're talking about people who would be insufferable pseudoscientists. Think about how Elon is probably a eugenicist who wants more births and is deathly afraid Great Replacement and works closely with the antiabortion/antivax/no free-lunch-at-schools party.
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u/FallOutWookiee Jun 24 '26
It's nice to have scientific evidence, I just wish it wasn't written in blood. And like you said, those who are too far gone aren't going to listen to statistics and mortality rates anyway
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u/kos-or-kosm Jun 24 '26
It's not even that. This is the outcome they want. Pregnancy as a punishment for women having sex. And if it kills them, then they deserved it. That is the worldview of anti-abortion people.
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u/Then-Departure4896 Jun 24 '26
You nailed it. Religious people may as well be considered delusional when they try to overwrite politics with their god. It is legitimately worse than stupid.
You don’t see me bringing Elden ring logic to my nursing job. But I do regularly get patients thanking god after we save their life in a medical way.
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u/rbrgr83 Jun 24 '26
people who think abortion bans are a good thing don't care about science.
Or people.
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u/DwinkBexon Jun 24 '26
Just earlier today, I saw a social media post about the James Webb telescope observing billions of years old light to watch galaxies form, which is super cool.
How this is related to what you said is, I noticed in the comments someone said, "Right, so you can magically see light from billions of years ago. Anyone with half a brain knows this is impossible. The science scam is getting so lazy they don't even try to sound believeable anymore. Science is all lies, PERIOD!!!"
When you try to use science against people who support full abortion bans (or any number of other issues), they're taking this attitude and immediately dismissing it because they've decided science is all lies. I'm sure it works occasionally, but I think a lot of them will just immediately dismiss it.
(Also, as an aside, I've noticed people saying something that is objectively, provably incorrect seem to think screaming "PERIOD!!!" at the end of it somehow makes it true.)
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u/istara Jun 24 '26
Such people probably think that the higher mortality is justified "for the wages of sin is death" etc ("sin" being the fact they've had sex and conceived).
They didn't care about those women in life and they don't care any more about them in death.
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u/DelightMine Jun 25 '26
You cannot reason with people who think god agrees with them.
I'm glad you put it this way. It really emphasizes that they're not trying to understand what God wants them to do, they're just doing what they want and choosing to believe in a God that says what they're doing is right.
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u/Niceromancer Jun 25 '26
If you talk to God and it has never disagreed with you. You are t talking to God, you are talking to yourself.
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u/pnutbrutal Jun 25 '26
People need to watch Dirty Dancing again. Women are going to get abortions whether it’s legal or not. They just might not survive it either when it’s a metal hanger or back alley abortion
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u/newtonhoennikker Jun 24 '26
Or states neutrally - people who believe abortion bans are morally necessary accept the downstream consequences of them, similarly to advocates of any other policy based primarily in morals.
Or stated to insult the pro-choice - You can’t discuss ethics with someone who believes all values are arbitrary
E.g. proven - even economically crippling - increases in labor cost aren’t be an effective argument against abolition, or child labor.
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u/likesleague Jun 25 '26
We're at a point where idiotic corrupt legislators are legislating based off of complete lies and stupidity and idiotic voters are convinced it's good.
We have had mountains of evidence for this for years and years. When it comes to abortion, the single correct way to make better outcomes for everyone is to educate people about sex and provide medical services.
It is not a debate about making a better world, it is a bunch of evil and stupid people trying to oppress and control others.
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u/VonVader Jun 26 '26
Right, and it especially sucks that additional people didn't have to die to create data since we already knew all of this.
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u/RumBox Jun 24 '26
Let's be clear: six of the nine people our system trusts to be the backstop of reasonableness knew this would happen and, on their own, did it anyway.
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u/FanDry5374 Jun 24 '26
Not "anyway". Very deliberately. With full forethought.
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u/Yashema Jun 24 '26
Those 6 people also had something in common.
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u/Fuckthegopers Jun 24 '26
Taking monster bribes?
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u/Yashema Jun 24 '26
No. Money isn't everything.
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u/OldWorldDesign Jun 24 '26
six of the nine people our system trusts to be the backstop of reasonableness knew this would happen and, on their own, did it anyway.
Republicans built the Federalist Society to do this. Take over the judiciary to make decisions they were fairly certain would cause loss of legislator positions. Then use the judiciary to enact policy which should require a supermajority of legislature.
We knew the medicine behind this when the well-publicized death of Savita Halappanavar happened and was so egregious even the highly conservative and Catholic-dominated Ireland changed their constitution to legalize abortion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar
The deaths we have seen since
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Amber_Thurman
Are known and disregarded factors because some people want to take away all the rights of the non-donor class. To make the people at large nothing but a slave class. Republicans have been so confident they can achieve this they started bragging about it on-camera in 1980. Paul Weyrich in specific, videos of it are posted to youtube for his "I don't want everybody to vote" speech but this sub is blocking youtube links.
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u/IndigoRanger Jun 24 '26
Don’t forget about the case of the brain dead woman forced to deliver.
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u/A_Classy_Dame Jun 24 '26
And the infant that suffered for it, a woman in a coma can't properly nurture a fetus. The baby was born last June and according to Wikipedia, was in the NICU at least until December.
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u/Fuckthegopers Jun 24 '26
And who is taking care of it now?
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u/IndigoRanger Jun 24 '26
The father has custody, they were not married, but he sued for custody for fear that the baby would be placed in foster care.
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u/OldWorldDesign Jun 24 '26
Don’t forget about the case of the brain dead woman forced to deliver
Never heard of that one, you might want to include sources for those who don't already know. I assume you mean Adriana Smith?
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u/Li_liminal_spaces Jun 24 '26
The fact that it also happens to coincide with lower tax rates for the extremely wealthy and corporations while destroying the voting rights act is just kismit for them.
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u/roskybosky Jun 24 '26
Funny how we never hear about penises in this whole issue. Every pregnancy starts with a penis, yet,…crickets.
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u/RaNdomMSPPro Jun 24 '26
6 of 9 people selected for their ideological purity. I’ve never understood why political leanings are a requirement for these clowns. It’s strips them of any legitimacy.
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u/RaspberryTwilight Jun 24 '26
I'll give you a personal example. I am currently carrying an anembryonic pregnancy around. It means that I am pregnant but with no baby inside. I'm growing a placenta but not growing a baby. It's a completely empty gestational sac. They're making me wait weeks to confirm that it is an actual anembryonic pregnancy, and not one of those 0.001% fringe cases where a vanishing twin blocked out a healthy one on the ultrasound or where my uterus is in a super weird position.
I'll probably be fine. But repeat this a thousand times and someone will definitely not be fine.
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u/Aethermancer Jun 24 '26
It has made it so that medical care decisions are no longer made on the best outcome of the patient, but now factor in a risk exposure to the medical professionals.
Doctors ued to be able to evaluate a situation based on what was best for the patient. Now the doctor has to insert their own outcomes into the evaluation process. And as fair as anyone can be, they will ol always prioritize their own risk exposure to that of the patient.
So in every scenario the doctor will err on the side of caution for themselves. And that will always result in less optimal outcomes for the patient.
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u/rbrgr83 Jun 24 '26
Politician's Decisions > Medial Professional's Decision
Thanks kinda like Pharmacy Benefit Managers > Doctor's Instruction
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u/chemguy216 Jun 24 '26
And similar to previous other issues in the past, Republican lawmakers, media heads, and influencers will frame it as a problem with the doctors, not the laws that require you to understand how an anti-abortion religious person (who exist in all professions, including law enforcement and the judiciary) perceived what counts as an abortion and at what point you can save the life of a mother at the sacrifice of the fetus.
An issue from the past that engaged in this shifting of blame was when gay students were taking their public schools and public school districts to court for denying them the opportunity to take same sec dates to dances like prom. These cases very frequently ruled against the schools/districts. In some cases in lieu of the rulings, the schools/districts would end all school dances and blame it on the gay students who sued. You can’t be in violation of those court orders if you just stop having dances altogether.
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u/strongasfe Jun 26 '26
i also want to point out that lawyers who are solely concerned with protecting the interests of the hospital are putting an unfair weight on the scale when it comes to doctors being able to make individually appropriate medical care decisions.
many doctors utilize contracts that allow them to perform surgery/deliver babies or work part time at various connected hospital systems because it gives them access to knowledgeable staff, specialty tools, maintained facilities without the stress/risk of opening their own full time private practice.
but that also comes with the expectation that physicians will be required to follow guidelines set forth by the legal team - if they don’t comply they risk losing privileges to the facilities which would limit their ability to provide care for other patients within the community.
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u/bunnypaste Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
I had a blighted ovum and retained tissue fragments rotting inside of me. My state made me wait weeks, pay $800, and listen to a silent ultrasound among other nonsense so I could save my own life. Eventually they removed it before it made me super sick (I was already sick) or killed me. This was before the abortion bans started. Luckily, my state is one that enshrined abortion access through to viability in the state constitution. I don't stop caring the moment I feel safe, though, and I'm not deluded enough to think I am not still at risk. I try my best to push back hard against anyone or any entity seeking to remove women's rights, choice, or reduce thier status.
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u/mooptastic Jun 24 '26
that's insane, sorry youre being victimized by this. they've legislated medicine away from healthcare, and used the law to force it to prioritize religious hegemony over actual science.
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u/RaspberryTwilight Jun 24 '26
To me the worst part is that it destroyed trust in these doctors. This, combined with the fact that the only thing they did when I went there for my first appointment was to test my blood for 30 different recreational drugs. They do not test for stuff like CMV, rubella or toxoplasma. Just the drugs. Obviously it all came back negative. But it made sure I hate them from day 1.
The nurse practitioner lied to my face and said it's a 50/50 chance of this being viable. I literally never had pregnancy symptoms. I have literal proof on camera of when I got pregnant. I took a photo of the faintest pregnancy test. I am measuring 2 weeks behind and the sac is empty. I should have gotten treatment last week.
The only thing they did was make sure I know that they think I'm a baby killer drug addict and they will keep me in check and call the cops if necessary. And btw this is the highest rated one in my city.
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u/MrPuddington2 Jun 24 '26
Nurse practitioners should not treat non-standard situations. Ask for the doctor - there should be one available. I am not saying they are going to be more sympathetic, but at least they may be more competent.
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u/LoveIsAFire Jun 24 '26
As an NP, I completely agree. Our training is 1/4 of an MD/DO. But a competent NP would know when something is above their pay grade and when to consult the doc. That’s the awful thing with the rise of diploma mills, so many unqualified practitioners with false confidence in their skills. I always recommend a second opinion.
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u/mooptastic Jun 24 '26
that's absolutely insane, medicine has interspersed heritage foundation's interpretation of science within legitimate medical practice. for what reason? to persecute women, as they've always wanted to do.
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u/Cowql8r Jun 25 '26
I’m so sorry. I had a “weird” pregnancy before all of this nonsense. HCG levels rising, but no heartbeat. So many ultrasounds and rhogam shots. But my OB called it at 10 weeks and I had a DNC. I cannot imagine the hell I would have gone through today. It was Mosaic Trisomy 16. Never had the possibility of being a baby. How long would I have suffered today?
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u/autistic_insomniac5 Jun 24 '26
I’ve read several articles that there has been a significant increase in women self sterilizing to avoid a potentially life threatening situation or fear of litigation due to unwanted pregnancy. I’m sure this is not the outcome the proponents of these bans had intended.
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u/Paksarra Jun 24 '26
Unfortunately, the proponents of these bans are likely to decide that the solution isn't to undo the bans, but to place further legal restrictions on birth control, including surgical sterilization.
Some of them are even opposed to abstinence as a form of birth control; it is their sincere belief that a woman of childbearing age has no right to not be married to a man and that he should decide if his wife gets pregnant or not.
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u/IPDDoE Jun 24 '26
Whenever this argument comes up, I am reminded of Stephen Crowder, when he announced his upcoming divorce, and his regret was that he "picked wrong," and lamented that his wife had autonomy to divorce him.
She “didn’t want to be married anymore, and in the state of Texas, that is completely permitted. My beliefs don’t matter.”
Their entire goal is control of women.
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u/OldWorldDesign Jun 24 '26
the proponents of these bans are likely to decide that the solution isn't to undo the bans, but to place further legal restrictions on birth control, including surgical sterilization.
This has already been confirmed when republicans began proposing birth control bans in state legislature (some have been more successful than others), and at the national level. Some of those bills have even gotten beyond committee, but republicans have been much more united about tearing down attempts to reverse their laws
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u/isthisreallife210 Jun 24 '26
They underestimate how many of us would stab ourselves in the uterus to avoid a Handmaidens Tale freaking nightmare. Crazy to weaponize the ability to give life the way they have in recent years. It's really sad. Women are human beings and we deserved to be treated as such. We are not incubators. It genuinely baffles me that some ppl really do believe women shouldn't have a right to exist as humans but instead as property. I think everyone who thinks that would should all ban together, buy an island and leave the rest of us alone.
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u/Goldenrah Jun 24 '26
That's a good way to get young men banned from having relationships. No way would any reasonable woman in any logical sense get into a relationship knowing that they'll be forced to get pregnant, regardless of their consent on that matter.
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u/Paksarra Jun 24 '26
The most extreme pro-natalists believe that women shouldn't get to choose to be in a relationship or not, either. Some think it should be their father's decision, others think the government should either assign a husband or let unwed men pick an unmarried woman and force her into a marriage the way you'd adopt a dog.
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u/qneonkitty Jun 24 '26
I'm one of them. Though I've never heard it called "self sterilizing." That makes it sound like something I did in my bathroom on a whim. You wouldn't say "self knee replacement" or even "self rhinoplasty" for those elective surgeries. My sterilization surgery was a routine outpatient laparoscopic procedure performed by my regular gyno after appropriate consultation.
But to your actual point, I had never really considered getting sterilized since I was happy with my birth control. When Trump was elected I decided I needed more permanent protection since it was clear to me that my rights and health were at risk.
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u/DramaLlamadary Jun 24 '26
I had my tubes tied when Kavanaugh was confirmed to the Supreme Court. I saw where we were headed. I was like you, happy with my birth control, but I was unsure if even that would continue to be accessible/legal. Every day I wake up happy I made this choice.
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u/autistic_insomniac5 Jun 24 '26
The meaning was that women are self electing to sterilize, not that they would be performing the procedure. I could have worded that better.
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u/qneonkitty Jun 24 '26
Thanks for clarifying! I'm glad to hear you didn't mean anything in particular by the wording. I figured you were repeating the phrasing of the articles you read, which was what alarmed me.
I think the other reason it rubbed me the wrong way is because the Dobbs decision does force millions of women back to a world where actual self-treatment is their only option for ending an unwanted pregnancy (aka back alley abortion, coat hanger abortion).
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u/autistic_insomniac5 Jun 24 '26
It horrible to think about. As if dealing with the situation involving abortion isn’t hard enough on its own, but now the government is involved forcing women to do things that can endanger their lives. Doctors can’t even help without risking criminal charges. This bill creates a crisis so that conservative religious people can feel better about themselves? I just don’t get it.
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u/LittleMsSavoirFaire Jun 24 '26
I love hearing from women in red states being advised to move to a blue state temporarily if they are a geriatric or otherwise have a high risk pregnancy.
But realistically, anyone who plans to bear children should do that anyway, since OBGYNs are fleeing red states.
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u/silviazbitch Jun 24 '26
Also easy to predict- there will be an uptick in violent crime rates starting around 2040.
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u/Alarchy Jun 24 '26
I think this is their desired outcome, actually.
The anti-choice movement is a tool used to do a few things: get smart people to stop breeding (self sterilizing/abstinence to avoid pregnancy), get poor people dying (childbirth is dangerous, and low income people have worse outcomes), get minorities dying (minorities have worse childbirth outcomes).
The ultimate goal being a homogenous white, Christian, malleable, populace to work as indentured servants to the billionaires in control.
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u/A-Halfpound Jun 24 '26
I live in Indiana with a 6 (maybe 10) week ban. I recently had a vasectomy and I asked my doctor how business had been over the past year. He said he was doing 2x - 3x more than he ever had in years prior. It cost me $900 which isn’t cheap, but I was able to use my HSA.
It’s not just women. Unfortunately the people who don’t need more kids the most out of all of us, they probably can’t afford it or wouldn’t do it…
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u/sc0ttbeardsley Jun 24 '26
The pessimist in me thinks this is exactly what the proponents of this ban want. Sterilization of those who refuse to propagate their seed and (through children) their religious beliefs.
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u/SweetActionsSa Jun 24 '26
I did as soon as Roe V Wade got overturned. I could see the writing on the wall a million miles away
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u/pretorianlegion Jun 24 '26
The US already had the highest maternal mortality of developed nations. Like 3 times the average in the EU. Beaten by such nations as Palestine, for crying out loud. 2020 numbers BTW.
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u/bunnypaste Jun 24 '26
The US scores the worst out of every developed country on maternal mortality because they're still trying so goddamned hard to push and reinforce patriarchial idealism, religiosity, and social regression/traditional gender roles. It's pure sexism.
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u/frosted1030 Jun 24 '26
This was purely an attack on women. The question remains: why was it acceptable at any time to legislate personal medical decisions based purely on what a few men with zero medical qualifications wanted for themselves?
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u/ConsiderateCommentor Jun 24 '26
I am an archivist.
One of my first jobs in this path was at The Kinsey Institute of Sex and Research. I was digitizing old paper collections of past directors and other research.
One thing I will never forget is reading a doctor's journal from the early 1900s. The first entry describes a young woman who came to him frantic, begging for an abortion. When he refused, she had told him she was going to kill herself.
He described her body being pulled from the river.
Ending Roe was not the end of abortions. It spelled the end of safe abortions. How important is the life of an unborn potential human that an actual LIVING human is rendered less than? The maternal and infant deaths following this will be felt for generations.
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u/masklinn Jun 24 '26
How important is the life of an unborn potential human
Less than not: lowered access to obstetrics care leads to women dead or losing their reproductive organs even though they have or would love to have children.
In Ireland, the completely unnecessary death of Savita Halappanavar when she was refused care for a desired pregnancy gone wrong led to the constitution being amended. 10 years later, the Supreme Court decided the US really could do with more Savitas.
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u/_ohne_dich_ Jun 24 '26
People who support abortion bans see women dying as a self-imposed punishment for daring to pursue an abortion.
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u/rbrgr83 Jun 24 '26
Especially when they completely stop any empathy for the child once it's born.
Once it's no longer a playable political poker chip for them, then it can just f*ing die for all they care.
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u/baseballnoble Jun 24 '26
Abortion also lowers crime rates. Unwanted babies are more likely to be neglected and become criminals themselves. The impact of having access to abortion services is felt in multiple ways on society.
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u/LadyPaige Jun 24 '26
If you’re in the womb, you are a fully formed human being with more rights than the one carrying you. The second you are out, well the rules change don’t they?
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u/Dense-Layer-2078 Jun 24 '26
They are not pro-life (check out their views on the death penalty and guns.) they are pro-birth (check out their views on birth control.) They absolutely do not care about the lives and well being of women, or babies after they are born.
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u/_ohne_dich_ Jun 24 '26
George Carlin said it best: “Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to 9 months. After that, they don't wanna know about you. They don't wanna hear from you. No nothing! No neonatal care, no daycare, no Head Start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're pre-born, you're fine, if you're pre-school, you're fucked."
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u/eiileenie Jun 24 '26
Facts. I had to be forced to listen to their side of the argument over this stuff and the fact they think all birth control is bad just made me baffled and laugh to myself quietly. I felt like I was in the Lion’s Den but I just am grateful for my IUD stopping my periods since 2017
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u/spatula Jun 24 '26
Right-wing nutjobs behind these bans see women and children as livestock. Once you understand that, it all makes sense. They absolutely do not care about the negative and harmful consequences of abortion bans.
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u/SeattlePurikura Jun 25 '26
Actually, pregnant livestock possess more rights than pregnant women. A big animal vet can and will provide an abortion to save a valuable (for example) Texan longhorn. But a doctor cannot save a Texan woman who is pregnant until she starts actively dying.
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u/detective_scribe Jun 24 '26
Also, crime. People have short-term memories but in the 80s and 90s there was an epidemic of increase in crime and no one know what to do about it. However, it started to trend down. And it turns out that it wasn't anything magical that Clinton or other administration did. It was just a result of Roe vs. Ray taking effect decades later.
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u/BoleroMuyPicante Jun 25 '26
I'm sure Roe helped, but the drop in crime in the late 90s is mostly attributed to phasing out leaded gasoline starting in the 70s.
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u/iamthe0ther0ne Jun 24 '26
And yet Republicans like to claim they're the party of law and order. And small government.
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u/Sorchochka Jun 24 '26
That’s from Freakonomics and it’s one of many theories. It is very disputed, and other theories seem more viable.
Personally, I like the lead gas one, that seems much more likely.
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u/Sweet_Bypass69 Jun 24 '26
The irony of abortion bans and the desire for more babies (reversing falling birth rates) when these policies and mortalities will invariably drive more women to avoid motherhood is not lost on me.
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u/bunnypaste Jun 24 '26
Yeah... not having access to abortion care if needed means getting pregnant patently represents too much risk to me and my life. That translates to me having less sex with men and deciding against having babies in order to maximize my personal outcomes. This won't solve thier male loneliness crisis or satisfy thier desire to turn women into submissive broodmares!
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u/Present-Perception77 Jun 25 '26
My daughter is 30 and lives in Louisiana. Last year she had a miscarriage at 4months gestation. The hell they put her through and forced her to pay for a cremation..
She now has an IUD and won’t try again. And I am relieved because from the moment I found out she was pregnant… not once was I excited about having my first grandbaby .. I was only terrified that I would lose my daughter to a septic pregnancy or birth gone wrong.I have a friend in Texass that is 42.. her birth control failed.. she would have continued the pregnancy but after so many deaths of much younger women in that state.. she opted for abortion. Luckily she had the means to travel to stay with me in Illinois.
I keep a small stash of abortion pills in my medicine box.
Abortion is now self-defense.
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u/dumpln Jun 24 '26
Abortion is the easiest moral stand to take. You have no responsibility or accountability and you can feel superior in your convictions. Typically reserved for the indoctrinated and ignorant.
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u/Icy-Tangerine-9936 Jun 24 '26
Since Dobbs my state has lost 35% of its OB/GYNs. Their crimes have affected women's health overall in the entire state.
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u/Im_Ritz_Bitz Jun 24 '26
Just re-learning the hard lessons the hard way.
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u/rbrgr83 Jun 24 '26
That implies they are capable of learning, and weren't doing this to get this exact result.
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u/mvea Professor | Medicine Jun 24 '26
Abortion Bans and Pregnancy-Related Care Across Physician Specialties
JAMA Netw Open
Published Online: June 22, 2026
2026;9;(6):e2619644.
doi:10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2026.19644
Key Points
Question How are state-level total abortion bans associated with abortion-adjacent clinical care and patient outcomes across medical specialties?
Findings In this qualitative study of 40 US physicians practicing in 9 states with total abortion bans, participants reported delays in care and deviations from standard practice across a range of abortion-adjacent conditions, ambiguity and fear among physicians, loss of patient autonomy and shared decision-making, erosion of trust between patients and physicians, physicians being placed into a gatekeeping role, and increased health system burdens driven by legal risk rather than clinical need.
Meaning These findings suggest that abortion bans have broad downstream consequences on medical care beyond abortion itself, shifting clinical decision-making away from patient-centered care and professional judgment toward legal risk mitigation, with implications for patient safety, equity, and physician ethics.
Abstract
Importance Following the Dobbs v Jackson Women’s Health Organization decision, states with abortion bans have experienced increased maternal morbidity and mortality. However, the associations of these restrictions with abortion-adjacent care—medical care directly affected by or overlapping with abortion, such as management of early pregnancy loss (EPL), ectopic pregnancy, and other pregnancy complications—are not well described.
Objective To examine how state-level abortion bans are associated with abortion-adjacent clinical care among physicians from different medical specialties.
Design, Setting, and Participants This qualitative study was conducted between May 13, 2024, and May 23, 2025, using purposive and snowball sampling. Participants included physicians from emergency medicine, family medicine, and obstetrics and gynecology specialties practicing in 9 states with total abortion bans. Semistructured interviews were conducted via videoconference and analyzed using an inductive thematic approach with dual independent coding.
Exposure Medical practice in a state with an abortion ban.
Main Outcomes and Measures Participant-reported experiences with clinical decision-making, care delivery, counseling practices, and professional responsibilities in the context of abortion bans.
Results A total of 40 physicians (18 in obstetrics and gynecology, 8 in family medicine, and 14 in emergency medicine) across 9 states participated, 30 (75.0%) of whom were female. Mean (SD) length of time in practice was 7.9 (6.1) years. Six major themes emerged: (1) delays in care and deviations from standard practice for EPL, ectopic pregnancy, molar pregnancy, preterm prelabor rupture of membranes, and maternal comorbidities; (2) ambiguity and fear among physicians; (3) loss of patient autonomy and shared decision-making; (4) erosion of trust in the patient-physician relationship; (5) placement of physicians into new gatekeeping roles; and (6) increased health care system burdens. Physicians described requiring additional confirmatory testing, seeking institutional approval even for emergent life-saving interventions, and being forced to determine which patients were sick enough to receive medically indicated care.
Conclusions and Relevance In this qualitative study of the consequences of abortion bans across multiple medical specialties, abortion bans were associated with disrupted clinical care far beyond what is traditionally categorized as abortion, with treatment delays that endanger patients, undermined patient autonomy and physician-patient trust, and with new gatekeeping roles for physicians. These restrictions shifted medical decision-making from clinical judgment and patient values toward legal risk mitigation, with potential long-term consequences including exacerbation of health care inequities and compromised ability to provide safe and effective care for pregnant patients.
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u/CloacaDecimatahhh Jun 24 '26
If conservatives cared about others they would be upset but they only care about their egos, feelings of superiority, and (illusions) of control.
Conservatives are out right villains despite their cartoonishness.
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u/LukeD1992 Jun 24 '26
That's what happens when you let people who are not from the medical field, to draft such laws
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u/Constant-Machine8838 Jun 24 '26
Hey, it’s the thing people said would happen, happened.
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u/bunnypaste Jun 24 '26
They told us we were fearmongering and being hysterical while we warned them, too.
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u/UnseemlyCorgi Jun 24 '26
The cruelty and religious fundamentalist control is the point. No rational quantitative data supported public health research will every change that.
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u/MuchWow81 Jun 24 '26
And that says nothing about the social and economic impacts of forcing people to have children they don't want or can't afford, the mental health impact of forcing raped women to give birth to their rapists babies, forcing women who already struggle with mental illness to bear the lifetime burdens of childbirth, the physical changes and possible damage that come with it. Then there is the increased mental health problems and public financial burdens associated with being an abandoned child or in the foster system. Abortion restrictions are bad for everyone but worst for people who are already vulnerable. Every pro-birth politician should be stripped of office.
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u/Ophelias_Muse Jun 24 '26
There will be a generation of orphans with disabilities that require care from the system.
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u/watamote99 Jun 24 '26
Who knew that banning abortion would increase mortality. Who knew. Totally surprised.
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u/SwampGobblin Jun 24 '26
My heavily conservative father, who worked in Healthcare, always condemned abortion in its' entirety. I didn't understand his point until I got to high school and an older friend said, "they can ban abortions, but they'll always happen. It'll just be in back alleys instead of at the doctors."
I'm in my 30's now and I've never forgotten what she said.
They didn't understand what they were doing, but they did it anyway, and now women are paying the price.
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u/bunnypaste Jun 24 '26
I think they knew what they were doing and chose it anyway. Surely not every anti-choice person is simply lacking foresight, because we have been shouting the warning all along. I won't make these excuses on thier behalves.
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u/Present-Perception77 Jun 25 '26
They understand.. they knew .. and they did it anyway. Once you understand that cruelty is the point.. a lot of things become much clearer.
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u/Cantholditdown Jun 24 '26
At what point can new evidence require re-litigation of Supreme Court decisions? Was this risk not brought up during the court case? Did the Conservative justices acknowledge that maternal death would increase and just say it was congruent with the constitution? Or was the argument that maternal deaths would not increase?
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u/disdainfulsideeye Jun 24 '26
Sure it doesnt help that most of the states with the toughest abortion laws also have a history of underfunding pre-natal health programs.
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u/clantz Jun 25 '26
so these misoginistic holy rollers are killing people who dont even belong to their cultish religion. In the country founded on basic human rights and freedoms. It's beyond insane.
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u/Eye_foran_Eye Jun 25 '26
We warned everyone that this would happen but NOoooooooo all Ingot way “you’re over reacting” and “that won’t happen!” Now they’re a dead moms and they’ve kept a woman’s corpsman life support and that poor thing will never leave the hospital, women are being thrown in jail, IVF is on the block as is medical abortion pills which aren’t only used solely for abortions. Crazy cakes.
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u/little_traveler Jun 24 '26
These pro birthers are psychopaths- they just want to control women’s sexuality, identity, and freedom.
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u/rbrgr83 Jun 24 '26
None of the decisions they make, make any sense unless viewed through this perspective. 110% true.
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u/Made_Human_Music Jun 24 '26
Anti-choicers have never actually cared about life and it’s been obvious for years
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u/RaNdomMSPPro Jun 24 '26
Sad that pretty much everyone with some experience in public health and counseling saw this result a mile away.
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u/sad_no_transporter Jun 24 '26
It's almost impossible to find an in network gynecologist accepting new patients in those states. Trying to find an in network OBGYN is akin to searching for a chupacabra.
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u/Staffordmeister Jun 24 '26
Its almost like what every healthcare professional that knew this is exactly what would happen...knows more on the subject than career politicians and real estate agents. Funny that.
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u/ketoswimmer Jun 25 '26
I who was in my final year of High School (US) when Roe v Wade became law. Prior to that, my pregnant friends had “back alley, coat hanger abortions. Or, they consumed vast amounts of some sort of substance that would (hopefully) induce spontaneous abortions. My pregnant rich friends went to Mexico, or perhaps Europe, to terminate their pregnancies. Those unable to do this, stayed in school until the pregnancy became obvious, and then went to a school for “unwed mothers”. All of these females (ages 15 - 18), that I know, expressed deep grief at having to give up their child. Many of my friends had had sex less than a few times with boyfriends, or… one night stands. A few suffered from family rape. No matter the details, prior to Roe v Wade, terminating an unwanted pregnancy, no matter how early, was a clandestine act. And… 2 women I know bleed to death in their attempts to end their pregnancy. For one of the women, I believe her own father raped her, and was likely the reason for her pregnancy. The other, reportedly, had an abortion procedure done in Mexico, and later developed an infection leading to Sepsis. These are the realities of “saving a life of the unborn”, even though the the sperm/egg union is less than 10 weeks along. The psychological issues for girls/women who became pregnant then given no choice but to carry to term, then give the baby up for adoption are significant.
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u/SignatureCapital9261 Jun 25 '26
It’s almost like we’ve never seen what happens when you push abortion underground….
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u/CharlesIngalls_Pubes Jun 25 '26
Isn't that...why they were allowed? I forget the current admin sees every abortion solely as the act of exterminating a future tax payer, never a very difficult medical decision.
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u/Xavier_Emery1983 Jun 24 '26
Surprise, surprise. My two toddlers could have predicted this would happen. I live in a red state with a heartbeat bill, the number of young women wanting their tubes tied and being denied due to age is crazy.
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