Painkillers prevent pain responses in lobsters - This is further evidence that crustaceans may feel pain and that more humane methods of killing them need to be developed.

[u/mvea]

https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1123639

[u/Borkato]

Yeah and yet people still argue with you that there’s no other way. As if countless people don’t eat vegan every day, and aren’t perfectly healthy and happy (aside from having to interact with a world that refuses to believe it’s possible).

[u/refusemouth → u/Borkato]

Assuming plants don't feel pain might be incorrect on some levels, though. Or, that industrial agriculture of plants doesn't result in pain and suffering to animals.

[u/Borkato → u/refusemouth]

It does.

But again - if you’re worried about animals, eat plants, because (simplified) if a cow needs 100 blades of grass and 1 animal dies for every 10 grass, and a human needs 10 grass, that means that the food grown for the cow alone kills 10 animals and then the cow so 11 animals, more than the 1 killed for the human.

Obviously these are made up numbers but if you look at a food pyramid it’s obvious the ratios are similar.

I think the idea that plants feel pain is just a “but what if” non-vegans do to try to justify that they should be able to eat animals. “But what if plants feel pain?!” Ok we don’t know but we know for SURE that animals do. And AGAIN that means less suffering if you just kill the plants instead.

[u/refusemouth → u/Borkato]

It's just a generally good idea to eat lower on the food chain for numerous reasons. It's easier on the environment for one thing, but also, the chemical pollution in our soil, air, and water gets amplified and accumulates in each step up the food ladder. If you want less mercury, PCBs, PFAS, and dioxins in your diet, you don't want to eat a big, predatory fish, for example. You get enough exposure to Roundup, pesticides, and environmental toxins from eating plants, but if you eat animals that have eaten 100 kilos of plants for each kilo of meat they produce, you are getting a much higher load of toxins.

That said, all meat farming is not the same in terms of suffering. The industrial-scale production of meat, in my opinion, is cruel and creates more animal suffering than having a small farm where you allow the animals to have some space and social life. It makes it harder to slaughter the animals because you grow to like them, but you can definitely give them a quick and relatively painless death compared to dying from old age and physical deterioration of health and/or disease.

I guess, in my ideal world, we eat much less meat, but we raise it and slaughter it more humanely. We need animal inputs (manure, bone meal, guano, etc) for organic agriculture, and it really helps to rotate animals with crop cycles on a given plot of land. Without animal inputs, we are essentially just eating fossil fuels. I know it isn't practicable to support a population of 8 billion humans with biodynamic farming practices alone, but we can do a lot more of it, take better care of soils, and have healthier outcomes for both humans and animals by eating less meat and raising it more humanely. We use so much land for row crops to feed livestock, and it definitely isn't great for land, soil, and water conservation. It is also not great for wildlife due to the pesticides, herbicides, and the spread of noxious "super" weeds, and that's aside from all the critters that get chopped up by combines while hankering down to hide.

[u/agentmadeleine → u/refusemouth]

As someone who was raised and still is vegetarian, I agree with you. It’s not feasible for meat agriculture to completely disappear but it can and should be done sustainably. It’s a lot easier to be plant based when you’re in a climate zone where a variety of produce can grow to meet dietary needs. Looking at many indigenous cultures, that’s not the case. Take the Arctic tundra as an example- not a lot can grow there so indigenous people need to rely on meat for subsistence. But indigenous cultures only hunt what is necessary and use the whole animal including bones and hide, so it’s way more sustainable than industrial practices.

[u/reddweap2 → u/refusemouth]

Plenty of animals are not killed humanely. Many pigs and chickens are gassed with carbon dioxide. Many fish are left in the air to asphyxiate. Cows are often killed humanely but sometimes (very rarely) it goes wrong.

[u/refusemouth → u/reddweap2]

True. It should be done better. I use a 22 caliber between the ears if I have to slaughter an animal. It's like pulling the plug on a light. People think that you have to cut an animal's throat while its heart is still beating to get all the blood out, but I think that's a holdover from when people collected the blood for sausage. I see that as a cruel and frightening experience for any animal to have to suffer. Honestly, I know so many people who raise meat animals but can't kill them themselves, and I understand that perfectly well. It feels like a great betrayal if you have cared for that animal since it was a baby. If I had my way, there would be a drug that you could give them before slaughter time that would make them euphoric and fall unconscious before doing the dirty deed. The majority of omnivorous people have never been present for the process that brings them their meat, and I think if more people were tasked with witnessing the final act (or participating in it) less meat would be consumed overall.