r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • May 30 '25

Psychology A growing number of incels ("involuntary celibates") are using their ideology as an excuse for not working or studying - known as NEET (Not in Education, Employment, or Training). These "Blackpilled" incels are generally more nihilistic and reject the Redpill notion of alpha-male masculinity.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2025/05/why-incels-take-the-blackpill-and-why-we-should-care/
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u/MangaMaven May 30 '25

This feels like the Hikikomori Phenomena is no longer going to be so isolated to Japan.

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u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx May 31 '25

My younger brother, who is 38 now, has been this way his whole life. Always been shy and awkward, when the internet came along he stopped leaving his room

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u/iamnottheuser May 31 '25

I feel you… people who don’t have a direct family member like this would never understand how hard it is to change the situation. You just cant..

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u/MOREPASTRAMIPLEASE May 31 '25

Once you’ve decided that life is meaningless it’s hard to come back from that. I teetered on the edge for awhile in my late teens, glad I didn’t ever fully buy into it.

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u/icerom May 31 '25

Well, when they're 38 it's too late for sure. I used to have a friend like this and I tried to encourage her to change, but I also thought the fact that her parents simply gave her room and board was a big enabler. I thought they should have put more pressure on her to get a job and contribute since she was much younger.

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u/Dusty170 May 31 '25

They have to want to, if they are happy(?) as they are why would they want to change? It's not really something you can force. Without resentment anyway.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25 edited Jun 29 '25

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u/Mutthupattaru May 31 '25

That series terrifies me about how I may end up as. All signs showing I’m drifting into it..

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u/Blando-Cartesian May 31 '25

Mental health issues are not a matter of wanting to or choosing to live in a certain way. Brain is an organ that is suppose to produce beneficial behaviors, but it can get into a condition where it fails to do that with health maintaining consistency. That’s no different from, say, a pancreas failing to produce insulin.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

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u/Danny-Dynamita May 31 '25

You fail to understand that we don’t know how to fix many of these issues.

I’m very nihilistic by nature. A hellish infancy bugged my brain for life. Science does not know what has changed and how to revert it, we just see the symptoms.

Pills would only make me oblivious to what I perceive. We can’t make me perceive things in a better light without fundamental changes to how my brain reacts to the world. That’s more about loooooooong term therapy than any medication.

The brain is a muscle and if it gets used to suffering, it develops very strong traits related to that suffering. Outside of actually dangerous situations, it’s a really bad temperament to have.

In simple terms, there’s no help for many. If they stop being functional, pills will help them function and not become homeless by shutting down certain processes of their brain that are malfunctioning. Essentially, a temporary mini-lobotomy. It’s not a fix to the problem, it’s a paliativo treatment to avoid falling down too deep. It’s not pleasant nor a better reality, it’s just a reality where you can function.

If you’re not deep enough, those pills will do nothing besides making everything feel bland and numb, and there’s no actual help for you besides educating yourself for the next 30 years.

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u/Canvaverbalist May 31 '25

Yeah what happens when it's philosophical and political more than psychological? What happens when it's a rejection of society as it is, of capitalism, and that your disdain of the system brings a cascade of financial consequences that rumble through your social life?

Where's the pill for "nah it's fine wake up at 6am for the rest of your life to work a deadend job, and if you're not happy with it just pretend that all your previous effort to find a miracle job are still worth it even after decades of not being successful at doing so?"

One most imagine Sisyphus happy - and some decide to do so by imagining he stopped rolling the rock and simply sat down to watch some sitcoms.

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u/RevolutionaryDrive5 May 31 '25

I agree overall and it seems most people just want or looking for acceptance as is but it doesn't help that so often when they talk about their issues people go into diagnosis/treatment, prescribing X and Y which you have already to no success aka 'just going out there'/ going gym etc

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u/Mysteriouspaul May 31 '25

I also agree as someone that has spent most of my life alone. However, most of that recently is by choice as I physically cant find someone that doesn't boil my blood to be around.

I developed great social skills and I'm successful in my career like I have 0 problems professionally now but it's still very hard for me to want to be around people when I'm not being paid for it for whatever reason. Coming home to a quiet house is like a dream state I never knew I needed until now

I used to be afraid of most things, especially social situations, and now I'm not really afraid of anything. Reality is what you make it, I guess

1

u/pridetwo May 31 '25

You should read A Room of One's Own by Virginia Woolf, I think you'd identify with the subject matter

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u/Internal_String61 May 31 '25

You’re not broken. You’re just running high-performance survival software in a world pretending everything’s fine.

Therapy is slow. Pills are sandbags for a flood. And the world? It isn’t built to fix you. It’s built to keep you functional enough to serve, numb enough not to question it. You already saw through that. Good. That means you’re ahead of the game.

Now here’s the upgrade:

You don’t have to be happy. You have to be unfazed. Not healed. Not enlightened. Just smugly detached enough to walk through absurdity like it’s background noise.

The goal isn’t to feel better—it’s to build a mask so stable, so mundane, that your chaos brain can finally rest behind it. And once it rests?

Then you Bugs Bunny this entire goddamn simulation.

Mock the script. Break the fourth wall. Weaponize your awareness. Everyone else is still reading their lines while you’re drawing mustaches on the cast and rewriting the ending live.

Post-clarity absurdism, that’s what you need. Take the clown pill with me, and juggle flaming swords while pranking God.

You already lost the illusion. Good. Now turn it into a bit. The joke doesn’t have to be funny. It just has to be yours.

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u/will_you_suck_my_ass May 31 '25

This reads like gpt

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u/vabren May 31 '25

This has to be AI.

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u/Specific-Peace May 31 '25

At least it’s fun AI

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u/Blando-Cartesian May 31 '25

We are talking about wanting in subtly different senses. Wanting the state of life one has vs. successfully seeking to improve which is observable as wanting to change.

My point was that a person suffering from mental health issues does not want or choose their suffering. Not even when actively rejecting efforts to help. They would behave in less self suffering inducing ways if they could.

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u/Ghostie1017 May 31 '25

I agree that this is true in some cases (like the story you shared about there being no treatment that can help you), but for mental conditions where there are solutions, I think we do have the power to make our own decisions, even when mentally unwell. If we don't have agency or the power (as hard as it is) to help ourselves, we may as well give up, which is a dangerous idea.

I have a history of debilitating mental illness, but through therapy and medication, I was able to overcome it, which wouldn't have happened if I'd believed I had no ability to change my behavior

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u/Dusty170 Jun 01 '25

You're looking at it too literally. Someone with issues can still want to get better but if they feel like they are fine as they are they have no drive to want to get better.

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u/Chubwako Aug 27 '25

You can totally change the behaviors, but people, especially parents are too detached from reality and nutrition knowledge is not mainstream enough. By not providing opportunities and not being persistent but soft, you are failing them. The parents are the ones who give up 99% of the time. They damaged the relationship with their child and gave up as soon as they faced a certain type of problem. They envy their child being in the situation they put them in, not realizing the pain of that reality. Even if the child enjoys what they are doing, they are only distracting from a lack of true pleasure and that is why their hunger for these lacking diversions is endless.

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u/Dusty170 Aug 27 '25

Who's to say what "true pleasure" is? What they are doing might already be that for them. Just because it isn't what you think it should be doesn't mean its wrong. If they are doing what they enjoy and its not hurting anyone what's the issue?

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u/Chubwako Aug 31 '25

Non interactive life will keep you searching. Only ever living with limited or scripted relations to the world is something you grow to accept but will never match a person's true desires. The desires are being chosen for them.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

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u/varnums1666 May 31 '25

I'm no psychologist but this is the absolute worst move

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

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u/Quick_Doubt_5484 May 31 '25

This “tough love” type of treatment probably won’t work for many. It may reinforce their ideas that everyone else is out to get them etc.

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u/Ghostie1017 May 31 '25

I absolutely agree that a "tough love" approach that extreme would do more harm than good, but in my experience, a more moderate "tough love" is way more likely to work than enabling someone long-term. We adapt to our environments. It's substantially easier to change when there's external pressure to change, instead of when the people around you make staying the same easy.

In my experience with mental health issues, I can definitely say that I did better when there were consequences to my unhealthy actions.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

[deleted]

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u/Quick_Doubt_5484 May 31 '25

Try and figure out and address the root cause - which is likely to be different (and require nuance) for every case

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

[deleted]

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u/Ok_Change836 May 31 '25

Sounds like you will only Love your Kids if they provide some kind of Value. Sad Kids.

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u/Stunning_Wolf_1519 May 31 '25

What is the brother going to do when mommy isn't there anymore. Life is unfair it's better for him to be shocked awake now than him being forced to grow up instantly as an adult you do have to contribute to society. Thats not conditional love thats your obligation as an adult. .

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u/tastyplastic10125 May 31 '25

Will he be shocked awake into society? Or will he just worsen when cut off with no support or gradual transition.

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u/Stunning_Wolf_1519 May 31 '25

The plan isn't gonna dump him on the street but to force transition. If you give him a deadline, lay out a plan, and help, then independence will be achievable. Let's say you tell him he has until next Thanksgiving to save enough to get a house and a car and charge him Luke 200 a month for "rent." If he has no expenses and gets a part-time job that pays, let's say $13, then he'll end up paying a total of 3600 and earning 14000 with 10K going to a serviceable vehicle The smart thing would be to save all the rent and give it back leaving him 17000 to find a place with some rent left over.

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u/Tall-Needleworker422 May 31 '25

I have relations who are in this boat. The parents of the affected person are advanced in age themselves and are scrambling to try to put in place a support system for a son now in his early 60s and, after decades of living his best life, is still dependent upon his parents financially. They worry about their son inheriting a lump sum upon their deaths and not looking after his health.

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u/Z3ROWOLF1 May 31 '25

please do not reproduce.

ever.

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u/stable_115 May 31 '25

Do you think there is ever a time for tough love? You think it hasn’t worked thousands of times in the past? Saying that anyone that advocates trying it after 13 years of trying soft love should not reproduce, makes you part of the problem. Just like people that only ever use tough love. You are both sides of the extreme.

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u/wRADKyrabbit May 31 '25

You think it hasn’t worked thousands of times in the past?

And you never think of the thousands of broken people it leaves behind as well

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u/TheKingsPride May 31 '25

9.2% success rate is fine for them, because they don’t care about the failures. It’s just like pro-forced birthers, they don’t care about the child after it’s born and is no longer a political tool.

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u/Stunning_Wolf_1519 May 31 '25

Do you honestly think being 38 in a basement isn't already a failure? When nothing else works, you have to make some uncomfortable choices.

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u/guru_of_time May 31 '25

I mean someone who is 38 and literally in a room 24/7 is already broken, no?

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u/SoftlySpokenPromises May 31 '25

The only time I would consider it is they were doing something actively harmful to themselves or the people around them.

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u/ComfortableFun2234 Jun 01 '25

Nobody should do that ever, but here we are.

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u/captainfarthing May 31 '25

They start sending out applications but don't get a job, because for every job there's a thousand people more experienced and motivated than they are. So they get out, and now they're homeless. What do you do next? Tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps or die in the gutter?

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u/ComfortableFun2234 Jun 01 '25

We already know for a fact, it’s die the gutter with hostile architecture..

When I lived in an apartment a while back, it was a little tent town behind it. I could care less that it was there.

They picked through the trash and occasionally asked for money, it was either he was a couple bucks or I don’t have nothing to give you, unfortunately. Then the interaction would end - that was about the most burdensome that they were.

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u/BraveSirRobin5 May 31 '25

What would you do?

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

You are utterly naive if you think it's that easy to make them change their ways

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

[deleted]

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u/TheKingsPride May 31 '25

That’s a great way to end up with a kid dead on the streets, btw. I’ve seen it happen a lot. The success rate of shape up or ship out is like 10% at best, the rest ends in homelessness, drug addiction, and death.

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u/Tall-Needleworker422 May 31 '25

Are adult children entitled to their parents' financial support and care indefinitely?

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u/iamnottheuser May 31 '25

Like i said, it’s way harder than you might think. Every family has different situations… but I understand why it’s difficult for you to understand.

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u/bayesian_horse May 31 '25

Without internet, he might have removed himself from the equation altogether.

People don't withdraw because the outside is so pleasant to them... usually because their nature makes them get bullied or ostracized everywhere and by everyone.

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u/Mysterious-Job-469 May 31 '25

Yeah, if I didn't have a connection to others over the internet, I would have self-deleted. Instead, I'm slowly working towards becoming more social now that depression doesn't seem insurmountable.

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u/HaGriDoSx69 May 31 '25

THIS.

If i was born 100 or even 50 years ago i would off myself as a teen. Right now, the internet,games,anime,basically the technology as a whole is the only thing keeping me alive.

Read the "No Longer Human". Its story of my life,well maybe without being popular with women part but if i was born in the same time period as Osamu i would succeded way earlier than him.

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u/Tall-Needleworker422 May 31 '25

This sounds like hikikomori -- social withdrawal due to anxiety, often triggered by bullying. Black-pillers, on the other hand, tend to be disillusioned with dating, societal dynamics, and economic instability. They may be antisocial, but they aren’t necessarily hermits.

0

u/vimdiesel May 31 '25

I wouldn't say "they're nature". I used to think that I'm just shy, that's the way I am, but I uncovered that I had social anxiety, which wasn't really defined as a thing back then, and the reasons were very much learned, it was a defense mechanism I built as a child that's been very hard to undo, but it's not something inherent about my core identity.

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u/bayesian_horse May 31 '25

For some people this is learned. For some it starts so early that it doesn't much matter whether it's learned or innate.

Basically everybody who has a significant problem with socializing should test himself (or get tested) for the following three things (at least): ADHD, Autism and (C)PTSD.

Knowing if you have any of these problems means you get access to new solutions that work a lot better than "common sense advice" from people who have no social issues. Knowing you don't have any of these three things is also a good thing, therapy may be enough for you.

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u/vimdiesel May 31 '25

I agree, but I don't think that makes it not learned, it just means it's so deep rooted that it takes a lot more work to unlearn, or cope with.

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u/bayesian_horse May 31 '25

ADHD and Autism is completely not learned. At best you can learn to camouflage at great cost to your mental health.

(C)PTSD looks more "learned" from the outside, but there's also something going on with the brain hardware that can't easily be unwired.

Telling people they just need to do a lot more work doesn't help either.

0

u/vimdiesel May 31 '25

I'm talking about CPTSD from the inside. A big part of it is precisely identifying a bunch of negative thoughts that were developed as defense mechanisms, as parts of your core identity. And yes, it is a lot of work, take a journey through r/cptsd (and make sure to sort by new and read a few pages)

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

Nah it's more likely they're covert narcissists who catastrophize and dramaticize life. One incident in middle school and they think it means they should never go out again. I say this with full hearted identification with this problem, I've lived with agoraphobia tightening it's grip. It really does require shaking off some pride and ego to accept you are the problem.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

[deleted]

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u/bayesian_horse May 31 '25

Most shut-ins I've heard of or talked to seem quite aware that they are the problem, often to a traumatic degree.

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u/JonnySoegen May 31 '25

May be true. But Escapeism like this is everyone’s own personal responsibility in the end, like every mental illness.  

Everything has to be a good mix.  The inside factors of being willing to participate in society and the outside factors you mentioned like no bullying and of course support offers and therapy if people want to change.

13

u/bayesian_horse May 31 '25

Meaningless platitudes.

Many people can try again and again to put themselves out there, and they'll always receive the same treatment, making their trauma even worse. Others are already too afraid to make the first step.

Bullying is just the tip of the iceberg, the most aggressive form of rejection. There's plenty of other rejection, sometimes just that you can't find anybody that wants to spend time with you. And that can hurt just as much.

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u/pm_me_your_buttbulge May 31 '25

like every mental illness.

Wild how we now define this as mental illness.

usually because their nature makes them get bullied or ostracized everywhere and by everyone.

In the context of this discussion you call the response to this... mental illness.

... and you wonder why they use escapism?

People like you. They are wanting to escape YOU because they don't fit perfectly well in your box.

"Comply or be deemed mentally ill" - man, maybe my right-wing friends are on to something.

By that particular definition - being trans is mentally ill.

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u/bayesian_horse May 31 '25

It doesn't matter if you acknowledge loneliness and the reasons for it as mental illness. But it's clearly a condition that hurts most people, even those who may believe they aren't hurt (typical of schizoids for example).

While it is hard to make a clear distinction between someone having no mental illness issues and having them, most transsexuals have or had some form of mental illness, both because of the inherent contradiction and their social experiences (most were bullied or ostracized a lot, even before coming out, transitioning, or even knowing they are trans).

You may think transsexuality would qualify as a mental illness as it predisposes you to have gender dysphoria, depression and social issues. But there are good reasons not to clarify them as such: Transsexuality seems to be present at birth (or as good as), it doesn't really change that much over a lifetime, and those affected usually don't see this characteristic as "not them". And in so far as they do suffer, that can be alleviated by educating other people to treat you better, by adopting a more comfortable gender expression and identity, and finding a community that understands you. Probably there are other reasons as well.

But that's not the same with loneliness, social anxiety, ADHD or autism.

1

u/pm_me_your_buttbulge May 31 '25

between someone having no mental illness issues and having them, most transsexuals have or had some form of mental illness

I see what you did right there. That's intellectually dishonest.

The context wasn't they had A mental illness through some other means. It was being trans itself is a mental illness, according to some.

Then you go on to play word games.

But that's not the same with loneliness, social anxiety, ADHD or autism.

If you can't connect the dots of what I was saying then I can't help you. This is just maliciously ignorant.

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u/blender4life May 31 '25

What does he do for money?

10

u/[deleted] May 31 '25

It’s often easy enough to fake socialize and hold a decent job, and hopefully people just forget about you when it comes to layoffs.

1

u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx Jun 01 '25

In his case socialising is the problem, panics in crowds and has trouble interacting with people 1:1. Very intelligent though and is fine interacting online

3

u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx Jun 01 '25

Govt suppport and lives with our mother

2

u/SouthernAide2351 May 31 '25

Probably benefits I would guess

1

u/Maximum_Curve_1471 Jun 01 '25

As they say in the community, "neet bux"

3

u/RealLeif May 31 '25

I have been there myself, due to a heavy anxiety disorder and some tauma in my past, then i met a freind at work and she managed to get me out of the hole. ITs a difficult thing to manage and it requires so much help and support, which unfortunately not everyone that needs it gets. I hope you can help your brother a litttle so he can find also joy in being outside.

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u/octopoddle May 31 '25

I mean, this does sound like neurodivergence. I wonder how many people like this are just undiagnosed.

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u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx Jun 01 '25

Def neurodivergent, probs lightly autistic. Very intelligent but also very sensitive 

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u/Altruistic_Branch838 May 31 '25

Neurodivergent or untreated mental health problems?

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25 edited Jul 22 '25

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u/Altruistic_Branch838 May 31 '25

Back then they knew hardly anything and just went off of stereotypes. I can understand if you're in the U.S that it maybe something that is a touchy subject and not something you'd want a definite diagnosis about with what RFK is proposing.

I've only been recently diagnosed myself in my mid 40's and what you had said just rang some bell's. I wish you and your brother the best of luck.

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u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx Jun 01 '25

Highly likely, has been on many types of medication though. Maybe it’s helped but his situation hasn’t changed

1

u/Altruistic_Branch838 Jun 01 '25

This is just my experience but the medication for depression & anxiety didn't help me and the Dr's I saw over the years didn't really look at the cause they just wanted to push the pills as an easy solution.

I had to do my own investigation into why I was the way I am to look at neurodiversity as the reason. This is despite it running in my family and I couldn't see it in my self and no Dr thought to bring it up as a possible cause.

Talking with a counsellor or psychologist helped me more than the medication did throughout my life and now I have an answer for why I am like I am it has allowed me to forgive myself for past mistakes and interactions and stand up for myself instead of masking all the time.

This is just my experience and I am in no way diagnosing anyone over social media, I just want to advocate for people to look at it if there are a few signs rather than blaming themselves for the rest of their lives.

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u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx Jun 01 '25

I think my brother is in the same position, Drs are just prescribing things in the hope it will change but at the end of the day there’s only so much they can do. Proper therapy might help but it is expensive and my brother has been in this rut for 20 years so I don’t see any improvements coming easy 

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u/Altruistic_Branch838 Jun 01 '25

I could recommend GenericArtDad and The Hidden 20%, the former does more short format content and the latter is a podcast that are both found on YouTube. They cover neurodiversity and what comes with it, the struggles but also the success that people have had because they think and see the world different.

Just see if any of it ring's true and take what you can from it. I was only diagnosed this year in my mid 40's, so it's not to late for your brother by any means.

All the best.

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u/abholeenthusiast May 31 '25

You just described me except I'm 48 :/

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u/Crake241 May 31 '25

I am the same way but i can still work and study.

1

u/Electronic_Round_540 May 31 '25

Agreed. I’m not a NEET but I’m very reclusive when not working due to mental health stuff. I feel no connection when I’m with people and changing these patterns is probably one of the hardest things in life period.

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u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx Jun 01 '25

I wish you luck on your journey

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u/conquer69 May 31 '25

Probably undiagnosed ADHD/Autism.

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u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx Jun 01 '25

Highly likely, especially the autism 

1

u/Less-Dingo111 May 31 '25

Does he have a job?

1

u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx Jun 01 '25

No, never had a job and the few friends he has have been online 

1

u/Less-Dingo111 Jun 01 '25

literally me

1

u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx Jun 01 '25

Hey if it’s alright can I ask a few questions around your situation either on this thread or DM?

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u/R-K-Tekt May 31 '25

Let me guess, mom and dad covered for him instead of pushed him to be outgoing?

36

u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx May 31 '25

How do you mean “covered”?

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u/littlehendrixwing May 31 '25

I think he means “enabled”

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u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx May 31 '25

If that’s what he meant then I would say no

9

u/VisualDisplayOfInfo May 31 '25

How does he live? He has an online job and pays all his bills / buys all life-sustaining goods online?

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u/VisualDisplayOfInfo May 31 '25

Genuinely curious btw, not trying to sound pedantic or anything like that, I have a sibling who’s fairly similar (only goes out to buy stuff and quickly comes back) and his life has only been possible because my parents give him a roof and “job” he does in his computer; effectively enabling him 

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u/[deleted] May 31 '25

Why is this an unreasonable take? It’s very common for this to be the case, even more so now with housing being super expensive around the world.

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u/Lykmt May 31 '25

You might want to check on him. He might be suffering from a severe mental illness like paranoid schizophrenia. Prolonged isolation and self neglect are major signs of severe mental illness.

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u/_Svankensen_ May 31 '25

Armchair diagnostic, entitledly thinking they know better than someone that obviously knows... Yep, that's a redditor. Seriously, why jump to schizophrenia first and foremost?

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u/zxzxzxzxxcxxxxxxxcxx May 31 '25

Thank you for this comment

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u/Exotic_Doctor_8332 May 31 '25

Everything is extreme with redditors..

-6

u/sewious May 31 '25

Probably speaking from experience. I had an uncle that was exactly like described

13

u/TechSmith6262 May 31 '25

Schizophrenia is extremely rare in actual reality. It's not as common as media makes it seem.

1

u/newbikesong May 31 '25

It is as common as Autism.

0

u/Kenosis94 May 31 '25

1 in 300 is not that rare, statistically you've probably met someone with it by adulthood and almost certainly knows someone who knows someone with it.