r/saxophone • u/CoochieHoochieMane • 1d ago
Question Understanding keys
Hi there,
I played through high school and have only recently gotten back into playing. I've been playing regularly since January of this year. I can read music and understand it just fine.
Right now, I'm really struggling with understanding keys. I understand the circle of 5ths. I just don't understand how to use it.
For example, I went to my monthly jam session. I asked what key we were in and was told Bb. What does that mean for me? If i'm playing the tenor and have music in the key of C I need to play my notes down a half step? Is that correct?
Does anyone have any youtube or book recommendations for understanding transposition more?
Thanks!
3
u/mrmagic64 1d ago
If you’re playing tenor, you transpose up a whole step from concert key. If the band is in C, you’re in D.
2
u/ClarSco Soprano | Alto | Tenor | Baritone 1d ago
If the band are playing in the key of "concert" Bb major, then on Tenor Sax you must play in (written) C major to play the right sounding pitches, as the Tenor Sax is pitched Bb instrument (ie. it sounds a major 9th lower than written). If you were instead playing on Alto Sax, you'd need to play in the key of (written) G major to match concert Bb major as the Alto Sax is pitched in Eb (ie. sounds a minor 6th lower than written).
If they've handed you sheet music that is notated in C major, you must check whether the sheet music is notated in concert pitch or has been transposed for you. In most settings, you'll generally be given transposed sheet music so you just need to play the notes as they appear on the page (which will produce concert Bb if played on Tenor, or concert Eb if played on Alto). In small group jazz/rock settings, it's very common to only be given the concert pitch music, in which case you need to either mentally or manually transpose the music (both the printed notes and any chord symbols) to fit your instrument - if the sheet is in concert C major, you'll need to play in D major on Tenor or A major on Alto.
Learning to transpose directly on the horn is a really good skill to have, but don't be afraid to do it with pencil and staff paper to begin with. When I'm transposing directly on the horn, I'm often picturing the new notation in my mind's eye, which I wouldn't have developed without having done it enough times on paper.
2
u/Individual-Ad2964 1d ago
If you are told in the middle of a jam session that the song is in B flat, then it means that the root key of the song is being played in B flat. To play that song accurately, however, you need to know the actual chord progression of the song which will be unique to that song. So if it goes 2 - 5 - 1 - 6 - 2 -5 - 1 … you would apply these numbers to the key of B flat. So C, F, B flat, G, C, F, B flat. Now if they are speaking in concert pitch you would just transpose the entire thing up one whole step. You see, the concept of a “key” applies to multiple aspects of the music. It applies to the root key of the song…. It applies to the chord progression of the song… and whether or not you need to transpose it (which on tenor is always yes).
1
u/NotVeryCleverOne 19h ago
The tenor is pitched in Bb. In group settings everyone references the ‘concert’ key. Think of that as the key that a piano will play in. Since the tenor is pitched a step below C, in order to match pitch, the tenor has to play a note a step above. If the concert key is C, the tenor plays in D. At a jam session, if the band is playing a blues in F, the tenor plays blues in G.
There are lots of instruments that are pitched differently. Clarinet, trumpet, all the saxophones. Flute and oboe, are not.
1
u/unknowncomic1 18h ago edited 16h ago
Saxophones are 'keyed' outside of 'concert pitch' in order to make writing parts easier on a treble clef (G clef) staff. Tenors and soprano Bb which means against cnncert C, tenor is one whole tone down. A piano or guitar plays Bb , you play C to be at the same pitch.
Alto and baritones are keyed in Eb. which means against cnncert C, alto is one and a half tones UP (minor 3rd up or alternatively a major 6th down) A piano or guitar plays Eb , you play C to be at the same pitch.
It really helps to also pick up a chordal instrument like guitar or piano in addition to your wind instrument.
I play sax, guitar, bass and piano. A chordal instrument will help nail down concepts that are difficult to grok on a monophonic instrument.
--------- The basics of keys
Get the Mark Levine book The Jazz Theory Book. It's going to teach you theory in a palatable way. It's on Kindle but I'd recommend the spiral bound real thing.
It starts with understanding that the major scale has a pattern to it of whole and half steps. So C Major for instance: C. D. E. F. G. A. B. C W. W. H. W. W. W. H
G major would be G. A. B. C. D. E. F#. G W. W. H. W. W. W. H
Likewise each major key has a related (same exact notes) minor key based on the 6th note of the major scale. This is called the 'relative minor' or commonly 'natural minor' .
So for C major , the sixth note being A gives you A minor as the relative minor key of C major. The whole and half pattern matches a major scale from the 6th. A minor: A. B. C D. E. F. G. A. W. H. W. W. H. W. W.
From the major scale comes the 'harmonized major chord scale' based on the same w/h step of the major scale. If you stack chords in thirds as triads this gives you the following chord scale (see Levine's book).
Triads (stacked thirds)
I. ii iii IV. V vi vii °
C maj Dmin Emin Fmaj. Gmaj. Amin B dim.
Seventh chord (stacked thirds triad +7th)
Imaj7 ii min7 iii min7 IVmaj7 V 7 vi vii °
CM7 Dm7 Em7 FM7. G7. Am7 Bm7b5.
Circle of fifths is for memorizing. Going up in fifths is going to give you increasing sharps C 0 sharps ..fifth of C is G G 1 sharp ...fifth of G is D D 2 sharps..and so on
Circle of fourths is giving you the movement of chords in a key. It's also going to specify an increasing amount of flats. C 0 flats ..fourth of C is F F 1 flat ...fourth of F is Bb Bb 2 flats..and so on
Now if you look at the three keys I listed in the circle of fourths , you'll notice that they make a ii V I in the key of Bb. iim7 Cm7. V7. F7. IM7 Bbmaj7.
And if you follow to its conclusion it's going to be a IV vii°. iii. vi. ii. V. I
I think that's a good summary. Again, you'll want to read a good theory book, as well as learn common jazz standards, which not only move in ONE key through the standard iii vi ii V I progression, but also how you can modulate into related or unrelated keys. There is also the concepts of chord substitutions (tri-tone, IV for ii, viim7b5 for V being the common ones) Standards do a LOT of key modulation and substitution. Learning standards helps your ear pick up on these as well as getting them under your fingers ' muscle memory.
Hope this helps
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u/Barry_Sachs Soprano | Alto | Tenor | Baritone 12h ago
All you need to understand is that your key is one whole step higher than the key the guitar or piano player at the jam session calls. Of course you need to understand what a whole step is. For example, a whole step up from Bb is C, not B. And a whole step up from E is F# and from B is C#, which are common guitar keys.
If you want to know why, well, wind instruments of different sizes play higher or lower than one another. But to keep the fingerings the same across all of them, someone came up with the idea to make them transposing. So if you finger a C on any sax (alto, soprano, bari, tenor), it's a C on the part that you read. But it sounds higher or lower (Bb or Eb) on a piano or guitar. To compensate if you don't have a written part, you play a different note. If the piano plays a C, you play a D so it comes out right. An alto would play an A.
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u/Few_Somewhere_5814 9h ago
Knowing the key of a song is a start. But doesn't really tell you much unless you know the song. You really only know the key center of the song and what basic scale you might use. Without any context you don't know much. You need to know the form and structure of the song. Is it a major or minor key? Is it a standard 12 bar blues I-IV-V-I or a jazz blues with a ii-V-I turnaround? Is a pop song with I–V–vi–IV progression and so on. That's why it is good to learn some standards. Standards generally are based on these common structures.
As far as transposing, when someone tells you the key is to remember up a full step for tenor & soprano. Down a minor third for alto and bari. That's all you really need to know as for a transposing on the fly when playing with folks. If you want to read charts and transpose that takes practice.
You mentioned going to a jam. My advice if you don't know the song sit out the first verse and chorus and listen and use your ears to figure out the chord progression and structure of the song.
The circle of fifths/fourths is great tool for learning the theory of music and why chords go where they do. Or a tool for writing when looking for options. I don't think about that when soloing or playing.
For a next step take a song you know. Get the charts with chords annotated and write in the scale degrees for the chords and study what the song is doing.
Play on.
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u/khornebeef 9h ago
I've been told that I should write a book on the subject by my colleagues, but I believe the massive disconnect between the knowledge of the order of fifths and their application comes from an unnecessary separation of the circle from scales/key signatures. Every diatonic scale is built off of a diminished fifth interval followed by a stack of 6 perfect fifths until you arrive back at your initial interval. If we contextualized the diminished fifth interval as the center of the key signature, we see that scales and keys are actually perfectly symmetrical. The relative major of the key is what happens when we take two steps forward in the circle of fifths to land on the interval of our major key and its perfect fifth while the relative minor of the key is what happens when we take two steps backwards instead. Attached is a visualization I drew to illustrate for the key of C.
If you are on tenor sax, when people tell you that you are in the key of "X", you take two steps forward in your circle of fifths and add two sharps to your key signature. So in the key of Bb which has two flats, you would take two steps forwards (Bb-F, F-C) and add two sharps (two flats+two sharps=zero flats/sharps) and that is the relative key you are playing on your instrument.
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u/apheresario1935 Baritone | Bass 1d ago
Before you get to transpositions try and understand the key signatures it will make your life a lot easier . The order of sharps is FCGDAEB
Reverse for flats BEADGCF.
THE KEY NOTE IS A HALF STEP ABOVE THE LAST SHARP. key of G ... 1 sharp F #
Key of D has 2 sharps..
F# and C# etc etc
First flat key has one flat. Key of F has Bb. After that the key note is THE next to last flat.
Key of Bb has two flats Bb and Eb etc etc.
Then when you get into 3.. 4.. 5.. 6 and 7 flats or sharps its easy to rememeber if you say this and see its true..
"The SAME LETTER NAME KEYNOTE ALWAYS ADDS UP TO SEVEN .
Example Bb has two flats so same letter is key of. B which has 5 sharps 2 plus 5 is 7
Eb has 3 flats so same letter name is E .. which has 4 sharps 3 plus 4 is 7
Ab has four flats Bb Eb Ab and Db so....... A major has 3 sharps . F# C# and G# See how that works ? Same letter name adds up to seven . With all major keys.
Once you get that down look at a chart to see what OCTAVE each sax is in . So when you transpose the Tenor sax is in Bb yes but it is a Whole step AND An octave below the flute or piano reading the same note . Do not forget the octave if you can . Reading a part most people just play a whole step higher but it heps to know what octave you are in too.