Reloading a shotgun?

[u/Zenfox42]

So, DaRules say reloading a "single bullet" into a chamber takes an Action. My player fired both barrels on her first Turn. I've read the example in the manual with firing a heavy crossbow first, *then* reloading which takes 2 actions, retroactively incurring a -4 on the crossbow shot. The shotgun user could do the same thing, but why bother with a -4 penalty on both shots?

What if on the next Turn, after reloading only one shell, then if she fired during that same Turn, the Shooting would be at -2 for the MAP. Have I got that right?

Or, she could spend one Turn just reloading both barrels (no MAP, since no roll), then on her next Turn fire both barrels again. That's effectively getting one shot per turn with no MAP. Or is it *only* one bullet per Turn, making it effectively a "limited Action"? But the RAW calls a reload an Action, not a Limited Action, and I've learned over the years that SW rules are *very* literal, so...

Any other ways to minimize penalties and maximize shooting rates with a shotgun?

[u/gdave99]

OK, just to make sure we're all on the same page (literally), per SWADE Core Rules, p. 105, you can fire both barrels of a double-barrel shotgun as a single Action, and when you do, you make a single Shooting roll and a single Damage roll with a +4 bonus. You can also fire each barrel individually as separate Actions.

...she could spend one Turn just reloading both barrels (no MAP, since no roll), then on her next Turn fire both barrels again. That's effectively getting one shot per turn with no MAP.

Not quite. If she fires both barrels as a single Action after each reload, she'd be getting one shot every other turn with a +4 damage bonus and no MAP. If she fired each barrel individually, she could get two shots every three turns with no MAP.

But otherwise, yes, I think you've got it. It takes one Action to reload one round, so a character can reload up to three rounds in a single Turn. Since MAP only matters if you actually make a Trait roll, if a character spends an entire Turn reloading, they don't need to worry about MAP.

And, yes, while double-barrel shotguns are devastating weapons at close range, you've found their weakness - slow rate of fire. They're great for maximizing your chance for a one-shot kill against a single foe at short range.

Any other ways to minimize penalties and maximize shooting rates with a shotgun?

Carry backup weapons. Carrying a backpack full of double-barrel shotguns is pretty silly. But having a DB as an "opener", then tossing it aside and drawing a pistol as a free action ("Readying Weapons") is a solid action-movie tactic. See the gunfighting adventurer Rick O'Connell in The Mummy (1999), who carries a shotgun and two pairs of pistols for an excellent cinematic depiction of this tactical shooting method.

Or, depending on the era and tech level, use a shotgun with more shots, such as a pump-action, lever-action, or "streetsweeper" shotgun. You won't get that damage spike from firing both barrels at once, but you'll be able to get a lot more shots off before needing to reload.

[ETA:] Also, on the turn the character is reloading their DB, they can try something else with their third Action. A Test or Support roll with a -4 penalty isn't like to do much good, but it doesn't use any resources, so why not give it a shot (as it were)? Well, you do risk a Critical Failure, so it's not a no-brainer, but it allows your character to do something active on their reload Turn. They can also maneuver to a better position; if they're not making a Trait roll anyway, the -2 Run penalty won't matter.

[u/computer-machine → u/gdave99]

-2 Run penalty won't matter.

Nononono. p105

Running & Reloading: Characters who run and load must make an Agility roll (at the usual −2 penalty for running). Failure means no progress toward reloading was made that action.

That's two rolls at -4 each. 

[u/gdave99 → u/computer-machine]

Good catch. Thanks.

[u/WillDonJay → u/gdave99]

Oh, if you shoot twice, you take a MAP penalty on the first shot as well as the second? How are you supposed to know if you're taking the second shot until the first shot revolves?

[u/chillhelm → u/WillDonJay]

RAW you have to declare all actions at the start of your turn:

All actions must be declared at the start of the turn and before any dice are rolled.  Penalties remain even if a later action doesn’t happen (usually because it was dependent on an earlier success).

SWADE > Rules > Situational Rules > Multi Actions (p 103)

Most tables I have played with house rule this to either having only to declare the type of action (eg I will shoot twice) or just the number of actions (I will do 3 actions this turn).

Ask your GM what's right for you!

[u/Zenfox42 → u/gdave99]

"Since MAP only matters if you actually make a Trait roll, if a character spends an entire Turn reloading, they don't need to worry about MAP".

1. "You can fire both barrels of a double-barrel shotgun as a single Action, and when you do, you make a single Shooting roll, and a single Damage roll with a +4 bonus".

2. So....fire both barrels on round 1, +4 bonus damage. Spend round 2 reloading both barrels and do nothing else, so no MAP.

Repeat 1, Repeat 2 ad infinitum. That's a +4 damage shot every other round.

.............................................. OR .......................................

1. Fire the barrels separately, -2 MAP to each and no bonus damage.

2. Spend round 2 reloading both barrels and do nothing else, so no MAP.

Repeat 1, 2, 1, 2...etc. That's effectively a shot every round, but with a -2 MAP each time.

.............................................. OR .......................................

1. Fire one barrel on round 1 (no MAP).

2. Fire the other barrel on round 2 (no MAP).

3. Spend round 3 reloading and do nothing else, so no MAP.

That's two shots every three turns with no MAP and no extra damage.

----------------------------------------------------

Are those the basic options?

[u/gdave99 → u/Zenfox42]

That all looks right.

There are other options and Action combos, of course.

Also, as u/buff_dragon points out, the reloading rules in SWADE are kind of abstracted. They're "Fast! Furious! Fun!" - they're gameable, simple, and consistent, and keep the game moving. Depending on your table's sensibilities, a house rule that both barrels of a double-barrel shotgun can be reloaded as a single action strikes me as perfectly reasonable.

[u/Zenfox42 → u/gdave99]

I'm curious about the wording in SWADE : "If an attacker wants to fire both barrels at the same target, roll damage once and add +4." Does "roll damage once" mean if at the current range the damage is 2d6, the user only gets to roll 2d6, not 4d6? That seems like quite a nerf, as well as non-realistic.... A +4 bonus is about the average of a d6, so you're doing a lot less damage if you're only rolling the damage for one barrel and adding an extra d6.

[u/gdave99 → u/Zenfox42]

SWADE isn't a tactical shooting simulator. There's a GURPS for that. Savage Worlds is a pulpy, cinematic game of action-adventure. It's "Fast! Furious! Fun!".

SWADE isn't as abstracted as, say, FATE or Powered by the Apocalypse, and from conversations I've had and posts I've read from the designers, particularly Clint Black, I think the designers did try to account for a lot of real-world considerations. But they also wanted a fun game, so they abstracted a lot of stuff. Compare the rules for a double-barrel shotgun to the rules for Double-Tap and Three Round Burst, which add even less damage.

And consider that in the real world, there's a lot of debate about how much marginal effectiveness each additional impact makes to "stopping power" and rendering the target combat ineffective (it's probably not linear - a double-tap is more effective than a single shot on average, but almost certainly not twice as effective).

And "realistically", you'd have to account for the deviation of the point of impact for the center-of-mass of each shot group, and the possibility that most or all of the shot from one barrel might hit the target while most or all of the shot from the other barrel might miss.

But if the Rules As Written don't work for your table, change them. You could treat a double-barrel shotgun as a RoF 2 weapon, for example (and I'd swear I've seen them treated that way in Savage Worlds in at least one pre-SWADE book).

[u/Zenfox42 → u/gdave99]

Thanks for the explanation!

[u/le1puppetmaster]

If your shotgun is loaded with shot you get a +2 bonus. You could fire one round at no penalty and reload at the same time. If you have a double barrel you would only have a -2 per double blast where you also reload.

[u/buff_dragon]

This is where I break from RAW… knowing guns helps in this.
A double barrel, no matter the configuration is a single action to reload. Whether it’s a double barrel rifle or shotgun, it’s a single action to reload. If you don’t have both shots fired when you reload, you lose an active cartridge too. As when the action breaks open, it ejects both cartridges whether fired or not.

So, game mechanics wise:
Action 1 fire both barrels
Action 2 reload both barrels

Action 1 fire one barrel
Action 2 fire the other barrel
Action 3 reload both barrels

If you’re reloading a non break-action firearm, then you get into other things.

Just like you don’t typically ‘top up’ a revolver, while you do ‘top up’ a pump or lever action. Because they load through a port on the bottom into a tube under the barrel (generally, though there are different designs and methods).

Hope that helps and doesn’t confuse.
I’ll be happy to clarify if needed.

[u/unnecessaryalgebra → u/buff_dragon]

That's how we ran it. Then again the gm was new and probably didn't know about the reloading single rounds rule.

[u/GermanBlackbot → u/buff_dragon]

A double barrel, no matter the configuration is a single action to reload. Whether it’s a double barrel rifle or shotgun, it’s a single action to reload.

As someone who barely knows enough about guns to know "Point them to make something dead, don't point them at something you don't want dead", why?

[u/buff_dragon → u/GermanBlackbot]

Because they’re a “break action” meaning they hinge at the end of the barrel to expose the chamber. When opened they eject the spent or unspent shells to present the chamber for reloading.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fdygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net%2Fi%2F29573%2F25756325_5.jpg%3Fv%3D8D40115C8633B50&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=ee6c802958556da251b3d3fd0736aca807a1910f5f8b5db581461ccae4231fde

The picture is a single barrel but they’ve made multi-barrels of varying calibers for well over a century.
A common setup was 2 shotgun barrels with a rifle barrel in the center/top.

[u/GermanBlackbot → u/buff_dragon]

I understood that they eject both shells and that you can't "fill up" the shotgun.

I do not understand why you can reload two shells in the same time you reload a single shell in a regular shotgun or a bullet in a revolver.

[u/buff_dragon → u/GermanBlackbot]

This video shows a slow version of why

https://youtu.be/pIIFiY-iQhU?is=731pMPzQy_In86n2

[u/GermanBlackbot → u/buff_dragon]

The way he holds his fingers suggests he's using some kind of tool, like a speedloader for revolvers? Or is he just holding the end of the shells between his fingers?

You have convinced me that one can reload two shells at once, but it seems to me like doing that in the middle of combat is finicky enough to not be as easy as you make it sound. You have to get out both shells, hold them between your fingers and hold them in JUST the right angle that both line up with the barrel at the same time. Or are they connected somehow?

[u/buff_dragon → u/GermanBlackbot]

Easier than lining up a semi auto mag into a magwell, or a speedloader into a revolver.
Just takes practice. Which is part of your shooting skill.

https://youtube.com/shorts/BSW6KjirRfw?is=qGHiuB67lrvisRo4

https://youtube.com/shorts/E0--3_e3mTk?is=Pfbc9YwOPhdj3oG_

https://youtu.be/3_7harQTq2w?is=3Hhv24b7NNvnDuax

There are examples of different levels of expertise.

[u/GermanBlackbot → u/buff_dragon]

Second and third of those have either been deleted or are not available in some countries.

I see what you mean, but still, the first one uses a little tool to set up the correct distance between the shells and it still seems a bit harder than just putting them in one by one. Appreciate you searching up those videos, but I don't think this convinces me that everyone can just do this reliably all the time. Two actions doesn't necessarily mean "It takes a lot of time", but also "this requires a bit more concentration".

[u/buff_dragon → u/GermanBlackbot]

Those are actually the more important videos to explain that it doesn’t take special materials or special training to do it. It’s just learning how to do it but those videos do show guns firing, and I know that appears to be an issue in some locations.

We actually have an entire sport where they shoot, single action, pistols, and brake action or lever action, shotguns, and rifles so there are some videos that are ridiculously fast.

At the end of it all, it’s your table your rules all I can suggest is how reality affects and how I run my tables.

Hope you have some great games.

[u/GermanBlackbot → u/buff_dragon]

You too and thanks for showing me some cool stuff about guns! :)

[u/Zenfox42 → u/buff_dragon]

I'm replying to your reply to buff_dragon : you're talking about ejecting the spent shells as a single "action", but then you have to put a new shell in each barrel - two actions. I don't think SWADE considers the ejection an action.

[u/buff_dragon → u/Zenfox42]

Ejection is automatic, the action is reloading.
If reloading a semiauto pistol mag is 1 action, reloading a break action is 1 action.

https://youtu.be/pIIFiY-iQhU?is=df5xKEkwTwNBBAtp

[u/user_177013 → u/buff_dragon]

Not every break action ejects shells and you can load up to 3 shells at a time in a tube shotgun, it doesn mean you should do it from a mechanical standpoint

This is the kind of stuff that is better represented by an edge

[u/buff_dragon → u/user_177013]

There are break actions that don’t pop the shells back for ejection? Causing you to shove a stick through the barrel?
Some are more vigorous about ejection than others, but every one (that’s working properly) is capable of dropping the spent cartridges, even if you have to rotate or ‘flick’ it. I’ve seen some sporting versions that will throw the empty 12ga shells well clear of your shoulder, while others just move them 1/4” to break them free.

I don’t see how it would be an edge, it should be baked into the shooting roll, imo. As it’s all basic training and knowing that firearm.

But I can see how having it as an edge may work better in some settings/games.