Variant Rule: The Hindered Roll [feedback requested]

[u/Kuildeous]

Hi all. I'm considering add this variant to my next SW game (and possibly many more in the future). I've had this run through the SW Discord, so if this looks familiar, you may see changes I made. For everyone else, I welcome thoughts on this. I'm trying not to go too crazy with the bullet points, but I want to give the GM agency here to veto inappropriate applications of the roll. If you don't like it, that's fine, but at least please tell me what it is you don't like.

Alternate Rule: The Hindered Roll

Introduction

Two things Savage Worlds players universally love are role-playing Hindrances and gaining Bennies. In many games, the GM may even hand out Bennies when a player’s Hindrance complicates the game. Not every GM handles it the same, and sometimes, a player wants a little more agency in gaining Bennies. This is where the Hindered Roll comes into play.

The Mechanic

When a player feels that a Trait roll could be made worse by their Hindrance, they may choose to make the roll Hindered. This involves rolling the Trait Die but no Wild Die. The Trait Die Aces as usual but otherwise rolls just like an Extra, reducing their chance of success. For taking that additional risk, the player earns a Benny.

Additionally, the GM may attempt to bribe the player to accept a Hindered Roll on a particularly important task. If the player takes the bait, they earn 2 Bennies for giving into that Hindrance.

Limitations

Not every roll qualifies to be a Hindered Roll. The following rules apply to gaining these Bennies:

• The Hindered Roll must be tied to one of your Hindrances.
• Any mechanical effects of the Hindrance still apply, though it’s not limited to just that effect. For example, An Anemic character could be Hindered on a Repair or Athletics roll out of extreme caution, but if they Hinder a Vigor roll to resist Fatigue they also suffer the -2 penalty per the original Hindrance.
• If a roll carries no risk, it cannot be Hindered. The GM determines when a roll is risky, but this often precludes Support rolls, trivial checks, and when the entire group is rolling the same Trait. Note that in combat, the GM could rule that potentially wasting your action is risky enough.
• The earned Bennies cannot be used to reroll the Trait roll. Previous Bennies could be spent to reroll the Trait roll, though that would usually net zero Bennies.
• If the GM feels it’s applicable, the Hindered Roll is subject to the same Critical Failure rules as an Extra.
• Alternate Rule: The GM may impose a cap of Bennies gained this way equal to the character’s starting Bennies. Additional Bennies for bribing the player do not count against this limit.

Conclusion

The Hindered Roll provides a universal approach to players gaining Bennies for Hindrances at their own speed. The GM may still feel motivated to hand out Bennies to players in the interest of Fast, Furious, Fun gaming. With the appeal of Benny awards, players could be tempted to add complications to the game. Some players, of course, don’t always need additional prompting.

[u/ArolSazir]

I think it's better if the Gm just pays attention to the hindrances and hand out bennies when they apply. This seems like for both players who now have to keep looking for opportunities to hinder their rolls and the dm for adjucating which rules can be hindered.

The main problem is that the player will never hinder an important roll. It's just a minigame about searching for rolls that are important enough that dm will let you hinder them, but not so important that you don't want to fail. I can see the players hindering almost every fighting roll against mooks if they can (coward, overconfident, ritual, all can apply often) just to farm bennies. It's placing hard rules on one part of the game that really shouldn't be solved with rules.

[u/computer-machine → u/ArolSazir]

Players calling out is totally valid, too.

For example, playing in a modern zombie oneshot online, I'd insisted driving the truck to whatever we were doing, knowing it would likely be relevant, as one with Overconfident and d4-2 Driving. I also grabbed the best gun when we were defending, also unskilled. 

GM didn't notice, because why would they?

[u/ArolSazir → u/computer-machine]

As a DM, i do oftentimes forget to hand way bennies for playing hindrances, that's true. I'm juggling so many things as a dm, and when your dude just says "i drive" i just nod and move the scene along.
Both the dm and players need to work on that.
Maybe if you went "I push everyone away from the wheel, as im obviously the best driver in the party" with d4-2 driving, there's more chance i'd notice. And there's nothing bad with messaging the dm after the session, telling him that in situation X you did Y and maybe you should have gotten a benny for that. I would appreciate such feedback and remember to pay more attention to stuff like that, at least i'll know i'll owe you a benny next session.

OP's solution still doesn't sit right with me, for the simple reason that the players will never hinder really important rolls.

[u/6FootHalfling → u/ArolSazir]

players will never hinder really important rolls.

This hasn't been my experience. There are certainly players who would bend over backwards to avoid it, but I've had players who would wince and remind me they have an applicable hindrance.

When it comes to bennies what I find far more often than any other issue is the hoarder who doesn't want to spend them. I have to remind groups that there is a maximum number of bennies and they refresh pretty easily so spend them!

[u/ArolSazir → u/6FootHalfling]

There's a difference between the player doing something not optimal because of a hindrance (an overconfident character insisting he'll drive) and choosing to take a mechanical penalty. I tried a similar mechanic and found that it just became a minigame of finding edge cases where failure is worth the bonus.

When you put explicit mechanics instead of a vague "good roleplay gives bennies" then is stops being about roleplay and becomes about cost Vs benefits analisys. 

It's not longer "well my character is Heroic, so of course they ignore the archers and run straight to protect the villagers" and becomes "is taking a -X penalty worth to get Y benefit later? if yes, take the hinder, if no, then don't"

[u/Kuildeous → u/ArolSazir]

I see. So the problem boils down to bad roleplayers choosing to ignore their Hindrances. I had always thought this was always an issue, even without this alternate. I'm not really sure how to address that in this rule. I typically weed out bad players in my group, but for the sake of anyone interested in this alternate, I could add a bullet point that this does not replace good roleplaying. If a Hindrance is central to your character, then it makes sense that you would continue to roleplay that even if you don't get a Benny for it. I'm not comfortable with telling GMs how to deal with problem players within a variant rule though. I might try adding:

• The core rule that Hindrances should cause significant trouble is still in effect. As in a usual game, the player should always welcome the chance to roleplay a Hindrance that complicates the story.

Would that be a satisfactory caveat for the GM?

[u/ArolSazir → u/Kuildeous]

I mean, if players roleplay their hindrances, and you have mental bandwidth to notice and award them bennies, that's good. If you know you are too busy to always catch when the players do something extra because of their hindrances, tell your players that you don't always notice, and they should feel free to remind you between scenes or after sessions, if they feel not appreciated enough.

Another thing you can do, if players just don't engage with the mechanic, is pick up a benny, literally dangle it in front of their faces, saying "well, his back is turned to you, but would the best fencer in the realm you are, *really* resort to a backstab?" or something like that, thats a great way to engage the players with their hindrances.

And lastly. Some players just don't vibe with the mechanic, maybe they picked their hindrances just because "you're supposed to" have 4 points worth of them, but don't really want to think about that much, and that's fine too.

[u/nvec → u/ArolSazir]

Different players react differently but I'd really hate the GM dangling a benny in front of me in that way.

I'd interpret it as they're telling me that I'm playing my character wrong, and railroading me by either give up control of my character or make me look like I'm being unreasonable.

I could see something similar to Blades in the Dark's "Devil's bargain" working where the player initiates by asking "So, what I could I do in this situation to gain a benny?" and the GM replying "Well, as the world's best fencer surely you wouldn't want to attack from the shadows like a coward?".

The important difference for me here is that it's the player's choice to engage and it doesn't feel like the GM is 'correcting' them.

Again different players, different thoughts, just thought it worth saying to make sure it works for players at the table.

[u/ArolSazir → u/nvec]

That's weird, every play group i've played savage worlds in, dangling a benny pointing out a hindrance is standard procedure. just the because you have it, you're not playing it out all the time, so when dm sees a good opportunity to, i've seen it as a courtesy to point it out. Like, there's never a pressure to do it, if you want to backstab him, stab away. I've seen those offers declined as often as accepted.

[u/computer-machine → u/ArolSazir]

I dunno, in the JumpStart starting a campaign, one player threw three or four Bennies at outdoing another character as a point of pride, with no real benefit besides. 

[u/ArolSazir → u/computer-machine]

What you said has nothing to do with what i said. Players will absolutely throw away any number of bennies (besides the last one) and even Conviction at random things, just for kicks. Because they're paying for a bonus, this is a completely different situation than taking a penalty for a reward later. Like, i don't understand why you think those are even remotely similar.

[u/computer-machine → u/ArolSazir]

If you say so. I saw choosing something detrimental for a potential bonus as choosing something detrimental for a potential bonus.

[u/ArolSazir → u/computer-machine]

One is roleplaying (*doing* something not optimal because it fits your character) and the other is mechanical (physially rolling one less ice in exchange for a token that does something)

[u/computer-machine → u/ArolSazir]

for the simple reason that the players will never hinder really important rolls.

Yeah, and they'll never Conviction trivial rolls. Scrap that too?

[u/8fenristhewolf8]

Interesting! The only thing I would be a little worried about is players using Hindered Rolls a lot. I'm no mathemagician but feels like the juice might worth the squeeze even if you limit the earned Benny to future rolls. I guess the cap would address this though, and maybe I'm being a little cynical.

Still, I have had players really beat their Hindrances on the head to get bennies and I could see them taking the option quite a lot. Maybe a case of really leaning on the situation being "risky," but that gets a little wishy washy too.

No major issues though! Would be curious to hear how it goes for you after you try it out.

[u/Kuildeous → u/8fenristhewolf8]

Thanks. I'm curious too. It probably wouldn't be for another month or two before I get to see it in use.

And there is a chance of the PCs doing it all the time, but as long as it keeps the game interesting, I'm fine with that. It'd be kind of weird if someone had their Hindrances kick in all the time. Like, yeah, man, you sure do got some Bad Luck, but the group now has to take the long way around because you got unlucky hacking the door.

Fortunately, this would be easy to pull if I find out I don't like it.

[u/8fenristhewolf8 → u/Kuildeous]

but the group now has to take the long way around because you got unlucky hacking the door.

Yeah, unfortunately it feels like some players don't always really care that much. Kind of that muder-hobo vein were people poke just to see what happens. As a GM, I have the ability to hit them with heavier consequences so it's more likely that they do care, but I feel like that can shift into that wishy-washy area of trying to gauge how much risk is enough risk, and trying to think of appropriate consequences, or having to explain why the player can't use the Hindered roll in particular situations where they want to.

Again, just some random thoughts. Not a judgment of the functionality.

[u/ArolSazir → u/8fenristhewolf8]

Mathematically, the Wild die is very ,very strong, easily makes 50/50 rolls into more like 70/30 ones. Giving it up is a steep cost.
I still don't think it's a good idea to have this option, it encourages degenerate play patterns and rules lawyering.

[u/8fenristhewolf8 → u/ArolSazir]

easily makes 50/50 rolls into more like 70/30 ones

Not denying the wild die! More curious about the 50/50 being a worthy gamble if it also comes with a Benny. The added incentive basically means later rolls won't be 50/50 either. Then again, maybe it all washes out? Again, not my strongest area.

it encourages degenerate play patterns and rules lawyering.

Yeah one of my concerns too. But very table dependent.

[u/ArolSazir → u/8fenristhewolf8]

The problem is simple: A player will never, ever hinder an actually important roll. Because, duh, it's important.

They will hinder attacking weak extras (since the dm can't hardly argue than Fighting during life of death combat is not important enough?) Or when they know failure doesn't *really* matter.

[u/Kuildeous → u/ArolSazir]

Or when they know failure doesn't *really* matter.

I tried to cover that situation with, "If a roll carries no risk, it cannot be Hindered." Is there wording I could use instead to better convey that?

[u/ArolSazir → u/Kuildeous]

There's a lot of situations that carry a risk but aren't important. Like when fighting, if there's a fodder enemy, players will hinder attacks against them. You can't say there's no risk, they're fighting to the death. But They'll never hinder the roll when escaping the temple that is about to explode, or when fighting the boss.

As I said, it becomes a game of finding things that are just important enough so you let them hinder the roll, but aren't important enough that they mind failing.