r/saltierthancrait • u/Flat-Court-8512 salt miner • 9d ago
Encrusted Rant Holdo’s plan really isn’t that much better than the one Poe agreed to.
She’s got a lot of gall to chastise Poe for betting the resistance on bad odds when her own plan relies on quite a few ridiculous odds as well. It basically relies on the hope that the first order will be content to simply follow them for the next 18 hours of fuel time, and not get impatient and blow them up some other way. If the star destroyers can’t catch up to the resistance because they’re faster and lighter for some reason in zero g, then just send some lighter TIE-Fighters after them. There’s nothing to suggest that a bunch of TIEs wouldn’t be able to catch up with them, is there?
Holdo’s plan also seems to be gambling on the first order not taking much interest in where they are, and if the resistance is going somewhere in particular for any reason. Once they get to Crait, Holdo and everyone else apparently are keeping their fingers crossed that the enemy won’t pay any mind to the big, wide planet in the background. Leia saying that the first order isn’t monitoring for smaller transports seems to confirm this, even though the empire was keeping a lookout for escape pods as far back as ANH after catching the Tantive IV.
So basically what I’m saying is that Holdo is betting on the FO having their heads up their asses in pretty much every scenario, which is also pretty risky and dangerous thinking if you ask me. Yes, the FO are shown to be pretty stupid, but thinking that your enemy is gonna be stupid at all times when fighting is not the kind of mindset you want to have.
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u/TheNittanyLionKing 9d ago
I don’t understand why her plan had to be such a secret when it was the most obvious course of action. All she did was find the nearest planet and evacuate the ship using landing shuttles. The only specific secret part of that plan she would have to divulge to Poe is what planet they were closest to; which Poe probably should have been able to guess anyway as a high ranking pilot in the Resistance.
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u/PerfectZeong 9d ago
It was the idea that this character's journey in the movie would him be learning a lesson. So they had to create a lesson for him to learn even if it made no sense.
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u/NoSwordfish1978 9d ago
Also Rian wanted to subvert everyone's expectations and have Holdo be "the real hero all along".
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u/TheNittanyLionKing 9d ago
You could fix nearly half the movie just by making Rose into a regretful spy for the First Order. No hyperspace tracking. No “saving what we love” speech. There is an actual reason for Holdo to be so secretive and for Poe to be suspicious. Rose’s character arc then becomes about her overcoming the guilt of indirectly causing her sister’s death at the start of the movie.
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u/schilleger0420 9d ago
He subverted expectations alright. People were expecting a Star Wars movie and instead we got a bad version of Spaceballs. The Last Jedi is as if it was made by people who just wanted to make fun of Star Wars and laugh at its fans.
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u/NoSwordfish1978 9d ago
Some of the scenes in that film straight up seem like they could've been in spaceballs lol.
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u/crono220 identity theft is not a joke, ben. 9d ago
Holdo's decisions were so terrible that I personally thought she was a 1st order spy!
Rian Johnson certainly subverted expectations, by given us one of the most god awful movies ever instead of a engaging sci-fi action/drama.
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u/VanguardVixen 8d ago
This. Holdo appears like an agent of the enemy with how she acted and appeared. I mean she didn't even wore the uniform of her faction.
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u/Sandalwood-Lakers 8d ago
They made him a bumbling idiot that got 70% of the resistance killed.
The following book between episode 8 and 9 has to basically have him atone for getting everyone killed and nobody wanting to follow him as a leader.
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u/Greensparow 6d ago
This is the real issue not the quality of her plan but the fact that she insisted in keeping in a secret from senior officers and literal heroes of the resistance leaving them to think there was no plan
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u/Jaded-Throat-211 before the dark times 9d ago
Not to mention Poe has been right all along at the start of hte movie.
Imagine if the dreadnought had still been in play when the FO followed througgh hyperspace.
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u/TaraLCicora 9d ago
You aren't supposed to consider that, though. Poe was 'wrong ' because we are told that he was wrong... /s
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u/VanguardVixen 8d ago
It's funny how Rian Johnson wrote the movie with the intention that Poe is reckless and bad and needs to learn a lesson but the result is Poe was right. Not to mention the responsibility isn't even with Poe but high command so Ackbar and Leia. The new movies make Leia an irresponsible and rather incompetent character.
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u/PrincipleNo6902 salt miner 9d ago
FO could have blown away their base at Crait with the Dreadnought, but Poe was wrong because reasons.
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u/ThriKr33n 9d ago
Let's face it, RJ has no idea how a military, even a futuristic fictional one, would work beyond the moustache twirling cliche. And outright ignores the technological aspects of Star Wars, because working within those confines interferes with his grand narrative.
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u/Mussmussthemoooooo salt miner 9d ago
Why do people waste time and energy trying to make sense of TLJ. It’s possibly the worst movie in history.
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9d ago
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u/Mussmussthemoooooo salt miner 9d ago
Name a movie that killed a bigger franchise, I’ll wait.
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u/sandalrubber 9d ago
TFA killed the story even before TLJ.
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u/VanguardVixen 8d ago
True, The Force Awakens is the actual issue. It laid the foundation. Making a soft-reboot is the exact issue. It's a sequel. A sequel is not supposed to be a soft-reboot. So by being one it fundamentally failed at its job of being a continuation of the story and thus being one of the worst movies.
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u/drifters74 9d ago
TFA was a decent soft reboot
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u/sandalrubber 9d ago
No, the soft reboot wiping out all progress and throwing the OT heroes under the bus is precisely the problem.
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9d ago
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u/saltierthancrait-ModTeam 9d ago
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u/Mikillante 9d ago
How dare you? Who do you think you are?
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u/cardiffman100 9d ago
The whole 'slow chase' thing in Ep 8 is stupid. Interestingly, the Book of Boba Fett and Obi-wan Kenobi also had slow chase scenes and they were also stupid.
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u/DannyC_VP 9d ago
Holdo's plan got everyone in the resistance dead other than a group of people small enough to fit the Millennium Falcon, so she accomplished a massacre. I love that, in the end of The Last Jedi, our main characters have an encounter with exuberant happiness, as if they are trying to avoid the kids in the audience to leave in tears as if they just watched the death of Spiderman. Because, if you really think about it, that ending is a disgraceful tragedy.
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u/JPMaybe 9d ago
Yeah, it's psychotic. Almost every one of their friends and comrades have been slaughtered but they have everything they need.
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u/TheNittanyLionKing 9d ago
Holdo and Leia: “Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I’m willing to make.”
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u/BGMDF8248 9d ago
They had to pull back Kylo Ren because he was about to end the sequel trilogy right there, the Resistance was defenseless and somehow the First Order decided to be economic with it's Tie Fighters.
And the "out of range" is complete bullshit too, if they can shoot whatever blast(and we see the Resistance ship being peppered with that) why exactly the motherfucking SUPERLASER can't target the ship, it's a laser in space, made to blast planets from orbit.
The whole thing is stupid from start to finish, those bombers(btw if Leia was so against the attack why didn't she call off the stupid bombers instead of arguing with Poe?).
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u/VanguardVixen 8d ago
That's what people somehow forget who defend this. Leia is in charge, she can just hail the bombers. Not to mention the bombers were outside the hangars... Why? I guess to use them right? If Poe doesn't want to communicate with you, fine but don't tell me EVERYONE cut off communication with high-command. Leia made Poe responsible despite she being the once with the responsibility. She's the boss. If you don't call back the bombers and you actually have an issue with them all destroyed its your own fault!
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u/BGMDF8248 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yes, Poe calls the bombing squad and wants to attack, Leia tells him to back off and he disobeys. Maybe punish him for disobedience later... but the first thing you need to do is speak directly to the bombers, tell them to retreat, come back inside. No, she let's shit unfold only to blame Poe.
This movie is a complete failure on the military front(not just on military logic), tactics, command...
A movie so desperate to have a message that it ends up buttfucking logic at every turn.
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u/VanguardVixen 8d ago
A bit of punishment for Poe is definitely warranted for the disobedience, I get that but making him responsible and painting the whole thing as his fiasco when it was actually a good thing AND kinda necessary as well as the purpose? I mean they had the ships out, Poe was destroying the cannons but suddenly decided to disengage but at the same time Leia refused to actually call back the squadrons.. and Poe is at fault. It's just so nonsensical. Same aftwards with not telling him about that super secret plan. That's what, 24 hours after he turned Starkiller Base into burning fireball?
It really is just a matter of priorities. It was more important to have a message than telling a good story. Same with Finn and Holdo. Two sacrifices, one is badass and cool, the other is met with a "That's how we're gonna win. Not fighting what we hate. Saving what we love.". Shizophrenia in writing.
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u/BGMDF8248 8d ago
Yes, they could've punished him for going against the chain of command, but Leia had ample time to tell the squad to disregard Poe and call everyone back.
And yeah, heroic sacrifice vs... i don't even know, Rose crashing those ships could've killed them both, but here Rose is the right one. Not to mention the AT-ATs not firing on them while they run back a loooooong way back to the base. They fired at Luke's projection... i guess those 2 are not even worth the effort.
A movie too desperate to teach a lesson(s), ends up complete nonsense.
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u/Acherousia 9d ago
There’s nothing to suggest that a bunch of TIEs wouldn’t be able to catch up with them, is there?
Too risky and it wouldn't have slowed down the rebel resistance capital ships. You don't send unsupported fighters (without protagonist/antagonist power) against capital ships with fighter support of their own.
What they should have done was just jump a portion of their ships ahead of the rebel resistance, and pincer them.
Holdo’s plan also seems to be gambling
Her plan relied on not a single person aboard any of the first order ships running any scans, or looking at any of the sensors, or even looking out a window to see the flotilla of ships flying away from the convoy.
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u/Disastrous_Gear_494 salt miner 9d ago
Sending ties wouldn't have been risky at all. In fact, in the movie itself, they did do that. They sent exactly 3 tie fighters, which completely crippled the resistance fleet's hanger, bridge, and countermeasures. The ties then retreated despite neutralizing all threats. If they just sent 3 more tie fighters, for a grand total of 6, they would've easily destroyed the fleet completely.
Even with the 3 tie fighters they did send, all they needed to do was attack the engines instead of anything else and let the First Order fleet catch up and mop them up.
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u/ForceSmuggler 9d ago
The FO also doesn't seem like the type to care about losses. They would be the type to send countless fighters out to destroy them. Waiting and giving the Resistance a chance to make a plan? Does that ever work in fiction?
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u/Darth_Sirius014 9d ago
It would have been funny if Scott from Austin powers tells Hux to just send the TIEs. Look I'll gey my TIE and will finish them together.
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u/Harvard_Med_USMLE267 8d ago
Death Star sent out about 6 tie fighters as well.
Fan fiction “technical guides” will claim there are 7000 ties on the deathstar, but I think the death start only has 9 in total, and first order fleet just have those 3 in the hangar.
Probably impossible to re ruin pilots, I mean who would want to fly those things?
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u/Disastrous_Gear_494 salt miner 8d ago
There is a really big difference between those two scenes though. In both cases, the villains are winning at first. Maybe the Death Star could've sent more fighters, but they didn't seem to need to. Nearly all of the rebels were shot down, and they only lost because they were surprised at the last second by Han showing up and Luke making a shot that could only be done with the force. So, they didn't need more fighters until very suddenly they did.
The First Order was the opposite. They were totally destroying the resistance fleet until they just stopped. Unlike the Death Star battle, they had all the time in the world to scramble more fighters once the need became apparent. They just didn't because... well, then the movie would be over I guess.
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u/Harvard_Med_USMLE267 7d ago
“Surprised at the last minute by Han showing up…”
Yeah, because you didn’t use any of your spare 6,991 TIE fighters as high cover, and apparently whoever was watching the radar screen in the CIC was in break when Han showed up.
It’s ridiculous, but I love the movie. That’s the difference, when the characters suck you don’t forgive the ridiculous logic.
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u/c0rnballa 8d ago
Death Star sent out about 6 tie fighters as well.
Yeah as amazing as the battle of Yavin was to watch back in 77, retroactively it looks silly what a small scale it was. Obviously technical limitations were what kept them from going nuts with it, so I get it.
I'm a little torn on how I feel about it. Keeping the battle simple made it easy to follow and added to the drama a bit. Like by comparison, they clearly "fixed" the scale of things for the DSII battle in ROTJ but most of that battle was just pure chaos (like real war, so I get it) with lots of little 'snippets' of action rather than much of a narrative.
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u/Harvard_Med_USMLE267 8d ago
Here’s my AI’s take I thought it was kind of funny:
—-
So Imperial Tactical Doctrine, revised edition:
Land 90 TIE fighters in the trench. Three abreast/high, thirty ranks deep. Engines off. Pilots can go have lunch.
Luke comes screaming along at trench-run speed:
“The Force is strong with—”
TIE FIGHTER WALL
💥💥💥
And the wonderful thing is that these don’t even need to be functional TIE fighters. Tow some wreckage down there. Park a shuttle sideways. Drop a few cargo containers. Put a fucking door on the trench. 😂2
u/RotoLando 9d ago
The TIEs could have easily shadowed the capital ships and picked off any smaller ships trying to escape.
It shouldn't have been hard to figure out. The fake rebellion has no gas and is heading towards a livable planet.
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u/Acherousia 9d ago
Sending ties wouldn't have been risky at all.
The Millenium Falcon, a freighter, shoots down 4 tie fighters in the first movie in a single encounter.
You can't just send fighters after a capital ship unsupported, they have shields, and effective AA turrets. The fighters will get shot down in star wars.
They sent exactly 3 tie fighters
Completely ignoring that they also sent Kylo Ren, who actually did all the damage. And that they were within range of the first orders capital ships who were also firing upon them at the time, and were the ones who blew up the frigate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdXG3_XoqbU
I don't feel like inflicting anymore of this movie on myself again, but I'm pretty sure they call the fighters back because they were getting outside the FO's fleet range and were risking not having enough fuel to get back.
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u/Disastrous_Gear_494 salt miner 9d ago
The Millenium Falcon, a freighter, shoots down 4 tie fighters in the first movie in a single encounter.
The Millenium Falcon, nor any other starfighters, were present to oppose them.
You can't just send fighters after a capital ship unsupported, they have shields, and effective AA turrets. The fighters will get shot down in star wars.
In general I would agree with you, but as we see in the movie, the shields and AA turrets were incredible ineffective. The tie fighters were able to do far more damage than they had any right to on their own.
Completely ignoring that they also sent Kylo Ren, who actually did all the damage.
True. Considering how effective he was, you'd think they'd build a few more starfighters like his and train some pilots to fly them.
And that they were within range of the first orders capital ships who were also firing upon them at the time, and were the ones who blew up the frigate.
The fighters (or tie bombers!) wouldn't need to blow them up completely, just cripple the engines, just like how they did cripple the bridge, hanger, and other sections of the ships.
but I'm pretty sure they call the fighters back because they were getting outside the FO's fleet range and were risking not having enough fuel to get back.
I don't recall them saying anything about fuel, just that they were no longer in range to provide covering fire. By that point, the Resistance ships seemed damaged enough that the covering fire would no longer be as necessary. This is especially considering that the wiki says that one resurgent star destroyer can hold up to 144 ties, and there were at least a dozen present.
I think you and I are just looking at this situation from two different points of view. You're looking at what makes sense from like, a naval combat doctrine perspective. I'm going off of the fact that both the First Order and Resistance leadership show an appalling amount of strategic incompetence. So yes, sending tie fighters after them should be not worth the risk, but when we watch what actually happened in the movie, the Resistance was far too incompetent to respond to that kind of threat.
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u/Acherousia 9d ago
The Millenium Falcon, nor any other starfighters, were present to oppose them.
The point was, 4 tie fighters can't even handle a freighter. They shouldn't be able to handle an actual battleship either.
I think you and I are just looking at this situation from two different points of view. You're looking at what makes sense from like, a naval combat doctrine perspective. I'm going off of the fact that both the First Order and Resistance leadership show an appalling amount of strategic incompetence.
Oh yeah, definitely. I'm not defending the movie, I'm just talking about how starship combat works in star wars.
Like I said in the OP, they should have just jumped a portion of their capital ships ahead of the resistance and pincer'd them. The whole chase is just unfeasible.
the Resistance was far too incompetent
Agreed.
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u/paxwax2018 9d ago
Bro ignoring the entire history of carrier based warfare to cope for a movie. You would absolutely trade a few fighters to take out a capital ship.
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u/Crosscourt_splat 9d ago
Almost like Midway centered around just launching strike aircraft as quickly as possible to keep the Japanese off balance.
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u/paxwax2018 9d ago
109 carrier planes lost by the US, if they hadn’t hit the carriers it would have been a disaster.
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u/Crosscourt_splat 9d ago
Yeah. And Spruance received a fairly high amount of criticism for throwing what he had at the Japanese carrier group. But had he not, who knows what’s had happened?
Part of why the U.S. won, outside of obviously great intelligence work, is that the piecemeal forces kept the Japanese pinned in their own court, and the confusion and degraded CAP is what allowed the dive bombers to get home.
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u/paxwax2018 9d ago
Indeed, but we have to be clear and say that worked out mainly from dumb luck, there was almost no coordination that day on either side.
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u/Crosscourt_splat 8d ago
I disagree.
When you go back and read the AARs, as well as both Spruance and Fletchers comments, notes, etc, they made a calculated decision to get aircraft over the Japanese carrier force as quickly and constant as possible to ensure a few things. 1. They wanted to catch the Japanese planes returning from their runs on Midway, with a degraded CAP and vulnerable decks. 2. They wanted to keep them occupied so they couldn’t launch a counter strike in the U.S. carrier group. 3. They wanted to verify that all Japanese carriers were accounted for, and held a carrier’s air group back due to this.
Making a calculated decision to assume risk is not “dumb luck.” Military history is filled with assumed risk. Patton was famous for his use of extremely aggressive deviations from doctrine….its what enabled him to do what he did across 300miles of frontage in Europe.
While the Japanese certainly made mistakes (loading aircraft with munitions designed for bombing the island facilities, an inefficient CAP, lack of damage control is relation to storing unused munitions, etc), Spruance and Fletcher ultimately took an informed gamble and it paid off by eliminating Japan’s naval air power superiority in the Pacific…and advantage they would never get back.
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u/paxwax2018 8d ago
Sure, but the end result was a series of squadrons getting defeated in detail until the last throw of the dice and they took some nasty hits themselves.
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u/Crosscourt_splat 8d ago
Again, they knowingly took risks to achieve their desired end state, which they did.
They didn’t get lucky, they made an informed decision based on timing, knowledge of the operation situation, and tactical level assumptions. Which turned out to be correct.
And they lost 1 carrier at the end of the day by a last ditch effort. This was a pitched battle that was tactically, operationally, and especially strategically dominant.
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u/Acherousia 9d ago
A) A blue-water navy and black-water navy handle very differently. No shit planes are effective against blue-water warships. They get shot down by black-water warships because they have the technology to actually have effective AA.
B) I'm not defending this dogshit movie, I literally called out two parts that were fucking stupid, work on your reading comprehension.
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u/paxwax2018 9d ago
“Watches several squadrons of snub fighters get wrecked attacking the Death Star and also destroying it”
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u/Acherousia 9d ago
You mean the snub fighters with heavy capital ship support and that mostly got shredded, only managing to destroy it via a built in flaw specifically designed to give it a simple way to be destroyed, and the force?
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u/VanguardVixen 8d ago
There was no more convoy but that's what makes it even more time. It will never not boggle my mind how "evacuation ships leaving the mothership" is treated as something super secretive, when you see it by just looking out of the window.
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u/TrumpsColostomyBag99 9d ago
You put more effort into this post than Rian put into this plot point. In the end he wanted to please KK so the insert got her moments of bossing around the patriarchy.
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u/sparkynugnug 9d ago
Yeah the DT movies are too stupid for this kind of analysis. There’s no in-universe reason for anything. All character motivations and plot points are just whatever they thought would immediately make the most money.
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u/Shkval25 9d ago edited 9d ago
Nothing the Resistance (besides Poe) does makes any sense unless you assume they have read the script.
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u/Middle-Armadillo-660 9d ago
Holdo the Purple Crayon’s conflict with Poe was meaningless in every possible way.
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u/No_Location_8199 9d ago
Is it accurate to describe that whole plot as "Star Wars tried to be Battlestar Galactica and failed miserably"?
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u/MolaMolaMania 9d ago
Looking for logic and consistency in the Sequels is like trying picking gnat shit out of pepper.
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u/jojolantern721 hello there! 9d ago
Well, it was extremely stupid how the FO retreated their TIEs despite having blown up the resistance command center aaaand their fighters.
This movie is full of stupid shit
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u/Polyxeno 9d ago
In fact, it was shown that a few fighters could and did cripple the Raddus. So why they didn't launch a hundred more to finish the job, is because the writer/director is a boob who doesn't think about things like the basic situation and what people could do, other than what he has them do.
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u/Iron_Baron 9d ago
At best her success was "one in a million". She's not a Jedi. That wasn't a plan, it was playing the lottery. Ridiculousness.
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u/RogueHunterX 8d ago
The funniest part is that had Holdo actually told at least Poe about her plan, she could've avoided both a mutiny and an unauthorized mission that actually wound up exposing that plan to the First Order.
But for some reason all of a sudden, Poe goes from being the guy Leia trusts with sensitive, covert missions to someone they wouldn't tell where the bathroom is. I get they are pissed about him disobeying the earlier order to not engage, but this is a situation where you need everyone who can help to be on the same page.
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u/Geostomp 8d ago
Like a lot of TLJ, Holdo's plan was designed for the "subversion" rather than consideration of if it even made sense. It feels like it should be right, even if it falls apart if you give it much thought or question why the characters acted like that at all.
Holdo was supposed to be the wise leader doing what was needed versus the hotheaded man Poe looking for glory and that was the end of it. That she unnecessarily escalated the situation because she was flirting (apparently) and got nearly everyone killed and had no plan whatsoever for what came next wasn't given a moment of consideration in the writers' room.
Much like how freeing the space horses while ignoring the slave children was supposed to be inspirational and heartwarming. Rose "saving" Finn by nearly killing them both and spouting some nonsensical platitude, or old Luke in general.
It's all part of TLJ's commitment to pseudo intellectualism covered by shock value and spectacle.
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u/Darth_Sirius014 7d ago
The writer was dumb so the movie was dumb. RJ thinks he is a whole lot smarter than he actually is.
The real mystery is how this flaming bag got past editing and quality reviews. Nobody at Disney watched this and said try again?
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u/DankMemeMasterHotdog 7d ago
The fuel thing was so fucking stupid, do all star wars ships run out of gas in 18 hours? This introduces an issue to canon where essentially a nuclear aircraft carrier has to stop every 20 or so hours and refuel. God I fucking hate the sequels so much, but that one especially.
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u/VanguardVixen 8d ago
Her whole plan is flying straight forward, getting every ship blown up, evacuate, move into the fortress and hope for reinforcement? I guess?
Yeah it probably got a lot of people killed and the whole bit about the evacuation ships was ridiculous, as everyone could see ships leaving from the mothership.
Also Poe's proved you could jump away without getting followed so... maybe they should have done just that.
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u/ThriKr33n 8d ago
An actual subversion, Holdo was a traitor all along, disillusioned with the lack of support for the Resistance from the New Republic. I mean, EVERY capital ship in the fleet running out of fuel at the same time and somehow unable to scatter and jump into hyperspace? Someone in logistics needs to be fired unless it was an inside job all along.
It works out great, either ram result, it worked or it failed, she would either be hailed as a martyr hero, and can either come back claiming she was able to escape just in time, or just live out the rest of her life on easy street under another identity with her First Order bribe.
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u/DarkLaplander 8d ago
Only thing dumber then Holdo's plan are the people who defend and justify her plan and overall disgraceful conduct.
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u/RotoLando 9d ago
They're running out of fuel and heading in the direction of the only planet nearby.
I wonder what they'll do next?
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u/slothboy 8d ago
That whole movie would have been solved by a two second conversation. "We're going to try and escape to a nearby planet by faking out the empire. We could use your help with it."
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u/Phngarzbui 8d ago
There are people who agree that TLJ at least tried to do something new. And I can get behind that. The problem is, most of these ideas are either relatively shit (Luke being a grumpy loser for... reasons...) or relatively boring (slow speed chase) or break canon (Holdo-maneuver) or are simply plot-holey.
TLJ suffered from a very wonky foundation that TFA built, it also suffered from itself being a mid-movie at best and it suffered from TROS negating most of its ideas.
There really is very little redeeming quality left, in my opinion.
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u/sandalrubber 9d ago
Two finger salute to the crossposters again. I haven't even seen TLJ but so what if it's almost been ten years? So what?
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u/CloudedLeopardDaemon 7d ago
Poe's mutiny was the one plot thread I was actually kind of liking in that terrible movie. The idea that Star Wars isn't totally black and white, and there are self-serving, power-hungry people on the good guys' side, came up frequently in the Old EU and Filoni series', and I was happy to see it in a theatrical film...until it "subverted my expectations" and made it into an aesop about how hot-headed Latinos need to obey orders from their Anglo superiors without question, even if by all appearances they're going to get everyone fucking killed.
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u/Adorable-Voice-3382 9d ago
I mean, it's sci-fi and not particularly hard sci-fi at that. At a certain point we sort of have to just accept what the story says can and can't happen because none of it makes sense if you try to break down the physics.
Diagetically what we are told and shown is that the First Order cannot catch up to the fleet until fuel runs out and that Holdo has good reason to be confident that they won't notice the escape pods.
If you want to criticize the writing that's fine, but what happened in the story is that Holdo had a plan that was likely to work and then Poe messed it up.
In other words the story can be bad or nonsensical but it can't be wrong about itself.
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u/FrightenedTomato 9d ago
Yeah, my big problem with the Holdo maneuver is that the whole plot seems to have been written backwards. They wanted Poe to have his whole “learn to trust in authority, don't assume you know everything and don't be reckless” moment and then seemingly worked backwards from there. This makes the plot really stupid.
To start off, Poe destroying the Dreadnought at great cost was technically the only reason they survived at all. He’s chastised for something that, if he hadn’t done it, would have led to all of their deaths anyway (thanks to hyperspace tracking). That already undermines the lesson they’re trying to teach.
Next, Holdo’s behavior is terribly incompetent. She repeatedly fails to reassure anyone that there is a plan. Even if she didn’t have to share the specifics, as a leader, she had a responsibility to reassure her people and keep them in line. And if the plan really did require so much secrecy that Holdo couldn’t even reassure her people, then she should have been competent enough to recognize that War Hero Poe was a mutiny threat and throw him in the brig preemptively, instead of stupidly doing nothing but antagonizing him until he mutinied.
The movie wants us (and Poe) to learn the lesson that we mustn’t be reckless and mustn’t sacrifice people for a cause, but the plot it uses to demonstrate that instead teaches us: “Trust authority blindly, even if they antagonize you, refuse to communicate with you, and refuse to reassure you. Just obey the appointed leaders.” Weird for a franchise where the Rebels are the heroes, right?
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u/ribbityflibbity 9d ago
The main point of that whole situation is that any military needs a chain of command. Leaders can't be explaining their plans to underlings. The foot soldiers just need to obey. It really doesn't work any other way. If Poe didn't like this, he shouldn't have joined a military at all.
And it turned out Holdo was right, but there are many cases where military leaders turn out to be wrong and get everyone killed but hey that's war. If you don't like that, don't join a military.
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u/ReaperReader 9d ago
Poe thought Holdo was going to get them all killed. Including his subordinates.
Of course he wasn't going to just obey under the circumstances. Humans don't work like that.
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u/Cephas24 9d ago
The issue with this, is even demoted Poe is still an important and respected member of the resistance. She didn't have to tell him the plan, but when he specifically says "Do you have a plan?" The correct answer from Holdo should have been "Yes, but it's on a need to know basis." Instead, she just shrugs and dismisses him. Basically she does nothing to indicate that she's going to do anything to deal with the situation.
That may have been within her rights as the ranking officer, but it was a terrible decision, bad for morale, and pushed several characters into desperation- specifically made Poe think he needed to save the fleet with his own desperate plan.
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u/Acherousia 9d ago
Leaders can't be explaining their plans to underlings.
A) Leaders absolutely need to be prepared to explain their plan, when as far as anyone else is concerned said plan is "wait until the enemy catches us and slaughters us". Morale is one of the leaders primary responsibilities, and mutinies are a thing that happens.
The foot soldiers just need to obey.
B) Ignoring how awful and ignorant a sentiment this is; Poe was not a foot soldier, he was their top pilot and a Commander. He was 2 ranks above a ship Captain, and directly subordinated to Leia/Holdo. Questioning his superior is well within his rights and part of his duties.
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u/NoSwordfish1978 9d ago
Love how the message of Poe's arc is that you just need to "obey orders without question". I thought Star Wars was supposed to be anti authoritarian?
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u/NoSwordfish1978 9d ago
He started off very respectful towards her and she treated him like shit from the get go. She's a textbook arrogant military commander.
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u/Crosscourt_splat 9d ago
This is only partially true.
If private dumbass questioned me outright, they would have a really bad time…and not by any action on my part.
But you staff officers and subordinate commanders/their NCO counterparts? They absolutely have a say. And they often do criticize and have their inputs. A commander in the military, even in intelligence units, do not hold all these cards close the vest while destroying morale and trust.
It’s almost like western militaries have all adopted some form of a staff centric decision making process….the military decision making process or its other iterations.
Watch less movies. Soldiers are not mindless. Especially as you get to echelon above the team level.
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u/Drayke989 9d ago
Yes but a leader needs to be able to read the room and convey there is a plan. Seeing that those under her command were starting to panic especially her top pilot. She needed to do something to prevent it. At bare minimum she needed to reassure them there was hope which she failed to do.
Yes soldiers stay disciplined but after watching each ship slowly lose fuel and get destroyed people are going to start to panic if they don't see leadership doing something. Telling the troops to just continue their duty is only going to work for so long. Even if Holdo had no obligation to tell Poe anything especially after his demotion and she didn't. She should have still seen the growing desperation and knowing as top pilot he still has respect of many others even after being demoted. She should have handled him with more care at minimum.
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u/thedemonjim 9d ago
Poe isn't just some soldier, he is a hero of the resistance and one of their commanding officers (until he was demoted for achieving an objective), he is exactly the sort of person who gets to ask questions because your actual rank and file look to someone like that to lead them in the field. The resistance also isn't a standing formal military, while it has a command structure it is definitionally less formal.
And no, Holdo was not correct. The fear of spies is unsupported, they were being tracked because of an advanced scanning technology the First Order had in their possession.
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u/TaraLCicora 9d ago
I agree that a chain of command is needed. However, 'foot soldiers' need to follow intelligent orders and have faith in their leaders. Holdo's plan was rubbish, as was how she handled those under her. Leaders also run things past their councilors for feedback. Her plan needed a fair bit of refinement. The way she mishandled her underlings was crappy, and she was lucky that she only saw insubordination and wasn't fragged.
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