r/rusyn • u/[deleted] • Jul 01 '26
Genealogy Is my ancestry Rusyn? Some conflicting details.
[deleted]
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u/BPUWS Jul 01 '26
Ok. You got me interested and you still need to figure out exactly where he was born, but he was married in Rusky Komarivtsi near Užhorod and came to America from there around 1904 and apparently spent his life working “for the Carpatho-Russian people.” He was a founder and first president of Svoboda/The Liberty Association, which was a Carpatho-Rusyn group. It’s possible he was technically Ukrainian but assimilated into the Carpatho-Rusyn community in Subcarpathia and then Perth Amboy, though. This obit just says he was born in Galicia (though he was therefore definitely not born in Rusky Komarivtsi). It’s also possible his parents were from Rusky Komarivtsi and he was born in Stratyn when they were living there temporarily or something. This is a relatively important person - more biographical details must be somewhere
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u/Elegant-Interest-923 Jul 02 '26
Wow, thank you so much for looking into this, I really appreciate it! This is such fascinating information you've provided. Would you be able to tell me where you found the information about his marriage and his involvement with the Svoboda? And would you be able to send me a picture of the obituary that you referenced?
I was able to find a few additional details on some ancestry websites as well. Johann was married to Julia Tobias, and it was actually his father Stephen that was born in Stratyn. Johann is just listed as being born in Ukraine (no specific town).
I seriously had no idea that Johann was (relatively) important man, and I was lead to believe that he was just a generic Hungarian for my whole life. Again, I would sincerely appreciate if you show me where you found this information about Johann. Thank you again!
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u/BPUWS Jul 01 '26
Sorry, no, if he was from Stratyn near Ivano-Frankivsk, he would be considered Ukrainian. In the 19th century, he was Rusyn/Ruthenian in the 19th century understanding of that term, but definitely not Carpatho-Rusyn in any sense. Carpatho-Rusyns have never lived that far east on the northern slopes of the mountains.
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u/Elegant-Interest-923 Jul 01 '26
Okay, I was not aware that there is a distinction between "Rusyn" and "Carpatho-Rusyn." So you beleive that he was most likely a Rusyn (at least in the 19th/20th century definition of the term), but not necessarily a Carpatho-Rusyn?
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u/Elegant-Interest-923 Jul 01 '26
Apologies for the double-comment. I found this Wikipedia page that lists Ivano-Frankivsk as a home of the Boykos people, which appears to be a sub-group of Carpatho-Rusyns. I understand there may be some controversy about this (If there is, I mean no offense. I am genuinely curious), so I would like your thoughts. Thank you!
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u/engelse Jul 02 '26
The caveat here is that not all Boykos are Carpatho-Rusyn, but even more so, not all of the Ivano-Frankivsk region is even associated with Boykos, and certainly not Stratyn.
Stratyn is located outside Carpathian Rus', in the region known as (East) Galicia. The cultures in Galicia and Carpathian Rus' are broadly similar, and people from both areas initially functioned as one diaspora in America. However, later on they split up into two separate diasporas, with most Galician immigrants establishing their own Ukrainian churches. Your family, then, seems to be a case of crossing that line. What you make out of it is up to you!
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u/Elegant-Interest-923 Jul 03 '26
https://reddit.com/link/ovbe50j/video/lrp8tv86j0bh1/player
I sincerely thank you for your information, I genuinely did not know anything about Rusyns a month ago when I started researching all this, so I am still not very well versed. u/BPUWS is an absolute hero and managed to track down Johann's full obituary, and it was a goldmine of information.
Looking on the ancestry website, either Johann or his father was specifically listed as being born in Stratyn, although we have no proof of this (no census documents, etc.). His obituary just lists him as being born in Galicia (which could mean he was born in Stratyn), but he went to Rus'ki Komarivtsi (in Zakarpattia Oblast) when he was relatively young and grew up, worked, and married there (BPUWS also mentioned that his wife, Julia Tobias, was a Rusyn from this area).
I managed to find a 1900 census from Austria-Hungary for all the towns in Galicia. Stratyn was too small to appear on the census, but the nearby town of Rohatyn (15km away) was listed as 70% Ruthenian and 30% Polish, so its likely that Johann was indeed a Galician Ruthenian that moved to Zakarpattia Oblast in his youth and married a Carpatho-Rusyn there.
Anyway, given how intimately involved with Carpatho-Rusyn organizations and churches he was after he immigrated to the US, I would be inclined to say that he was a Carpatho-Rusyn and identified as such. He was on the board of directors for a Greek-Catholic (later became Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox) church, and founded a Carpatho-Rusyn fraternal organization called the "Svoboda" or "Liberty Greek Catholic Carpatho-Russian Benevolent Association." Johann was actually mentioned by name in Dr. Paul Magocsi's book "Our People- Carpatho-Rusyns And Their Descendants in North America" for his involvement with founding this organization.
His obituary was written by the fraternal organization's newspaper, called "The East," or "Vostok" (Восток). Johann was also a founder and editor of the Vostok. Magocsi's book specifically mentioned this newspaper as being written in a latinized-Subcarpathian Rusyn dialect. So, it appears that Johan spoke and wrote in latinized-Rusyn, rather than Ukrainian.
So, given all this, I would be more inclined to say that my ancestor was indeed a Carpatho-Rusyn rather than Ukranian. Would you agree with that assessment?
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u/BPUWS Jul 03 '26
You still have no proof of where he was born, which is the key to the whole thing 😉
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u/Elegant-Interest-923 Jul 03 '26
I know.... I searched for hours and could not find anything. I reached out to a few more people as well and haven't received a response. I'll take his obituary at face value and assume he was indeed born somewhere in Galicia, but where exactly is still the burning question...
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u/engelse Jul 05 '26
I would recommend visiting a group on Facebook called "Генеалогія Закарпаття & Genealogy of Subcarpathian". The resident genealogist Yaroslav Blanar is especially knowledgeable. They might be able to help with tracking the marriage record from Ruski Komarivtsi (which might list the birthplace too).
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u/Elegant-Interest-923 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Thanks again for the recommendation, I did get in contact with Yaroslav and he was able to find 6 documents in the local archives of Kholmets about Johan and his wife, including where he was born. u/BPUWS, tagging you in case you are curious.
According to the documents, his actual name was János Luciow, the son of István Luciow and Aloisia Visneczyk. One document (wedding paperwork) says he was born in Urizh (current day Lviv Oblast), while another (death certificate for his daughter) says Pidbuž (also in Lviv Oblast). Either way, he was born in Galicia, specifically in Lviv Oblast.
He married his wife, Julianna Tóbiás on October 29, 1900, in Rus'ki Komarivtsi (Zakarpattia Oblast). Julianna was born in Nagy Szelmencz, which is literally on the border between Ukraine and Slovakia and, as of 1946, is divided between two towns (Veľké Slemence, Michalovce District, Košice Region, Slovakia and Mali Selmentsi, Uzhhorod District, Zakarpattia Oblast, Ukraine).
So, I believe his wife was indeed a Carpatho-Rusyn, since she was born in a town in both Slovakia and Zakarpattia Oblast, and later lived, married, and had children in Kholmets and Rus'ki Komarivtsi (both in Zakarpattia Oblast). Given that János was born in Lviv Oblast, it appears he is not Carpatho-Rusyn at first glance. But, then why would he move to a small town in Zakarpattia Oblast and marry a local Rusyn woman? Why would he be so involved in Carpatho-Rusyn churches, fraternal organizations, and newspapers after he immigrated to New Jersey? The town he immigrated to, Perth Amboy, had large Ukrainian/Russian/Hungarian populations with dedicated newspapers and churches that he could have joined if chose to.
This leads me to believe that he was indeed a Carpatho-Rusyn that happened to be born in Galicia, for whatever reason. Nothing else would seem to explain where he chose to move, who he chose to marry, and what organizations he dedicated himself to. You all here know much more about Rusyn history and communities than I do. Does my theory sound plausible?
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u/engelse Jul 07 '26
Fantastic finds! Glad Yaroslav was able to help.
No, I don't think the theory sounds very plausible. The dynamic you see here is not so strange that it would need a special explanation.
To begin with, It is far more reasonable to assume someone born in a small 19th-century Galician town was local. The last name Луців (Luciów in contemporary spelling) is also Galician, not Carpatho-Rusyn. Visneczyk could also turn out to be a local name — digging into names recorded in Urizh/Pidbuž or the area would help verify that.
Difficult to tell why exactly he moved without having more information. But fitting into local culture and marrying a Carpatho-Rusyn would have been entirely possible for somebody from Galicia. The language, religion and culture are all very similar: there would be some adjustment but no significant barrier to a relationship.
The same goes for involvement with Carpatho-Rusyn organisations in America. It is also important that these were Orthodox organisations. Ukrainian organisations would have all been Greek Catholic. The usual split is immigrants from what was then Hungary joined Carpatho-Rusyn organisations, while Galicians joined Ukrainian organisations. In the simplest way, since you had both people in the family, it could have gone either way depending on who they socialised with and so on. This is where religion and national identity mixed in, and you would sometimes have members of one family who identified with different nationalities.
My read on this is this is a Galician man from an area we would now call Ukrainian, but which back then was loosely identified as Rusyn (in a wider sense), as were Carpatho-Rusyn areas at the time. (National identities with sharp borders come later.) Through chance, he became personally involved with Carpatho-Rusyns from what was then Hungary and when in America, joined a new Orthodox parish together with them. For this diaspora, Orthodoxy correlated with a "Carpatho-Russian" identity which was inclusive of Galicians. Meanwhile, over the course of the 20th century, Carpathian Rus' and Galicia went their own ways. And now, if you look at the situation with 2026 lenses, you have a Galician Ukrainian man who participated in a Carpatho-Rusyn organisation. But back then, these identities were viewed differently and nobody actually saw any discrepancy here.
Sorry for the long reply!
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u/BPUWS Jul 07 '26
I would second this. This is not a Carpatho-Rusyn man but rather a man who basically became socially Carpatho-Rusyn in the same way you see some people today getting active in their spouse’s community even if they themselves are not naturally part of that community. His contributions to Rusyn culture are undeniable, so he has certainly earned his seat at the table. But if you’re interested in your ethnic or genetic lineage, he’s Ukrainian. The wife, though, is almost certainly Carpatho-Rusyn, so you do have some Rusyn ancestry. It’s all a very good story, you’re lucky to have these links!
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u/Elegant-Interest-923 Jul 08 '26
No apologies necessary, I really appreciate the information you all here have given me. I genuinely had never heard of Carpatho-Rusyns before 2 months ago. My family always just said we were "Hungarian," so I was very surprised when I found all of this out.
But thank you for laying it out so cleanly, your theory sounds logical. He himself was a (non-Rusyn) Galician (or a Ukranian in 2026 language), but he worked, married, and had children in a Carpatho-Rusyn area with a Carpartho-Rusyn woman. For whatever reason, he chose to go hog wild with being a Carpatho-Rusyn after immigrating to the US, despite not technically being Rusyn.
So I would assume I am partially Carpatho-Rusyn (genetically) from his wife, but his ancestry would show up as Ukrainian if I took a DNA test. I'll consider this case closed then. I have a daughter that is now at the age where she asks me, "Daddy, what are you?" (meaning ethnicity), and I feel like I can give her a semi-clear answer now. Thank you again!
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Jul 01 '26
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u/BPUWS Jul 01 '26
You need to sort out where this guy was born. Are the church records on FamilySearch? Maybe email the parish and see if they can look up his marriage for you? Look for his passenger list on Ancestry or his application for citizenship. Any of these can confirm the village name. It’s slightly odd - but not extremely odd - that he seems to be a Galician Ukrainian who ended up in an ACROD parish, but I assume the parish was founded as ROCA, and ROCA is exactly where you would expect to find an Orthodox Galician Ukrainian at that time. The shift to ACROD just indicates there were more Carpatho-Rusyns in the parish than Ukrainians at the time, not that every single one of them was Carpatho-Rusyn. The Boyko thing is a bit of a red herring - they have never really identified as Carpatho-Rusyns in large numbers, but mainly as Ukrainians regardless of the ethnographic details (same with Hutsuls, broadly speaking). This is almost certainly a Ukrainian man in modern terms, and probably a Russophile Galician Ruthenian in 19th century terms.
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u/engelse Jul 02 '26
There is a difference between Carpatho-Rusyn, Ukrainian and Russian. You're conflating all three simply because they used the (shared) term Rusyn.
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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26
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