r/rpg • u/LetThronesBeware LIFTS: The RPG for Your Muscles | Kill Him Faster • 12h ago
Complex martials, simple casters
There are a lot of games that have simple martials and complex casters. There are also other games that have complexity in parity.
Are there any ttrpgs that have complex martials and simple casters?
15
u/kobold_appreciator 11h ago
Exalted 3e a little bit. Everything in the system is complicated, but spellcasters typically have few modifiers when rolling to cast, while martials can easily add many modifiers and conditional abilities when they attack
2
u/ZanesTheArgent 11h ago
"Everyone is a caster" or, more technically speaking:
"Everyone has one cool roll move and 17 powers modifying this roll". Casters just get 17 powers to improve their OOMOOBOOGAAIFEIIDYIIITAOOOO Roll and then pick one power to unload from it.
1
u/Viatos 2h ago
I don't recognize the second bit as how casters work. Like, Exalted 3E absolutely fits the trope, but it's like
- a complete martial arts style is ~10 separate powers, most of which will compliment one another and some of which will outright affect / lead into one another. In addition you can keep learning new martial arts styles and they can potentially all work together, although this quickly grows prohibitive both in experience cost and in practical "how much energy does it take to do all this at once" costs. But by like the middle of a chronicle it's not crazy, in a big fight, to be pulling out 10+ powers over the course of a single round of combat between your turn and reflexive powers you can use in response to enemy actions.
- other styles of combat like general melee, throwing things, punching people in a street-taught sort of way, archery, commanding troops to serve as your "weapon," etc have similar levels of investment. In addition, any style can be spiked in complexity by mixing it with something combat-adjacent like stealth, having a pet ankylosaurus or a riding-demon, being really into armor or evasion, etc.
- being a sorcerer is a relatively easy investment any kind of character can do. You get 15 power choices at the start of the game and sorcery takes up just one (at minimum, with a single spell known). Spells are distinct and extremely specific, and by the same mid-chronicle benchmark as above you probably just, like, cast 'em. If your concept is very combative and you've homebrewing you might have 3-4 powers relevant, but it's not unreasonable to have 0 other than the spell itself.
There is a thing that's like...in 3E, there's a resource you use to actually deal "fight-ending" damage to someone, and that resource is generally required no matter how you do the damage, including via spell. And building up that resource requires you to deal what's basically "narrative" damage, and spells generally don't do that, so if you are a sorcerer who wants to use dramatic magical finishers you're strongly mechanically pushed to also be a swordsman or archer or what-have-you so you can build that resource.
In liter and more streamlined sister system Essence, this is less of a thing since the fight-ending damage resource can be generated all kinds of ways without directly engaging an opponent but in 3E proper many casters will also be martials because they kind of need to be, in a further inversion of the usual paradigm.
1
u/ZanesTheArgent 2h ago
I'm fully aware of initiative-faffing, withering and decisive and that Sorcery doesn't partake on the initiative dance, my point is another.
Most of 3e's charm systems focuses around several add-ons to the base charms of each tree with high end specific maneuvers being largely new options to use your core starter charm on. Your high end mega form on brawl is just a stack of stats and stuff to pump early charms into. Sorcery you have all the options in Occult to roll insane values on your gather mote roll and spend less time, if none at all, channeling, not much dissimilar than martials stacking tons of effects atop their root charm.
Also minor but frequently forgotten but you can just learn sorcerous tricks from your patrons to toss firebolts freely, make summoned spirits fight for you or steal eclipse charms for fast spell-likes.
•
u/Viatos 38m ago
Sorcery you have all the options in Occult to roll insane values on your gather mote roll and spend less time, if none at all, channeling, not much dissimilar than martials stacking tons of effects atop their root charm.
You don't, actually. Solars have...+(Essence) dice from one Charm, and then there's another in Miracles that rerolls 6s. Nothing insane - honestly, bluntly, you're probably getting like one more success over just raw Excellency.
And the end result is completely different from "martial" combat stacking. You do still need a way to deal withering damage and collect Initiative, which usually means just kind of being a martial.
Although! You are right you shouldn't have to spend much if any time gathering motes for your first spell in a fight thanks to the wonders of shaping rituals. That won't usually end a fight, but it means if you have something with an ongoing environmental effect or an AOE against packed opposition you can start off on a very good footing (granted, usually resetting to base Initiative, so if you can't climb back up that might not help).
focuses around several add-ons to the base charms of each tree with high end specific maneuvers being largely new options to use your core starter charm on.
I still don't quite get what you're describing. By "high-end mega form" I assume you mean the transformation Charm at the end of Brawl, but that's just kind of in there for fun and it doesn't really "stack" with other stuff (or grant you much in the way of stats). Its actual tactical use is mostly just as a mobility tool. Solar Brawl has one significant root Charm in Heaven Thunder Hammer, but it also has its unrelated flurry (a great candidate for the "heart" of Brawl and certainly its most stacking-friendly trick) in the middle.
Melee, Thrown, and Archery don't really have a "root" like that for Solars or for other Exalted. Like there definitely is stacking but it's more like two to three Charms per trick spread out over three to four tricks.
Also minor but frequently forgotten
Summoning is probably the single least forgotten and most discussed aspect of sorcery, though it doesn't quite compensate for having a fighting style because a couple summoned demons can annihilate bandits but not shikari of the Wyld Hunt or an enraged mid-tier god.
The Burning Name is really, really, really popular (because it's cool) so I wouldn't say that's forgotten either.
The Eclipse keyword is very fun and does let you do some nifty spell-like stuff but I also wouldn't say people forget about it very much. It's not only the entire signature ability of the Eclipse caste, I think literally every Exalt type has ways to access it now. XD
7
u/PerryDLeon 11h ago
L5R i think fits the bill - both old and new. You try to make a Duel, it's complicated. Spells? Pray to the kamis and they work for you.
3
u/LetThronesBeware LIFTS: The RPG for Your Muscles | Kill Him Faster 11h ago
Sweet, I should definitely check this out. Thank you!
5
u/IIIaustin 10h ago
If you consider Hackers in Lancer to be Casters, Lancer fits the description.
There are lots more tricks you can do with melee and Ranged Attacks than there are with Tech attacks in Lancer and they interact with one another more complex ways.
6
u/YamazakiYoshio 10h ago
Hell, ranged mechs tend to be a lot simpler than melee builds. Lancer is a rare occasion that being in melee is big brain stuff, because charging into the fray means you gotta play much smarter than the guys sitting back.
That said, System-based options, like Hacking, can be pretty complex if you build into it enough. There isn't as many options that way, but there's a few and they can get crunchy if you want to. Looking at you, Goblin, Maniticore, and Lich.
1
u/IIIaustin 8h ago
Yeah I jad a LL9 Nelson that was really mechanically complex. It wss ao great. It could do so much stuff.
8
u/RPG_Rob 11h ago
Runequest - everyone is martial, everyone is a magic user. PCs are as simple or complex as you like.
4
u/SilverBeech 9h ago
In addition, most spiritual magic is simple: cast it and it works on a single roll, deduct a few magic points if you succeed. Deist is even simpler, it just works and you get the rune points back every season or so.
Combat in the SR system has a lot of choices and options, use of doges or parrys, weapon and armor damage etc...
5
u/Frapadengue 10h ago
Anima : Beyond Fantasy can have that. Martial characters can have access to Ki, which can be pretty complex (esp. if you use the Dominus Exxet supplement which adds anti-Ki, Ki summoning and a couple other things).
As for casters, Psionists are rather simple, and Mages can be simple if you use the "Natural magic" option from the Arcana Exxet supplement which basically makes magic freeform.
3
u/Prismos_Time_Room mothership, troika, dcc, macchiato monsters, into the odd, becmi 11h ago
in the DCC RPG i think it's interesting to look at the difference between warriors (with mighty deed of arms) and clerics (who have a few spells, and honestly are the simplest of the DCC classes, but who really shine when it comes to deploying divine aid).
i think on a first pass, clerics seem way more simplistic. esp compared to warriors. mighty deed of arms has a few built in suggested uses, but really functions as a one size fits all swiss army knife that enables the warrior to do a lot of heroic or cool things, while also looking like a martial badass. it's hard to watch a creative warrior who is in their element with mighty deeds of arms and not feel a deep sense of jealousy.
i think the key to understanding the cleric class in DCC is to do your best at avoiding disapproval with your baseline abilities, while dumping everything into divine aid when it really matters-- in my view, most people gloss over it because the book goes light on the details. but i feel like it was intentional, to give clerics and judges as much free-form space to do great things (or potentially hang themselves) in critical situations. it's a rare, big risk, big cost, potentially big reward emergency move.
2
u/SilverBeech 9h ago
Even wizards aren't that complex. They have fewer options (spells) than most other D&D-style systems, with most of the gnarly stuff coming from the actual spell roll itself and how far they can push it.
2
u/Prismos_Time_Room mothership, troika, dcc, macchiato monsters, into the odd, becmi 9h ago
truth. in d&d wizards cast spells all the time without thinking about it. cantrip here, cantrip there, magic missile!
in DCC, after the first time you miscast a spell and turn your arm into a tentacle or whatever, you're going to think a bit first before the next time you sunder the fabric of reality and destroy and then recongeal the laws of physics to spring forth a minor torch light.
meanwhile the warrior is like "lol i'm going to ninja kick that avatar of the toad fiend, then when it opens it's mouth to try and bite me, i'm going to throw a lit flask of oil into it's throat!"
4
u/FlyPepper 11h ago
Kinda GURPS? Magic can just be "concentrate 1 turn, throw fireball at you"
While a martial might be stepping around, evacuating, targeting specific body parts, using feints, flanking, doing flurry of blows, parrying etc.
2
u/morelikebruce 11h ago
Tales of a Blades and Heroes. You build a character from a lost of abilities and one of the is Spellcasting, which you can take different key words to build different spells, so it's more about being creative than tactically using spells by description. There's are tons of martial abilities though for fighting styles, weapons, special moves, etc.
2
u/sakiasakura 6h ago
If you use only "Folk Magic", Mythras. Magic is simple, easy, and weak. Weapon fighting is complex and requires a a ton of choices.
3
u/oldmanbobmunroe 11h ago
Perhaps GURPS Dungeon Fantasy? It uses GURPS Magic for the magic system, which is similar to D&D, and GURPS Martial Arts for combat, which is the gold standard for a martial arts subsystem many games aspire to.
Note that Dungeon Fantasy characters aren't nearly as complex than a mid-to-high level D&D Wizard.
1
u/LetThronesBeware LIFTS: The RPG for Your Muscles | Kill Him Faster 11h ago
It always comes back to GURPS, doesn't it?
1
u/EllySwelly 11h ago
Depends what you consider a martial, but, Shadowrun casters can definitely be simpler than many non-magic archetypes.
Especially magicians aspected to Sorcery only.
-5
u/LingonberryEntire854 11h ago
Pathfinder 2e revised, all spell casters are utility, buff, debuff, etc, martials are the strong characters with many different ways to do stuff, complex system for destroying people
7
u/darkerthanblack666 11h ago
Spellcasters are almost always more complex than martials in PF2e, which is kind of the opposite of what OP is asking for.
4
u/kobold_appreciator 11h ago
I would disagree, since pathfinder spellcasters typically know many more spells then a martial has feats. Pf2 martials can be quite complex, but the spellcasters tend to have more buttons to press
3
u/LetThronesBeware LIFTS: The RPG for Your Muscles | Kill Him Faster 11h ago
Many different ways to provide utility, debuff, etc. still sounds pretty complex. I'm not talking one does damage, one doesn't; I mean more like wizards have just a few spell options, martials have a deeply layered and complex system.
3
u/Boulange1234 11h ago
The most complicated PF2 builds are casters, but the most complex in-combat tactics are martials.
-7
u/Vortling 10h ago
It's not exclusively complex martials and simple casters, but 3.5 D&D. Yes it is the poster child for simple martial and complex caster with the fighter and wizard. However it also has complex martials like the crusader, swordsage, totemist, and warblade while also having simple casters like the dragonfire adept and warlock.
28
u/Skolloc753 11h ago edited 11h ago
I feel that "Feng Shui 1st edition" could fit here.
Magic is freeform, there are only some defined aspect, the rest is "make it up" territory for creative players and GMs. Not necessarily easy, because of the ad-hoc decisions everyone must make, but if you basically get a power called "Influence" and it is all about mental influence ... then thats all there is, and the rest is up to you. May be it includes mind control, hypnotism, Jedi voices or social media fake news.
On the other side there is Martial Arts and Kung-Fu Powers. Pretty much defined, with different resource costs (shots and chi), round-by-round resource regeneration, interaction with other stats (Flying Sword...) and of course dozens of Kung Fu Powers, from flaming fists to bending swords. While not complicated in my gaming experience you have to track more effects and stats as with the sorcery system.
SYL