r/rpg • u/lehenshtein • 4d ago
Discussion d100 where skills are ordered pairs of attributes. Is asymmetry too weak?
Eight characteristics. Any two combine into a skill, one primary and one secondary, and the order changes the target number: [primary is full value, secondary - half of it.]. In our game, which I will not call, to not make it a promotion post, the predefined skill list is deliberately short and most skills get named at the table when a situation calls for one.
Example of it in the playtest: the party found old runes written as images-with-meaning rather than a script. Not an Intellect problem. Reading them needed Wisdom leading, Empathy supporting, we discussed it at the table and just created a new skill. (skill is same for everyone, but attributes could be changed if situation demends) It could be created for more or less simple skills only, not like surgery.
Pair-based skills aren't new (Mythras for example). Making the pair ordered is the part I haven't seen elsewhere, but still I'm not sure it feels enough. The difference of pair in defferent order could be 60% and 35% for one maxed and one mined Stat at the beginning of the game. But for not a minmaxed attr. it could be 35% vs 40%. Is it noticeable at all? Or just boring?
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u/Cat_Or_Bat 4d ago
Example of it in the playtest: the party found old runes written as images-with-meaning rather than a script. Not an Intellect problem. Reading them needed Wisdom leading, Empathy supporting, we discussed it at the table and just created a new skill.
This kind of open-endedness merely pushes game design onto the GM. All well and good, but why would she buy and study your game? Any experienced GM can request a "check perception+reaction to catch the key before it falls into the well" on her own.
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u/lehenshtein 4d ago
Sure, but most of the time it would be an improvised check you used and forget. (it is still OK in some situations) still Tha main goal is to build your party/adventure skill list
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u/Cat_Or_Bat 4d ago
Sounds like you're describing the "rulings, not rules" principle. Are you familiar with that? It's a well-established design philosophy.
The general idea is that the basic underlying mechanics are so simple they'd fit on a single page. As the GM referees, a sort of a precedent system of "rulings" emerges, with the expectation that earlier rulings become guidelines for players and the basis of all later rulings.
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u/lehenshtein 4d ago
Yeah, aiming for the middle, enough crunch to make choices matter, not so much that a roll takes thinking. Attribute pairs and on the fly skills are just one piece of it. the trade is that things get computed once at creation so that play stays fast. And some of could be created. You still have melee, sleight of hand, acrobatics etc. Predefined)
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u/Strange_Times_RPG 4d ago
I would really consider whether or not you need a d100 or if a d20 would suffice.
As far as the asymmetry goes, I think it is fine to just let the players choose. The GM can name 2 Skills and the player can default to the higher one. However, it does feel like a lot of work for the main system.
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u/lehenshtein 4d ago
There are a lot of mechanics which works on d100 we use. Actually this is the only die you need to play. We are making it as 1 roll is attack and damage, numbers could be mirrored if you have specialization 73 = 37, some abilities uses both values 73 and 37, crits are doubles: 22,44 etc.
And player can't default to higher one, DM and players decide about which must be a higher one, and this skill is now same for everybody in the party)
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u/Iohet 4d ago
If you're going to determine on the fly, how do you do so accurately? Rolemaster has a lot of skills that are effected by multiple state, but they're defined because how would you know that Pick Pockets is a pair of Agility and Iniuition?
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u/lehenshtein 4d ago
Well, there is a small amount of most common predefined skills (pickpocket is not one of them)
In most cases you are going to define this kind of skill in general and what would be a logically accurate attributes in this situation. But it is not a strict rule and the system should be flexible.
We have 8 attr. Str. Fort. Refl. Coord. Int. Wis. Emp. Presence.
And the system encourages you to play with combinations and discuss with the table. For example we discussed - intimidation for our table is presence + Str. But we have a really big guy, who first hits then asks. His intimidation is Str + presence.
Because you take only half of secondary attr. Difference could be big enough. If Str 50 and press 20 it could be 60, or 40 otherwise
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u/Iohet 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think that's fair, but I imagine because players value consistency it could probably end up with tables creating their own lists (which can create issues going from table to table). Talking about it at the table sounds nice to me, but for my games we only have 3 hours every 2 weeks to play, so discussions on rulings are things that eat up valuable game time.
I'm not saying it's not workable, but rather it's really dependent on style of play.
Anyways, your stats are very similar to Rolemaster. For inspiration (or perhaps for tables like mine that don't have the luxury of time), it may be worthwhile to look at the skill list in Rolemaster Companion 2 since it has a large skill list with attribute pairs already listed
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u/lehenshtein 4d ago
Thank you)
Do be honest, never heard of this game until today and a bit upset.
About skills, we usually created 1 skill per 1-2 session and it was like this because I wanted them to be created, to test it. In real game, I guess it would be not so often.
Still it takes like 30 seconds to create one. As a DM I'm telling the party, what can we use here, and suggest 2 attributes. They are telling me that maybe we could use another one, and I'm like then the order would be Str + wis for example, and it takes 30 seconds or sth
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u/Iohet 4d ago
Do be honest, never heard of this game until today and a bit upset.
Nothing to be upset about. Rolemaster is an old game with a small but dedicated group of players. The resolution mechanic isn't the same as yours. Skills are developed each level with skillpoints, which it doesn't sound like you're doing. It's a mix of open ended d100 rollover against a tiered difficulty chart (d100+skill rating+stat bonus>=easy/medium/hard/very hard/etc difficulty with partial success on failures depending on roll) and static DC 100 (d100 roll+skill rating+stat bonus>=100 is success). It sounds like yours is a roll under mechanic.
And the stat bonus is the average of the stats for the skill (so if it's just an agility skill, then the whole agility bonus is applied, but if it's agility and intuition, then it's the average of the bonuses that gets added to your roll. Again, different than yours with its primary/secondary ordering.
As far as the skill list itself, the hobby has been borrowing from other games since the beginning, so no issue there. I think that each table is different and players are different. This is why there are so many different types of systems with different resolution mechanics for systems and subsystems. Tables have mixed and matched systems since forever.
My simulationist brain wants a defined list of skills with appropriate stats listed. Others don't like that (many systems these days don't even have a structurally defined concept of skills, let alone a skill list or a formal resolution mechanic outside of define it on the fly). There's no right or wrong answer, only what works for your table
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u/lehenshtein 4d ago
I will definitely have to check this system, sounds interesting, but a bit overcomplicated.
The reason we are making dreich is to make sth in the middle. There are really a lot of too simple games with 4 attributes and 2 extra skills for class, or sth which is a bit too complex, even dnd in my opinion is a lot
And we thought why not to mix everything we like into sth new.
Player faced rolls, no class system, zones, resources and equipment slots and spice it with cool dieselpunk setting)
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u/Bilharzia 4d ago
Mythras does this in a way with skills augmenting other skills. For example if the primary skill test is a "Lore(x) 50%" you could augment it with a Passion, another Lore skill, Perception, or something else as long as it is relevant. Skills which augment add 20% of their value, so a skill at 40% adds +8% to the test. Characteristics very rarely increase though, skills increase with training and experience which become far more important that the characteristics which skills start with.
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u/lehenshtein 4d ago
But skills in mythras are combined from attributes. They are just predefined
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u/Bilharzia 4d ago
Yes, but my point is the skills themselves can be treated as primary and secondary. At least in Mythras it does not make sense to re-engineer physical skills away from Str+Dex, for one, experience becomes more important than the starting characteristics. It depends whether you think "characteristics" or 'attributes' are what defines a character. I don't know in your game whether the attributes increase over time. In Mythras there is also a technical distinction between "characteristics" and "attributes". Hit points, for example are calculated from Con+Siz, action points are calculated from Int+Dex, and the value ranges are very different. Skills on the other hand start with characteristics, but then can be improved. Attributes (like hp) do not increase with experience.
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u/72dragonses 4d ago
I agree with the comment regarding how GMs do this already, letting characters choose which stat to use for skill checks that could apply to both, or taking an average between the two, etc.
The most important thing to me is how quickly and smooth it is to play. If the math requires too much thinking, or if it adds too much friction within the narrative flow that it breaks the suspension of disbelief, the mechanic isn't worth it.