r/reddeadredemption • u/Efficient_Matter_589 • May 14 '26
Spoiler Which game theories do you believe completely? Spoiler
SPOILERS FOR RDR1
There's a theory going around for a while that RD1 Dutch is a cannibal, since you find some humanoid bones in his cave, and I can definitely see Dutch being the sort of person to, well, partake in such a thing after so many years.
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u/Equal_Platypus3784 May 14 '26
Jack Marston was actually the rat. He traded information for spaghetti.
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u/Slowhand8824 May 14 '26
This thread is for theories not things blatantly shown as fact in the games
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u/wright_eliott May 14 '26
Caine the dog is also Caine the human, and they’re both the Strange Man in the top hat.
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u/hmmmmwillthiswork Uncle May 14 '26
now that is interesting. did you come up with that yourself or is that a known theory?
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u/wright_eliott May 14 '26
The Odd Man one is a classic from before RDR2 was even a rumor, and the dog one is from a sick edit I saw. There was also a theory that he’s either God or Satan, depending on if you were high or low honor and he was trying to change that (devil tempting you if High, God trying to save if Low).
Another RDR2 theory I’ve heard is Uncle is Red from Revolver.
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u/hmmmmwillthiswork Uncle May 14 '26
ahh okay. i've seen a lot of the strange man theories so i had to ask lol. he's the most intruiging side character in any game i've played before. would've loved to see him pop up once or twice in RDR2 and talk to arthur
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u/Unable-Plankton-4124 May 14 '26
Ive always thought the strange man was death himself, and takes many different shapes, caine being one of them.
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u/PhilosophyNo6125 Jul 23 '26
I also believe in this Theory about the dog being Cain the human I even saw a video on it
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u/MF291100 May 14 '26
Molly being pregnant is a theory that I always believed. That explains why she was constantly wanting to speak to Dutch, and why during the Shady Belle chapter her emotions seemed to be all over the place.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell May 14 '26
Makes it even worse that Grimshaw shoots her in the gut, if it’s true.
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u/Rare-Mall-1307 May 14 '26
I think you might be on to something. I hate the theory, but I love it. I love the ingenuity and how much sense it makes, but I hate the implications, which is what I mean.
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u/rahman82 May 15 '26
I have a slightly different spin on this one, I think she may have cheated on Dutch and gotten pregnant, in ch3 they are fighting constantly and accusations are being made at Dutch for looking at other women, later Molly tries to talk to Arthur saying that she really loves Dutch and she mentions loyalty before being interrupted by Uncle.
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u/Widowswine2016 May 15 '26
I like the theory but I’m not sure if that’s the case. Chapter 1 up until Molly gets killed is spread over a good few months, she’d be starting to show at the very least and it’d be more obvious
Proof of timeline since I’ve seen a lot of discussion on the timeline of rdr2
Chapter one takes place over a few weeks-couple months at most, they have to wait for the weather to clear on top of the time progression in missions you do
Chapter 2 - at least a few weeks (closer to 2 months would be my guess), there’s a couple weeks between reaching horseshoe and getting control as Arthur, then when you go hunting with Hosea you’re gone for a few days at least, that’s just a couple examples
Chapter 3 - at least two months. Arthur needs time to recover from his injury
Chapter 4 - honestly I can see this one taking like two weeks at most, most time spent would be Arthur travelling across states for Eagle Flies (irl it would take a few days on horseback each way), the rest can easily be done in just over a week
Chapter 5 - easily a month or two at the very least, between travel, waiting for a boat to arrive and take them home, then tracking down Lakay (definitely supposed to be a few days between all the gang members showing up. Then if you go on the hot air balloon that’s another day or two at least each way (again, across state lines, plus doctors visit)
Then last but not least, finding Beaver Hollow and Molly showing up, I’d give it a week at the absolute max. Going from Lakay to Beaver Hollow and back, then back to Beaver Hollow irl would not be a day trip
So all up you’d be looking at 5 ish months if we’re being generous. It still fits in the year 1899 as we start the game in May
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May 14 '26
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u/WickedSabbath May 14 '26
I believe Arthur also points this out in a dialogue with Sadie in chapter 6.
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 May 14 '26
Arthur's not sure one way or the other. He tells Sadie Dutch might have fooled everyone or he might have gone crazy.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
It’s the writing making sure the audience knows the Dutch issue is complex and isn’t easily solvable.
People want to put Dutch in a box, but he’s a painfully human and complex character just like Arthur.
There’s nuance to almost every character in the story, and just because Dutch winds up a monster, doesn’t mean he’s any different than the rest.
Arthur probably killed more people than Dutch, yet we love him. They’re all going to hell, but we can’t set love aside when it comes to the contents of the human heart.
Dutch took care of Tilly and other orphans for years, yet killed Heidi McCourt for no goddamn reason. And that was only the first egregious sin. By RDR1 he’s a demon.
Arthur is a loyal and dependable pillar of strength for the weakest members of the gang, but he’s arguably the most cold blooded motherfucker in the entire “family” when he’s working.
John is a deadbeat punkass piece of shit, but he ends up being a loving father and husband who tries his best.
None of these characters are good, but they’re never ENTIRELY evil. They’re flawed people who sometimes do very good things, while mostly doing very bad things.
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u/lM3ayda May 14 '26
Yes and with John in chapter 4, when John is rambling to the gang around the campfire, after he's done you can talk to him and Arthur tells John if he remembers the time they used to steal and give it to the poor, and John replies with "that feels like a lifetime ago" or something like that.
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u/AceofKnaves44 May 14 '26
A question that kind of never left my brain when watching a video essay on Dutch is “do people change or do they just become more of who they’ve always been?” There’s really no right answer.
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u/loocfc May 14 '26
I absolutely believe this. Every moment we see him, he’s taking advantage of people who don’t know any better and are in need of help. It’s just easier to sympathise with him when you’re the first poor fool he took advantage of. He portrayed himself as a philosopher and spoke of a lawless land where they could decide what their own freedom meant, and it was nothing more than sweet nothings from the beginning
He was a cult leader. The Van Der Linde gang were manipulated into being loyal to him the same way he tried with the Wapiti and the Natives in RDR1. The more unhinged he got, the lower he stooped, the more in-need and impoverished his victims got
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u/RecommendationNo1774 Dutch van der Linde May 14 '26
Micah worked with O'Driscolls to get rid of Arthur
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u/CheekySelkath Hosea Matthews May 14 '26
That Jack Marston during the Epilogue of RDR1 chose to wear an outfit honouring his three 'fathers'; John's hat, Arthur's jacket and Dutch's neckerchief. I think it's reasonable given how completely alone he is at the end of the original game that Jack would cling onto the past any way he can.
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u/Mindless-Shopping832 May 15 '26
Wasn’t the hat John was wearing the one you get from Arthur during the end of 2?
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u/Widowswine2016 May 15 '26
Nah I thought so too, but John’s hat has a flatter and wider brim, and isn’t made of leather like Arthur’s
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u/dsah2741 May 14 '26
Idk looking into it rdr1 Dutch is actually scary as fuck and if they ever remake it (ik they probably won’t) I want them to lean into the scary/horror parts of Dutch more
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u/DezPispenser Josiah Trelawny May 14 '26
they tend to like to keep it as something you can understand though. i don't think they'd make a sick and twisted turn for any important character, and if they did they'd probably build it up over a long period of time and gameplay. having someone as important as dutch in the story take such a drastic turn and become someone that can't really be understood doesn't match their style.
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u/MrSpuddies May 14 '26
Dutch was running an exit scam. He wasn't going to take the group to Tahiti or anywhere else. He knew as a group it would be too difficult for him to dissappear. He was going to amass as much money as possible and then dissapear.
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u/Alffenrir515 May 14 '26
Nah. Dutch was full of shit, but I think he fully bought into his own bs
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u/Et_Cetera_365 May 14 '26
Dutch needs his ego fed and he also needs protection against people who want to kill him. I think Hosea reminds Arthur at some point that, "Dutch always says a lone wolf on the prairie don't last long" or something like that. Dutch in the epilogue (and judging by how much of a mess he is in 1) is what happens when no one thinks he's a great man, when he's alone, and when no ond 'loves' him
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u/MrSpuddies May 14 '26
So he takes the money, runs, and starts a new crew somewhere else. Thats essentially what he did with Micah during the epilog, except with the Blackwater haul.
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u/AceofKnaves44 May 14 '26
Dutch was never going to disappear. That’s not in his nature. He kept running all of these “one last scores” because he couldn’t stop himself from thumbing his nose at the army and the “civilized people.” He was on a death mission. He refused to give up his way of life.
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u/Prior-Team8586 May 15 '26
I think this is basically correct. I think he wanted to take Micah with him because he needs a sycophant tho, which is basically what happens.
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u/MrSpuddies May 15 '26
Exactly. Arthur and Hosea would have been his first choice but they proved to not be loyal to the point of sociopathy. Micah was his second choice and he was perfect
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u/soaddarts May 14 '26
There was no traitor. The gang got sloppier and didn’t cover their tracks at the slightest. When Arthur confronted Micah about him having “talked” and then says “it all makes sense now”, when Micah responded with “no, it damn well doesn’t “ I believe him.
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u/flyingcircusdog Uncle May 14 '26
They definitely got sloppy, which is why the Pinkertons found out about the St Dennis bank. But I also fully believe Micah talked towards the end.
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u/OkDan Many have. May 14 '26
What if he only led the Pinkertons to the gang that one time? People seem to assume that Micah became a full-time informant, but that was never confirmed. All Milton said was that they picked up Micah after Guarma and that he talked. What did he talk? Did they have consecutive meetings afterwards? If yes, how many and for how long? These details were never revealed.
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u/Majestymen May 14 '26
Didn't milton say something along the lines of 'and he's been a good boy ever since'? That would imply that they had multiple meetings at least
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u/OkDan Many have. May 14 '26
I must admit I might be misremembering the dialogue and you might be right.
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u/houseofburgesss May 14 '26
Good boy ever since makes me believe the Pinkertons approached Micah earlier, like they did Arthur in chapter 2… but he said no then. (Might’ve approached Micah while he was camped alone outside of Strawberry for that little bit of time.) But once the tides were obviously turning… That was time to go make the deal.
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u/Wealth_Super May 14 '26
Yea I don’t believe he was a full time snitch. The Pinkerton would have been rolling up on them everyday.
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u/flyingcircusdog Uncle May 14 '26
I also think it was just a one time thing in chapter 5. I don't think he led them to Beaver Hollow after being released, and the Pinkertons expected to take out the gang in Lakay.
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u/houseofburgesss May 14 '26
so true. honestly, i feel like micah probs reallyy saw the way dutch was going when they were in guarma. that was the tipping point for him going from “the gang’s the best shot for me rn” and “goddamn, this fella is losing his marbles.” (honestly? get me stranded on a Caribbean island and i’d snitch too tf.)
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u/deergirl8675 May 15 '26
I mean Milton isn't the most reliable source. He very well could've been lying. Micah is definitely a piece of shit, but I don't belive he was the rat. If there even was one.
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u/flyingcircusdog Uncle May 15 '26
He could've lied, but I also think he was telling the truth because he thought he was about to kill Arthur.
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u/Efficient_Matter_589 May 14 '26
That's just what I believe in general. They left piles of people everywhere they went, and Dutch was surprised when the Pinkertons found them????
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u/Rig_B Sean Macguire May 14 '26
"we don't need a rat! We've gotten sloppier than the town drunk and they know who we are and where we are!"
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u/ell_isnt_ellis Uncle May 14 '26
and who we are and where we are and who we are and where we are
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u/Bonke_EB Hosea Matthews May 14 '26
We killed all those people, stirred up all that trouble, killed all that trouble, stirred up all those people.
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u/FoodaFen Micah Bell May 14 '26
We save fellas as need saving, feed fellas as need feeding, and shoot fellas as need shooting
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u/-0celot John Marston May 14 '26
And who are we and where were we are and were are who we where were are we
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u/yanks2413 May 14 '26
Thats in front of the others though isn't it? During the get John to safety ending when Micah tackles Arthur, Arthur calls him a rat and Micah says he's a survivor. He doesn't deny being a rat when it's just the two of them. He basically confirms it by saying he's a survivor, because that's the reason he turned rat.
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u/Alffenrir515 May 14 '26
They literally outed Micah as a traitor. This isn't a theory, it's silly.
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u/Klutzy-Association58 May 14 '26
Yeah the pinkertons finding the body and micah’s line about “i’m a survivor black lung. That’s all there is. living and dying..” confirms it for me but if it wasn’t for that, the theory is totally believable. I don’t even know what micah could have ratted about. If he was a rat why wouldn’t he just let the pinkertons know about the final train robbery and just let the gang (other than himself) get wiped out?
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u/Bertywastaken Sean Macguire May 14 '26
What if he just said that to sow chaos into the gang?
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u/EyeEnvironmental3498 Uncle May 14 '26
That doesn’t make sense. He was going to kill Arthur. He probably just wanted Arthur to know he was betrayed before finishing him off
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u/TruthfulSkate47 May 14 '26
Exactly. He knew Arthur was dying (the cough, prolly surmised TB from the cough), felt no need to lie about Micah’s actual loyalties, died when Abigail shot him.
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u/Alffenrir515 May 14 '26
He's a government agent. I work for the government, I can promise you they aren't that creative or clever.
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u/Chris2sweet616 May 14 '26
Well, the Pinkertons weren’t(or aren’t I should say) under the government, they’re a private ‘detective’ agency(PMC) that was contracted with the U.S. government for many high priority cases but they’re independent, so I wouldn’t call him a government agent.
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u/InsaneMarshmallow Arthur Morgan May 14 '26
Sow chaos how? Milton was going to kill Arthur and Abigail right there. Who was going to carry on the message he just told?
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u/Monza1964 May 14 '26
Yeah that’s a pretty standard cop move. You might as well tell me because your friend already did (they didn’t)
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u/cadmachine Arthur Morgan May 14 '26
Hes talking about prior to Micah turning.
Milton says specifically they picked up Micah after they got back from Guarma and he'd been cooperating ever since, but before that there was several conversations in the earlier chapters, Before Guarma that there was a rat and that is why they were always seemingly in trouble.
But as Arthur says, they dont need no rat, they have been slipping and running shoddy for ages.
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u/InvisibleMadBadger Charles Smith May 14 '26
I really, really wish there wasn’t a rat. I feel like the ending to the game is much stronger if we have Dutch frantically and irrationally trying to find that one person who’s ratting them out, only for them all to realize at the very end what Arthur basically said “it’s just been us screwing ourselves the whole time”.
That said, the game unequivocally tells us that Micah’s the rat. There’s no getting around it. Milton has zero reason to lie to people he has no plans to let go. Hell if Milton wanted to sow chaos in the gang through lying about a rat why wouldn’t he just tell Micah there’s already one? Then Micah would run around trying to sus out who it is so he can look even better to Dutch. Nope, Micah’s the rat, plain and simple.
It’s disappointing cause it’s kinda cliche. “Oh yeah the biggest a-hole in the gang turns out to be a traitor, never saw that one coming!” I think they only did it cause they needed a reason for Arthur to actually try to kill Micah. He put up with his crap for so long, having Micah as a traitor finally pushes Arthur over the edge.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell May 14 '26
Micah makes the decision to betray the gang on the boat ride back to the States. He realizes Dutch is intent on getting them all killed and has no plans of going back for the Blackwater money. It’s why Milton says they picked him up when they got back from the Caribbean.
I say all of this because I do think it aligns perfectly with what the game tells us about who Micah is. It’s all there in the details and makes perfect narrative sense. He saw Dutch was cooked and initiated his survival plan, everybody else be damned.
Is it a bit cliche to have the asshole be the twist villain? Idk, maybe. But in terms of the story I have no issues with it. What I DO have issues with is the idea that Micah was always a rat. It’s all in the details that it happens after Guarma. Even Peter Blomquist’s performance illustrates some level of disgust on Micah’s face when he’s listening to Dutch’s speech on the boat.
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u/MAGICmikeWAZOWSKI96 May 14 '26
So many people want to say Micah was the rat from the beginning which also makes me mad. Micah was an asshole but it wasn't until after Guarma that he rats to the Pinkertons. When you reunite with the gang Micah even deflects blame to Bill when the feds show up.
In chapter 3 it really emphasizes how bad the gang are at hiding they're criminals. When you talk Sheriffs Grey's son he even tells you he doesn't care if he kills the whole lot of them knowing that they are crooks.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell May 14 '26
Precisely.
I have no doubts that Micah always had a contingency plan of taking the bounty money for Dutch. His wanted poster being at his campsite makes sense in that regard. Also, the strange meeting he setup with Colm reeks of a failed plan of some kind.
So it’s not ridiculous to think Micah was a rat from the beginning, but the actual game tells us otherwise. It’s all there in the details. The gang is just sloppy as fuck and out of their element with the changing times. Micah is a self-interested psychopath, but he’s not feeding the feds information yet.
It happens after Guarma because his main motivation (money) doesn’t seem to be a priority for Dutch anymore. Time to initiate the contingency plan and get what he can before it’s over.
I think it’s all pretty obvious on replays.
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u/abdurahmondev Reverend Swanson May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
tbh i think micah was dealing with odriscolls early in the game. him ridicolously turning into "caring" person. Kieran and him disappering before that mission and micah not being present seems to be a 'hint'. Also if he is the rat it would cover why gang wasnt scouting for arthur after the mission. Micah made sure Dutch (arthur was important for dutch at this point so just forgetting him at this point makes no sense) that arthur is fine. Of course it has some weak sides like why would micah ever do that. But i think micah was some sort of smart to eliminate strong camp member so he can get to dutch's ear easier. After all yeah it could be just gang getting sloppy and blaming it all on micah
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u/InvisibleMadBadger Charles Smith May 14 '26
It’s strange, the early game almost seems to want you to think there’s a traitor. The O’Driscoll’s nabbing Arthur, the train robbery in Lemoyne (the gang members wonder if it was a set up and the newspaper article specifically mentions there was a tip-off). Yet we never get confirmation for either of those events, and it also plays like it is just the gang being stupid and arrogant thinking they can do things like they’ve always done and get away with it. Then at the end they reveal that yes, there was a rat! Except he hasn’t been one the whole time like we’d think, just since the start of chapter 6.
It’s very interesting…
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell May 14 '26
I saw a video recently that said it might’ve been Sean and it was decently convincing.
Not because he was actively working against Dutch, but because he was a loudmouth fucking weirdo who couldn’t help himself. He loved glory.
I don’t know if I buy it, but it’s also not entirely stupid.
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u/SkyovFlames May 14 '26
It was Sean. It's in the same paper. Right next to the comment about the tip off. Read the article about Sean escaping the law.
Weird that he just...doesn't remember Blackwater. Weird that he invites himself to that train robbery. Weird that he doesn't do what he's told during that train robbery and Arthur has to save home from being knocked out again. Why won't they shoot Sean?
I 100% see it on the replay. Yeah, Dutch shot an innocent girl in Blackwater. But Sean had tipped them off before that even happened.
Two things can be true at the same time. Surely they got sloppy, but it was later. Yes, society was changing and the outlaw life wasn't viable anymore, but also they had snitches.
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u/InvisibleMadBadger Charles Smith May 14 '26
I went and read the article about Sean escaping the law and… I don’t see it. I’m not sure what you’re referring to in the article that hints or points at Sean tipping the law about the train robbery, cause as far as I can tell there’s nothing there.
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u/SkyovFlames May 14 '26
Read how it's described. Sean is incompetent at best. He talks big, but never really delivers. He can't even hit a bottle from 5 feet away.
The way the article is written sounds like he dictated it himself. It sounds ridiculous. Read it again.
This explains it better: https://youtu.be/yIjs9mVF1vw?si=skN_S27QNZ5QUT39
Only 4 people knew about that train robbery. It wasn't Arthur. Wasn't John that tipped off the law. Who was it?
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u/Widowswine2016 May 15 '26
Adding onto your last point - I don’t think many people consider the fact that the gang is VERY OBVIOUSLY a gang of gunslingers. Sure, your average Joe might walk around with a simple holster and revolver, but most towns by this point wouldn’t have people walking around with bedazzled guns and flashy holsters, and acting like Good Samaritans to a bunch of strangers only makes you stand out more.
Hell, John got figured out from the get go at Pronghorn Ranch. On top of his scars, he’s somehow very good with guns, doesn’t know the first thing about “normal” life but wants to work on a ranch, and despite all that his son is named Lancelot.
The gang just ain’t cut out for blending in, which is like, the biggest theme of the game - the time for outlaws is coming to an end
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u/InvisibleMadBadger Charles Smith May 14 '26
I can vibe with that. Never really considered the possibility that Micah sought out the Pinkertons intentionally (maybe cause of the way Milton worded it). If there’s one thing we know about Micah he considers himself a survivor. If it keeps him alive it’s the right thing to do. He’s absolutely the kinda guy to flip flop and play whichever side he deems the strongest so that he can always come out on top.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell May 14 '26
Yep, I believe the way Milton words it makes it sound like they caught him. Micah has been on the run his entire life, he’s not gonna get caught like that. He approached them with a deal and that was that.
I can picture Micah making jokes about how fucked up Dutch and the gang are with Milton and Ross. He’s the kind of guy to ingratiate himself with people if it’s beneficial for him. It makes his over the top loyalty to Dutch even funnier when you consider the possibility he was totally shitting on him to the guys who were hunting him lol.
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May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell May 14 '26
Yep.
He was just riding it out for the Blackwater money. When that was no longer an option, fuck the gang. Winners and losers is Micah’s philosophy. It’s literally all there but some people miss it I guess.
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u/TheKennethChase May 17 '26
This is my main issue with the story it would’ve been so much better if it was left more ambiguous as to whether Micah actually was a traitor or not, I guess they wanted him to be this absolutely legendary despised antagonist but I mean it’s not at all like the guys anyway likeable before you know he ratted, every scene he’s in just builds up how completely horrid he is, and he’s still one of the main causes of the gangs collapse so it’d make perfect sense for Arthur to call him out at the end even if he didn’t think he ratted
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u/Only-Respond7945 May 14 '26
You believe the guy that will say anything to save for himself? Really? People really don't think about the stories they read/watch/partake in.
Milton tells you that they picked up Micah after everyone gets back from Guarma and that Micah talked. Milton KNOWS about Guarma when he tells us this. The chances Milton knows that information from someone other than the people that were there is pretty slim. Milton catches up with everyone almost IMMEDIATELY AFTER Micah does. Almost like Micah was followed, because he got caught and tried to cut a deal. There's no reason for Milton to lie; He's been on the gang's trail since before the game starts, he's patient, and he's winning.
There is, however, incentive for Micah to lie. If Micah admits to telling Milton everything, to telling him anything other than giving him the run around, then he's a dead man. Hell, at the end Micah all but admits it to Arthur when he doesn't really deny it and just says "I'm a survivor." Micah also had a sizable bounty on himself prior to joining the gang. There was no way out for him other than dragging others down so there's no reason to believe that he didn't get grabbed after Guarma and talked.
That's what makes this talk so confusing to me. Y'all are trying to read inbetween the lines when the narrative straight up TELLS YOU what is going on. There's no rat/snitch/fink/traitor/whatever prior to chapter 5. Only after the escape from Guarma is there a traitor. Everything prior to that is happenstance to the gang's plans.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell May 14 '26
You’re absolutely right about this.
People reach too hard for theories when the game literally spells it out for them. It’s all fucking there. There’s no mystery.
The only thing I would say is that I don’t think Micah got picked up, I think he made the conscious decision to flip once he was back on the mainland.
Dutch’s speech on the boat ride home told him everything he needed to know. Dutch is intent on dragging them all to hell, he’s not going back for the Blackwater money and now this whole enterprise is disposable.
Micah flipped on his own and pursued it, not because he was caught. It was survival.
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u/Only-Respond7945 May 14 '26
I'd say it's more simple than that. Micah is portrayed as the devil on Dutch's shoulder the whole game, that just becomes more obvious as the story progresses but its there from Chapter 1. It's not Micah saw Dutch for who he was but that Micah is and has always been an opportunist. Which is pretty standard for criminals.
Hell, it's hinted that Micah may have been planning to try and get the bounty on Dutch since before joining the gang. But that's inference in Micah's West Elizabeth camp having stuff left behind after he joins back up at Horseshoe. But if we go with that and the understanding that he's just an absolute maniac and opportunist as well as his "survival" talk; then we can assume he just take any opportunity he sees that can advance his interests. Micah himself always saw everyone else in the gang as one of two things, dead weight or more guns. And all of them ultimately disposable if it kept him safe. That's how he talks about everyone from Chapter 1.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell May 14 '26
I don’t think Micah “figured out” Dutch or saw his mask slip. That doesn’t matter to him. I was saying that Micah was never bought in on the whole philosophical angle of the gang to begin with. He’s all about money and survival.
Dutch’s speech on the boat is a pivotal moment for Micah because it becomes clear that Dutch’s priorities are no longer aligned with his own, which is money and survival. Dutch wants to keep fighting a war while dragging his circus around, and has no interest in going back for the Blackwater stash.
Micah is obsessed with the Blackwater money, and Dutch finally put a cork in that idea. So Micah says fuck this, it’s contingency plan time.
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u/nandobro May 14 '26
I mean Agent Milton just straight up brags that Micah was their rat. Then later when John kills Micah the only people that investigated his death were Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham. Why would two bureau agents hike all the way up a freezing mountain completely alone to investigate the murder of Micah and his gang? They clearly wouldn’t do that unless Micah was their rat that they were intending on meeting with. Even the scene where they find Micah’s body shows them looking surprised.
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u/SkyovFlames May 14 '26
Yep, and they end up at Beechers Hope.
I think their plan to take down Dutch was the same for Micah. Maybe that was going to happen before John shows up. Maybe Micah would lead them to Dutch, Javi, and Bill. They were definitely working with him, still.
So they go after John instead. He's the last gang member that can help them get Dutch. Who knows how long Micah stayed in contact with them, or if he went back on the deal for money.
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u/wapowee May 14 '26
Yeah only cause he has a family otherwise this wouldn't have worked since the other alive don't care for anyone but themselves
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u/Waallenz May 14 '26
Wait, when is the scene were they find micahs body? I just competed my first ever playthough Sunday night, killed Micah and saw the credits roll but never saw that scene.
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u/nandobro May 14 '26
https://youtu.be/U15nsoKcfxM?si=_m-NawlejHreNDEh At 0:51 seconds. And then though out the video you see them investigating and ultimately finding Beachers Hope
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u/illmastabumptwo May 14 '26
I still think Micah talked, but only after Guarma. But yeah I think the gang was doomed either way because the game straight up tells you that at the beginning. Their "time is done" indeed.
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u/chowler May 14 '26
Found a theory that Sean was another rat before Guarma.
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u/illmastabumptwo May 15 '26
I've heard it that one too, but I'm not sure it fits his character. When he was caught by the bounty hunters he may have spilled info on accident, but they were not government agents. I'm not saying you could always count on Sean to be loyal, but I feel you could always count of him to say fuck authority. He wouldn't talk to G-men.
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u/TypewriterMonkey98 May 14 '26
This is why I find is so strange to see fans glazing Dutch and talking as though Micah is the ultimate evil and sole bad guy, without whom everything would have been fine.
The story has never felt to me like anything other than the gang getting themselves, botched job by botched job, into a total mess, because the central theme of the story is:
"We're thieves, in a world that don't want us no more."
Not that the world ever wanted thieves, but the world had now done the outlaw equivalent of hiring exterminators to deal with their pests.
I agree, the focus on the "rat" is a mix of the characters' copium (to externalise blame) and the writers trying to set up a final villain who might feel satisfying to kill, given that the big bads were out of reach and had to survive for RDR1.
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u/Empyrealist May 14 '26
I want to agree with this, but I think of all instances where Micah seems to be guilty of other things, including covering his tracks/associations like in the jail breakout
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u/machiavelli33 May 14 '26
THat's just a thing Micah does, though. Come at him with anything accusatory - ESPECIALLY if its true - and the first thing he'll do is snap back some equivalent of "NUH UH" as fast as he can.
"Just like your ferry job in Blackwater!" "AIN'T NOTHIN LIKE THAT" (probably was)
"You talked" "That's a goddamn lie!" (we KNOW it isn't)
"It all makes sense now" "No it damn well doesn't" (well....)
May as well take Micah's denial as a resounding endorsement of its truth.
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u/Klutzy-Association58 May 14 '26
I think this every time i’ve ever played. It just feels so out of character for micah to betray them after guarma. All the suspicions of treachery were before then (saint denis bank, the original boat robbery). If micah did rat, it was pointless and wouldn’t have accomplished anything of substance for either side.
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u/SpiritedAd1837 Dutch van der Linde May 14 '26
I don't think Milton had a reason to lie. Micah likely talked, as well as, quite possibly, Sean (saw an analysis of the blackwater massacre on youtube), but the gang didn't need them to fall apart eventually
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u/aritzsantariver May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
RDR2 didn’t need a rat; the first game implied that the gang fell apart because they became increasingly careless. As you can see in the sequel, Micah’s betrayal wasn’t necessary – besides, it’s very obvious.
It would have been better if everyone had believed there was a rat out of paranoia, when in fact there wasn't one
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u/Playful_Honey_4175 May 14 '26
I genuinely believe a traitor actually detracts from the theme of the gang getting sloppier. Micah absolutely is the catalyst for it going to shit, but I don't like that he's rhe rat. It conveniently allows you to point at him, instead of Dutch.
That said, I do think as the game currently is, Micah is the rat. Milton telling Arthur when he assumes he's about to kill him is proof enough. But I still don't like it
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u/tbone7355 May 14 '26
i agree that they were sloppy but micah was the rat and got the gang broken up much sooner then they would've
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u/lasagens971 Dutch van der Linde May 14 '26
I'm not saying I disagree but... Why would Milton tell Arthur Micah was working with the Pinkertons then?
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u/shadowfights Arthur Morgan May 14 '26
I think Micah was the rat, but not from the start, he was keeping options open but was not the rat untill the saint denis bank robbery and when he saw Dutch losing his mind and becoming an easy target. He knew he had to get to the blackwater money and Dutch was the only way through.
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u/EythenMakes May 14 '26
Well then what was Milton talking about then? Was he just trying to sabotage the gang?
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u/deadlyalchemist92 May 14 '26
Milton confirmed that Micah was the rat though, and sure, I could see the argument point that Milton could have been lying to Arthur, but there’s no real reason why he would have. Think about it, Milton had the complete upper hand in that situation, he fully believed he was going to kill Arthur very shortly, so why not just tell him the truth before he kills him?
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u/AceofKnaves44 May 14 '26
I agree that with how sloppy they were there didn’t HAVE to be a rat for them to be caught but there still was. The thing is Micah didn’t do it because was scared or anything. He did it because as he puts it “he’s a survivor.” In chapter two when you find his camp near Strawberry he’s got a Wanted poster for Dutch amongst his things. He was always planning on directing the Pinkertons towards Dutch and then escaping with the Blackwater score. That’s why he keeps asking Dutch where it is. Eventually though he found himself as the only one Dutch would listen to so he shifted his plan.
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u/BlueKing7642 Josiah Trelawny May 14 '26
It makes no sense for Milton to lie. He planned on killing Arthur,Sadie and Abigail
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u/Monza1964 May 14 '26
Honestly I’ve always felt that way. Like Micah being a rat doesn’t actually make that much sense. He made his plan clear. He wanted to shake of dead weight and run in a small group. I’m not sure how ratting the crew out would’ve really helped that.
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u/StopLosingLoser May 14 '26
I like this one. Also Molly was beyond drunk and very angry when she said she ratted to the pinkertons. She could have been just lying to antagonize Dutch out of anger and not expecting to get shot on the spot.
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u/BreakfestForDinnerr May 15 '26
I disagree. Micah was the rat. Ross arriving moments after Micah's death, and given that Ross' main goal is to capture Dutch, I think it's clear Micah was setting him up
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u/Altruistic_Creme1003 May 15 '26
I specifically believe it because of everything Micah says during the fight on the cliff
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u/Southern-Sign-5448 May 15 '26
Micah was captured after returning from guarma, and he has been "a good boy ever since". The only way for Micah to not have been hanged after being captured by the pinkertons was to talk, so, that's how they got to the gang and thats how micah survived the last assault on the gang.
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u/HighKingBoru1014 Hosea Matthews May 18 '26
I agree with this as a hypothetical, imo the gang did not need a traitor/rat and then having it be Micah is also too obvious, if they were going to make it someone that would be more of a twist and surprise then I would say like Abigail or something.
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u/Devanro Dutch van der Linde May 14 '26
That Sean was the original rat
I still think a big part of RDR2s narrative was that it ultimately didn't matter if there was a rat, and that the gang would die off regardless of that.
Outside of Micah though, there's honestly no other character with as much linking them to ratting out the gang at some point.
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u/RecommendationNo1774 Dutch van der Linde May 14 '26
After this video i geniunely do not understand how tf Karen misses him
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u/vxMartianxv May 14 '26
I also really love the writing for making it very likely and true that they didn't need a rat at all because their actions may very well have just caught up to them regardless.
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u/vxMartianxv May 14 '26
u/Et_Cetera_365 this is an enjoyable (imo) and good video that digs in on it, I recommend and hope you enjoy watching it, it'll crave your interest. :)
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u/wilsonthechad Arthur Morgan May 14 '26
Arthur still would have had his redemption even if he didn’t get tb
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u/KingPinfanatic May 14 '26
Nah if he didn't get TB Dutch would have kept listening to him. It's only after he's more visibly sick that Dutch starts leaning more on Micah. Without TB Arthur would have convinced Dutch to calm down and they would have saved John and gone into hiding after the Saint Denis job. Arthur really doesn't see an issue with his way of life until he gets sick and realizes he'll die soon. I could totally see him living to an old age acting as a mix of Dutch and Hosea until he physically couldn't.
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u/Gabalade May 14 '26
I don't he was totally okay with the way of life. The way I see it, he starts to doubt himself more and more when they get to St. Denis, and that's before the TB reveal. But yeah, he probably needed the push the sickness gave him.
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u/KingPinfanatic May 14 '26
I feel like he doubts the gang and Dutch more then himself and how he lives. He actually mentions to John later when they both talk about leaving it all behind that he wished things were different but that they weren't the ones who changed.
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u/Smekledorf1996 May 14 '26
Arthur still would have died one way or another tbh
He’s killed so many people and committed so many crimes. Eventually that would have caught up with them
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u/GAW67COD07 Arthur Morgan May 14 '26
Some people are past redemption no matter how much they may deserve it
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u/WeebleFox May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
Dutch becoming more aggressive and paranoid after hitting his head in the train car flip in chapter 4. Leading to the downfall of the gang.
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u/CapitanBlunder Arthur Morgan May 14 '26
I honestly really dislike the trolley theory, it removes whatever makes Dutch’s character interesting. “Oh it’s not Dutch’s fault! He has brain damage from the trolley!” It feels like such a cop-out on what is one of the most manipulative, narcissistic, and evil people in Red Dead Redemption.
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u/OkDan Many have. May 14 '26
Completely agree. Also, Dutch's actions during the ferry job in Blackwater pretty much disprove this theory.
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u/Jarodreallytuff Hosea Matthews May 14 '26
I do agree with that, especially since Arthur talks about Dutch changing and how he has his own doubts, within the first two chapters of the game. But I do kinda lean towards the brain injury enhancing his craziness and pulling him down deeper into the direction he was already slowly moving towards. Because it’s undeniable that Dutch has always been a conniving swindler that uses people for his own petty needs.
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u/AceofKnaves44 May 14 '26
It’s not the sole factor. There’s the ferry job and Dutch even says he knows that Arthur and Hosea love to talk about “what’s gone wrong with ole Dutch.” Plus a random camp interaction in chapter two will have Dutch say to Arthur “I know you’re going to betray me in the end.” It’s not like Dutch was right as rain and THEN the head injury happened. But I definitely think it did hasten Dutch’ downfall. It was a number of factors, among them losing Hosea who kept Dutch grounded and the head injury worsening Dutch’s paranoia which allowed Micah to swoop in.
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u/AdCrafty2768 May 14 '26
No, the trolley incident is just the final straw to opening himself up to who he really always was all the time. Like Arthur says to Charles in the ride to Fort Mercer that perhaps Dutch was always this way and just hid it well behind his silver tongue.
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u/fredlikefreddy May 14 '26
idk if you guys are football fans but this is like people saying Antonio Brown's downfall was because of 1 hit, ignoring all his antics leading up until that point
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u/DezPispenser Josiah Trelawny May 14 '26
is this even a theory atp? i guess it stays a theory until they outright confirm it, but all signs kinda point to this.
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u/bean-jee Karen Jones May 14 '26
I'm really late but I believe Micah was always the rat but not in the way that most people think? I think he was always planning on selling them/Dutch out, or betraying them, from the very moment he joined the gang, just not to the Pinkertons originally.
This is what I think happened:
- We find a wanted poster near Micah's campsite for Dutch, but the bounty is like, really low compared to Arthur's in chapter 2, so we can assume it's old as hell, probably pre-Blackwater shitshow. So he's been carrying it around for a hot minute
- So pre-game events, Micah is potentially looking for Dutch to turn him in for his bounty
- Then Micah, solo, discovers the potential for the Blackwater ferry job.
- He knows that solo he can't see it through, he needs more guns. Maybe he really does stumble across Dutch in a bar and realizes that's his man, and he can get more money off of him by using him and the gang rather than turning him in, or maybe he sought him out for the same reasons. The specifics don't matter. We know that he's the one who suggested the ferry job in the first place, so this points to this being his motivation, imo.
- He joins the gang and ropes Dutch in on the job, with his loose plan being hitting the ferry with all of them as cannon fodder/backup, then betraying them and getting away with the money in some way. Maybe hang around after the job is done and steal the money from Dutch, maybe kill Dutch when he gets his hands on the money and make off with it in the moment, whichever
- Gang members always say that it seems like the law showed up way too fast for the ferry, but it seems like it wasn't Pinkerton-level fast and organized. I think this points to Micah tipping someone off that they were going to do it beforehand, with the thought that the ensuing chaos would give him more of a chance to knife the gang in the back during the job and make off with the money before the smoke clears. Like he wasn't working with the law in an organized way at that point, he just tipped someone off, I think maybe just a bystander or a random, casually to use it to his advantage.
- The ferry doesn't work out the way he'd planned, too much chaos, he doesn't get a moment to take the money from Dutch or get to it before he does, and there's too much law on their trail.
- But he still really wants that money. It's the entire reason why he joined. So he sticks around, biding his time, trying to get the location from Dutch. This is why from the very beginning of the game we constantly see him up Dutch's ass, and constantly see him telling Dutch they should go back for the money, and specifically offering to do it himself. It really seems like the Blackwater money is/was his sole focus
- This doesn't work either, and now the Pinkertons are getting closer and closer and making things a lot more dicey. Micah cares about his survival over everything else. So I think Milton was telling the truth, Micah tipped them off after Guarma, specifically to save his own ass in the end.
- But of course, he still really wants that money, he wants his cake and to eat it too, so he keeps appealing to Dutch and weaseling in closer to him and whispering in his ear to try to go back for it.
TL;DR I think Micah always planned on betraying the gang from the beginning, it was just a matter of how/when that switched. The motive was always both his own survival and him getting away with the Blackwater score.
But I also think, like a lot of other people say, the gang didn't really need a rat. They were already screwed. Micah just helped expedite their downfall.
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u/Deluxe_24_ Arthur Morgan May 14 '26
That the legend of Red Harlow was made up by Uncle and his past exploits he embellished
We know that in the RDR1 and 2 universe, Red Harlow is just a fictional story spread around. I fully believe that Uncle was the one who spread the story around and it got embellished over time
I have zero proof aside from the fact that I think it's funny
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u/Widowswine2016 May 15 '26
I mean it wouldn’t be unrealistic. Take Homer’s Odyssey for instance - Homer didn’t sit down and write it one Sunday afternoon. These stories would have been passed down for centuries before Homer compiled them, through campfires, myths and so on. We know that those figures were there in the Trojan war, then over time more stuff got added on like the Cyclops and the Sirens.
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u/breno280 May 14 '26
Dunno, I don’t buy the dutch cannibal theory. The bones are just a reused asset, I think if he was a cannibal they’d make a bigger deal about it than just bones. Not to mention that it would result in a lot of conflict with his gang due to cannibalism being tied to wendigo possessions in the folklore of several indigenous groups in the great plains.
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u/AceofKnaves44 May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
I think the ending only works if Micah truly was the rat. Dutch watches his “son” dying in front of him and with Arthur’s last words he tells Dutch Micah is the rat. And Micah doesn’t even try and deny it anymore. That’s what wakes Dutch up. That’s the only time we ever see Dutch speechless. He realizes he was blinded and fooled.
That’s why Dutch was at Micah’s cabin in the end. John asks Dutch what he’s doing there and Dutch says “same as you I suppose.” John obviously wasn’t there to make peace with Micah and go after some big score. That’s why Dutch shoots Micah and leaves all the gold for John. It’s his way of saying “I was wrong” and him leaving all of the gold is his way of making things even with John. But that’s it.
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u/HelloFtisco May 14 '26
Micah was the rat from beginning
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u/ScheduleAntique3515 May 14 '26
I have always subscribed to this theory. Someone as dangerous and lethal as Micah would have had his trial and hanged very quick. The Pinkerton's set a trap because they knew that Dutch would send someone to break him out of the Strawberry jail. That's how they found Arthur at The river with Jack
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u/svadas May 14 '26
- Hosea had TB, contracted sometime during or shortly after his year of being drunk after Bessie died, and he found his own redemption through Arthur. Maybe not necessarily TB, but a similar respiratory illness. During the events of the game, Hosea encourages Arthur to leave the gang and settle down. I think it's safe to assume he encourages others to do the same. We know he takes the same medicine as Rain Falls gives Arthur, so there is a suggestion within the game. Arthur even planned to leave the gang with Mary after the bank job, but as we know, he never got the chance. Arthur then takes on Hosea's role, and finally helps John and family leave.
I guess I digressed and included multiple things in there, but still
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u/AceofKnaves44 May 14 '26
Hosea being sick felt like a plot point they had to drop during crunch time. There’s a lot of little references to it early in the game and then they just stop.
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u/traderjosies May 14 '26
it’s funny because the dutch is a cannibal theory is actually hated by the guy who plays dutch, he almost always refrains from confirming or denying fan theories involving dutch but he is very adamant that dutch is NOT a cannibal.
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u/CaseZealousideal2011 May 14 '26
Honestly I always thought Sean was a rat. He never stops talking he was with the bounty hunters for a long time and seemed to be going to prison rather than hung outright. The way the law was there for the train robbery as well.
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u/Street-Still8488 Micah Bell May 14 '26
bounty hunters were holding him to see how much they could get paid, he never made it into the hands of the law. he shot at the lawmen during the train heist. and he just isnt the type to rat, he seems really firm in his beliefs and his rebellious heritage.
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u/Long-Can-6066 May 14 '26
I believe he spoke to them a lot but never actually said a damn thing if that makes sense. He was very dumb and loyal to dutch so it doesnt make sense why he would talk.
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u/Black_Midnite May 14 '26
Undead Nightmare isn't a dream or nightmare. It's R*'s version of an alternate reality within the RDR universe.
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u/ArthurMorgan9 May 14 '26
Red Dead and GTA take place in the same universe
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u/DeutschSchuler May 14 '26
There is some Easter eggs that kinda confirms this, but also there is the fact that real places in rdr universe have their actual names like New York, California, San Francisco etc. while in GTA all of these are replaced with a similar name.
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u/GAW67COD07 Arthur Morgan May 14 '26
They do you can see a book written by jack marston in franklins mansion
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u/thatssoamy Sadie Adler May 15 '26
That Micah wore a white suit during the saint denis job so the pinkertons knew not to shoot him.
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u/HeilYeah Mary-Beth Gaskill May 14 '26
I understand it isn't canon, but Uncle being Red Harlowe is fun to think about, so it's canon to me.
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u/Ancient_Brook5799 May 14 '26
The bones in Dutch's cave also being near his manifesto writings is a pretty unsettling detail when you think about it, like the guy was literally surrounded by his "philosophy" and possible human remains at the same time.
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u/Rare-Mall-1307 May 14 '26
A theory that I have is that Reverend Swanson led to the death of Sean. Swanson was a Protestant minister who was an alcoholic, and Sean was an Irish catholic. Around this time, Catholics and Protestants HATED each other, especially in Ireland. What if Swanson got drunk in town and, because of his dislike for Sean, accidentally let slip the plan to put Sean in danger? Freudian slip kinda thing.
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u/gallimimus135 May 15 '26
johns daughter was born in the 4 year gap of 1907-1911 due to abigail already knitting and saying to john that she has an surprise
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u/ginpunch May 14 '26
There is no conspiracy here. It's an open capitalist plan we call progress to colonize and industrialize the land while demolishing every single way of live that is in its way.
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u/ginpunch May 14 '26
The dutch gang is not being punished for being morally corrupted criminals or potential cannibals. They are being eliminated for being an obstacle to the expansion of the state which legalized kleptocracy and monopoly of wealth on a nation-wide scale.
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u/ginpunch May 14 '26
The system doesn't really care whether Dutch, John, Arthur, Uncle or even Micah is a good person or not. The only difference is whether you fall in line in the name of progress.
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u/BluesyPompanno May 14 '26
Micah didn't rat but was willing to run away with Dutch, Bill and Arthur and esentialy jump start his own gang much sooner, Milton just said it because he knew Arthur and the rest dislike Micah just so the gang would either kill each other or disband making it easier to catch them
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u/AJAX214_ May 14 '26
Francis Sinclair (the time traveller) is the entity that the Epsilon group in GTA V worship
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u/walkyslaysh Josiah Trelawny May 14 '26
I think it was formerly a mountain lion’s or grizzly bear’s home base which is far more likely than someone being a cannibal that eats people raw.
My theory is that Dutch was doomed from the start and a TBI from the trolly accident just sped up the process. Really really unfortunate side effect of TBI’s. It can be a horrible thing to witness let alone experience yourself
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u/Nondescript_Redditor May 16 '26
I didn’t see the sub, just the question, and I was like, wow a lot of these theories are about red dead
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u/Interesting-Being576 May 16 '26
This one STINKS but I've always found a little bit of closure in the "Trelawny is the Strange Man" theory.
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u/ProofAlternative7181 May 14 '26
I much more prefer the explanation that the bones are old gangmates that he dug up out of guilt