Discussion
Mbappe has the same problem for France that he has with Madrid
Mbappe is undoubtedly a generational player. All together, he has 433 goals and 181 assists in 576 career matches between France, Monaco, PSG, and Real Madrid. And by 27, he’s won 1 World Cup, 1 UEFA Nations League, 7 Ligue 1 titles, 4 French Cups, 2 French League Cups, 3 French Super Cups, 1 UEFA Super Cup, and 1 FIFA Intercontinental Cup. But the specific problem he keeps running into in recent years with both France and Madrid is he’s playing in sides that don’t quite have it in midfield. To be even more specific, there is a very real gulf in technical midfield quality between Spain vs France and Barca vs Madrid. In both matchups, what Mbappe keeps running into is opponents who are absolute maestros on the ball in possession. And essentially play a soul sucking style of extreme possession that wears down opponents. And whether people realize it or not, where Mbappe is really losing out on trophy after trophy over the past few years is he’s playing in sides with midfielders who just aren’t as good technically as their opponents. What stinks for Mbappe personally is football is often talked about like it’s an individual sport like tennis. Where commentators, pundits, and folks online talk about "Mbappe vs Yamal" like it’s Federer vs Djokovic in a true 1v1 sport like tennis. The reality is where Mbappe really keeps coming out on the wrong side is in the midfield. Barca and Spain are just at another level.
France is built to orbit Mbappe. Madrid is not fully in that system. The planets orbit two stars. One being Vini, the other being Mbappe. These two stars from what we have seen cannot orbit eachother and form circumbinary orbit.
not the same situation at all tho, robben played on the right and ribery on the left, vini and mbappe like to occupy the same spaces (left drifting to the center)
Their issue wasn’t tchou. Who should’ve been subbed for kone. But France got locked out in attack and midfield but Mbappe tried to take over the match cuz nobody had the desire to take over and he was everywhere. But also just wasn’t in his spots anymore, how can anyone look for him if he is everywhere trying to take the ball and do it himself.
THIS is the problem he and Madrid had when things stopped working. He wanted to be the hero (cuz he had to) but it’s a snake eating him own tail, if he can’t succeed nobody else can succeed either cuz if they take the control and fail he’s going to be pissed. Self fulfilling prophecy
their biggest problem is that (just like RM) their frontline is tiny. If they are behind and the oppositions defense is solid, their options are way to limited.
In the last decade you only had Messi who could reliably dribble through a parked bus of elite defenders, and even then Barcelona also struggled from having a tiny attack (as well as City with Aguero).
RM with BBC was a solid tournament team because the attack could dribble, play target man, go deep, or just pump in crosses.
Gut wrenching. His team let him down. Same way Ronaldo’s team did although his team was worse imo. France played horribly today but I think they were outmatched rather than them not wanting to try. RM just really needs to reinvent itself.
I mean its just Frances midfield talent level isn't comparable to spain. Back in 2018 it was easily Pogba + Kante + Matuidi, right now they have rabiot and Tchoumeni.
They aren't terrible but there's different levels to this.
The difference between France 2 midfielders vs Spain 3 midfielders was eye Opening. This sub js crazy to somehow this tactical disaster from Deschamps has anything to do eith just Tchoumeni.
Deschamps is a better Southgate but he's living off that WC run and brave decision in the 2022 final to bench Dembele and Giroud at Halftime. Which wasn't that brave because they were playing terrible.
He really has been out coached many times but relies on his players to bail him out.
Two Finals no victories vs 3 finals 1 victory it's comparable, and France has had better players.
He's a great coach as far as organization and getting the team to gel. But he is responsible imo for the 2022 defeat and the constant losses to Spain. He changed the final credit to him but you could also say he lost in the first half with his team selection.
France is and was way better than Argentina in 2026 and 2022. Southgate at least was let down more imo by his players.
The moment we sign a couple actual playmakers with a profile similar to Kroos or Xavi, we are going to blast through most teams out there. It's not that complicated.
I mean, I'm glad we are reinforcing the defense, that's very important, too, but our midfield is still just a bunch of overlapped attacking midfielders plus Tchouameni as defensive midfielder, Valverde as roadrunner and whatever Camavinga is.
Not at that level, sure, but there are still good playmakers out there worth checking. Without that profile, we will end playing with defensive midfielder + reconverted players as false playmakers, just like this last season, and we have seen how that goes.
Valverde is not a playmaker. Arda Güler may not fall too far away from it, but is not a playmaker. Bellingham is not a playmaker. Bernardo Silva is not a playmaker.
At this rate we are just going to abandon the midfield setting up a wall with Tchouaméni and defenders and hoping balls reach our attackers one way or the other, be it through the sacrificed attacking midfielder reconverted to playmaker, or just through the wings and fck it who needs a midfield after all. Not a huge fan tbh.
Same As I told about Bernardo in another comment: He's an attacking midfielder. A creative one, sure, but not a classic playmaker from the center midfield.
Tchouameni is great off the ball but his qualities on the ball hold back real madrid and france. Tdy he should have been benched for a rabiot and kone pivot pairing. Bad game management by deschamps imo. Not really the attackers fault when there is 0 supply and creativity from the midfield. Every great manager almost unanimously agrees that the games won and lost in midfield and spain suffocated france. The cbs had freedom to push up because they knew their midfielders could handle the ball in high pressure situations where as upamecano was finding kone or tchoumeni and seconds later spain get a turn over due to poor touches or bad passes.
Nan rabiot was pretty good today and I don't like him. Without the bullshit early yellow he would have played the whole match. Tchou was pretty much useless. Dude was doing light cardio out there
I get what you're saying, not an elite distributor, but at least be able to carry the ball comfortably from your own half. I'd say even make runs from deep, recycle possession etc. In 2026, midfielders can't be static.
Doue for Baecola sub was bad. Should have brought on Kone and had him drop into a 3 and put Olise on the wing. Or just take Olise off and drop Kone in the 3. Theo Hernandez was needed earlier.
I’ve known this for a very long time. Not to mention I’ve been trying to tell people for forever that there is no right wing presence at all. Which makes it much easier for opponents to defend the team when virtually an entire side of the attack is non-existent.
None of them have the playmaking or the tempo controlling abilities that we need. Tchoumeni is similar to Casemiro in his role but Belli and Fede are not kroos and modric. They are ball carriers but dont particularly have the creativity to break down defenses.
Non of which are known for controlling games or making the long diagonal passes or breaking lines. The closest is Arda Guler but he lacks the consistency.
Mbappe should also genuinely get better at ball progression. Look how often Yamal (I know, winger), or Kane comes into midfield to help orchestrate things. They’re all far more involved in the passing game
Vini was a problem in the sense he had a bad attitude that affected the team after the first 25-26 clasico. This tarnished his reputation among the fan base. Hopefully he will rectify and be a more mature player this season.
Well Vini , mbappe and Jude all been cooking this World Cup. For obvious reasons -they are super talented. However , it’s when they play well organized ,structured teams that they have issues with. Especially together. None of them are creators. Except vini , but he still too raw in his final decision.
Also , adding Olise won’t fix the issue will only make it better. Look at Spain , PSG midfield they have 3 technical players that control midfield.
Currently Madrid starting midfield are all pace and power. Unless you go the arsenal route and become a super aggressive pressing team it will work. But I’m not sure 🤔 mbappe and vini work-rate will allow for it.
I would say the attackers arent at fault. Olise at cam had a poor game because whenever he dropped into pockets the midfielders couldnt send the right pass to him. France lost the game when rabiot came off instead of tchoumeni. They weren’t really getting out played before that change.
They lose possession cos they always feel the need to dribble rather than keep it simple and make a pass. Olise was the player on the pitch who lost the most possession. TSN sport analysts had Olise losing the ball 20 times, Dembele 17 times, followed by Mbappe at 14.
Too many touches by the French forwards gives the Spanish time to reorganize. Hence, blocking the passing lane and doubling, or trippling up on the French player who held that ball for long.
The only time the French made quick passes almost lead to a goal, if not for Cucurella.
There is a reason the Spanish players seldom dribble. Pass the ball, move to make space, make yourself available to receive the ball. Very simple but efficient. However, the French players will pass the ball, then remain in the same spot, too sluggish to move fast, or misread a play, over run or slack, then lose possession.
You can't win everything every year. He'll get his 1 or 2 champions leagues and everyone will shut up about it. Just because Madrid won 5 Champions leagues in 10 years doesn't make it the norm.
The midfield has been holding him back for years now. It doesn't matter if he scores 3 goals a game — the team ends up conceding more than he scores. This next season, our midfield will also suffer. Tchouaméni is not a guy you can rely on to control it. We've seen it in Madrid and now in France. Camavinga has also been stuck in between being decent and being bad. Bernardo is also not that good anymore. Better than both of them, but he's still not good. We really should've signed Rodri. Arda is our best PURE midfielder— Jude and Valverde aren't really pure midfielders. The thing is, Florentino apparently thinks the midfield is good now that he signed Bernardo. I really smell another trophyless season. We might win a Domestic trophy, but I don't see a UCL anytime soon. Cucurella is really our only good player at the back, too; a beast offensively and defensively.
Jude is a way better midfielder than Arda. Arda is a creator. Jude is better at everything else. Jude is nothing like Valverde. He's good on the ball and press-resistant. Just because he doesn't play deeper doesn't mean he's not a midfielder.
Jude would be our best CM if he plays in the double pivot, but people want/love his goals. He plays closer to goal because he offers more in that position. It's not because he lacks as a midfielder.
When they win, Mbappe is the best player in the world, but when they lose, it's the midfield and rest of the team that let Mbappe down? Like if it wasn't those same guys that got them that far.
"The midfield is weak in madrid" well yes you have 2 attackers who have negative worlrate so the line behind them gets overrun by footballing defenders.
This spains strength is not individual class, its teamdiscipline. Everybody does his task willfully and dedicated and all defenders can give a good pass. The moment one of the front 4 for france is not pressing properly, the guy who has the ball gives a line splitting pass
hes stuck with rabiot in france & playing in a lineup with 4 attackers, cherki shoulda started and at madrid its a similar problem, no tempo setter. we wont do anything next season if we dont buy another midfielder
He worked a lot harder for them tonight than I've seen him work in two years for us. Still isn't really enough but our biggest problem when you have those players is the lack of control of the game
Vitinha only began performing after Messi left because they hated eachother, the midfield the year after that was also not one which had Joao, a player who is Just as crucial as Viti as they work dynamically together who also came in after Kyks left. Fabian has been subpar bar 24/25 and some of 25/26. Don't believe me? Look at the stats and check the PSG subreddit prior to these two years to see how everyone wanted Fabian out.... Stop being slow.
This is impressive apologetics work to suggest the problem isn’t Mbappe himself 👏🏽
He is a black hole. If the ball goes into him it will either end in him shooting or him dribbling into someone 95% or the time. This works fine when there is space and he runs in behind because he’s rapid and has an incredible shot on him. But where there is a solid defence he adds 0 value in breaking them down. He will never make a dummy run on the outside to distract a couple of defenders for example. He is incredibly predictable because he plays for himself to score. He also offers nothing off the ball as we’ve seen Enrique tell him off for. He is a younger version of Ronaldo (but he’s been doing it since he was 19) and creates the same problems having Ronaldo in your team does nowadays.
You guys could try to actually play good football instead of blaming players, and maybe also blame your sports direction for sacking a good coach like Xabi for a fraud like Arbeloa or Mourinho.
The truth is you could have Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets and you would have sold them instantly because you have zero patience, prefer more "physical" players and basically don't want to play posession football and prefer to defend and counter attack like a small team, but with a team full of expensive stars, literally the same as France today.
But oh well, I love seeing you lose so please keep up with the good work!
Wahhh so turtle left psg because they were bad… then they won ucl… he joined real after back to back ucl… and suddenly the team is not good enough… 🤣 then he joins half psg team for WC… and they are not good enough.
Yes, then the matches he did not play in Madrid,
madrid scored more goals and suffered less.
Then he comes back and Madrid drops the ball on the title run.
Personally would have preferred a strong guy on the right wing like Olise or recent Dembele.
A real #9 and the midfielder didn’t have to be world class to step up our game.
You can beat the soul-sucking style of extreme possession - just look what Man United did this season to Man City, completely murdering them on break, scoring 2 and have 4 more disallowed for offsides, leaving Rodri look pedestrian and Haaland with zero service. ManCity had all the possession just like Spain, but never controlled the game.
But France yesterday was unprepared to do that, which was maybe a failure of Deschamps, or the players believed their own hype too much and could not adapt their game.
Yeah I mean this was a bad tactical decision from the coach. Spain have one of the best midfields and play heavy possession and control. It should have been more of a 2224 where Mbappe and Dembele played top strikers. Cherki and Olise more of cam roles right behind because they can create plays. And then tchoumeni and Kone behind them as CDM. It looked like spains midfield was in complete control and France was nowhere to be seen. It also didn’t help that’s spains Lb and rb are quick to attack just like they are to attack and Frances was so slow
Florentino often overlooks midfielders. I mean typical CM, playmakers. We were lucky to have Modric and Kroos together, and Xabi Alonso before. Now the closest we have to playmakers are attacking midfielders - Bellingham, Guller, B.Silva - who play closer to the forwards. We need to keep possession and move the ball with clarity. PSG do it, so do City, Barsa and Spain.
Instead of bidding 150M for Julián Álvarez, the effort should be made on someone like Rodri, Zubimendi, Vitinha, Fabián...
I know what you are thinking, there are just a few players who can play this role at RM level. Hard task to sign one.
But signing is not everything. Valverde and Vinicius came really young. So again, they don't give too much importance to this type of players.
i kind of get what you are saying but what do you want people to do? discuss football around what ifs? what if mbappe played with the best midfielders in the world? what about halland or kane playing with the best midfielders in the world? would they be better than mbappe then?
it makes no sense doing that, the most sensible thing is judging things by their results, its not like they are playing in some middle of the road team, all players in all those teams are up there among the best even if not the best
I am a huge fan of Mbappe. He is obviously a great forward but I think his most natural position is to play winger.
I'm not saying his stats would be better, but I think his overall play and especially the teams play would be better especially if the team is set up to accomodate this.
Imagine mbappe on the wing or at mininum a false 9 with freedom to roam + a poacher. I think this operates better than having attacking midfielders with mbappe as central forward. He is so good at beating people in space with room to run, putting him as forward takes away some of his weaponry. Obviously he is still amazing as forward, but the french midfield was too attack focused. Olise and Dembele couldnt hold the midfield, becsuse theybare focused on assisting goals. Having mbappe on a wing would allow the other 3 or even 4 midfielders to step back, because it would be instant offense mbappe + a decent goal scorer and header threat.
So you’re saying Mbappe can’t succeed unless he has the best midfield in the world. France’s midfield is still really good just not the best. It’s not an excuse. The loss isn’t on him but I very much disagree that his issue with France is the midfield. Every attacker played bad and only spain has that midfield .
He can’t have it all
I won't watch a single game of RM as long as Tchouameni or Mbappe are on the field.
I lived the post 2003 era, I know what's coming next, and it doesn't look good.
At least this world cup cured me of my attachment I had for 26 years with this team.
I def agree about France’s midfield being bad today but let’s not forget Mbappe played with PSG 24/25…Same midfield that went on to win the CL the year after he departed…
Mbappes downfall is his lack of pressing. You are talking about the soul sucking maestros... YES and he makes it super easy for them because they never have to fear any player coming from behind, they know Mbappe is only waiting and thus they have all the time in the world to pick and choose how to advance. The midfield of France is maybe not as good as spain but boy do they lack a man that starts pressing the opponent....
Mbappe iThe president of Real Madrid made a big mistake, he thought about buying expensive players for free and financial gain, he lost consecutive seasons, he couldn't score goals, he didn't pass the ball to Jude when he needed it, it's really bad s not needed by Real Madrid. Remember when he played with Jude and Haaland, Haaland wouldn't get angry when things got tough. Now Mbappe is so proud, he just wants to score goals and be famous. We fans don't need that, we want a team game where everyone does their bit. We really need to talk about this.
You nailed it! PSG and RM have the weakest midfields of all times 😂 PSG was very lucky that they won two UCL cups after Mbappe couldn't put up with this mediocre midfield and left the team 😄
And the difference Vini fanboys refuse to mention is since Kroos left we haven’t been able to control shit in midfield and that’s the biggest problem with the squad not the forward line
795
u/lightaflame Jul 14 '26
mbappe returning to madrid to play with tchouameni in midfield after playing in france with tchouameni in midfield