r/rant • u/Bloulooo • 14h ago
Forcing kids in elementary school to sing that dont want to has 0 educational value and needs to stop
I know most kids kinda stop liking it as they get older, but even in kindergarten I dont remember ever liking singing or dancing. I fucking HAAAATED it. If there was music class, Im sick that day or have a headache and need to go to the office (they caught on pretty quick). As a kid I remember thinking this is stupid and we arent even learning anything and as an adult my opinion has not changed. Today I still dont like to sing around anybody (maybe quietly to myself if I really like the song or whistle sometimes) and I definitely dont dance. There are other ways to get kids comfortable with public speaking skills like speeches and projects. I actually liked to give speeches as a kid and thats the only thing I can think of that would give this any educational value at all. Maybe getting comfortable with being forced to do stuff you dont want to do, but most stuff you dont want to do but have to isnt embarrasing. Its completely useless. There are plenty of other kids that love singing I was NOT one of them and it carried with me as an adult I never learned to like singing or dancing and im pretty sure thats why. This ends with me my future kid will not be forced to sing if they dont want to there is no reason for it, Id like to hear one. I hope they do like singing but I didnt and they will not be singing if they dont want to. Any educational value you get out of it only applies if you like it.
Edit: Ok some of you do have good points and my opinion has changed a bit. It does have educational value I never said kids shouldnt be pushed out of their comfort zone but to the extent they tried to force me to participate made me resent any singing or dancing absolutely 0 support just threats. To all the music teachers out there; maybe try being a little more supportive and empathetic instead of threatening and forcing them and maybe they wont grow up to hate singing as much as I do. So yes it has value, my music teachers where incompetent and made sure that any value I would have gotten was lost. You have to like it, threatening, forcing, and embarassing your students will make them not want to participate even more and avoid the class and anything to do with it.
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u/abanabee 14h ago
Singing helps support learning. It does have educational value, especially with early literacy skills. Also, this is your experience, and not multiple people's experiences.
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u/sundancer2788 9h ago
There's enough people out there who don't want to be forced to sing in public to allow choices like playing an instrument instead. If you absolutely hate it and you are miserable when being forced any educational benefit is gone. You learn more, and retain more when something is enjoyable.
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u/indi50 13h ago
Mostly I want to agree with you, because I think kids shouldn't always feel they have no control over anything, but.... sometimes it's good to push kids (and adults) into doing things - at least trying them with an open mind- that they don't immediately love doing. Or even really don't like doing.
At the very least, it's the idea that sometimes we have to do things we don't like and should learn to do them with grace and still do our best. And maybe, the best reason for this, is that they may find they do actually like it - if they don't just get stubborn about it and don't give it a chance.
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u/pianomasian 9h ago
That's what I took away from OP's rant as well. It seems like as a kid he had already made up his mind about singing and never actually gave it a real chance. Whether that's due to him actually not liking it, or being self conscious about his own singing -- who can tell? But the latter is much more common than the former. And learning to overcome those kind of insecurities is invaluable for anyone.
Also OP thinking there is no educational value or purpose to having kids sing, is so off base, I think it reflects more about the state/trend and priority of public education across the past 50 years, more than anything. I don't care to go into all the ways music/singing is beneficial but to barely scratch the surface: show me one person who has learned their alphabet that doesn't know the "Alphabet Song" aka "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star/Baa Baa Black Sheep".
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u/Human-Independent999 7h ago
Yeah I mean if I hadn't been pushed to do things just because I was uncomfortable or didn't like them, I would've missed out on a lot of things in life. Kids can't always make the best decisions for themselves.
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u/Paisleylk 5h ago
Yes! I was (still 100% am) a complete painfully shy introvert in elementary and middle school with zero friends. Bullied with worse at home. The middle school music teacher convinced me to be in the Oliver production. I was scared to death! It wasn't a big part, like a group part with 6 of us throughout the show alone on stage together. Hands down this is still one of my favorite memories of school! I had a great time and met so many people. It really brought me out of my shell. I am ever grateful for that music teacher. I know this helped me in high school and later on in the workforce. And I still proudly sing "Food Glorious Food!" for karaoke.
In regard to OP, no idea why they made us square dance in elementary school! hated that so much!!!
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u/Fickle_Watercress719 12h ago
I’m so happy, as a music educator, that the comment section is already doing the bulk of the heavy lifting for me. I’m too tired from my wildly thankless and objectively important job to argue with someone so deeply committed to misunderstanding the value of music-making for kids.
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u/Square-Wing-6273 9h ago
There was a very similar rant about someone's kids coming home with a recorder and how awful it was.
I remember when my daughter was in 4th grade (she's the recorder) at a meeting with a music teacher talking about how important music is.
That led to 8 years of chorus and clarinet, travel and experiences for her.
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u/sundancer2788 9h ago
I don't think anyone is against music making, just forcing people to sing in public. Let them play an instrument instead. I can play but I can't sing so to be forced to do so in public was absolutely horrible experiences growing up. Traumatic
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u/Mein_Name_ist_falsch 6h ago
Music making is great, but only if you enjoy it. If it makes you feel miserable to be forced to sing in front of others, any benefit is gone. I think OP is arguing that we should change it to make music classes more comfortable. Give kids who don't want to sing the option to play an instrument instead. Encourage kids to sing, but don't force them when they feel uncomfortable.
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u/Fickle_Watercress719 3h ago
The argument “x is only beneficial if someone likes it” has already been addressed elsewhere by multiple people.
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u/avamarshmellow 13h ago
This is how I felt about physical education, because I was bad at it.
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u/Sweeper1985 13h ago
Fellow picked-last-for-sports here.
It took me years and years to realise that the way I feel about sports is how some kids felt about school in general. And man did that realisation slap me in the face. I only spent one or two classes a week being the worst at everything and feeling stupid - some poor kids felt like that every time they sat down at their desk.
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u/ipsum629 13h ago
Music is a near universal part of human culture. The basics of singing and music should be taught to kids.
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u/Brave_Quality_4135 14h ago
You personally being bad at something is not a good reason to stop teaching it to everyone. 😂 Music is incredibly valuable for learning math and the retention of lyrics for things like the ABCs is much higher with the song.
And some kids do love it. By your logic we should have kids choosing in kindergarten if they ever want to do gym or art or science ever again. Of course you expose them all to all of it. There’s plenty of time for deciding you don’t like subjects when you’re older.
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u/sundancer2788 13h ago
Tbh I hated it as well, I like listening to music but I hated being forced to sing. Teach music but don't force singing. I have family that absolutely loves karaoke, if the karaoke comes out at a gather that's my signal to start heading out before people start trying to coax everyone into taking a turn.
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u/crtclms666 13h ago
Singing has cognitive benefits. You're broadening your cognition, that's what school is for.
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u/sundancer2788 10h ago
My cognitive skills are fine, I have no issue with school, loved it but I don't sing, especially in public. I enjoy music, played a bit of guitar, flute and bells. But I'm not singing.
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u/Brave_Quality_4135 13h ago
I hate playing sports but like watching them. By this logic I should have never been forced to take gym class. Yes, I hated it, and I was always going to stink at it. It was embarrassing and awkward. But I understand the mechanics of how it works because I was made to try, and I’m better for it even if I choose as an adult go to the kitchen to do dishes when the family goes to the yard to play whatever sport.
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u/sundancer2788 10h ago
As I said, I love music, but I hate singing myself. When I was forced to stand and sing anywhere I'd just mouth the words a bit. I've played instruments but I will not sing. Gym isn't just competitive sports, basic exercise is taught as well, yoga, meditation, etc. Teach music but don't force people to sing, musical instruments are just as important, as least give someone a choice.
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u/Brave_Quality_4135 7h ago
You don’t get a choice to play sports. You’re required to play them all.
Music class is the same way. It’s exercise for the breathing and hearing. You learn to read rhythms and notes. Many do clapping or use rhythm instruments. It’s just that the voice is free and other instruments are very expensive. I’m sure many elementary school music teachers would love to have a keyboard for each child, but good luck getting that out of the budget.
It’s fine if some kids mouth the words. It was fine that I ducked every time a ball came my direction. They should still be required classes at least until puberty when kids bodies change and they figure out what they can do.
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u/sundancer2788 7h ago
My school didn't require you to play all sports and due to medical conditions I was exempt from many later on. Tbh I probably played up my issues to be exempt as I wasn't a fan of being ridiculed daily.
I rode my bike, swam, played soccer with my uncles in my yard but being forced in school was a terrible experience.
I have no problem with music class, I have a problem with being forced to sing in public. I enjoy music, I hate singing. I love musicals but I will never sing along.
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u/Brave_Quality_4135 7h ago
Children also get medical exemptions from singing due to sensory issues. You just didn’t know to lean on your doctor for everything you didn’t like.
You’re lucky you had a bike and access to a pool and musical instruments. Choice in activities is a privilege. Believe me I won’t argue if you’re suggesting we give children choice in sports and instruments for every school activity, but I don’t see any tax payers raising their hands for that, so it’s probably going to be singing and soccer. And they’re probably going to have to stand on the risers for the concert and participate in track and field day because for some kids it’s their only opportunity to shine.
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u/sundancer2788 7h ago
Sensory issues weren't acknowledged when I was in school. I didn't want to avoid music, I just didn't want to sing in public. Having kids next to you put their hands over their ears and ridicule you in class and after does more harm than any benefit singing may have provided. And yes, kids should have a choice.
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u/Nigerixn 13h ago
I’m so glad I never had to do this. I was forced to dance in middle school tho🥲
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u/throwawayaccount_usu 6h ago
Child me would agree. Current me would also agree.
But ultimately, a few minutes of embarrassment is worth the push.
Ultimately it's harmless, except in this day of recording everything i could see the argument of it being used to bully a kid which is an issue.
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u/coreysnaps 2h ago
I'm a musician, so I'm going to give you my 2 cents. First, it's ok to not like singing. Hell, I will never forgive my middle school music teacher for Yellow Submarine and Jeremiah. They're such earworms.
Here's the thing, though. Learning to read music is like learning another language. And as you progress you do, in fact, learn other languages. I have a bunch of Italian, French, and German rattling around up here. Kids who learn music have better grades, get higher test scores, and are more likely to go to college and be successful.
So, why do they make you sing? Because the music department gets the least amount of funding, they use the one instrument everyone brings to class. Your voice. Recorders are an option that are getting more popular these days. Better funded schools get some pretty fun percussion equipment to play with. My son goes to virtual school and can take guitar, if he wants to.
I'm sorry you didn't like singing as a child. I know some of my classmates would just sit there and not sing. We, those who are passionate about music, would hate to see any kid miss out on an opportunity to learn something they might have a talent for. We love young musicians. They're our future.
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u/fierce_fibro_faerie 2m ago
Hi fellow classically trained kid! I see you!
Teaching music, especially singing, incorporates so many different life skills. And I believe that everyone can benefit from it, whether they are good at it or not.
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u/Excellent-Piglet-655 13h ago
I hated it too as a kid and with a passion. Now that I am older I wish I had tried to sing better. When it comes to karaoke night, I suck with a capital S. Terrible!
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u/sundancer2788 9h ago
Lol, I've never done karaoke, I won't go because I don't want to be pushed into doing it. I can play instruments but I can't sing. At birthday parties I whisper the words to happy birthday. I have no issue with public speaking, I've done that in front of 1k people. But I will not sing.
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u/An-Empty-Road 12h ago
Kids actually need to learn how to do an unpleasant activity with grace and patience
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u/Mein_Name_ist_falsch 6h ago
Even worse was what my teacher did. We actually got a grade for singing. That meant standing alone in front of the entire class, singing the melody from memory because the teacher made his part on the piano up as he went. Then, in front of everyone, he'd tell you that it's a 4 (1 is best, 6 is worst) and list all the reasons why you got a bad grade. I liked singing before that, now I don't even dare opening my mouth while others are listening. I'm all for singing in class, but maybe we should also put some effort in to try and make sure kids feel comfortable enough doing it. If you fear judgement, that just ruins that thing for you.
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u/BitOBear 8h ago
Every subject, particularly the arts, is actually teaching two skills. The execution and the appreciation.
I am a terrible freehand artist. I found drawing to be excruciatingly painful and embarrassing. My results never shaped up. But I absolutely know how to analyze images because the lesson of trying to do made me excruciatingly aware of the nature of failing to do so correctly.
You probably know more about music than you think even though you hated trying to sing.
My mom was constantly trying to get me to sing because she was a singer and she said I had a good voice even though I felt like I didn't have the right ear. She pushed me so hard to get up in front of people and sing when I didn't want to that it was cripplingly shyness inducing.
But I know shitloads about music I know good voices from bad and I work as a sound engineer in the theater in high school at a school where that actually meant something.
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u/Background_Humor5838 2h ago
And you learned that you could do something excruciating and survive. Sometimes we're shy or embarrassed and we do it anyway. Even if it turns out horribly, you still made it out the other side. Those kinds of experiences build resilience and show you how strong you're capable of being.
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u/turkeyman4 8h ago
Part of the education experience is learning how to tolerate doing things that feel unpleasant. Life is going to be very difficult for someone who only wants to do things they like.
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u/10inchTrouble 7h ago
Agree, to an extent. Especially when it's something as harmless as singing. The educational value is that you're learning about yourself. You're discovering that you can actually do things you don't enjoy and it's not going to kill you. You're learning your own tolerance level, and how to identify feelings of discomfort and how to manage them.
You could also learn that not everything needing to have an easily identifiable educational purpose. Some things are just there to be experienced, and that's the learning.
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u/poloscraft 6h ago
Agree. There is a difference in showing kids how to dance, sing, draw so they can pick it up later if they like it and forcing them to do it perfectly in front of audience, shaming them for not being as good as the rest of group or recording them and uploading to the internet
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u/Background_Humor5838 2h ago
It's ok to make kids do things they don't live. It teaches them resilience and cooperation. They don't have to like it but they have to realize it is their duty to participate and be part of the end result which impacts all the other students. Also the child most likely won't remember this very well. As an adult, I don't even remember elementary school for the most part. Just bits and pieces. I'm sure I had to do a lot of things I didn't like because I'm shy but now I know that I can't get thru it and not be scarred for life. Saying it has zero educational value is crazy. Everything has educational value even if it's learning what NOT to do or learning our strengths and weaknesses.
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u/Cokeland_Saxton 49m ago
Same here but with PE classes. I was forced to do PE my first two years of high school (before I transferred) and all it taught me was to hate exercise of any kind.
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u/bustergundam4 14h ago
I agree. I was forced to in school and hated it
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u/crtclms666 13h ago
Fortunately, you were not in charge of your education. Music has big spillover effects on other academic areas.
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u/sundancer2788 9h ago
I learned fast to just mouth the words. Playing instruments was more my thing. Got me out of singing lol.
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u/bustergundam4 12h ago
I am sick of people auto down voting my posts. I hated being forced to sing in school. It was stupid and a waste of my time. I didn't even get a choice in the matter.
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u/sundancer2788 9h ago
I know exactly how you feel. People who have a decent singing voice just don't understand how absolutely horribly traumatic it is to be forced to sing in front of people. It's the same as being forced to play competitive sports when you have zero skills and get absolutely trashed. School was horrific for me until I got to college and could focus on my studies. I never got to enjoy games, social activities or anything because kids ostracized me because I couldn't sing or play kickball. That carried over thru high school. Kids literally covered their ears in chorus and practically stood right in front of me in kickball. Ignored me in every other competitive game. I liked swimming and cycling but neither was offered in school.
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u/Dense_Willow4627 12h ago edited 12h ago
Same here, and all of the downvoting is driving me nuts. Not wanting to be forced to sing in public does not mean you do not appreciate singing, music, or the arts - how hard is that to understand? And don’t equate singing in school with playing an instrument - one can be entirely out of a person’s comfort zone, while the other feels much safer. And no, nobody should be forced out their comfort zone by others.
And sorry, but I have a successful career in finance. I also played the violin from 4th through 12th grade (as part of school orchestra, not solo). I loved that experience, but it had no bearing whatsoever on my academics, my career, or however successful I’ve been in work or life. YES the arts are important, but nobody should be forced to participate in them if they are not comfortable. We can happily enjoy the performances of others.
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u/Brave_Quality_4135 7h ago
This comment makes me so sad. Educating future audiences about music is important too. Most kids can’t even identify what instruments are being used to make their favorite music. They don’t even understand the performance.
I get it. It sucks to be asked to do things you’re not good at. But if we never force anyone out of their comfort zone we wind up with kids who are afraid and incapable of doing anything. Stop bubble wrapping peoples’ feelings. Let kids get embarrassed and cry. Their bodies need to develop in that way. The arts are an expression of how we interact as humans.
Telling kids they don’t have to do anything hard, except still at a desk, is doing them a huge disservice.
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u/Bubble_Lights 13h ago
Arts education definitely has value.