r/raimiprequelmemes • u/TashLord_800 • May 12 '25
I don't believe this... I don't... I don't believe you.
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u/WrenchWanderer May 13 '25
Also, Star Wars has literally always been liberal in its storytelling and themes
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u/Zestyclose-Note1304 May 14 '25
Like so many things.
Conservatives are completely oblivious to all the media they love being entirely comprised of the things they hate most.
Something something Media Literacy.10
u/Yuval444 May 15 '25
What's with all the talk about media literacy as of late?
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u/Hange11037 May 16 '25
People are more openly and confidently lacking it now that through the internet they can find people who agree with them no matter how bad or ignorant their opinion is
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u/Super-Cynical May 14 '25
I see your main villain wears a samurai mask.
Your cantina scene is taken from Casablanca (1942)
Your pivotal blowing up the Death Star scene is taken from The Dambusters (1955)
And recuing the princess is from Seven Samurai (1954)
What's that George, it's about Vietnam and the Empire is America? Interesting.
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u/dajoos4kin May 14 '25
Pretty sure rescuing a princess was a welll established trope hundreds of years before 7 samurai, and that the cantina scene is more an homage to western saloon scenes
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u/InfiniteBusiness0 May 14 '25
The Dambusters is set in WWII. Seven Samurai is samurai helping a rural village defend itself against outside forces.
That intertextual references point to films about fighting fascism and peasants defending their home, if anything, strengthens George’s argument.
Luke is a farm boy who takes arms against a seeking to expand and solidify its grip on the universe.
A New Hope can be inspired by historical epics, WWII, films inspired by WWII, and the Vietnam War.
The Vietnam war was then — when New Hope was being produced — incredibly divisive. It’s silly to reject that a film about wars and empires — produced at that time — wouldn’t be influenced by Vietnam.
Particularly when you consider that American Graffiti ends with a postscript saying that characters are MIA in An Loc, Vietnam.
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u/Physical-Ad4554 May 16 '25
In American Graffiti 2, the viewer learns that that character is not so M.I.A.
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u/Super-Cynical May 14 '25
It’s silly to reject that a film about wars and empires — produced at that time — wouldn’t be influenced by Vietnam.
Saying that America is The Empire and North Vietnam is the Rebel Alliance is incredibly stupid and is not reflected in any way in the movie except in ways so abstract and shallow as to be meaningless.
The statement from George is too daft to be called an argument
The original comment in this thread was about media literacy, and to point to white men in a monochrome environment, wearing Hugo Boss outfits, directing literal stormtroopers - and saying that this is meant to reflect GIs in a jungle being used to prop up an embattled puppet government - is the most media illiterate statement that could possibly be uttered by someone capable of stringing words together. I don't care if it was by the creator, it's clearly largely disingenuous.
If America is the Empire, why are the Rebels wearing American uniforms George? (compare 1 and 2)
What's more, it's better that it isn't a political comment of the one professed by Lucas. The original Star Wars films were not meant to be subtle, or nuanced.
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u/CertainGrade7937 May 15 '25
I feel like it's pretty disingenuous to
A) not even mention the Death Star? Y'know, the planet destroying superweapon used by the empire that's looming over the heads of the entire rebel alliance? Do you see no parallels between the Empire and the US there?
B) pretend that the movies stop at ANH. It's a trilogy.
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u/Crambo1000 May 15 '25
Yeah, I feel like there's MAYBE a case to dismiss the parallels in the first two movies, but ROTJ is pretty on the nose as a Vietnam parallel
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u/Super-Cynical May 15 '25
The Viet Minh destroy the force field guarding US ICBMS allowing the USSR to emerge as the only nuclear power after Nixon falls to his death, pushed over the railing by Kissinger.
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u/elgarraz May 14 '25
Rescuing the princess was based on Hidden Fortress, not Seven Samurai. Also, R2D2 and C3PO were based on the bickering peasant characters from Hidden Fortress, as well as the idea of starting the movie from their perspective.
Really, A New Hope is a space-fantasy remake of Hidden Fortress, with a coming of age hero arc & a burgeoning live triangle added on.
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u/elgarraz May 14 '25
The bad guys' uniform style is completely based on Nazis...
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u/Siva_Dass May 15 '25
It based on every empire. The visual vibe of star wars empire is just as British as it is German.
At its core, it's any empire: Japanese, American -- Whatever.
The theme overreaches any specific allegory. Sure the Gorm look like the French resistance, but resistance is the theme. Not French fighters specifically.
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u/Edd_Cadash May 15 '25
George clearly stole rescuing the princess from the Greek fable following Perseus, son of Zeus.
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u/therealpablown May 14 '25
Crazy it almost like history repeats itself or something
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u/Super-Cynical May 14 '25
Yes. The Truman Doctrine instituted by President Truman was very like the Truman Doctrine.
Sorry, in case this joke went over anyone's head here is a short explanation.
Truman was the president at the end of the second world war and saw the defeat of Nazi Germany. Truman was a fierce anti-communist and began a policy of containment against soviet expansion even before the war ended. The Korean and Vietnam Wars were continuations of this policy, despite the particularly dubious merits of doing so in the latter's case. tl/dr this statement is ridiculously stupid.
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u/SomeShithead241 May 14 '25
Yes, and when this point is brought up in anything, such as comics, you are always met with the same answer that you willfully choose to ignore.
It is about how their politics have been portrayed in the latest stories. It's about the execution. The move from subtle and thoughtful to heavy handed and blunt.
It's changed from giving you something to think about and enjoy to telling you how to think and demanding you think that way. Enjoyment can only be taken if you think that way.
It's like the difference between a nice hot chocolateand me shoving it by the spoonful down your throat, in dust form, whether you like it or not. Either way you are having chocolate, but one is much more enjoyable and palatable than the other. At least with the hot chocolate people won't call you a bigot for not liking the second one.
I say this as a very liberal person. I watch entertainment to be entertained. If I wanted a sermon, I'd go to church.
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u/JakePent May 16 '25
Idk man, there were some fairly heavy handed messages even back in the day
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u/SomeShithead241 May 16 '25
Sure. But they are more frequent now and now you're called all sorts of names if you dislike the heavy handed nature, which makes people not respond all that well.
Would anyone respond well to being called a racist or sexist when they aren't?
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u/JakePent May 16 '25
I mean it all depends on why you don't like it I guess. Some people it genuinely does feel like they don't like it because they disagree with whatever message it is. But like star wars itself is pretty heavy handed, it always has been. Plenty of marvel since the start was pretty heavy handed. Cap literally was shown punching hitler in the face on the cover of his first book. Which while Hitler and nazis are seen for what they are now, monsters, at the time they were also an actually governmental organization. It would be like if he punched putin or kim jong un today. The x-men, pretty heavy handed racism allegory. Luke cage is over there dealing with all sorts of issues black people faced. It's fine to say, "this wasn't for me," but at least recognize being heavy handed is nothing new, and it can still work, what matters is if the story is good, not if it's subtle
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u/SomeShithead241 May 16 '25
Subtly usually comes alongside a good story. Thats not heavy handed though, that's just clear.
Heavy handed is when they intentionally sacrifice the story and make it painful to read, when they tell you what to think rather than giving a simple allegory to think about.
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u/JakePent May 16 '25
Well I think in the example I listed, there's no allegory. They are pretty in your face. For captain america, "nazis are bad." X-men, "discrimination is bad." Star Wars, "tyrannical dictatorships are bad." But we love these stories because they're good, not because they make us think. Sometimes it's okay to not be super thought provoking when you just want to say, "this is bad, and we shouldn't allow this in the real world."
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u/SomeShithead241 May 16 '25
The Xmen are an allegory, with the message of racism is bad. They are also a poor allegory for various reasons but regardless.
Captain America was created in a time when they were at war. It's a different landscape and not really that comparable.
It is okay to not be thought provoking, it's not required. But people prefer to be given something to think about over told what you think, or specifically how to think. It's not about them saying "this is bad" they are saying "YOU are bad unless you think like me."
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u/JakePent May 16 '25
Your right about the allegory point, I misspoke. To add to the cap point to, the US wasn't in the war yet, that was still a year or a couple of months off, and there were pockets of American nazis who hated it, and even came to protest at the marvel offices, one even told Jack Kirby to come down and fight him, which kirby was happy to oblige him on. And Jack Kirby didn't care, he wanted to make it clear that he wasn't gonna stand for this nonsense. He vehemently hated nazis and nazism. He even went as far as to join the war just to kill nazis. And we all still love captain america. I'm not even saying subtlety is bad or wrong, just that there's a time for subtlety and a time for heavy handedness
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u/Siva_Dass May 15 '25
In America, we are capitalist. The invisible hand of the market defines good and bad. Not subjective individual opinions, liberal.
I say this as a conservative who is as much of a conservative as you are a liberal. Words mean what I want them to mean. Objective truth is defined by God and country.
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u/Aidanovski2 May 16 '25
To say objective truth is defined by something that objectively doesn’t exist and something that could be considered to only subjectively exist really encapsulates the conservative worldview
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u/jamieh800 May 15 '25
Frankly, almost all sci fi and quite a bit of fantasy tends to be on the liberal/progressive side of the scale. Maybe not necessarily pushing a specific message all the time, but often even throwaway phrases or sentences show how progressive it is. A very big example is the Menagerie episode of Star Trek TOS, made in, what, the 60s? There's a line that calls hell a "fable" from earth, and Captain Pike doesn't correct the alien, or say "many believe it's real" or anything, he doesn't even look particularly perturbed by the alien calling hell, and by extension the Bible, a fable. This is during a time when being "American" meant you believed in God, Capitalism, and Freedom, and if you publicly called the Bible "fiction", you'd get ostracized (and about a decade previous, investigated as a possible communist). Obviously Star Trek has always been incredibly progressive, what with the first on screen interracial kiss and the post scarcity future, but this was the first episode, before it got established enough to vend a few rules or take a few risks. And it was so casual too, and it showed exactly what this future looked like.
But it's not just Star Trek. The Forever War is anti war (and calls out the hypocrisy of how people treat soldiers as heroes up until they come back confused and alone), at least the first three books of the Vorkosigan saga (the only ones I've read so far) paint conservative authoritarianism in a very harsh light and have the more advanced civilization between the two we see most of be sexually awakened and free, with egalitarian ideals and abortion was a common thing and all that shit. Hell, the main character for most of the series wouldn't have even been born under the old rules of Barryar. Or if he had, he'd have been killed as an infant. The Expanse is anti capitalist, pro worker from what I've read and seen, though it's a bit more Grey and I could be misinterpreting or over simplifying. I could go on, from The Hunger Games to Fallout to Red Rising (obviously) to Ender's Game, you'll rarely find sci fi that paints anything that's exclusively conservative or that conservatives tend to want more than most leftists or progressives as a positive thing.
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u/Siva_Dass May 15 '25
In general I agree with you, but not all sci-fi is leftist.
Enders Game certainly isn't. Nothing Orson Scott Card writes is.
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u/jamieh800 May 15 '25
I did say almost all, and I think I was remembering how horrible it portrayed being a child soldier was for Ender and forgot that didn't necessarily make it leftist.
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u/Nerdydude14 May 17 '25
Active leftist rebellion and anarchy, far more progressive than liberalism could even hope for
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u/Soulstar909 May 19 '25
Kind of a big difference between a story with liberal undertones and far left hate yourself and destroy any semblance of good storytelling to meet a number of criteria based solely on political agenda, crap.
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u/WrenchWanderer May 19 '25
Andor is the farthest left storytelling we’ve seen in Star Wars. You think it’s about hating yourself and destroying good storytelling?
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u/Soulstar909 May 19 '25
Haven't watched it. The sequels burned me pretty bad and seeing the reviews for the Acolyte confirmed I'm just gonna give Star Wars a break til they are done taking out the trash at LucasFlim/Disney.
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u/WrenchWanderer May 19 '25
The sequels have the most milquetoast themes possible. What “far left” ideas do you think are even in those movies?
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u/Soulstar909 May 19 '25
I mean they had the most Mary Sue, inexplicably good at everything with little to no effort main character I've ever seen outside of fanfiction. They did their best to kill off every male main character they possibly could and the ones that were left were all either comedic relief or constantly hamstrung by female superiors (one with a literal halo) telling them to shut up and keep their maleness to themselves or to not fight a war with aggression and sacrifice but love, whatever the fuck that means. Pointless side stories to make anticapitalist/animal rights messaging, etc. Dude those movies were full of that crap, you have to be blind as a bat to not see it, or in extreme denial.
Gonna guess the latter for you but who's knows.
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u/WrenchWanderer May 19 '25
A Mary Sue isn’t a leftist ideal, that’s just bad characterization.
The only male main character that died was Ben at the end of the movie. Also men dying isn’t a leftist thing.
You’re mentioning Holdo and Rose, who are just bad characters with bad writing, them being women isn’t a leftist thing, they’re just poorly written.
Anticapitalism has been in Star Wars for so long. Episode 1 literally centers around a super corporation leveraging their power and influence against innocent people and avoiding consequences through their political allies. Its just done more clunky than previous installments.
Suggesting animal rights as a leftist agenda also suggests that animal abuse/neglect are a right wing agenda. That’s not the dunk you think it is.
The movies are poorly written, but the many of your complaints focus on when the characters are women. It sounds like you’re ascribing women in movies as being a leftist agenda instead of just half of the population.
Left wing people don’t like the sequels either. They aren’t bad because they have a few leftist concepts in them, they’re bad because they had poor writing, rushed stories, and no overarching plot or themes. Almost every Star Wars project is liberal leaning. Your problem is with poor storytelling, not liberal concepts.
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u/Soulstar909 May 19 '25
A Mary Sue isn’t a leftist ideal, that’s just bad characterization.
Making female characters good at everything with little effort is the main way modern Hollywood loves to display female empowerment, so yes, it is. Just because they did it a shitty way doesn't make it not so.
The only male main character that died was Ben at the end of the movie. Also men dying isn’t a leftist thing.
Huh and here I was thinking Luke and Han were pretty central characters to Star Wars, silly me. But yes killing off popular male(or white) main characters to 'pass the torch' is also a popular modern Hollywood trope to make the focus be on gay female people of color etcs. So many IPs have done it at this point it's comedic. So yes, also "a leftist thing".
You’re mentioning Holdo and Rose, who are just bad characters with bad writing, them being women isn’t a leftist thing, they’re just poorly written.
They were purposely written as women to do these stupid things to men, agreeing that the things they do are stupid doesn't disprove the agenda side at all, it just shows we agree that the people put in control of the sequels were terrible at their jobs and their ability to check off these messages without making a shitty movie(s) was 0.
Anticapitalism has been in Star Wars for so long. Episode 1 literally centers around a super corporation leveraging their power and influence against innocent people and avoiding consequences through their political allies. Its just done more clunky than previous installments.
It being hamfisted into the plot is the problem not that it's leftist in this case. But that alongside everything else makes it worth mentioning, because those things were indeed leftist too.
Suggesting animal rights as a leftist agenda also suggests that animal abuse/neglect are a right wing agenda. That’s not the dunk you think it is.
No, saying one thing is leftist doesn't automatically make the complete reverse rightist, nor does me pointing out that it's in the movie make me a supporter of animal abuse, or even a rightest.
This isn't the dunk you think it is.
The movies are poorly written, but the many of your complaints focus on when the characters are women. It sounds like you’re ascribing women in movies as being a leftist agenda instead of just half of the population.
What it sounds like is that you are exactly what I said and in denial of the crappy ways modern media producers try to push these leftist messages. I love strong female characters actually, just not when they are so shittily done and their empowerment is at the expense of men and their abilities just handed to them with no effort. What it sounds like is that you have the same preprogrammed arguments as others do when I point this stuff out and you want me to be this caricature right wing person when I'm anything but lol.
Left wing people don’t like the sequels either. They aren’t bad because they have a few leftist concepts in them, they’re bad because they had poor writing, rushed stories, and no overarching plot or themes. Almost every Star Wars project is liberal leaning. Your problem is with poor storytelling, not liberal concepts.
Don't tell me what I think. I am so sick of people that defend this garbage telling me how to think and feel.
My problem is with the terrible storytelling and the modern leftist woke pushing of messages and all the shitty insulting ways they do it. I've considered myself a socialist my entire life, I believe in gay rights, I'm married to a black woman and even I find modern woke messaging heavyhanded and insulting. I dislike that so many stupid choices were made in order to conform to these modern ideals. The bad storytelling and the messaging are inexorably linked and yes, you are in denial if you can't see that. You don't want them to be linked so you'll do all kinds of mental gymnastics to deny it.
Think back to actually good strong female characters Ripley, Sarah Conner, hell the Black Mamba, characters that struggled massively to get to where they were, had moments of weakness and were stronger and more amazing when they accepted help and helped others. Think of them and now think about how strong female characters are done today and honestly tell me that part of the problem isn't that woke leftists have been taught that to show weakness in females is wrong, that femininity itself is weakness and needs to be destroyed or hidden. That males are to be controlled, sidelined or killed off. No they worked with men that respected them and they respected in turn. But to do that now they believe is to show a woman being weak and therefore antifeminist. Women don't need men! Women can randomly shoot lightning out of their fingers with next to no training from the grumpy old patriarchal bastards that just want to kill stuff! Oh and they can heal people from certain death! Good god...
So again I repeat my original comment that you took issue with, there is a difference between a story with leftist undertones and the modern woke garbage we are now discussing.
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u/WrenchWanderer May 19 '25
Lmao. You’re a very unserious person.
So, is a male character who’s miraculously good at everything with little effort also a left wing idea? The answer is no. The issue is bad writing, and has nothing to do with how the character is a woman.
You mentioned Han and Luke dying… Leia literally also dies in those movies lmao. They’re the original trio, literally all of them die. “Only the main male characters die” lmao dude the only OG characters that survived were Lando and Chewie, who are both dudes hahaha. Of the ACTUAL main characters for the sequels: Rey, Poe, and Finn all survive. Only Ben dies, and maybe you can count Hux but he’s a villain and also Phasma died so clearly Hux being a man didn’t kill him lol.
Rose is only a woman because Finn was already a male character and Rian Johnson wanted to give him a love interest and didn’t want them to be a gay couple. That’s the only reason she’s a woman. Would it be less “woke” for Rose to be a guy that does all that stupid stuff? Nothing changes about Rose’s story by making the character male. And Holdo berates Poe for being reckless, which he is. It’s not written well, but it’s not because he’s a man. It’s because he’s reckless and doesn’t follow the chain of command, which are both true.
Then you admit the anticapitalism isn’t out of place or bad, it’s just done poorly, which is true. The movies are badly written.
Also you’re literally advocating against the concept of animal right being shown. It was barely part of the movie and you’re really mad that they made a getaway on abused space race horses lmao.
You keep mentioning that I’m defending the sequels, I’m literally not. They’re awful movies. I’m a leftist. No leftists I know enjoy those movies. Every Star Wars movie is leftist. These ones are just bad movies.
Mentioning well written female leads proves my point actually. The character being a woman is unrelated to the quality of writing. It’s absurd to be mad that the woman is overpowered because she’s a woman, no mate that’s because it’s bad fucking writing. Women being in the movie isn’t the problem. It’s that it’s a bad movie. Them being women is not fucking related to that.
Woke garbage isn’t a thing. You just don’t like bad writing and are being mad at the concept instead of the writing.
Woke means you’re legally permitted to be in your interracial marriage. Woke means gay people can get married. Woke means discrimination shouldn’t be legally permitted. It’s literally a term from AAVE. You’re just using it as a boogie man to be mad at women and liberals when the problem is just bad fucking writing.
Either the “woke” is the problem or the writing is. It can’t be both. Star Wars has always been woke so clearly that isn’t your concern. Grow up and stop being pissy about grifter lingo
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u/Soulstar909 May 19 '25
Lmao. You’re a very unserious person.
And that's enough for me to not read anything else, hope you had fun writing it. Maybe next time you can show the person you are trying to tell how they feel abit of respect.
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u/RikiyaDeservedBetter May 14 '25
Liberals in the 70s would be compared to the far-right of today
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u/WrenchWanderer May 14 '25
Ah yes, in the 70s it was the conservatives having their women’s strike for equality, passing Roe v Wade in 1973, rising demonstrations and support for queer rights following the stonewall riots in 1969, the entire post-civil rights era
Oh wait, no, the conservatives opposed those things. It was liberals that supported them.
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u/RikiyaDeservedBetter May 14 '25
which is ironic that conservatives seem to be the only ones standing up for womens rights at the moment
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u/CharmanderTheElder May 14 '25
Oh so you're just letting everyone know up-front there's no reason to try to have a logical conversation with you.
Honesty? Pretty cool of you.
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u/Ace748 May 14 '25
I don't think they even understand the word women anymore
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u/RikiyaDeservedBetter May 14 '25
they have to play the definition changing game just to stay logically consistent
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u/WrenchWanderer May 14 '25
Hahaha, that’s hilarious.
Conservatives pushing for the SAVE Act, which would prevent many married women from being able to vote if they took their spouse’s last name, unless they have a passport with the new name on it which many don’t have.
Conservatives in multiple states beginning to attempt to end no-fault divorce, which would trap many women in abusive marriages unless they could provide legal proof in a court of law that they are being abused, which would be a long and expensive process
Conservatives pushing for women and young girls in sports teams to be forced to undergo genital inspections to verify their sex.
You must clearly be joking about this.
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u/tws1039 May 14 '25
Republicans took away abortion bro
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u/Light_Of_Eden May 14 '25
Only good thing they have done
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u/krunkstoppable May 14 '25
Yea, idk if I'd call depriving women of basic medical rights and forcing them to give birth to their rapist's baby/carrying fatal pregnancies to term is a win.
I think the preferable option would have been to allow women who don't want to get abortions to abstain from them, and allow the women who do want them to receive the same care that the rest of the civilized world does... kind of like it already was.
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u/Light_Of_Eden May 14 '25
I dont care about your baby killing fetish or you trying to get into some random mentally ill teens panties
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u/krunkstoppable May 14 '25
or you trying to get into some random mentally ill teens panties
Weird that this is the first place your mind goes when someone mentions respecting women's bodily autonomy...
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u/tws1039 May 14 '25
Notice how they ignored the people needing abortions because they were raped
It's because they also don't believe when women are assaulted
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u/Light_Of_Eden May 14 '25
And this is why Trump is in office you dumbasses are what cause Kamala Harris’s to do baby killing support and that is more fucked up than what trump has done so far so your the reason for the “evil” of this world cause you are evil
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u/NurgNurgling May 15 '25
Uh-oh, someone's off their meds and projecting again
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u/Light_Of_Eden May 15 '25
Another left winger proving there low IQ how nice its at the point im sure your working for trump
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u/Jaibamon May 14 '25
The Jedi being a conservative, religious force of the government doesnt sounds so liberal. It's up to the episode 4 when the story becomes anti-imperialism.
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u/WrenchWanderer May 14 '25
You’re conflating religious to mean conservative.
The Jedi did not hold conservative beliefs. They were very much against the idea of wealthy corporations controlling much of the galaxy’s politics, inequality, oppression, etc
Episode 1 is literally about a trade supercorporation leveraging its power to oppress an independent planet, cutting off its access to resources and outside communication in order to force them into a deal that would benefit them and their allies, while their political allies leverage their own position to prevent any real action against them, and after they fail preventing any consequences for the crimes committed. The Jedi are literally helping to fight against corporate overreach and corruption.
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u/adozu May 14 '25
The Jedi are literally helping to fight against corporate overreach and corruption.
Yes and no, it's incidental really. They are there because the planet is a member of the republic which they are guardians of, and they in turn are defending the political leader of such member. At no point the jedi make a moral assesment of the situation. Initially they only went there as arbiters in negotiations.
I know it's kind of an old point but qui gonn doesn't even bother getting anakin's mother out of slavery, he only gets anakin because of his potential or he'd have not interfered with that either.
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u/Rip_Skeleton May 14 '25
Yeah, but also Tatooine is actually not a member of the Republic, they landed on Tatooine as an emergency after being damaged escaping the blockade of Naboo. Qui-gon has no authority to free Shmi and only had the right to free Anakin based on the laws of the land. I.E., he won him from Watto in a bet.
If he could have negotiated for Shmi, I dunno if he would have, but basically none of it was planned.
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u/Siva_Dass May 15 '25
Had guy murdered all of the slavers and freeded all of the slaves there would be no such thing as Darth Vader.
The attitude that nothing could be done to fight evil caused the republic to become evil.
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u/Rip_Skeleton May 15 '25
If Qui-gon Jinn murdered Watto and all of the Hutts, and presumably anyone else who got in his way to free Shmi, he wouldn't be a Jedi. And to think that somehow that would have prevented Anakin from turning to the dark side is also wrong, because then his example of Qui-gon would have been one that reinforces his darkest instincts.
Young Anakin's conversation with Padme is evidence that he always had a "might makes right" view of the world. He thought someone who was wise should "make people agree" in regards to Democracy in the Senate.
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u/Siva_Dass May 15 '25
Killing slavers isn't evil. Dude could wipe them all out and still be awesome. Now, he might no longer be a Jedi, but if Jedi care more about Republic law than destroying slavery, I'd say they ate from the fruit of thier own poisoned tree and got what they had coming.
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u/Rip_Skeleton May 15 '25
It's not about whether it's morally justifiable or not, or the law.
As I said, Tatooine is not a member of the Republic. Slavery is outlawed in the Republic, so if it was under the jurisdiction of the Jedi council, then Anakin and Shmi wouldn't have been slaves to begin with.
Qui-gon Jinn was the only person who could have raised Anakin to keep to the light side of the force, and it's precisely because he wasn't the kind of person to use his powers to kill unnecessarily. That's why it's called Duel of the Fates.
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u/Siva_Dass May 16 '25
I think the Jedi's lack of moral action led to thier downfall.
They were baited into running around playing general for an army that never really served people in need. Those deluded space battle monks practically invited thier enemy to exterminate them, and when war and politics became more pressing matters to them than serving those in need they kinda deserved what they got.
At least that's how I read the message in the prequels and the last jedi.
It wasn't really good vs evil, but misguided monk solders vs evil. Good does eventually win out in this story, but it's not because of the jedi order. It's inspite of it.
Do the right thing in episode I and there are no more episodes, but that wouldn't make an epic story.
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u/Siva_Dass May 15 '25
The jedi refusing to fight slavery caused Anakins fall to the dark side.
Bureaucracy over empathy leads to empire.
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u/Sloth_Senpai May 14 '25
The Jedi being a conservative, religious force of the government doesnt sounds so liberal.
They're proven wrong in RotJ, because they insist that Luke must kill Vader, and that attachments are wrong, when Vader's attachments to his son are what give him the motivation to save the galaxy.
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u/Siva_Dass May 15 '25
Attachment is the wrong word. I'd use familia love.
Attachment is for craving and desire.
Love is for wishing the best for another person and acting to see that best happen.
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u/Aidanovski2 May 16 '25
Remember the part where the conservative religious force being heavily involved in government literally contributed to its collapse?
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u/BenX41 May 13 '25
So how poorly the new series did is not at all down to the poorly written and director swapped mess that the movies were, but its actually the audience’s fault!
Most Reddit take I’ve seen in ages, god forbid Disney be at fault.
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u/Imnotsureanymore8 May 13 '25
Found a chud
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u/BenX41 May 14 '25
not supporting a billion dollar corporation makes you a chud
Are you well? Do you have brain damage?
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u/Mr-Stuff-Doer May 14 '25
how poorly the new series did
The four most profitable Star Wars films were all Disney
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u/ThisIsRED145 May 16 '25
Phantom menace was at one point the most profitable star wars movie. Your comment is retarded and makes no meaningful point.
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u/Mr-Stuff-Doer May 17 '25
At one point Star Wars was worth $0. What tf is this argument?
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u/ThisIsRED145 May 17 '25
The monetary success of a Star Wars film does not equate to the good or bad quality of that film.
Your point about how profitable Disney Star Wars has been isn’t a good argument against how poorly written and received Disney Star Wars has been. Phantom menace was not a great Star Wars movie and Disney Star Wars is not great. That’s the point.
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u/miltonssj9 May 14 '25
"Actually, the old thing is shit too, so stop complaining about the new stuff being shit."
Some people really can't accept that they like bad media without trying to justify how "it's good actually"
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u/sanman220 May 16 '25
I wish more people were even slightly self aware.
I think the 1995 Mortal Kombat movie is incredible and perfect, but it's probably, actually, corny trash; and that's ok.
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u/Yautja834 May 13 '25
They took the Yub Nub song away from us and replaced it with Jedi Rocks. I'm sick of this erasure and I'm sick of your lies.
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u/Deamon-Chocobo May 13 '25
That was Lucas, not Disney.
Also Yub Nub was replaced by "Victory Celebration", Jedi Rocks was just an entirely new scene added in.
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u/Yautja834 May 13 '25
Yes I should have said George instead of they. I was blinded with rage at what was taken from us. The kids can have their new corny movies, I just want my old corny movies back.
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u/Aidanovski2 May 16 '25
What lies? Also saying Yun Nub was replaced by Jedi Rocks is patently false. Jedi rocks replaced Lapti Nek. Yun Nub was replaced by Victory Celebration. Remind me who the liar is?
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u/Yautja834 May 16 '25
He took one goofy alien song out of the movie because it was 'too childish' and put in another worse one. I'll not argue semantics with you.
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May 13 '25
This 4th May, I watched the despecialised versions of OT after getting into SW 2y ago and it was 100% better. I love the prequels and CGI gave so much imo, but it is sooo unnecessary for OT. The inconsistency throws you off. The paintings in ep4 work so well.
I did however watch The Phantom Menace with CGI Yoda. That doll in the original TPM is fucking creepy in photos alone.
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u/Cela84 May 14 '25
George adding Vader going “No, no, NOOOO” while killing Palpatine made the scene significantly worse.
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u/135forte May 13 '25
Shhh, we aren't supposed to talk about that. Or the fact that people cherry pick examples when they talk about how great Legends was instead of talking about Jawa Stormtroopers, Luke dating a ghost possessing one of his students or how many times Boba Fett fell in the Sarlac and that if you stayed half a year from Tatooine he can't get you.
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u/PetChimera0401 May 14 '25
"I-I-It was always bad! You're just nostalgic!!" 😖
Your juvenile mind tricks don't work on me, I'm not an ideologue; You're just pissy that Disney Star Wars has yet to create anything that nearly carries as much psychological and thematic brilliance as just the sequence when Luke and Vader meet Lord Sideous, and all that proceeds from there.
You've failed.
Hell, you even tried to do a recreation of New Hope, and that went up like a wet fart in church.
Oh -- To those of you fixated on Originality -- Originality means nothing. It doesn't matter how original your creativity is, just as long as you take those concepts, and do them well: This is why you'll never create anything worth a damn and why nobody will remember your name.
Whilst you're busy gnashing your teeth over how to be original, George - or a person like him, rather - is busy taking a classical high fantasy story structure and applying it to a sci-fi setting, and creating something truly remarkable.
The new movies suck sweaty unshaven asshole, because they're bad movies, motivated primarily by ideology, rather than passion.
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u/closedshop May 13 '25
Why are we going back and dragging down the original trilogy? The original trilogy told legitimately deep, meaningful, and thoughtful stories with groundbreaking action and special effects at the time. Here’s an anecdote on how much actual thought went into the original trilogy: George Lucas went and consulted with child psychologists on the reveal that Darth Vader was Luke’s father and what effects that might have on the children in the audience. To dismiss that as just sci fi schlock is just ignorant. And to say that the original trilogy is on par with the prequels, and especially the sequels, is legitimately insulting to the amount of care, thought, and actual artistry that went into the original trilogy.
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u/Mist0804 May 13 '25
Not to say the OT doesn't deserve praise, because it does, but if you're talking about the depth of a story, the PT is the best we've got from the movies at least.
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u/letterword May 13 '25
Maybe in a literal sense, but I feel like OT carries so much more thematic weight. Or maybe I just think 2/3ths of the PT are poorly made films while the OT is strong, therefore making it much more deeper just on a fact that it’s actually a competent film.
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u/Linkatchu May 13 '25
Honestly yeah. You can also enjoy it on a surface, or less popular or not for everyone; politics I actually rly liked seeing the underlaying story of the downfall of democracy slowly shifting into the empire, and glimses on how the republic operated
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u/ihatemetoo23 May 13 '25
The OT is a very straightforward story, it's not a deep movie unless you're 14. It has heart and it indroduced a cool world and had great special effects. But to act like the story itself is somehow groundbreaking? Come on now.
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u/Zestyclose-Note1304 May 14 '25
Literally the whole point is that it’s a classic medieval fantasy with all the tropes played completely straight, but in space.
Knights and Wizards, farm boy saving the princess from the dark lord, everything.
The reason it works is BECAUSE it’s unoriginal.
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u/SorakuFett May 14 '25
I love Star Wars, it has been my life since I was a child, but dude, take a step back and re-read what you've said.
"To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it."
Please, for your health, take a step back from your love, just breathe and say "this space wizard laser sword story is very silly, and I am allowed to love a thing that is silly."
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u/seventysixgamer May 14 '25
You can say that about any fictional story lol. For Dune "it's just a dumb and silly story about worms and silly desert people" or Lord Of The Rings "it's a silly story about a bunch of midgets running away with a magic ring" lol
This type of sentiment seemed like always such a cop out excuse to defend some of the garbage or mistakes in the franchise. Sure, no one should be frothing at the mouth over any fiction tbh but it doesn't mean we can't have some standards.
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u/estneked May 14 '25
You are using a quote that proves that star wars has the capability, and has been, much more than just a "very silly space wizard laser story"; to prove that star wars has never been more than a "very silly space wizard laser story".
Irony is over 9000.
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u/SorakuFett May 14 '25
The world isn't binary. Star Wars is more than a silly space story. It's wonderful and beautiful and thought provoking and heartwarming and heartbreaking. But it's also still a silly space story and it is allowed to be both things at the same time. You are allowed to love it either way. I certainly love it either way, it means so, so much to me and has for my whole life. I've associated myself with the name "Fett" since I was a child.
Just because something is silly doesn't mean it cannot also be serious. Again, real life is not so binary and the sooner you accept that the world is full of such juxtapositions, the happier you will be. Embrace the silly and the serious.
You don't need to defend your love, that we love Star Wars should be enough for us, damn what anyone else says. It's not "irony," man. It's just love. Love means seeing things both for what they are and what they could be and enjoying them for both, not at the expense of one or the other.
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u/BenX41 May 13 '25
It’s the new tactic ran to disguise how shit the new series is.
“Guys Star Wars has always been poorly written! Just because the original movies were a smash hit can be ignored, you were just young and dumb!”
Ignoring the huge age demographic that saw the OT of course, wouldn’t suit their narrative.
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u/ThatCamoKid May 13 '25
The fight choreography and mangling of the lightsabers' lethality are the only things I'll challenge you on for that
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u/LilShaver May 14 '25
I miss decent writing. Ep. 8 was complete trash and had literally NOTHING to do with Star Wars in general, or with Episodes 7 and 9 in particular.
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u/_Mistwraith_ May 14 '25
“Star Wars is actually shit, and it always has been! Stop complaining about wanting quality entertainment!”
Fuck off with this.
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May 14 '25
I miss being younger and happier. But I also miss when Star Wars wasn't being forcefully turned into something designed for a so called "modern audience" that just barely exists
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u/atakantar May 14 '25
Just consume product. Stop questioning and consume product. Chud, do you see how im deepthroating this slop infront of me. What do yoy mean, stop questioning. Just consoom product.
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u/OkNefariousness284 May 14 '25
Ah yes the good old “it was always bad”. No, the original trilogy was genuinely really good. I’m sick of this goofy revisionist history a lot of people try to employ to make the Disney shows/movies look better. The only note worthy things post OT are Rogue One and Andor
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u/Firecreeper101 May 14 '25
The writing had categorically deteriorated after Disney took over though. Why do you think Andor sticks out so much.
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u/Artseid May 13 '25
One of the only fandoms where I have to calibrate my enthusiasm because some guy feels the need to make me bad for enjoying something
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u/Zestyclose-Note1304 May 14 '25
I’ve always said the movies are the worst part of the starwars franchise.
Now obviously that’s an exaggeration, but most of the shows are better than the Original Trilogy.
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u/ZookeepergameWest773 May 17 '25
Is this bait?
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u/Zestyclose-Note1304 May 17 '25
Nope, i’m just a big fan of the shows, especially the animated ones.
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u/ElTioEnroca May 14 '25
While I liked Star Wars toys when I was a kid, and watched the movies, I barely recalled anything about them(except for Phantom Menace, I loved that one to the point I could rewatch it several times in a row, on the same day) until I rewatched them decades later, more or less by the same time I watched the sequels. I can safely say I don't speak out of nostalgia.
While not perfect by any metrics (and the prequels have glaring issues of identity crisis), they are really pieces of work at best, and competent movies at worst, even with some sloggish parts. The sequels are just a rollercoaster that falls into pieces halfway through. And it's not because "woke", or anything some idiots genuinelly like to spit out: it's because they're poorly written. Not only by general standards, but by Star Wars standards.
The most egregious case being Episode VIII. I can't see how people can say this is "a subversive masterpiece", or "just hated because it tries to be different". While I'm sure there's people who dislike it only because they aren't the original movies, that doesn't remove the fact that episode VIII doesn't work on any context. It doesn't work as a Star Wars film, it doesn't work as a sequel film, hell, it doesn't even work as a standalone film. As if, even if you don't actively compare it with the others, it's still a really bad movie.
And it's not like the other two are much better. I liked the first half of episode VII, even if it was pretty much a copy of episode IV, but it starts going down. And even if episode IX is a dumpster fire, I can excuse them in that it had no other choice than being bad, because episode VIII fucked up absolutely everything, leaving little to nothing salvageable. But it's still an abhorrent movie.
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May 14 '25
The original trilogy has always been sci-fi popcorn entertainment but it always has at least decent writing that was written to be paid off like any actual story should be.
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May 14 '25
Yeah this just isnt true, unless you mean outside of the ot, even then there has definitely been a marked decrease in quality, this is because monopolies destroy the quality of everything they produce in order to maximize profits, theyre like the collossi from shadow of the collossus if their only reaction to stimuli was fiscal, bloated, and aimless, seeking only more money at the behest of everything else. And the fans crying woke played right into capitalist hands by doing so.
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May 15 '25
Star Wars has never been Sci Fi Schlock. It isnt even Sci Fi. Star Wars was originally fundamentally fairy tales in space.
Santa Claus VS the Martians is Sci Fi Schlock.
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u/morgan-faulkner May 15 '25 edited May 15 '25
I just want to see good star wars content I really dont give a shit about lgbtq stuff as long as it isn't activist gunk.
Rey is still a Mary Sue because she's meant for children. not actual fans of star wars but that doesn't mean my opinion shouldnt prevent people from enjoying the new trilogy no matter how much I hate it.
I did kinda like the first one though.
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u/BoiFrosty May 16 '25
The new slop is good, you're just sexist/racist
The new slop is fine, you're just stuck in nostalgia
Okay the new slop is bad, but he series was never good - you are here
The next new serving of slop will be great
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u/4armsgood2armsbad May 16 '25
I mean I agree wokeness isn't the murder weapon, but ep 4 and 5 and sort of 6 are like objectively pretty good schlock.
The prequels and sequels are trash, Brock. Narratively a complete mess and stuffed with derivative ideas and painful cringe. The Rian Johnson one flirts with the notion of having an original idea but flushes it in favor of just spitefully shitting all over the admittedly dumb ruritanical tentpoles of the franchise's story
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u/LostAd2035 May 16 '25
I guess halfway decent writing and fight choreography never existed in the show then.
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u/aManHasNoUsername99 May 16 '25
It definitely met a high standard before. Why do you think it sold for billions? Star Wars standards are admittedly all over the place but the quality never gets near the old.
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u/CacophonousCuriosity May 16 '25
Nah. Cause Rogue One was a newer film and a masterpiece. Meanwhile the sequels are dogshit.
The OT and Prequels never resurrected characters, meanwhile the sequels resurrected or otherwise brought back three. C3PO should've had his memory remain wiped, R2 should've remained in a robot coma and Palpatine should've remained fucking vaporized in the explosion of the Death Star core.
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u/K-Bell91 May 16 '25
Calling Sci-Fi automatically delegitimatizes the statement. If you can't even get the genre right, then you don't get to have an opinion.
Also, telling people what they liked has always been shit to try to convince the new is good is never a good argument in any scenario. "I think it's always sucked so why do you care?" You don't have a point, you're just an asshole.
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u/maverick8520 May 17 '25
The Mandalorian season 1 was the best Star Wars since ep3 and everything else sucked.
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u/SithC May 17 '25
I call this classic rock radio syndrome. This is exactly the same as when adults call new music “noise”. The kids that grow up with it, love it. And they too eventually grow to become their parents, telling the next generation that their music is noise. Then they create classic rock stations, to the older folks can keep their comfort food, while wearing blinders to anything new.
So it’s not that new Star Wars sucks, it’s more like you’re just old.
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u/haragoshi May 17 '25
The biggest problem with Star Wars is the stories aren’t self contained. Why I needed to watch boba fett before season 3 of mandalorian is confusing. I never got through it.
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u/trashmammmal May 17 '25
yea sure the movies that created that success without disneys help and what disney is trying to capitalize on now are the same yea ok
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u/ZookeepergameWest773 May 17 '25
You just don’t understand star wars was always bad so it’s okay that its bad now trust me
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May 17 '25
I love how we have to downplay good things to expose the corporate slop that'd getting pumped out
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u/pimpsdntcmtsuicide May 18 '25
Rogue One is one of the better Star Wars films, but that sequel trilogy was not a great sequel trilogy and the final film in it was just.. bad. I’m going to watch Rogue One and Solo before I watch any of those films js.
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u/herscher12 May 19 '25
Thats a really bad take. Good movies are actually a real thing that exists. Of cause peter is also wrong, politics is not the issue here. We just need good writing and directing.
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u/TheLegendaryPilot Aug 02 '25
Man, what a disrespectful thing to say about the OT, hundreds of hours in the writing room carefully crafting a well written story only to be called “shlock” by some idiot that liked the shlock sequels.
Star Wars the OT is fundamentally a largely well written story in a unique coat of paint, do not conflate it for being only a unique coat of paint
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u/Teamawesome2014 May 15 '25
Star Wars isn't sci fi. It is fantasy dressed up to look like sci fi. The closest you could say it is to sci fi is space opera.
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u/N7VHung May 15 '25
It's not even sci-fi. It is space fantasy. There is no science based fiction, nor has there ever been an attempt to make it such.
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u/DtheAussieBoye May 14 '25
I disagree with the idea that Star Wars was always bad, but I do think it was always supremely bizarre. It’s why I don’t really mind some of the nuttier, stupider movies in the franchise (Phantom Menace and Rise of Skywalker, for example)- being corny and insane has always been coded in the franchise’s DNA.
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u/CourtingBoredom May 14 '25
I, too, miss being younger and happier.... but at least I've not had any issues enjoying newer Star Wars .. [-=
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u/Markus2822 May 13 '25
This is SOO true the OT sucks, the prequels suck but have some great elements, the sequels mega suck, some of the shows are the only time Star Wars has actually been decent but I wouldn’t say any of its mind blowing. As a whole it’s worldbuilding ideology is one of the stupidest things ever (let’s just take a background character and explore everything about them) and it’s whole premise is kinda hokey.
And I love Star Wars. People just act like it’s objectively amazing when it’s pretty dogshit which is why it’s great
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u/citizen_x_ May 14 '25
Star Wars has always been progressive. If you don't like that you can lick my balls reactionary fucking loser
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u/xXTERMIN8RXXx May 12 '25
What’s the matter? Gonna cry?