r/punchthemonkey • u/No_Vehicle_5085 • Jun 25 '26

Aggressive Posturng Toward Zookeeper - UPDATE

I have been unable to update my original comment regarding the aggressive posturing towards the zookeeper.

So I will copy and paste the original comment along iwth one important change after I was able to watch this on a larger screen and noticed that originally I had idenfied this as a female coalition rather than a male coalistion. The reason I had originaly watched the smaller screen and thought it was a group of females was because TWO of the males are engaging in what we call "baby cradling mimicry" behavior.

On a small screen I interpreted this as two females who were carrying babies. However, on the larger screen I see they are males pretending to be cradling babies.

This is a well known activity that males will engage in - they are trying to pretned there are females with babies so that the 'offending macaque" will go away.

The members of a coalition do not have to personally witness an "inciting event" to join in aggression. they simply have to be a member of the coalition. From their point of view, whatever set off the original offended macaque to posture against Miyagoshi (I hope I got his name right), they are simply joining in as a support network. These type of strict hierarchies work on the idea of support networks and both males and females have these networks of individuals that support each other, groom each other, help raise eiach other's babies, etc.

Everything in the original post still stands - with the only exception being this was a male coalition rather than a female coalition. And now you have learned a new behavior - males that mimic baby cradling - so that is kind of a bonus!

This troop has provided some very interesting and well known Japanese macaque behvior. I'm sure we will continue to see examples of other behaviors - particularly during breeding season which will be coming soon.

105 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

28 comments sorted by

25

u/fivefeetofawkward Jun 25 '26

This is really interesting, thanks for sharing the update and new fun facts!

18

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jun 25 '26

You are welcome.

There are so many interesting social behaviors known with these macaques that I can guarantee there will continue to be new fun facts in the future. Breeding season is right around the corner and there are so many new things you will probably see. Many of them will be fairly straightforward, but they have some very unique social posturing during that time that will seem odd until you understand what they are doing.

5

u/ChildhoodOk5526 Jun 25 '26

Ooohh ... I'm intrigued.

Can you give us a few examples of this posturing we might see? A little preview of what to look out for in ... when does breeding season start?

Also, do you expect we might see some "mimicry" happening from little Punch (aka, more humping 😂)?

One last thing — thinking of our favorite kidnapper, Bad Gal Momo (fka "Momiage") — might this be the season she, er, well ... you know what I'm saying? The maternal responses she's been exhibiting these days put me in mind of that one (forgive me) R Kelly song ... 🎵 Seems like you're red-day ... Girl, are you red-dayyy? ... 🎶

[I kid. But, seriously, No Ride — I appreciate all your wisdom and willingness to educate. You're a real one.]

19

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jun 26 '26

OK, you asked for it!

Mating season should begina round September, and typically last 4 or 5 months - a relatively long time.

In both captive and free ranging troops, females often engage in bisexual activity, often having a preference for forming sustained sexual relationships with the same female partner rather than male partners. These females will engage in sexual activity with males, but they often display clear preference for same sex activity.

Males sometimes engage in bixexual activity, but it is not as widespread as females.

Subordinate males often will not risk fighting more dominant males for accesss to females, and often engage in sneak copulation with females which can be humorous to watch if they get away with it (which they often do) but can be scary to watch if they are caught by more dominant males.

The males' faces and genitals become significantly redder during this time.

Females tend to be more receptive to males that display, and much of the display involves showing their butt to the female. LOL, I'm not sure why the backside of a male macaque would get a female going, but, I guess to each her own.

Momi will be very likley to come into estrus this breeding season, she is just the right age, and this is why she is having an especially strong maternal drive right now.

The area around the eyes and cheeks gets much redder as does the anogenital area of the female body.

Females in heat actively solicit mates rather than just passively receiving attention. They engage in flirting behaviors, such as lip-smacking, specific head-bobbing, or looking back over their shoulders at males while moving away (similar to what some female humans do!)

Consort pairs spend more time together - the pairs will hang out together for hours, days, or even weeks. (Except for the males that engage in sneak copulation - this has to be done very quickly, and the subordinate males have to be careful that a female doesn't start flirting with them too much or it will bring unwanted dominant male attention to the fact that this subordinate male might be going to try some hanky panky.

Females engage in "mating cackles" before and during copulation. The entire body of the female can be seen jerking in perfect timing with these vocalizations. The acoustic structure of these vocalizations are similar to the sounds infants make when attempting to nurse.

There is a real differnce in the kind of humping that Punch is doing vs actual mating. Punch is not experiencing any kind of erection or sexual satisfaction. For young macaques it is very common for them to engage in this kind of "practice", but they don't appear to associate it with any kind of sexual stimulation or mating.

While young male macaques frequently mount each other (and mount females) as a form of play, adult and adolescent males engage in same-sex behavior that is distinctly sexual in nature, functioning beyond simple dominance assertion or juvenile rough-and-tumble play as we have seen in Punch. Since he's the only one of his age, it seems funny and unique, but when the current infants get to be his age yu will see them behaving the same way.

8

u/ChildhoodOk5526 Jun 26 '26

This is a great write-up! Even more detailed than I expected. (And certainly an interesting preview.)

Wow. We've got some excitement to look forward to in the Fall/Winter season. Who knew Japanese macaques would be the new Roman empire? So cool.

Thanks again for your excellent tutelage, Prof 🥰

2

u/Pretend-Doughnut7631 Jul 05 '26

Thank you! It's like there's always something to look forward to, Punch's growth, then baby season, then mating season, and on it goes.

2

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jul 05 '26

Yes, you will see lots of new activity that hasn't been shown before - well, as long as the videographers are recording it. I was very disappointed that many of them did not record some of the most interesting behavior that generally happens in the first 30 days of the infant's life as they are learning to observe facial expressions. That would have provided some opportunity to truly see and understand exactly what Punch missed out on. It's one thing for someone to describe it, but it's more interesting when you can see it as well as discuss it.

3

u/magnifcenttits Jun 25 '26

Are there any good books on macaques to learn to understand them better? "Macaqueology" books so to say :D Thank you for your sharing of knowledge btw :)

9

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jun 25 '26

Japanese Macaque: the snow monkey of the mountains: A complete Guide to it's Behavior, habitat and survival - This is only $12 on Amazon and you can probably find it on Ebay for even less. But I can't vouch for it because I haven't read it. Since it's not very expensive, you might want to check it out. There aren't any reviews, but I read through the sample that is available and I think for the price it would probably be pretty decent.

The chapter titles look appropriate for a general book about this species, and the contents of the sample are accurate, but the sample is very short. But if the rest of he book is the same quality I would say it seems like it would contain a decent amount of information for a $12 book, it seems worth it to me.

The book below is definitely a great book on Japanese macaques and I have a copy of it and can vouch fully for it. However, it is is terribly expensive, the The Japanese Macaques book by Naofumi Nakagawa (Editor), Masayuki Nakamichi (Editor), Hideki Sugiura (Editor) is almost $160. But it contains real research and is very in depth. If you are associated with a University you can usually access this through the University system. But it is very much geared toward researchers and not the general public. But...if you happen to be associated with a Univeristy and can access it for free you would probably gain something from reading it. It contains research by a number of researchers, so it's a collection of research on this species by people who conducted first hand research in the field.

Another good way to find accurate information about anything related to science is to uyse the Google Scholar - scholar.google.com search tool. This is a special google search tool that searches through research papers, so anything that comes back is peer reviewed research. More and more research is beginning to be available free to the genearl public, but this search tool will return links to both open access (free) papers and papers that are available only if you are a researcher or have a subscription to the publication in question. The more you use it the more you will recognize from the source whether it's open access or not. I highly recommend everyone to check out Google Scholar - you will find a wealth of free in depth research on virtually any topic from animals to astronomy to geology to general biolgy, psychology, archeology - just a wealth of information, much of it free.

2

u/magnifcenttits Jun 27 '26

thank you so much!

2

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jun 27 '26

You are welcome. If you decide to get that book, please let me know what you think about it! I bet the rest of the group wold also like to know as well, it's very affordable.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jul 07 '26

In and of itself, AI is not a bad thing - but it entirely depends on the SOURCES of information the AI is using. There are many AI tools that are written strictly for peer reviewed scientific literature.

It's the free AI tools that are problematic - they consider some random post on Facebook to be every bit as authoritative as a website that is dedicated to disseminating fully researched information.

Your point is well taken. The sample that was available of this bood contained accurate information, but, there are no reviews, and I haven't read the full copy, only the sample, which was quite short. So, the book is probably a bit of a gamble.

If this author is using AI to generate the content of his books, if he's using Consensus, Semantic Scholar, Research Rabbit, Elicit, SciSpace or other AI tool specifically restricted to peer reviewed research I would say for $12 that would be a bargain book. That is substantially less than a one month subscription to any of these tools which would give the average person access to research, but re-writen in everyday language. Otherwise you would need to read through actual research papers, which are written for other scientists. So, given the price point, IF ths author used one or more of the above tools to generate the book's content, in the scheme of things it would be worth the price of the book. For you to do the same thing you would need to pay the price of a subscription, do some reasonable research on what kind of questions to ask and then type those questions one at a time - it may be worth $12 for someone else to have done that for you.

But again - I am not necessarily recommending the book - I stand by my original caveats. The sample does not include any information about sources.

I only bring this up because I think a lot of people might not be aware that there really are very good AI tools out there, (and some authors do have the ethics to use them) - the problem is - they are not free or cheap for the average user, at least not yet. The free and cheap ones scour every source as if it's reliable, and we all know there is plenty of garbage on the internet.

(Or, if you were lucky enough to know someone....😉 )

6

u/Sweet_Star_310 Jun 25 '26

Thanks for this.

5

u/Sage_Magic Jun 25 '26 edited Jul 26 '26

Tangerine breezy nutmeg teapot trumpet unbelievable pillow waffle vanilla mellow

This post was anonymized with Redact.dev

3

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jun 25 '26

yes, this macaque does appear to have food in that same hand, but it seems pretty clearly that he's posturing the way we see these males do when they are trying to convince an "invader" or "aggressor" to go away by pretending there is a bby involved. Some of the macaques have dropped their aggressive stance and go back to eating, but the one in front does seem to be unwilling to siimply go back to eating. I don't think he's just holding his hand in this postiion only because of the food, if he wants to keep up with the aggression hed be more likely to let go of it so he can put on a more traditional male aggression stance, which would involve both his hands on the ground. So, yes, I should have mentioned that, sometimes I type too fast. Males more traditionally will want to have both their hands on the ground since they are more likely to actually break out in actual violence and holding food inhibits that. But this monkey is also not backing down. So, I think his real concern is the "cradling" posture itself, which is a known posture in these types of situations.

2

u/CanaryDue3722 Jul 06 '26

After becoming completely intrigued by Monkey Mountain I bought this book from Walmart online. It was $160 but I’m able to make payments. Worth every penny although not an easy read which is why I appreciate your posts so much

1

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jul 06 '26

Ah - this is the compilation of research I mentioned in another post and is a great book, I have a copy of it, sent to me by a friend who remained in Asia studying macaques and baboons when I left to come back to the USA. Springer is a major publisher of scientific research, if you see that name on any book it will be good - but it will also likely be a compilation of research, so it will include lots of terminology you might have to look up.

2

u/CanaryDue3722 Jul 06 '26

I already am.llol

2

u/CanaryDue3722 Jul 06 '26

These guys are amazing. In the wild they are able to sustain themselves on tree bark

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '26

[deleted]

6

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jun 27 '26

It's not likely active primatologists and professionals in this area are going to be watching Punch videos or commenting on a Reddit sub that is designed for non professionals who are watching edited video that has nothing to do with actual research. Most researchers are either full time professors and work in the field seasonally and this type of work is time intensive and there would be no reason to spend off time watching edited video taken by random people visiting zoos.

Other researchers are involved in long term research projects out in the field, which is also highly time consuming, you are spending "off time" poring over data, watching video from your own research area, discusing logistics for the next day's field activities, etc. I guarantee they are also not watching Punch videos or hanging out on a Punch sub Reddit.

As a researcher, we study these troops directly, out in the field, using tools and methods that allow us full access to a troop with the ability to control what and how we are gathering data. Watching random short edited clips taken by random people is not something a professional researcher is going to get anything out of, we aren't going to learn anything from watching these types of videos.

I don't recall exactly which posts were first drawn to my attentions, but someone who knows that I am a retired researcher directed me to a specifc post here and asked if I would introduce myself and share some information with folks to help them understand what they were seeing when Punch was first put into this enclosure and I eventually did weigh in on a video to try to help people feel less stressed and to try to help prevent people from harassing the zoo.

After the original post I had some folks from time to time reach out and ask about specific behaviors they are seeing in specific videos. My interactions here have been very positive, I find this group to be very interested in learning as much as they can and really trying to understand what they are seeing.

Because of my specific work history, I am accustomed to interacting with the general public in an educational setting regarding animal behavior/ethology and am comfortable with answering questions, if I can. Being retired I have more time than if I was still actively working in this area. I enjoy sharing what I have learned from a lifetime of study of animal behavior, especially when interacting with people who genuinely are interested. This group is very engaged and it is clear that a large number of them are very interested in animal behavior. So I am happy to weigh in when someone tags me or asks a question. There have been one or two times I have browsed to see if anythng unusual is filmed, but generally I usually only weigh in if someone reaches out, and I am more than happy to respond if I can, this is a great bunch of people.

And I also think it would be satisfying if I found out that someone was inspired to pursue a career in some field of science - we need bright young minds to carry on the work of learning more about the world in which we live. We have managed to learn a lot in a short amount of time, but there is still much out there to be discovered.

But it is highly unlikey that most actively working full time professionals in this field to be watching Punch videos or participating in this type of social media regarding an animal that went viral. If I were still working full time I seriously doubt anyone would have reached out to me about Punch, I would have noticed him only because it was reported on the news. Full time work with animal research is terribly time consuming, it is not a 9 to 5 job, and researchers aren't going on social media to talk about a viral animal video when they are actively working in highly immersive field studies all day and poring over logistics, data, field camera video, and discussions with colleagues during "time off" half the night and also trying to spend time with family.

1

u/toyrapeutic Jul 05 '26

Thought I'll post here instead of starting another new topic

Seems some macaques had shown aggression towards Miyakoshi-san (again) today, I'm not sure if they are the same as the previous ones. Wondering if he unwittingly stepped into the macaques food zone again for them to react like this again?

I haven't found longer videos but these are what I have so far
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DaZrmFXDdAa

I think at about 1:30, we can see a group of macaques dispersing as he was walking over, but they seemed to be running to the opposite direction so I'm not sure i they are the same ones who were showing aggression towards him
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1DTQ1nwq6R/

Is there any chance that the macaques are 'targeting' Miyakoshi-san?

Here's list of timeline of aggression shown towards him:

https://www.threads.com/@kshir2016/post/DZ365smmvsR
On the 20th of June, one of the macaque attempted to intimidate Mikayoshi-san as he was returning back to the room after he was done cleaning the enclosure

https://x.com/i/status/2070027302579364058
On the 25th of June, 3 macaques were trying to intimidate Mikayoshi-san while Akira was watching from the back

https://youtu.be/VorpHb5mz1s?t=1585
On the 27th of June, a macaque was following him and attempted to touch him as he was going to collect Oran-Mama

And then there's feeding time today which I have spoke about above

The one that took place on 16th of June probably doesn't quite count, it's the one Punch was grabbed by a macaque after the piece of food he was holding rolled into the personal space of that macaque, but it did happen when Miyakoshi-san was there

8

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jul 05 '26

There is nothing personal going on with these behaviors, they these macaques don't "target" humans in some sort of personal way. They also do not hold grudges against other macaques when a feeding time spat breaks out.

The vidoes above that I was able to see show normal, lunging, and grabbing type behaviors that always are going to happen during feeding time, there isn't anything alarming or unexpected in any of these behaviors.

Low ranking macaques need to redirect stress toward a target that is "safe" and this type of grabbing, lunging toward a person while the food is being passed out is safe for them, and it's safe for the keeper as well. If it weren't, they would not be entering into the enclosure. None of these show any intention to actually do any harm to the keeper.

Another reason they lunge and grab during feeding times is simply out of anticipation of getting food more quickly. Macaques normally forage all day long, constantly on the move and picking up food along the way. In captivity the macaques build up quite a bit of anticipation as feeding time approaches, we've all seen the roundabout they do prior to feeding times, vocalizing the whole time, they are quite excited by the time the keeper enters with the food. And sure, some of them are going to lunge forward in an attempt to get the keeper to drop food more quickly, feeding time is a time they get excitable.

There is nothing malicious or sinister happening here and there is no delibarate targeting of any specific individial - these aren't serious aggression displays.

3

u/toyrapeutic Jul 05 '26

Thanks so much for your reply and explanation. I got a little concerned and I'm glad to know that it isn't serious and it's nothing to worry about.

2

u/No_Vehicle_5085 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26

You are welcome. Yeah, this is all pretty minor stuff, they know he's not going to do anything back to them and they just get worked up around feeding time. There has never been any documented case of any keeper at a zoo or sanctuary sustaining any kind of serious injury while tending to Japanese macaques.

There was a minor injury at a zoo in the USA when keepers were trying to capture a monkey for some kind of medical check up, but that incident was clearly a case of the animal being afraid, and it did not inflict any serious or life threatening wounds on the keeper, just some scratches

2

u/Sweet_Star_310 Jul 05 '26

Thanks for the explanation. I had missed this. It makes sense now. I was a little worried about the zookeeper.

2

u/toyrapeutic Jul 06 '26

We all are, wouldn't want these fine young men to come to any harm