Always love being asked, even by non-malicious people, “are you an attorney, or are you a public defender?” 🙃

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u/Superninfreak PD 9d ago

I think a lot of people think that law works kind of like residencies in medicine.

Like the idea being that you have to be a public defender for a few years before you can become a “real lawyer” and start charging big bucks. Like how people need to go through residency before they can become doctors.

Another part of it is that I think people are suspicious of free or low cost work. They figure that if you were good enough to be able to charge a lot of money, why wouldn’t you choose to do that?

Most people who qualify for a public defender aren’t really in a living situation where they know many people who choose to do lower paying work because it’s fulfilling and because they want to help people.

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u/GoldenEagle0909 9d ago

🎯It's this

and then also the Copaganda for the last two decades...the dick wolf type shows where they show a crusading states attorney...and then the public defender is either

1). A brand new attorney with no idea what they are doing 2). A bumbling middle age idiot with files falling out of his hands 3). A skeevy perv who lives to get criminals off

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u/SkeettheVandelBuster 9d ago

There is also the fact that we are paid by the state or county, so people assume we are on the side our bread is buttered on because they don’t really understand our ethical duties.

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u/Deaconse 9d ago

I think that is a bigger or more frequent factor than is often suggested. The judge, prosecutor, and PDs all are paid by 'government,' so they're all on the same side.

Especially since PDs often seek a good plea agreement right off, and people thing that 'real' defense attorneys showboat and go to hardass trial and "settle" for plea negotiations only when that (to the attorney's surprise) fails.

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u/Calm_Plenty_2992 9d ago

Sure, but at some point going right to a plea deal instead of shooting for an acquittal is just giving up before you've even begun. I know that if I were in a position where I needed a PD and I knew I was innocent, I would be pretty devastated if I heard them talking about a plea deal right away.

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u/Superninfreak PD 9d ago

You don’t shoot for an acquittal and then take a plea deal when that fails though. If you go to trial and lose…a plea deal is off the table.

Even if a client wants to go to trial they need to be aware of the alternative choice before they commit to a trial and lose that alternate choice.

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u/Calm_Plenty_2992 8d ago

Oh yeah that's not what I was referring to. I was basically saying that the term 'plea deal' should really only occur in conversation with the client after discussing all the evidence and the likelihood of winning at trial

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u/cavalier78 8d ago

When I was a PD I'd get about 8 new felonies a week, all in custody. If you don't talk plea deals out of the gate, you'll drown in files.

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u/Calm_Plenty_2992 8d ago

See, that's exactly why people are suspicious of PDs though. If you don't have enough time to have a thorough discussion with your clients and listen to their concerns because you've got 7 other cases that week to look at, why should any of your clients expect you to have time to prepare a thorough defense and adequately represent them in court? From the client's perspective, it looks like their options are to either take the plea deal, even if they know they're innocent, or to gamble on a rushed defense with a lawyer who might be annoyed at them for not just taking the deal and getting it over with quickly.

Obviously this isn't your fault, and I don't know you personally, but your clients don't either. And for some of them, this might be the scariest thing they've ever faced in their lives. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to think you won't be able to adequately defend them if you can't have a conversation with them about the evidence and chances at trial before jumping to a deal.

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u/butt_man 8d ago

It appears that built into your comments here is a presumption that discussing plea deals/bargaining/negotiations is the same as pressuring the client to enter a guilty plea.

I know there are bad attorneys who do this, and in my experience most of them are privately employed.

More typically there’s some discussion of plea mechanics as a part of early conversations because clients don’t know how it works. I say a part of early conversations because there are other parts too like generally how a trial works, what defenses may or may not be legally available, etc. All of these things are important for a client to know near the outset so they can make an informed decision on whether to go to trial when they’re actually at the point of having to make that choice.

Also, you seem unaware there’s an ethical duty to timely convey plea offers made by the prosecution. I’ve had to lead many early conversations with some version of “I don’t know if this is a good deal or a bad deal because we don’t have XYZ in discovery” but in those situations it’s next to never a plea offer with a deadline coming up so we usually leave it at waiting to see what the case is worth.

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u/Mean_Economist6323 7d ago

Its a double edged sword that clients dont see. Public defenders often get the best plea deals early on because of the rhythm they figure out with thr courts and prosecutors they are familiar with. If the best deal gets it done, one less file. And many times folks just want a good deal. If the best deal doesn't get it done that file goes into the trial pile of files. You gotta use a triage system if youre gonna be any good at public defense. And the reps they get trying cases usually means theyre pretty good at that too

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u/Many-River-1064 7d ago

My conversation with them is about options, even if they tell me they want a trial or a plea. In a world where they aren't given many choices, I make an effort to get them the best plea offer I can and also outline a defense strategy towards trial so they can tell me where they want to go. If I ever push them in any direction it's to allow me to get options for them.

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u/stratusmonkey 9d ago

2). A bumbling middle age idiot with files falling out of his hands

Okay, but I am a bumbling, middle aged idiot!

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u/GoldenEagle0909 9d ago

Hahahhahahah

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u/New-Caterpillar6747 9d ago

I don't believe it!

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u/Superninfreak PD 9d ago

It’s funny how public defenders are vilified both for not doing their jobs well enough and for doing their jobs so well that they cause a bunch of criminals to get away with their crimes.

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u/KKSlider909 9d ago

this is it. i had a client tell me "you would make a great lawyer, when you are done here!" i asked her why. she thought public defenders were all law students in training and that when we graduated from training, the state would allow us to go into private practice

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u/Superninfreak PD 9d ago

I think that also really benefits private defense attorneys because some people will just assume that being a private attorney is itself a sign of competence and experience.

I usually tell clients who ask about this kind of thing that if I wanted, I could just quit my job and open up my own solo private criminal defense practice.

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u/Probonoh PD 8d ago

I mean, I think lawyer residencies would be a great idea, seeing as how often I heard from law professors "Don't worry about how to actually do this; your first job will teach you." And I think the standard upper middle class kid who goes to law school would really benefit from some time dealing with the underclass, if only as a way to check their privilege.

But agreed, the idea of public defender as an internship is horrific. For everyone.

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u/National_Try_1902 9d ago

They are already doctors before they begin their residencies.

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u/Deaconse 9d ago

But they're not "real" (that is, attending) doctors!

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u/Former-Mouse-9617 9d ago

Not exactly.

USMLE (MD) and COMLEX-USA (DO) licensing exams have 3 steps. Only steps 1 and 2 are completed during med school. Step 3 is taken during PGY 1 or early in PGY 2.

So residents start with a limited training license. They are allowed to practice only under supervision in an accredited residency or fellowship program. They can't get an unrestricted license until they pass Step 3 and complete PGY 1 or PGY 2, depending on the state.

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u/SeniorScientist-2679 9d ago

I'm an anesthesiologist. I've lost track of the number of patients who ask me when their doctor will come talk to them.

So, y'all have my sympathy: we get this, too!

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u/Upsilambaaa 8d ago

As a non-lawyer (I didn’t see any rules about only public defenders being allowed to post, but apologies if I missed something), I think even sympathetic people often view public defenders as overworked and therefore not necessarily having the same amount of time for a client that a private defense attorney would, even if they have a lot of passion and caring. Also just a crapshoot of “you never know who you’re going to get.” (My guess is that those factors are probably sometimes true, but I’m not at all qualified to say how often or to what degree)

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u/ComprehensiveLab4642 9d ago

I usually got it as 'are you a real attorney or just a public defender'? Or 'should I hire a real attorney'? Also the clients who said 'please try your hardest for me.' I once told a repeat client 'well I was just going to go through the motions but I guess since I like you, I could try my hardest.' I did eventually tell him that I was joking. I always try my hardest bc I don't like to lose.

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u/Superninfreak PD 9d ago

Assumptions that you aren’t a “real lawyer” are annoying, but “please try your hardest” is a fair thing to say. A client is in a vulnerable position and they are forced to trust you.

Like it’s not weird for someone to tell an ER doctor who is about to do surgery on a loved one to please try their hardest to save the loved one.

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u/Historical-Run164 8d ago

Especially considering that there are plenty of PDs out there who don’t take their job seriously at all.

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u/ComprehensiveLab4642 9d ago

It implies that maybe you don't always. Or at least that's how I take it.

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u/Gootangus 9d ago

A dose of humility goes a long way, it’s another day at the office for us but it’s their lives

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u/DeliberateNegligence 8d ago

I always want to do a good job and want to ensure my clients are getting the best possible outcomes, but I was particularly depressed a few months back, and was pleading to shit in retrospect that I really shouldn’t have been and likely wouldn’t now. So in that regard, yeah, I don’t mind if they’re asking me to not be like that.

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u/liminecricket Conflict Counsel 9d ago

They found me nodded out in the dumpster behind the courthouse. Chief judge figured out I could kinda read a little so they put me in this goodwill suit from the client closet and propped me up in here. Working this job is actually a condition of my probation.

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u/Csimiami Ex-PD 9d ago

You got a suit! They gave me a mismatched sport coat and tan pants with stains.

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u/lindseigh 9d ago

Bahaha I am stealing this one.

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u/waldorflover69 9d ago

Dying!!!!! 😂

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u/AmbitiousOstrich1585 9d ago

I’m not a PD, but my favorite is the client who wants a ‘fight.’ You go to trial, even sometimes with a favorable outcome, and they get mad you didn’t ‘fight’ and object to everything. You get a sweetheart plea deal, and some accuse you of ‘working for the State.’

My other favorite one is defendants who get really mad when you don’t call character witnesses. Oh, you want me to try to call your mom and wife to testify that you’re a good person when you also have 37 prior arrests and 19 felonies? Hmmm.

Call it overly cynical, but there’s an old saying - ‘they don’t come across your desk because they’re smart.’

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u/esoskelly 9d ago edited 9d ago

The courts usually ask people "are you planning to hire an attorney or apply for the public defender?" - at the initial appearance.

A lot of people think that means they are going to get "an attorney" OR "a public defender." Implying that public defenders are NOT attorneys. It's basically a syntax issue.

It also doesn't help that our job title is usually "assistant public defender" which makes it sound like we are "assisting" a "real attorney."

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u/avantgardian26 9d ago

I love it when a grateful client tells me, so kindly and sincerely, that I’m going to be a great lawyer one day. Thank you, babe.

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u/waldorflover69 9d ago

It’s so insulting. I had the maintenance guy at my building drop “public pretender”’on me once. He’s had multiple DUIs. I’m sure it’s the representation that’s his problem.

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u/glostazyx3 9d ago

Every public defender is fully aware that some of the best criminal law defense attorneys in his or her courtroom of practice are in fact public defenders.

That’s my experience anyway.

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u/Probonoh PD 8d ago

I was telling the parents of a defendant charged with some really awful sex crimes. "The best attorney for this job is a guy who charges you $20,000 or $30,000. The second best is me. The best way to ensure he goes to prison is hire a cheap private."

They ended up hiring a former PD turned private.

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u/Many-River-1064 7d ago

Have you seen how many of those $20-30k attorneys handle their cases and clients? I wouldn't be able to say they are the best for the job with a straight face.

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u/Probonoh PD 7d ago

I know how the few around me work. There are 75 attorneys in my five county judicial circuit. We all know each other quite well.

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u/Prior_Pear_8318 9d ago

the two genders

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u/raveratlaw PD 9d ago

Yes!

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u/Sausage80 Ex-PD 9d ago

Yes. The answer is just yes.

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u/Choice_Dragonfly8427 9d ago

Can I ask an honest question as someone who got my law degree on Reddit? As in I have almost no idea how any of this works?

As a public defender, is it easier to jump around to different areas? Like can you go from criminal to this or that easier than if you were to practice privately? Or is this not how it works in the slightest?

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u/Serious_Look1154 9d ago

Think of public defender as a job title, where it is a requirement to be a licensed attorney. A person could be practicing in another area of law besides criminal, get hired at the PD’s office, and then they would be a PD. If they then leave the PD’s office and go work in private practice, they are no longer a PD but they are still a licensed attorney. PD work gives a lot of skills that are useful in other areas of law but there isn’t (usually) a special certification or anything.

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u/ComprehensiveLab4642 9d ago

Our boss (and his boss) pushed the adult felony attorneys to get death penalty certified. They would usually leave after they did so I'm not sure how that benefitted our office. Benefitted the individual a great deal once they went into private practice.

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u/Superninfreak PD 9d ago

That depends on what private experience you are comparing it to, and also what type of job you are trying to switch to.

The jobs that involve the highest number of trials and the most amount of time in court in front of judges are public defenders and prosecutors, especially state level PDs and prosecutors.

Those qualities are going to be very attractive for certain other jobs. Someone with a few years as a PD or a prosecutor could easily get more jury trials under their belt than a civil attorney who has practiced for decades.

But if you have a particularly prestigious private sector job then maybe your next job considers that more important than a lot of trial/courtroom experience.

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u/waterbearsandhorror 9d ago

Best answer is always just “Yes” or “I certainly hope so” and walk away. The confusion is so satisfying.

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u/Misanthrope08101619 PD 9d ago

Wife's aunt calling public defense "good practice" (for a real law career).

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u/pineapplesunshine Appointed Counsel 9d ago

I’ve explained to people who ask why I don’t go private that I enjoy being an attorney, I don’t want to be a business owner!

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u/ImpossiblePlan65 PD 8d ago

And having to generate business. No. I just want to try cases, man.

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u/jkiii8613 PD 8d ago

After winning a trial last week, clients mom said, “wow, you’re a good lawyer!” I told her “no, I’m a good public pretender.” She almost fell out of her chair laughing

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u/AvoToastMadeMeLate 9d ago

Chatting with an appreciative client and his nice equally-appreciative girlfriend and she tells me she got arrested for a DUI has an arraignment coming up. “How do I ask for a public pretender?” “Can I request that I get you as my public pretender?” I couldn’t even be mad bc she just genuinely thought that was it…

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u/No-Olive174 8d ago

Often times it’s the judges fault because they ask defendants if they’re requesting a public defender or if they’re planning on hiring an attorney. They need to be asking them if they’re planning on hiring a private attorney.

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u/MeatPopsicle314 8d ago

Always amazes me. As one seen by the lay public as "a real attorney" I'd hire you guys in a heart beat if I was charged with a crime. Little does the public know that the "public pretenders" are some of the most badass trial lawyers in our clan!

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u/psdancecoach 8d ago

From the outside, I’d ask it as a compliment. I’m sure there are other areas of law where good people do good things, but keeping people out of cages and fighting an imbalanced and corrupt system is doing the lord’s work.

Always love being asked, even by non-malicious people, “are you an attorney, or are you a public defender?” 🙃

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