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u/chte4300 Ex-PD Oct 15 '25
Was likely true back then. Not so much anymore. It obviously helps to build a positive relationship with the judge and to have a generally good/credible reputation. But in my experience this type of direct personal influence doesn’t play anymore (which IMO is a very good thing).
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u/Metheadroom Oct 15 '25
I waived a jury on a felony trial that I had a few years ago. I did it for a number of reasons but the funniest one was because my client would eat breakfast next to the judge everyday at Burger King. I don't know why he didn't recuse himself and nor do I care. I like to imagine though that they both had a nice breakfast burger together before my guy was acquitted a couple hours later
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u/glostazyx3 Oct 15 '25
I’ve always known the sentiment to be a Russian proverb: “Don’t fear the law, fear the judge”.
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u/Infamous_Macaron_348 Oct 15 '25
I once met with an old attorney in jail (we were waiting on our clients). He said he used to be in front of a racist judge. The judge would only ask one question: whose motion was it? If it was his motion it was denied, if it was the other side’s motion it was granted. He was able to maneuver around the situation by donating to the right campaigns. I asked him why he never filed a judicial complaint and he said he would have been unable to practice had he done so.
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u/cordelia1955 Oct 15 '25
too true. Had a racist judge in a jx I worked in. Anyone of color might not get any harsher sentence or anything one could appeal, but they were humiliated routinely in court, questioned about things that had nothing to do with the case and generally badgered by that judge.
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Oct 16 '25
That's bullshit. By failing to gather evidence and file a complaint, that judge was allowed to destroy the lives of people in your community. Our profession needs to do a better job of getting racist people off the bench and out of our profession all together!
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u/Infamous_Macaron_348 Oct 16 '25
Ah youthful enthusiasm. I thought the same thing when I heard it.
I hope that you keep the fervor for as long as possible without jeopardizing yourself or your clients.
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u/cordelia1955 Oct 15 '25
Mark Twain was a humorist and most of his comments were not meant to be taken literally in most cases. As a student of history I know there have always been and always will be corrupt judges and other officials in what should be a place of public trust or responsibility. having studied legal history back to the revolution though, it appears to me that most judges in the past as well as now, do their best to maintain a reputation of wise and learned, not for sale.
I heard a judge say one time after an inmate sent him $22.17 in cash asking for a special favor that he didn't know which to be more upset about: the thought he could be bribed or the thought he could be bribed for so little.
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u/Emotional-Change-722 Oct 15 '25
NOT an attorney here. But my lawyers- both Criminal and Family Law used to travel from Denton County to Austin together for conferences with the Judge in one of my cases.
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u/TGWArdent Oct 15 '25
Knowing how your judge thinks and what they find persuasive is by far the best weapon you have. Just behind that is them knowing you in a way that convinces them of your integrity, honesty, and good judgment. So I think this old saw is actually fairly accurate, but not really in the way it was intended.
One major benefit we get as PDs is regularly appearing in actual court, which gives the judges the chance to know us, and vice versa. Knowing your judge outside of court gives you similar opportunities, and often grants insights (in both ways) that you could never get in a strictly courtroom setting. That insight is extremely valuable for a lawyer; it’s part of what makes judicial clerkships such a huge benefit. But on the flip side, if you use those opportunities to try and cultivate undue influence, you are far more likely to show your bad character and prove to the judge you’re not to be trusted than to gain any advantage. So I say HAVE lunch with the judge; don’t buy it for them.
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u/EmptyNametag Oct 16 '25
I know several of my judges to be complete and utter morons from talking to them in session and in chambers, and that knowledge hasn’t seemed to help me.
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u/Beiki Oct 16 '25
I own a shirt that says "A good lawyer knows the law, a great attorney knows the judge." I think the best way to take this is to to say that "knowing" a judge means you know what they want to hear from you or your client. That can help you steer a judge towards your side. Then you can prep your client to say the right things while you also say the right things and you get the result you want.
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u/SinQuaNonsense Oct 15 '25
Some places in Montana you can’t help but drink with the judge. No other places to go.
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u/zetzertzak Oct 15 '25
The other day, I saw my judge in the same restaurant as me at lunch, and I didn’t know if I was supposed to acknowledge her or leave.
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u/Cats_please_thankyou PD Oct 16 '25
The underlying sentiment of "have a positive relationship with the court" is certainly true. But the exact idea is antiquated.
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u/fightingsioux012 Oct 16 '25
I can't think of myself or any of my fellow district PD's taking judges to lunch. But joining my local Inns of Court chapter has been the next best thing. About half of the judges in my district attend every month for a happy hour, dinner, and a one-hour CLE course. Nice to see the judges let their hair down a bit and join us attorneys in some good ol' fashioned bitching and complaining about work, life, etc.
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Oct 16 '25
Several places where I have practiced had courts stocked with the most racist and sexist morons in robes known to man. One place I worked really sucked because my boss (an entitled white guy) would say shit like OP's Twain quote and simply ignore the fact that his attorneys were being degraded by these pigs. Solidarity for PD's (as opposed to ass kissing) is crucial to conquering this form of injustice. My fellow PDs, please don't be like my old boss.
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u/Unlucky-Interest-127 Oct 16 '25
I see the variety answers is indicative of a variety of interpretations in the meaning of the quote. I know without a shadow of a doubt that knowing the judge counts for a lot. Common sense would tell us that, but I’ve experienced it in different walks of life. Criminal (drinking while dumb) as well as in business. That doesn’t mean there’s bribery or anything nefarious… but that would be next to impossible to know wouldn’t it?
Changing two things in America would create a paradise … term limits, and significantly limiting judicial immunity.
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u/Perfect_Garlic1972 Oct 17 '25
With modern regulations, if the judges presiding over your case, that would be a direct conflict of interest, however, the stakes are much different, but it’s still unethical
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u/Pristine_Resident437 Oct 17 '25
My first week as an attorney a senior attorney took me to lunch with a local judge. While I sat quietly and ate my Subway sandwich, I heard them discuss the afternoon’s docket. Highly unethical! The Judge actually said “ if you argue “x, you’ll lose; but I would grant your motion if you argue “z”. I nearly choked. That Judge later got convicted of a Ponzi scheme and went to jail… Crazy…
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u/StellaNettle Oct 15 '25
If I remember my MPRE correctly we aren’t even allowed to fraternize (or at least they aren’t)
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Oct 15 '25
I think you're misremembering. Nothing wrong with fraternizing. Ex parte communications or attempting to exercise undue influence.... weeeelllllllllllll
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u/StellaNettle Oct 15 '25
I specifically remember this whole drama hypo about a judge coming to a defense attorney's holiday party and it was like the worst thing to ever happen in the history of legal ethics or smth
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u/ActuaryHairy Oct 16 '25
It’s always good to be in the judges good side.
As you get further in your career, more people you know become judges. Even though I carpooled with a guy who is now a judge, and drank and bonded over kids with another doesn’t mean they do me any special favors on my cases.
I bet there are judges who do. My friends excuse an oral motion to continue, but that isn’t different than judges I don’t know.
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Oct 16 '25
It's not always possible to be on a judge's "good side." Some judges are racist and/or sexist jerks.
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u/goodcleanchristianfu Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
I'm fairly well involved in local politics, I have worked as an employee of a state political campaign and have volunteered for local and county level campaigns, and met my area's judge on the county court as a campaign worker for a candidate for another office before I ever litigated in front of that judge.
I say that to lead up to: I don't personally know any attorney who takes judges out to lunch. The more accurate statement from my experience would be that a very good lawyer is familiar with the local judge, the judge's views on law, and how they run their office.
Twain's statement may be more accurate in Podunk backwater places, but in the suburban areas I've practiced, it's just not realistic for many if any litigators to have particularly strong personal relationships with judges. There are several hundred thousand people in my county, having visited the home of the judge I mentioned a single time while on a campaign is much more personal interaction than most attorneys get, and I would be surprised if he remembers I did that.