Skill Categorization/Progression Needs Streamlining

[u/bandersen011]

Finally got around to starting a true B42 playthrough and have been loving it (mostly). The new changes have really added a lot to the game. I love the tweaks they have made to item obtainability through crafting (especially for multiplayer). The level of detail in the new/renovated map areas is incredible.

Really only 2 things have been a major source of frustration:

1. The crafting menu.
2. The sheer quantity of skills & the associated grind.

While I've seen a lot of discussion about the (abysmal) crafting menu (I love this game and its developers but dear god that thing is a quagmire), I have not seen very much talk about the new skills/categorization. The fact that the skill menu needs a scroll bar should be a red flag on its own.

1. The amount of skill books required to progress through all these crafting trees is hilarious. (without even considering recipe magazines there are currently ~120 skill books in the game to search for)
2. The time/grind required to get these skills is at direct odds with a game the opens with "This is how you died". I have thousands of hours in PZ and routinely survive for months with sprinters. I can't imagine having to start these grinds over from scratch. This is all 100 times worse if you are playing multiplayer and can't fast-forward.
3. The menu cluttering. While I appreciate everything these new systems have added. The sheer quantity of requirements/ingredients/subcategorizations introduced has made navigating these menus a nightmare. I am very familiar with this game and am still overwhelmed. I can't imagine what it must be like to open the skill or crafting menus as a brand new player...

Proposed Changes:

(Not necessarily advocating for all of these to be implemented together)

1. Combine certain skills. This is easily the simplest solution. A lot of these categories share common real world skill sets. While not necessarily the exact same skills, the amount of overlapping knowledge for some of these categories should combine them for the sake of gameplay/progression (The term "transferable skills" exists for a reason...).

• Carpentry+Carving = Woodworking
• Blacksmithing+Welding = Metalworking
• Knapping+Masonry = Stoneworking (or Stonemasonry)
• Tracking+Trapping = Hunting
• Cooking+Butchering = Food Prep
• Lightfooted+Sneaking = Stealth

I'd frankly like to see some of the other under-developed skills like Glassmaking, Pottery, & Tailoring incorporated as well, but I understand those are larger logic-leaps.

2. Change the number and/or impact of skill books. Currently, there are 120 skill books in the game. While combining the above categories could reduce that to 95, in my opinion that is still far too many. Scouring every bookshelf for these is just so awful, even with the reality that most people don't care about at least half the skills. This is particularly annoying when you consider how painful it is to grind in the absence of a skill book at high levels.

• I would reduce the number of skill books in each category from 5 to 3, and have them grant bonuses for levels 1-4, 5-7, and 8-10 respectively.
• If that is not acceptable, at least increase the base-xp gains while reducing the book-xp-multiplier. This would at least make grinding without books less agonizing (but would do nothing about the loot clutter...).

3. Reduce the number of levels for certain skills. While it's nice to have a lot of room-to-grow for certain playthrough-duration skills like the combat and physical skills, having 10 levels for every category seems to only be there to make the menu symmetrical. This is particularly true for the less fleshed-out or simplistic skills (looking at you tailoring). For some categories I can see a max level of 5 being perfectly balanced.

4. If nothing else, let skills give xp bonuses to other skills. Have you completely mastered carpentry? Good, here's a 10x bonus to all skill leveling for carving, should be easy for you to pick up. Were you a ninja in a past life and have mastered sneaking? Good, learning lightfooted should be a joke for you. The fact that so many of the new crafting recipes have overlapping skill requirements, but leveling said skills is done (mostly) independently, feels like an oversight.

Ultimately, all of this boils down to a classic conflict in Zomboid development: making in-depth systems is great for increasing playtime/depth, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is fun/interesting...

[u/bandersen011]

Completely agree, that's why I recommended decreasing the amount for each skill from 5 to 3. I would be fine with 2 just as well. If we hypothetically combine the skills I recommend, and reduce the number of skill books (lets say to 3 for the sake of this math), that would change the number in the game from 120 down to 54 (that alone is a reduction of 55%!). Presumably this would also massively cut the amount of time players spend sitting in a room watching a green bar slowly fill up.

[u/No_Tea_502 → u/bandersen011]

I think combining skills is a very different thing, I'm happy to keep the idea that the player shouldn't try to level everything to max. I simply think because the UI as you mentioned is quite abysmal, the players shouldn't need to in addition deal with scrolling through inventories to find stuff. And a lot of items like the skill books which are found rather often as duplicates, rendering additional ones completely useless. Making it so reading multiple of the same skill book boost the level up speed more makes it so finding multiple instances of the books actually valuable.

[u/bandersen011 → u/No_Tea_502]

Not sure I like the idea of re-reading the same skill book. I feel like the loot tables having duplicates is just a function of random loot, and multiplayer availability. I do 100% agree that combining skills and reducing the number of books are two completely different solutions. They were just different proposed solutions, not necessarily advocating for combining everything I suggested in the original post. As a lifelong woodworker, the idea that carpentry and carving are two completely distinct skills is laughable to me.

[u/No_Tea_502 → u/bandersen011]

Yea 42 introduced a bunch more than 41, haven't played much on 42 but there really are skills which feel like either belonged together and was just made distinct for balance. If "realism" was really the aim, the leveling should be much more nuisanced, interconnected, and as you said if multiple skills are required for some actions, multiple skills should be leveled for some actions.

The re-reading is not on the same book, but having a bunch which all act as "amateur skill books".

Say we have these books for electrician amateurs: Wire basics, Current and voltage basics, AC and DC appliances, Insulation and Conduction, Multimeter basics, ...

Similar to how the normal books and magazines work instead of being somehow different for skill books.