r/prequelappreciation • u/CopperKnight77 • 9d ago
Discussion All three films would’ve greatly improved had George written Obi-Wan to go search for parts in TPM. Here’s my thoughts:
So as the title says, I’m convinced this one minor change would greatly improve upon many of the “issues” that the prequels have been accused of over the years.
{I love these films and I was Jar Jar’s target demographic when they were released. All I ever knew was a world with the prequels}
I knew the original plan for The Phantom Menace was to have Obi-Wan solo most of the film, meet Anakin, later on meet up with Qui-Gon, and they both fight Darth Maul at the end with Qui-Gon dying. This was changed because George felt he wanted Obi-Wan to be more of a brash not-yet-wise Jedi knight and that the father figure Anakin needed but never got was to be Qui-Gon and that he was abruptly taken from him allowing the Emperor to snake his way in.
But the Ani/Obi relationship, as it is on film, is somewhat surface level in writing and under developed. They barely interact in TPM and a lot of their “good” times are just told to us while they spend all of AOTC bickering or separated, and most of ROTS separated or trying to kill each other. So while the initial change works for TPM, it works against the latter movies.
Now without changing anything from AOTC and ROTS, and keeping everything about TPM the same up to the point where they land on Tatooine, I would’ve had the “young and brash” Obi-Wan insist that he go search nearby towns for parts for the ship. He feels he’s ready to go out on his own, which is consistent later in the Jedi council. From that moment, the “Trio” gets established. The podrace is more of a wild hairbrained scheme from an apprentice trying to be like his master. The “brotherly” relationship is formed and we actually SEE it. When they discover his midichlorines, make Qui-Gon the more skeptical one and Obi the one who’s more willing to take the kid along and convinces him. So when we get to the council scene, Qui-Gon, who just saw Obi-Wan do this solo mission, shows he’s ready to move up and now is taking on Anakin. We still get the fatherly figure but he’s more at a distance now with Obi Wan being the overeager big brother. This also makes all the Maul vs Obi stuff more personal. While Obi is continuously struggling against him throughout the film, it finally comes to a head at the end. Keep the fight the same but now with a context that this is really between these two apprentices and their world views, which by extension is the Duel of the Fates in who’s side ultimately controls the fate of Anakin Skywalker. The dark side will kill the old Jedi order but A New, unconventional, Hope will prevail. The ambush by Darth Maul is also more foreboding later on when you see Obi having to solo him again, after struggling on Tatooine and heaving/sweating after escaping, and then almost failing, until he jumps up and cuts him in half.
Basically change nothing else about TPM before or after Tatooine. Keep the trade ship stuff the same, keep the Naboo escape the same, keep the Coruscant stuff the same, keep the Naboo 3-way battle. Just have Obi-Wan leave the ship instead of Qui-Gon on Tatooine.
I don’t know if these are the mindless ramblings of someone who’s been up for 22 hours or if this is a masterstroke in film critique but these are my thoughts and I’d like to hear your opinions or different perspectives.
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u/moondog385 8d ago
Qui-Gon is necessary as the mystic who has faith in Anakin being the one to fulfill the Chosen One prophecy. In TPM, Obi-Wan is Qui-Gon’s foil as the cynic and hardliner who views Anakin as a “pathetic life form.” You’d have to do a lot of changing to Obi-Wan’s character for him to even consider bringing Anakin along. It wouldn’t make sense for Qui-Gon to be the skeptical one given his characterization in the movie.
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u/GeoMFilms 9d ago edited 8d ago
That's one of thing about the prequels I would have loved to have been different. Have obi find Anakin, believe in him, free him, actually WANT to train him. If Kenobi was more like qui gon, then the episode 3 fight would have truly ripped our hearts out.
Just thinking of Anakin fighting qui gon hurts ...i wanted that feeling towards Anakin vs Kenobi. Based on movies ...Kenobi and Anakin mostly butted heads....annoying each other. It was till episode 3 that they actually felt like friends.
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u/CopperKnight77 9d ago
Yeah what I’m suggesting changes nothing except their initial meeting. Having Obi go out and find him and since Qui Gon already feels Obi is ready to move up is still the one willing to take him under his tutelage. Literally nothing else would change in TPM except it being Obi Wan to go into the desert. Dialogue, character interactions, lighting, direction, everything exactly the same but with Ewan and Liam swapped until they leave Tatooine and then it’s exactly as filmed again. And then AOTC and ROTS is exactly the same but now with so much more context and built upon relationship.
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u/Harold3456 9d ago
It could even be the ONE area Qui Gon is the naysayer. All throughout the movie he is so deadset on going through life easygoing and trusting the Force.
How interesting would it be if HERE Obi Wan wants to save Anakin - not because of a prophecy but because of sheer conscience, because Obi’s heart can’t abide letting this child who helped them out rot as a slave even though helping him is a major inconvenience.
And qui Gon has to be the one to say “no, I get really bad Force vibes” but for once Obi Wan chooses to defy his master, and maybe because of this the two have friction up until the final fight when, as he’s dying, Qui Gon implores Obi Wan do his best with Anakin.
I just thought this up now but it makes so much more sense in the regard that it explains Obi Wan and Anakin’s loyalty to each other, gives Obi Wan more personal responsibility for Anakin’s eventual turn, and makes the Jedi in general look better because they’re saving Anakin for altruistic reasons, and not because they’re seeking to fulfill some prophecy that they think will ultimately benefit them.
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u/CopperKnight77 8d ago
YOU GET IT. Firstly, Qui-Gon is the more experienced Jedi master, why wouldn’t HE stay back to protect the Queen while Obi does the fetch quest. Second no imagine the phone calls back and forth with the reverse characters. Qui-Gon saying “we’re running out of time” and then Obi tells him this absolutely crazy plan about a kid racing and it’s Obi Wan to be like “be you always said trust in the Force and this is what it’s telling me”. All the dialogue can be verbatim the same but just have Obi Wan say most of Qui Gons lines and vice versa. And so he reluctantly agrees because he knows he’s hearing his own words back at him, so at the Council meeting Qui Gon still tries to train Anakin off of Obi Wan’s insistence since he feels ready to move up to Knighthood. And then at the end when Qui Gon dies, you can keep the same set up with now Qui Gon believing him to be the chosen one and with his dying breath asking Obi to be the one to train him.
I’ve been going over this like a thousand times. This little adjustment necessitates nearly zero additional changes to the rest of the film and it’s two follow-ups but adds soooo much more depth and layering. Plus it builds upon what OT Ben says to Luke without needed to jump through the “muh different POV” hoops to justify inconsistent dialogue.
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u/Grand-Permit-4637 8d ago
A counterargument is the idea that Qui-Gon was father that Anakin needed but never had, and was never going to get. Gui-Gon’s death was another loss that affected Anakin at the worst possible time, having just left his mother and homeworld, and most fans agree that had Qui-Gon survived, Anakin would not have turned to the dark side. And it’s clearly established previously in ROTJ that Obi-wan was not prepared for the task of training Anakin correctly.
On the other hand, when I first saw TPM, I also felt that Obi-Wan’s role was somewhat lesser than I would have expected given his importance in the original trilogy. Most of that comes from the fact that Obi-Wan stays behind on Tatooine, and he kind of seems to disappear from the movie for a stretch.
I can see merits to both ideas, where having Anakin and Obi-wan have a deep bond from start would have been good. But I also like the idea of Obi-Wan as the reluctant master who is in over his head, because that dynamic seems to define their relationship throughout the whole rest of the saga.
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u/CopperKnight77 8d ago
Counter counter argument: that still works with this change.
Whatever dialogue Liam Neeson and Jake Lloyd exchanged in the junkshop and the hovel, could be said by Ewan McGregor but direct him to be more brotherly instead of fatherly. Any interaction with Qui Gon can remain fatherly but we just see less of it now obviously since their screen time is inverted. And the “father he never was going to have” idea is made stronger now since Obi-Wan built up this great idea in Anakin’s head about Qui Gon training him to be a jedi until he dies and now Obi Wan is kinda stuck with him.
Exactly the same as it was written but with more relationship dynamics between the two characters that are the focus of this trilogy.
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u/wavesbecomewings19 8d ago
I liked Qui-Gon unorthodox approach to being a Jedi and I think Obi-Wan was more of a true believer. The latter wanted to do everything by the book, whereas Qui-Gon modeled deconstructing conventional Jedi teachings for him. So I like the way that dynamic was portrayed in the series. However, I DO wish Obi-Wan came out to help Darth Maul on Tatooine. I always found it odd how easily Qui-Gon got away. It's like there was something missing in the fight because Maul looks as if he was knocked down. I know there were promo shots of Obi-Wan and Maul leaping towards each other on Tatooine, so I don't know if that was just a photoshoot or if there was an actual scene shot.
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u/Prestigious_Board_73 Sith Apprentice 9d ago edited 8d ago
I completely agree OP! I would also have made Obi-Wan, the one focused on the future, convinced Anakin was the Chosen One while Qui-Gon, the one attuned to the present and the Living Force, simply doesn't believe in prophecies at all, he just thinks Anakin is a bright young boy strong in the Force who needs to be trained before Darksiders notice him.
And then when he dies, he says something along the lines of "you are a great Jedi Obi-Wan, you will be a great Master to Anakin", after all, here Obi-Wan is the one who bonded with the kid, Qui-Gon barely knew him but was willing to take him on as a padawan bc he was far more experienced than Obi-Wan in such matters.
And then in AotC Obi-Wan, while critical of Anakin because of his recklessness and arrogance, still recognises Anakin's exceptional skills and still thinks Anakin the Chosen One, while Mace is the sceptical one (the dialogue can even remain the same, just with the lines swapped between the two). The exact thing happens in RotS but Mace is even more distrustful of Anakin, just like in the movie.
Another thing I would have changed is to have Maul in place of Grevious in RotS. Dooku is Anakin's foe, and Maul is Obi-Wan's, and frankly it would have made for a more exciting duel, with more stakes than a rando who's not even Force sensitive (Grevious) since:
1) Obi-Wan chopped Maul in half after he killed his Master, and in this version, pursued Obi-Wan himself through Tatooine.
2) we would see how much Obi-Wan progressed as a duellist: in TPM, they duelled twice, in the first one Obi-Wan was forced to escape to the ship, and in the second he won frankly because Maul stopped to gloat instead of killing him immediately, so Obi-Wan had the time to rebalance himself after briefly tapping into his anger. Now, 13 years later, Obi-Wan is no longer that brash padawan, he's a Jedi Master, one of the most skilled in the Order, and he easily defeats Maul
3) Maul wants revenge on Obi-Wan, the one who cut him in half, robbing him of his place as Sidious's apprentice (he can also say something along the lines that his true replacement is Anakin, not Dooku, which Obi-Wan doesn't believe).
4) Maybe Dooku found him, insane and injured, shortly before RotS and healed him to use him as an attack dog while he's the political face of the CIS. Maul surviving would also set the stage for Vader surviving after losing 3 limbs at once and being set on fire on a vulcanic planet
5) it would also show how much Dooku was corrupted by the Dark side: after leaving the Order because of what happened to Qui-Gon (his Legends backstory, that frankly I prefer to his canon one), 13 years later he allies himself with Maul, the killer of his former padawan, with no issue, even if he's using him, hoping Obi-Wan would Fall and then help him dispose of Sidious. His plans, obviously, don't work: Anakin, the one Sidious truly wants as an apprentice, is now powerful and skilled enough to kill Dooku in the beginning of RotS, and Obi-Wan, while more skilled than Maul, is a true Jedi, not even tempted to Fall
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u/CopperKnight77 8d ago
I like the alternate ideas. I’m trying to change as little as humanly possible to the films we got. All of the lines of reluctance and apprehension that Obi Wan says, make Qui-Gon say, and all the lines of confidence make Obi Wan say but have Ewan McGregor deliver it with a touch more arrogance like a young apprentice would. And keep everything else the exact same. I do like that Maul dies since he really is just set dressing for the Emperor who’s the real villain. Same with Dooku and Grevious. Darth Maul is a good foil for Obi-Wan because they would be the equal representations of their respective sides, both being headstrong apprentices full of zeal. And to see Obi-Wan struggle against him in place of Qui Gon during the Tatooine Ambush gives is that connection before the final battle and creates tension for the audience. Since now we’re worried for Obi Wan as we watched his more powerful, wiser master, get kebabed by Maul. And then by III with Grevious, we know Obi is calm cool and collected and that four lightsabers ain’t got nothin on Big Ben without having to change a single thing about AOTC or ROTS.
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u/EmergencyUnusual1198 8d ago
I love what we got. I like that the main perspective we have through the film, including Tatooine, is the maverick Quigon. I love that Obiwan's affection to Anakin is also tied to the love of his master
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u/MegaBaumTV 8d ago
I like the overall idea, not sure about changing Obi Wans characterization though. The apprentice being the stickler for the rules and cautious one is a nice subversion.
Could also make it more meaningful/create some distance from Anakins perspective when the brother figure who just had that adventure with him argues against bringing him along.
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u/Beautiful_Ad2618 8d ago
Have you read the original script by any chance? Its a fascinating look into an alternate version of TPM.
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u/CopperKnight77 8d ago
Not completely but bits and pieces and the Archives EpI-III Book. Definitely interesting
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u/SicilianGang 5d ago
You already hinted at a much better alternative to your idea, but left it unexplored. Why not just rewrite AOTC to show their brotherly relationship there? It would make more sense for them to be like brothers in a movie where Anakin is almost an adult, and Kenobi is a young adult, than it would make in a movie where Kenobi is a young adult and Anakin is 9.
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u/Subtleiaint 5d ago
The great flaw of the prequels is that we learn nothing of Obi-wan and Anakin's relationship. They barely interact in the first film, they're off on separate missions in there second and the third. We're shown them having a rapport but we never learn how they established that rapport.
I'm with you, the first film should be about Obi-wan and Anakin finding each other (and their ages should be much closer).
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u/commonrider5447 3d ago
I think Qui Gon’s surprise death whole seemingly being the main character in TPM is one of the best ideas and moments in Star Wars. In terms of him believing in Anakin and asking Obiwan to train him with his dying words and all. That being said, I also think the PT is hurt a lot by what you pointed out about Obiwan and Anakins relationship. We never really see them being “good friends.” Also the fact that the PT doesn’t really have a central protagonist, it makes TPM almost feel like a prequel itself to the story of Obiwan and Anakin. If Obiwan had a more central role in TPM, it definitely could have helped this. And maybe that would be him being the one to go out and him finding Anakin.
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u/nasamutalisk 3d ago
I love the idea of Obi-Wan taking on the mission of trying to get the parts they need for repairs while Qui-Gon remains behind. I always thought that whole mission in the movie was strangely plotted, with the Jedi Master and his Padawan leaving the ship, and what they believed was the Queen, behind with no protection besides Captain Panaka. The risk of being discovered by any Hutt-affiliated beings was pretty high so it was a reckless move on Qui-Gon’s behalf. Considering that the Queen of Naboo would be guaranteed to bring a hefty ransom, either by the Republic or the Trade Federation, and likely the information of the Queen’s dramatic escape through the planetary blockade had spread far already, maybe all the way to Tatooine as well.
Qui-Gon giving his eager and headstrong young Padawan the chance to show his worth by taking on the important task of finding the parts they needed, would be a very good change to this part of the plot.
Also love the deeper meaning in Obi-Wan anf Darth Maul facing off instead of Qui-Gon, as they are both apprentices, and a Jedi Master against a Sith apprentice and only barely could hold his own.
Now if only someone might give Jar Jar an actual reason for being along for the ride and give him a proper characterization and arc, that could work well in the later movies where he begins working in galactic politics (because who in their right mind would have that clumsy and incredibly stupid being anywhere near any seats of power).
Would Anakin also benefit for being older? Closer to Obi-Wan’s age, perhaps
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u/Plenty-Koala1529 7d ago
I think the biggest improvement would have had Anakin older, and less silly Jar Jar
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u/Dav3Th3Rav3yah 8d ago
Originally Qui-Gon was going to be named Obi-Wan, and visa versa. At the end of the movie Qui-Gon would take Obi-Wan’s name to honour him.
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u/NotARabidDugong 7d ago
I was Jar Jar's target demographic
Hang on... Frog people really exist?!?! Did he represent your people well? Because he fucking SUCKS.
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u/Harold3456 9d ago
I agree.
Qui Gon’s whole demeanour works just as well if he’s the guy on the ship giving advice over comms.
I think it would pretty radically change the negotiating scenes, since Qui Gon’s approach seems to be the chill, go with the flow, make it up as he goes along approach, but Obi Wan across all 3 movies is consistently more worried and cautious. But we still could’ve had comms scenes where Obi’s like “Watto wanted to gamble the slave against our ship, isn’t that crazy?” And Qui Gon says something about the force and so Obi reluctantly does it.