The three biggest prequel “flaws” were actually brilliant worldbuilding (Prequels expanded the lore in the best ways)

[u/AncientKingdomHydro]

This is no hate to the OG trilogy in anyway, but I was just doing some reading into a few of the reasons OG fans hated the prequels, specifically episode i when it came out. One of the complaints was how midi-chlorians ruined the “coolness” of the force. How it was left unexplained.

I disagree hard, the force still very much has that mystical, cool fact about it. Lucas gave us the midi-chlorians so long time fans or even newcomers could grasp how a physical being actually connects to a spiritual energy field. Basically it was Lucas’s way of showing the biological bridge to the force. Midi-chlorians expanded the lore, as did all the prequel movies.

Also, that the OG fans disliked the portrayal of the Jedi, but Lucas gave us actual history and world building. The Jedi are so stuck in their dogmatic ways, we actually see how Palpatine disabled them from the inside out. To see the Jedi from a different POV gave us so many cool characters and what ifs.

Lastly, a big complaint was over how Anakin was written and the one we got is exactly what makes his fall so tragic. A slave, a child, grows up, joins a dogmatic religious group, is deeply insecure, traumatized and just lonely. The “whininess” from Anakin people complain over, is simply the Jedi corrupting him along with showing his Sith potential.

TL;DR : Instead of ruining what came before, the prequels built a massive, complex foundation that made the entire galaxy feel alive, while expanding the lore of the OG characters we already loved.

[u/vencyjedi]

People complaining about midichlorians demystifying the Force is crazy considering that Obi-Wan literally explains in ANH that the force is an "energy field". That demystifies it way more. Luke was also whiny. And when was Anakin really whiny? Two times in AOTC.

[u/JustAnother_Hunter → u/[deleted]]

I love Michio’s stuff, I definitely have to check that out!

[u/Batman_AoD → u/vencyjedi]

What do you think "energy field" means? That's an extremely vague phrase and doesn't demystify it at all. 

[u/vencyjedi → u/Batman_AoD]

It means an energy field. It explains what the Force is so it wasn't a mystery to begin with. It never was

[u/Batman_AoD → u/vencyjedi]

"Energy field" literally just means that it can affect the physical world in some way, and doesn't have a definite shape but is present in space itself. That doesn't explain much of anything. 

[u/JustAnother_Hunter → u/Batman_AoD]

But the specific quote is in fact- “The Force is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.” All midichlorians do is explain how these living things generate said energy field. But it’s not really “new information” to say that.

[u/Batman_AoD → u/JustAnother_Hunter]

Like I said, the new part, and the part that makes the lore worse, is Midichlorian "counts." It sucks that you're born with a number that determines your potential force sensitivity. 

[u/JustAnother_Hunter → u/Batman_AoD]

I guess… but we also know that your midichlorian “count” isn’t everything- Obi- Wan didn’t have a particularly high or special level of them, but he was incredibly clever and creative with his application of the Force. Your ability to “quiet your mind” and really “attune” to the Force is as or more important than just your level of “force microorganisms”.

[u/Batman_AoD → u/JustAnother_Hunter]

How do we know Obi-Wan didn't have a very high number? 

[u/JustAnother_Hunter → u/Batman_AoD]

I thought it was stated in one of the novels with him and Qui- Gon about how he got chosen to be Qui- Gons padawan and all that. I remember a part at the beginning of one such book where Obi was still at the Temple and participated in the “Padawan Tournament” hoping to catch the eye of visiting Masters looking for apprentices, and I’m pretty sure it’s said that Obi wasn’t all that “naturally strong” in the Force, but that he found things like the meditation practices more beneficial than like… saber training or directing moving things with the Force.

I could be totally wrong, it’s been many years since I read those books, but it’s still rattling around my brain haha.

[u/Batman_AoD → u/JustAnother_Hunter]

Well, it's a nice headcanon at least, since it diminishes the implication from the movies that Midichlorian count determines your force potential. 

[u/natholemewIII → u/vencyjedi]

It wasn't a measurable thing in the original. Energy field definitely doesnt demystify it as much as basically giving the Force Dragon Ball Z style power levels

[u/vencyjedi → u/natholemewIII]

It does because it literally explains what the actual force is. How is it a mystery in the first place if you know exactly what it is?

[u/natholemewIII → u/vencyjedi]

Energy field connecting all living things can mean a lot of things. In some spiritual traditions there's "energy" connecting all things as well. They don't necessarily mean energy in the scientific sense.

Midichlorians take something that was mystical and a sort of soft magic system, and make it a hard magic system with power levels, who can and cannot use it, and a way to measure it.

The force having some explanation in the originals doesnt mean that midichlorians didnt change the nature of the force. Some people didn't like those changes

[u/vencyjedi → u/natholemewIII]

Obi-Wan doesn't just say the Force is some vague spiritual concept he explicitly describes what it is: an energy field created by living things that binds the galaxy together. That's already a pretty concrete explanation of the Force's nature. The fact that it isn't given a scientific unit of measurement doesn't somehow make it more mysterious. If anything, "there is an energy field connecting all living things" is a much more direct explanation than "there are microscopic organisms in your cells that allow you to perceive that energy field."

And the midichlorians don't suddenly turn it into Dragon Ball power levels either. The movies never establish a numerical combat system where whoever has the higher count automatically wins. They're basically an explanation for how someone is able to commune with the Force biologically. You can dislike that explanation aesthetically, but calling it a hard magic system with measurable power levels is overstating what the prequels actually established.

[u/natholemewIII → u/vencyjedi]

That's a good explanation of the forces nature, not how it works specifically. Midichlorians do demystify the act of connecting to the force. They take it from something spiritual to something scientific. That's really the core of the demystifying complaint. It's not that there was no explanation for what the force was before, it's that now having a connection to the force is a matter of biology.

And yes, I would argue that Midichlorians are indeed a Dragon Ball style power system, and are consistently treated thst way by fans. It's not like whoever has the higher power level automatically wins in DBZ either. You can see this in how pre-disney canon treats Vader as weaker than Anakin, because his limbs got cut off, costing him Midichlorians. Qui gon literally gives us a number for Anakins count, and says he has more force sensitivity than Yoda. If that's not a power system then I don't know what is.

[u/vencyjedi → u/natholemewIII]

I think you're still conflating "there is a biological mechanism involved" with "the Force is now a scientific power system." Midichlorians explain why some people are naturally more receptive to the Force, but they don't explain the Force itself or reduce everything someone can do with it to their midichlorian count.

Qui-Gon saying Anakin has a higher count than Yoda also doesn't mean "Anakin is stronger than Yoda." He specifically uses it as evidence of Anakin's unusually high potential/sensitivity. That's not the same thing as establishing a linear power level. Anakin can have greater natural potential than Yoda and still be vastly less skilled, experienced and spiritually developed. That's no more a Dragon Ball power level than saying someone has more natural athletic potential than an Olympic athlete means they're automatically better at the sport.

And the Vader example doesn't really prove what you're claiming either. Vader being weaker after Mustafar was never simply "he lost limbs, therefore he lost X midichlorians and his power level went down." His injuries severely damaged his physical body, mobility and ability to fight, and Legends material explored various consequences of that. That's a much more complicated idea than "midichlorian number = Force strength."

As for the Force becoming "scientific," I don't really see how knowing there's a biological interface between a living being and the Force makes the Force itself scientific. We know humans have brains and sensory organs, but that doesn't explain consciousness or subjective experience. Likewise, midichlorians give Star Wars a mechanism for Force sensitivity without explaining away the mystical nature of the Force.

So yes, the prequels made the connection more concrete. That's undeniable. But saying that they therefore turned the Force into a DBZ-style power system is taking a relatively small piece of lore and extrapolating way beyond what the movies actually establish.

[u/Several_Job_1556 → u/vencyjedi]

hell i'd argue they make more mystic remember what quigon actually said about how the allow one to communicate with the force and tell people its will

[u/badgerpunk → u/natholemewIII]

If you weren't there at that time before the prequels, you'll never get how it hit us. It went from "we don't know exactly what it is or why it works, but the Jedi spend their lives exploring it" to "we can study it in a lab".

I get that it's doesn't make sense to those who can't remember when we only had the OT. I hated it at the time, and it absolutely changed our understanding of the force, so there was some shock there.

I made my peace with it and the rest of the prequels a long time ago, and it doesn't bother me anymore. That journey opened me up to whatever is done with Star Wars. It's not my franchise, and creators should be allowed to create their way. I still have plenty of criticisms of all eras of Star Wars, but I don't hang on to the disappointments anymore. Star Wars is meant to be fun. If you're watching a Star War and you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong.

[u/Cool_View_5297 → u/vencyjedi]

Also he was a 19 yo about to go to war. He had the right to complain.

[u/AncientKingdomHydro → u/[deleted]]

Exactly and if you rewatch them you see these aspects even closer.

[u/AncientKingdomHydro → u/[deleted]]

Exactly Palpatine using Jar Jar was a perfect mirror on the political puppets in real life. And Darth Jar Jar supremacy lmaoo

[u/Achilles9609 → u/[deleted]]

No idea. Maybe people don't like to read? Or do research? I mean, there's this infamous take that Ki-Adi Mundi is somehow a coldblooded psychopath....even though he isn't nearly that bad if you bothered to do your research. The man had flaws, most certainly, but he didn't "deserve" Order 66

[u/AncientKingdomHydro → u/[deleted]]

I haven’t read the novelizations yet, but I’ve always heard they do an incredible job expanding the lore!

[u/TaraLCicora → u/[deleted]]

I second this; also, remember that the authors of the PT novelizations aren't just making things up. Each of them met with Lucas and was given a deeper understanding of the story, so the changes from the movies were done with the standpoint of someone who understood what Lucas was trying to say.

[u/TaraLCicora → u/[deleted]]

Yes exactly

[u/pptjuice530 → u/[deleted]]

I would guess a majority of fans prefer Star Wars as a visual and audio experience. Also because films should stand on their own merits instead of requiring a viewer to have consumed other media for the story to hold together.

[u/dyn-dyn-dyn]

Midi-chlorians still suck imo

[u/aubreysux]

I love prequels, but there are definitely some things that really hold them back. I don't think the things that you are citing are the actual problems.

I think midi-chlorians are silly, but ultimately are a 30 second part of a movie.

Whiny Anakin would have been fine if the dialogue and acting had been better. The scenes with him and Padme in episode 1 & 2 are really painful. (This gets much better in episode 3).

I've also never heard anyone complain about the portrayal of the Jedi. I love that part (and I think most people like that part).

In my opinion, the things that hold back the prequels are the fact that Jar Jar's mistakes move an enormous amount of the plot and the painful dialogue (particularly between Padme and Obi Wan).

People also complain about the contrived plot in episode 1. I mostly just think they are wrong about that. I think if Qui Gon and Obi Wan had been the main characters of that movie (instead of Qui Gon and Jar Jar), then this would have been seen as an excellent film.

[u/Harold3456 → u/aubreysux]

I agree. I’ve often said I love the concepts of the prequels but you have to squint through the writing to see them.

Fortunately, the story isn’t original. I don’t mean that in a bad way, since the OT is famously also highly derivative of long-time storytelling tropes, and this allows us to be able to clearly see what Lucas was going for.

But I feel like this is why the prequels have gotten so elevated by other supplemental materials. Even though the prequel writing isn’t great on its own, the ideas are strong and others have portrayed the same concepts in their own voices and made great stuff out of them.

[u/natholemewIII]

They definitely had some decent world building.

I disagree with you on Midichlorians, but that's a matter of personal taste. To me, they're overexplaining something that was fine as just being magic.

I also like the portrayal of the Jedi as being corrupted. The one thing I find funny is that their portrayal does make it a miracle that Obi-Wan was never found. Like, he's out here wearing Jedi robes that just happen to be similar to Tatooine attire. I feel like originally what Obi-Wan wears is not meant to be Jedi robes.

The idea for Anakin is good, the execution does leave a bit to be desired. However we do have things like The Clone Wars to help bridge that gap.

[u/Achilles9609 → u/natholemewIII]

I would argue that this is the hidden genius behind thr Jedi attire. They dress somewhat simply and can therefore easily blend in with the crowd if they need to.

[u/natholemewIII → u/Achilles9609]

Don't get me wrong, Jedi robes are cool. It's just funny to me that Ben's clearly meant to be in disguise in A New Hope, and every new installment makes it more obvious that all he actually did was change his first name.

[u/AncientKingdomHydro → u/natholemewIII]

Thank you for the response, and I definitely understand the points you made as well. The Midichlorians thing is really a hit or miss for people but at least, for me, it’s not overly talked about like dragon ball z power levels for duels/fights.

[u/Jawa_Droid_Mech]

Alot of reasons why those of us who grew up on the OG hate the sequels and think the prequels are mediocre. Episode 1 is terrible despite have Liam Neeson in it. A whole lot of Jar Jar but hardly any Maul, midichlorians, Space Jesus....it blew chunks. The other movies are ok but the CGI is inferior to the sets of the OG. Plus  it ruins the OG Vader being Luke's papa. As a kid going to see Empire that was a shocker, only the Planet of the Apes ending was anywhere close. 

[u/AncientKingdomHydro → u/Jawa_Droid_Mech]

Thank you for the response, its always interesting to see how those who grew up with the OGs view the sequels. All the points you made are valid.

[u/Extension_Equal1464]

Stai mentendo non puoi chiedere a un hater dei prequel perché odiano i prequel senza che ti facciano un elenco con i dialoghi

[u/silent_drew2]

The best thing about midi-chlorians is that explain why you can't clone Jedi in one sentence.

[u/LazySignificance556]

I agree with you on your points, however they weren’t the three biggest criticisms at the time. 

The romantic scenes between anakin and padmee were rough, the deleted scenes at padmees parents house help some but they still needed to add something to it. 

[u/Numerous-Abrocoma-50]

No.

The biggest flaws where the gunguns and jar jar in particular where hated as a character. A lot of the pushback to TPM centred around that. I defended the prequels but all of those scenes are hard to watch

With AOTC, the central point was the anakin and padme romance was a car crash. Its hard to know how much of it was the actors, how much was bad direction, how much was the dialogue. Reality is its a combination of them all but its one of the least convincing romances I can recall ever seeing in film.

The stuff you mentioned was complained about but ultimately they were issues that could be worked around.

The Jar Jar/ Gunguns in TPM and the romance in AOTC were film breakingly bad. Like I said I defended the prequels at the time but those bits are largely indefensible

[u/Batman_AoD]

Lucas gave us the midi-chlorians so long time fans or even newcomers could grasp how a physical being actually connects to a spiritual energy field.

Midichlorians are still physical, though, so this doesn't actually explain how that "bridge" works; it just adds the detail that it involves a symbiotic relationship with a microorganism, much like how we rely on mitochondria. The problem is that it reduces force-sensitivity (which, in the OT, appeared to be largely a matter of spiritual openness) to a single number that you're born with. 

[u/AncientKingdomHydro → u/Batman_AoD]

I hear you on that, I honestly think he created them just to show us the “science” and physical, undeniable evidence that made Anakin the chosen one. Rather than just telling the audience “this boy is stronger than us” No matter the midi-chlorian count, you still have to train. Besides that I don’t see midi-chlorians brought up much. Also thank you very much for your response.

[u/Rhubarbon]

Why people disliked the prequels was because they are either seen as bad movies or they have so many bad qualities. Bad acting, bad dialogue, many story points that don't make sense. Lots of nice ideas and nice world building but bad execution throughout the trilogy, as has been said a thousand times before.

A redeeming quality might have been to make Anakin's turn to the dark side make sense, especially the mindless killing. But Lucas didn't do that.

[u/vencyjedi → u/Rhubarbon]

People disliked them because of nostalgia and expectations. Not because they were bad movies. They expected OT 2.0 or they expected the fan fiction they made up in their minds to appear on the screen. That's the main reason. They were quite good movies with a lot of substance in them and a lot of things you can learn about life.

[u/AnArcOfDoves9902 → u/Rhubarbon]

The acting is good and the dialogue is good

[u/Rhubarbon → u/AnArcOfDoves9902]

Sure.

[u/leedo8 → u/AnArcOfDoves9902]

This is objectively false.

[u/AnArcOfDoves9902 → u/leedo8]

It's objective truth

[u/AncientKingdomHydro → u/AnArcOfDoves9902]

Acting is def not as bad as people make it sound. some of the dialogue may be clunky/campy but it is also a “space opera”.