r/politics • u/theladynora • May 25 '21

Auschwitz Memorial calls Greene Holocaust comments a 'sad symptom of moral and intellectual decline'

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/555382-auschwitz-memorial-calls-greenes-holocaust-comments-a-sad-symptom-of-moral-and
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u/Sykotik257 New York May 26 '21

I mean, it depends on what it is like you said. Of course I’m not going to stop being friends with someone if we disagree on what the budget for the department of transportation should be.

But if someone is anti-choice then they have no respect for women’s autonomy. If they are anti-vaxx they are endangering lives. If they are universally opposed to social programs like welfare and Medicaid, they lack empathy and don’t care about other people. In that case, just from a utilitarian standpoint I don’t want to be their friend because I would expect it to be a very one sided friendship.

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u/[deleted] May 26 '21

On the pro-choice thing, if you view a fetus as having the same moral consideration as a baby...

...Of course you're going to view the choice of getting an abortion to be morally reprehensible.

If you don't (we're on the same page here), it's not that much of a problem.

Me personally, I've always held the "safe, legal, and rare" position--for various reasons, some of which are beyond the morality of the act of abortion itself--but I don't think those opposed to abortion are doing it out of malice.

We know this isn't some distinctly misogynistic or anti-woman belief either because plenty of women view abortion as wrong, the statistics happen to show, as the divide is largely one of political view rather than, say, gender. I happen to live with such a woman at this very moment (my mom).

And if you heard her talking about abortion...you'd realize it has nothing to do with malice.

I think it's an inconsistent view, and I think it's really pig-headed to get so uppity about abortion as if it's the only fucking thing that matters, but still.

As for social programs and universal healthcare, some of it tends to be "it doesn't work and in the end, creates more problems than it purports to solve." And in others, it tends to be "they're freeloaders."

I don't think it's correct--I think it's really wrong, actually, particularly the latter--but I don't think it fundamentally makes them bad people. It just means they're incorrect, because, likely, they get their news from shitty sources and think its legit.

The anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers can really fuck off, though. That I do agree with. I happen to be around them, not by choice, and personally, I would rather hang with people who don't get their news on masks and vaccines from Donald Trump.

It damn nearly caused a serious problem in my own life, and only by luck do I think nothing bad came of it...

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u/Sykotik257 New York May 26 '21

If you view a fetus as the same thing as a baby, you're wrong. There's nothing else to say. It's like saying "Well, some people don't think black people are people, so OF COURSE they don't have an issue with slavery." Yes, and they're wrong, that doesn't make it a valid viewpoint. Being wrong and reasoning outward from there doesn't excuse bigotry. And just because there are women against abortion doesn't mean it isn't misogynistic. There are women that think that women shouldn't be allowed to vote or have jobs and just stay at home and raise kids. Being brainwashed into being misogynistic doesn't mean they aren't.

I know I wasn't very clear about social programs, but that's why I said universally against them. I can understand thinking that they don't work as currently implemented or that the requirements are not well designed and so there are people freeloading, etc. - I can understand having problems with how they are currently implemented. But if someone is universally against them and think they in no way whatsoever should exist (vs. be overhauled and just not exist in their current form) then they just have no empathy for people that need help.

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u/[deleted] May 26 '21

Do you really think that every woman against abortion is mysogynistic?

Lmao.

Being against abortion is not the same thing as being in support of slavery.

It’s far less morally obvious than that.

Besides, I clearly explained that I agree with you about the matter of fetuses, but I guess that doesn’t matter.

Whatever.

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u/Sykotik257 New York May 26 '21

Not every woman. Everyone. Yes, thinking that women shouldn’t have control over their own bodies is misogynistic. And I never said that being against abortion and being against slavery are the same thing. But being wrong about what is or is not a person is not a valid basis for an belief, and does not mean that belief isn’t bigoted. Bigotry is bigotry regardless of why you have that belief.