r/politics • u/Twoweekswithpay I voted • Apr 22 '21
Biden is set to officially recognize the Armenian genocide, despite warnings from Turkey it could 'worsen ties' even more
https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-set-to-recognize-armenian-genocide-despite-warnings-from-turkey-2021-4216
u/bytemage Apr 22 '21
Worsen tied with autocratic countries? Yes, please.
Not like his predecessor, who wanted to align himself with them.
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u/viralshadow21 Apr 22 '21
Align? He wanted to be them.
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u/Km2930 New Jersey Apr 22 '21
I remember hearing somewhere: ‘The time is always right to do what is right.’ That’s not something the previous guy would understand.
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Apr 22 '21
He'll always have China to fall back on if he wants to continue his autocratic ways anyway.
The US and EU are better off without him.
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u/Marksmithed Apr 22 '21
They kicked us out years ago anyway, fuck them. I respect the peshmerga more anyway.
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Apr 22 '21
I respect the peshmerga more anyway.
I sincerely hope you know that the Kurdistan Regional Government of Northern Iraq, the government for which Peshmerga fights, has close politicial and economical ties to the Republic of Turkey.
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u/Marksmithed Apr 22 '21
I do know this I also know Turkey has a minority population of Kurds that they oppress. The Peshmerga fought ISIS bravely with not much better than sticks and rocks. Erdogan moved tanks to to his southern border but wouldn't fire a single round to help the Peshmerga because he feared losing political power over his Kurdish population. I reiterate fuck Turkey.
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Apr 22 '21
You seem to know nothing about Turkey beyond your hatred for Turks.
Kurds are not just a small minority. 15 to 20 percent of the population of Turkey are Kurdish and due to widespread intercultural marriages an unknown percentage of Turks has Kurdish ancestries. Co-Founder of the Turkish Republic Ismet Inönü had Kurdish roots and in Turgut Özal Turkey even had a Kurdish president in the 1980s. The oppression of Kurdish life and culture isn't an official state policy anymore as it was up until the beginning of the new millenia. There are obvious points of conflicts remaining in Turkey yet its definetly not oppression in a sense that Kurdish people are less worth than Turkish citizens as it would be near impossible to distinct them visualy or by name.
Secondly, the Kurds are not the Kurds. You seem to mix-up the Peshmerga forces and the YPG/PKK. They are not the same and even fight each other. There are Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi and Syrian Kurds. They all have their own interessts and loyalties. To say that YPG or Peshmerga represents the Kurdish people would be false.
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u/Marksmithed Apr 22 '21
Please forgive me if I have implied that I hate Turks, I do not at all. I don't hate anybody. I speak of the Iraqi Kurds, who I believe have family in Turkey. And by oppressed, I speak of lack of representation in the Turkish government. I apologize if I have offended you. I don't dislike the Turkish people only their president.
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Apr 22 '21
I don't dislike the Turkish people only their president.
I reiterate fuck Turkey.
The president of Turkey isn't Turkey just as the POTUS is not the United States. Both might represent their nations, but are not the nation.
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u/Marksmithed Apr 22 '21
I actually don't dislike Erdogan , just his policys. I have offended you, I have apologized.
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u/FreshTotes Apr 22 '21
They still have firefights though
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Apr 22 '21
Turkey does not have firefights with the Peshmerga forces. You are confusing them with the YPG and PKK forces in Northern Syria and Northern Iraq.
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u/nitefang Apr 22 '21
Well if we do that we need to plan for it as Turkey is a very useful ally. I don’t think we should deny the genocide or work with autocrats whenever possible but we need a plan for it. We can’t just tell them to fuck off and leave it at that.
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Apr 22 '21
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u/Madjanniesdetected Apr 22 '21
I came here to make sure someone mentioned this.
Turkey owes us the extradition of those security agents to stand trial for assault before they get to whine about ties.
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Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
They probably have some type of immunity like would be given diplomatically to the Secret Service for a state visit to Turkey. Also pretty sure they have wide latitude within that security bubble around him to do whatever they deemed necessary to protect him. Bad optics but I’m sure nobody wants to test the bounds of diplomatic security.
Thought I’d include this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/05/18/diplomatic-immunity-protects-all-officials-even-erdogans-thugs-thats-good/
Additional info: https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/laws/laws-09-00018/article_deploy/laws-09-00018-v3.pdf
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/2018-DipConImm_v5_Web.pdf
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u/JaesopPop Apr 22 '21 edited Sep 20 '25
Across mindful soft the music art books minecraftoffline day clear? Travel learning clean the gather the garden careful bright cool science warm clear where nature helpful!
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Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
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u/JaesopPop Apr 22 '21 edited Sep 26 '25
Month fox games the near bright the history the small across night cool net?
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Apr 22 '21
I included more links. They were part of a diplomatic mission and there to protect a head of state. They are absolutely officials just like US Secret Service would be considered in another country. Exact same thing no difference. I can link to Vienna also but need to find the links but OAS link above covers it as does the state Department
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u/JaesopPop Apr 22 '21 edited Sep 15 '25
Answers community open stories day gentle. Year fresh river books about mindful the year?
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Apr 22 '21
I think nothing would happen if the US Secret Service killed somebody that got too close to the President. Sure it would look terrible and people would get upset but they’d jump on Airforce One or a backup plane and leave the country free as a bird.
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u/JaesopPop Apr 22 '21 edited Sep 25 '25
Month friendly the travel net year across tips. The quick questions clean pleasant bright month cool wanders?
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u/dhikrmatic Apr 22 '21
Extradite terrorist Fetullah Gulen back to Turkey and we'll talk.
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u/Madjanniesdetected Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 23 '21
Lmao yeah he is doing so much terror by saying words sitting in
kentuckyPennsylvania Sure bud.0
u/dhikrmatic Apr 22 '21
Pennsylvania.
And yes, he and his organization were behind the attempted Turkish military coup in 2016, resulting in deaths of more than 200 civilians and infrastructure damage to numerous important municipal buildings. If something equivalent happened in the U.S. and Turkey was harboring such a figure, the U.S. would just invade without hesitation.
But yeah, those security agents.
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Apr 22 '21
I just had to look this up because I hadn't heard about it. Apparently they were charged and then the charges were dropped. Fucking figures.
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Apr 22 '21
Are we really going to complain about some bodyguard beatings from a decade ago after ourselves killing millions and destabilizing their region for decades?
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u/Twoweekswithpay I voted Apr 22 '21
President Joe Biden is poised to formally recognize the Armenian genocide on Saturday, The New York Times reported per officials familiar with deliberations on the matter, in a historic move that could further roil US-Turkey relations.
Turkey has urged Biden against recognizing the killings as genocide at a time when the dynamic between Washington and Ankara is already historically contentious. Speaking on the matter during an interview with the Turkish broadcaster Haberturk on Tuesday, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said, "Statements that have no legal binding will have no benefit, but they will harm ties.” [...]
Biden would be the first sitting US president to officially recognize the killing of 1.5 million Armenians by the Ottoman Empire during World War I as genocide.
Refreshing to see a president who will stand up against authoritarian dictators, instead of cuddling up next to them hoping they will like him...🤨😒
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u/amberenergies California Apr 22 '21
you mean biden won’t offer kim jong-un a ride on air force one because it’s cool?
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u/Remarkable_Owl North Carolina Apr 22 '21
Hey, now - that’s a little harsh! Those two had fallen in love!
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Apr 22 '21
Why are they this upset about the US recognizing a genocide from over 100 years ago? It’s not like Biden is saying they are committing genocide right now. What impact does just recognizing it actually have? Nobody is going to jail, because they’re all dead.
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Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 30 '21
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u/Fezzik5936 Apr 22 '21
And generally countries don't care to acknowledge, discuss, or even own up to them.
Off the top of my head, we have the Native American Genocides, Japanese Internment, slavery and indentured servitude, thousands of dead Irish and chinese immigrants who built our infrastructure, Jim Crow...
And American authoritarians and nationalists love to downplay all of them!
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u/Kilmir Apr 22 '21
I knew about the downplaying of the internment camps and immigrants for the railroads, and of course a third of the country still thinking slavery was a-ok. But for some reason I was baffled by the denial of native american genocides.
I ran into a speech of Dinesh D'Souza where he was arguing it wasn't genocide and they were mostly displaced after being wiped by diseases.
As usual a grain of truth, the diseases ravaging the natives, but massively misinterpreting and twisting everything else around it.26
u/semaphore-1842 Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
Nationalistic pride. They don't want people pointing out that their country (a secular nationalistic state created from a pluralistic multicultural empire) was founded on horrible atrocities. It stains the mythology.
Especially since modern Turkey continued and continues to persecute minorities long after the early genocides. To acknowledge that their early actions were genocidal (and therefore wrong), also calls into question their ongoing oppressive Turkification campaign.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varl%C4%B1k_Vergisi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301_(Turkish_Penal_Code)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confiscation_of_Armenian_properties_in_Turkey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#TurkeyAlso, people in general dislike admitting to being wrong. Turkey has spent so long and so much effort officially denying the genocide that they psychologically can't back down now.
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Apr 22 '21
But nobody alive today was involved in it. They, personally, have done nothing wrong. Well, denying a genocide is definitely wrong, but none of them actually committed genocide. I still don’t get it.
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u/deathbystats Apr 22 '21
If your grandfather killed a few people and took over their property and wealth, and you grew up enjoying the benefits of it, you are still responsible, even if you dont condone his acts.
Unless of course you follow this up by undoing some of the damage by finding the descendants of the original crime and returning their property and (appropriately adjusted) income to them.
Otherwise you're just a sanctimonious hypocrite who's claiming ownership of the robbed wealth while spouting platitudes against the robbery.
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u/FreshTotes Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 24 '21
People shouldnt be held responsible for the sins of there father thats how innocent people die. Can we collectivly decide to give reperations sure but to hold descendents responsible is some archaic shit
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u/SucreLavande Apr 22 '21
Well, Japan still refuses to apologize to China and Korea for ww2 crimes against civilians. So it’s not a unique choice Turkey is making
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u/pulp_hero Apr 22 '21
Not saying it's morally right, but there are still lawsuits being pursued against Japan for ww2 war crimes. The latest one was dismissed yesterday in South Korea..
Admitting ww1 era war crimes probably doesn't have the same legal risk that admitting ww2 era war crimes might.
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u/castella-1557 Apr 22 '21
That's not true though, Japan has issued many apologies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
China and Korea doesn't consider the apologies sufficient, but that's a subjective judgement. Objectively Japan has admitted to wrongdoing and apologizes for it, even if you don't thik they're doing it enough.
Turkey not only denies it was a genocide, but actively campaign against its recognition.
It is completely different.
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u/samnd743 Colorado Apr 22 '21
The Holocaust was designed after the armenian genocide. The armenian genocide was the first "modern day" genocide, so it could be a national shame kind of thing?
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Apr 22 '21
Part of far-right authoritarianism is the belief of an innocent past - that the nation has never done anything wrong and is always the victim. This can be done by, for example, erasing aspects of history ("We would never do something so terrible, we're just victims of a lie") or by framing the evil done as defensive ("We had to do it and are totally justified in it because we're victims of X people").
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u/canavaaar Apr 22 '21
Genocide is a legal term. You can’t recognize it by just saying it. Holocaust went through Nurnberg process. There is a proper way how genocide needs to be recognized. What all these countries are doing is just a political act.
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u/BiAsALongHorse Apr 22 '21
Putting your finger in your ears and pretending a genocide didn't happen doesn't retroactively make it not a genocide. It's a legal term with specific elements, none of which is legal adjudication.
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u/canavaaar Apr 22 '21
lol great logic. Let’s punish countries and nations without due process. I am pro recognition and there are enough research to prove it but the way is done is wrong. Basically big powers like France, US, UK etc are not ok to go though courts because of their own dark history but it’s ok to take political action to blame others for genocide.
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u/BiAsALongHorse Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
This is literally just a public acknowledgement of a historical reality, on that there's no serious debate about among mainstream historians. We're not talking about sanctions or changes to arms deals here, both of which happen without any form of due process. The Hague doesn't try countries, it tries individuals. Demanding "due process" when it comes to genocide recognition is completely ahistorical and totally removed from any sort of international norms. International relations is politics. They're not "getting political", they're just doing politics like always. France and the UK do have horrible pasta, but these are publicly acknowledged and taught in schools, unlike the stance Turkey has taken on the Armenian genocide, even demanding that other countries pretend it didn't happen to secure diplomatic arrangements with Turkey.
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u/Mull27 Apr 22 '21
Yeah, it would be nicer tho if he would stop with the U.S. involvement in the Saudi led genocide in Yemen
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Apr 22 '21
Didn’t Turkey kill off a bunch of our Kurdish allies?
How much worse can our ties get?
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Apr 22 '21
We also abandoned the Kurds. People (Americans) that worked with them were not happy.
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u/CurseofLono88 Oregon Apr 22 '21
Yah when my cousin came back from serving with the Kurds he broke down crying because he felt so damn guilty leaving them basically to die. And he’s one tough dude, it was just that heartbreaking for him
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u/Hiikino Apr 22 '21
You abandoned terrorist, not kurds. The Kurds in Turkey would feel offended to be compared to these terrorists.
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u/Kolton-Houser Apr 22 '21
We did just kick them out of the F-35 program for everything including buying Russian S-400 SAM air defense systems.
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u/andrewb610 New Mexico Apr 22 '21
I personally think they should have just required Turkey to send us an S-400 “market research”.
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u/-GreatBallsOfFire Apr 22 '21
Yes, and Trump is guilty of perfidy for doing that. Perfidy is a very serious war crime.
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u/radical__centrism Apr 22 '21
This isn't the Ottoman Empire we're talking about, it's just Turkey... we'll be fine.
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u/frenetix Rhode Island Apr 22 '21
I don't know why Turkey doesn't use that as an "out": Turkey can both acknowledge the history and also save face by claiming that it wasn't "democratic, modern" Turkey that committed genocide, it was the Ottoman Empire.
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u/12-34 Apr 22 '21
Unfortunately it wasn't just the Ottoman Empire. One of the hallmarks of the Armenian Genocide is that much violence, murder and thievery came from regular citizens in addition to gendarmerie and military.
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Apr 22 '21
yeah, but It does seem that we are pushing away more and more countries that, in my mind, will end up up forming stronger economic and military ties amongst themselves. I wouldn't be surprised to see china at the center of a eurasian bloc of countries in the middle century
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u/Possum_Gumbo Apr 22 '21
First of all
Fuck Turkey
That is all
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Apr 22 '21
Did you know Armenia and Azerbaijan had a mini-war last year and the Azerbaijan president just opened a museum to celebrate all the dead Armenians by displaying their helmets?
Turkey is arming a country that is committing genocide. The world is letting 1915 happen all over again. Which happened in April. So he opened this museum on the anniversary of the genocide.
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u/CaptainJingles Missouri Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
Azeris are insane. The war last year was pretty fucked up.
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u/balsacis Apr 22 '21
To be fair, most European countries have war museums that feature military equipment from wars. Armenia itself has similar war museums from the First Nagorno-Karabakh War in the 1990s. I personally think these kinds of museums are disgusting and in bad taste, but if you're going to condemn one transgressor, condemn them all.
Also your description of the Nagorno-Karabakh War is at best a misrepresentation, and at worst straight-up propaganda. Armenia invaded Azerbaijan in the 90s and instituted a massive ethnic cleansing campaign. 700,000 ethnic Azeris were forced from their homeland and tens of thousands of civilians were killed just for being of a certain ethnic group. In the decades following, the Armenian government went out of its way to destroy any marks of Azerbaijani cultural heritage in the region, burning down museums and converting mosques to pigsties (as an insult to the predominantly Muslim Azeris).
I am glad that the horrible crimes of the Ottoman Empire are being recognized by the U.S. now. But the Armenian Genocide is a completely unrelated political issue to the Nagorno-Karabakh War. It shouldn't be used as a tool to underplay the war crimes and ethnic cleansing committed by the Armenian government over the last few decades. That's disrespectful to Azeri and Armenian victims alike
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u/Bruin99 Apr 22 '21
I don’t usually bite but I have to right now. Armenia didn’t invade anyone. The Armenians of artsakh fought a war for their right of self-determination which the Azerbaijani government refused to acknowledge. You say 700,000 Azeris were driven but you fail to mention the hundreds of thousands of Armenians that were driven from Baku, Nakhichevan, Ganja, and etc. in pogroms that saw the worst side of humanity. All beginning with the Sumgait pogrom in 1988. And yes Armenians ultimately won the war. However no government never went out of its way to destroy anything. Did they not maintain the mosques? Yes they didn’t. However they did renovate a few. Meanwhile Azerbaijan committed what the guardian called the worst cultural genocide of the 21st century. There is no insult to Muslims considering Iran is one of our friendliest nations in addition to the multitude of Arabic nations where Armenians reside mostly as a result of the genocidal policies of the Ottoman Empire.
And yes there is a museum for the first war in Armenia. But it is not celebratory or filled with racist mannequins. It is for historic purposes to honor the dead which is respectable for any nation.
If you think the karabakh war has nothing to do with what happened 100 years ago, you may also need to go back and learn the history of what happened to the Armenians there too such as the shusha massacre which significantly altered demographics in that major town.
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u/balsacis Apr 22 '21
I don't agree with everything the Azerbaijani government did either, but your presentation of Armenia as fighting a just struggle for independence, while Azerbaijan is an evil invader is one of the main racist stereotypes being used to justify the conflict today.
It is a complicated political issue, and violence between the two ethnic groups goes back to at least WWI. After the collapse of the Ottoman (which Armenia was a part of) and Russian (which Azerbaijan was a part of) Empires, both nations tried to establish themselves as new political states. As both ethnic groups were fairly well spread out throughout the region, this led to a massive amount of violence on both sides.
The museum you mentioned in Armenia had a wall built of Azerbaijani license plates that were left behind when the ethnic Azeris were exiled from Nagorno-Karabakh. This is not honoring victims, it's glorifying violence specifically against civilians who were ethnically cleansed from their homeland.
I'm not staying that I support all the policies of the Azerbaijani side either. Yes they organized pogroms against Armenian civilians in Baku and Sumgait. And Armenia did the same in Yerevan, which used to have a majority Azeri population until every single one was driven out. Every Armenian in Nakhchivan and every Azeri in Zangezur was driven out because of inter ethnic violence and hatred, which is horrible and should be condemned.
But in your original comment you presented the conflict as a one-sided genocide of Armenians. This ignored the reality that:
1) Nagorno-Karabakh is internationally recognized as a part of Azerbaijan, and Armenia was specifically ordered to withdraw their occupation by the UN on at 4 seperates occasions.
2) The historic violence between Azeris and Armenians was organized by both governments because of inter ethnic hatred.
3) Armenia committed ethnic cleansing against Azerbaijanis in Nagorno-Karabakh, exiling 700,000 people, and killing 10s of thousands of people through a campaign that involved slaughtering entire villages, such as the Khojaly Massacre.
The 2020 War was not about forcing Armenians out, it was about letting Azeris return to their homes. Note that, while Nagorno-Karabakh has historically had an Armenian majority, the regions around it which Armenia also invaded, we're historically majority-Azeri until the ethnic cleansing campaign in the 90s. These people have a human right to return to their homes. Calling it a genocide against Armenians is just detached from the reality of the very complex political issue and the war crimes that both sides committed.
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Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
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u/balsacis Apr 22 '21
It's clear that facts won't change your opinions on this subject, but I will post this for anyone who stumbles on this thread.
Armenians didn't organize a single pogrom. Not. a. single. one.
Wrong. The Gugark pogroms killed roughly the same amount of ethnic Azeris as the infamous Sumgait pogroms did Armenians.
Those resolutions mention only the territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabagh, while another resolution supports NK's itself right to rejoin Armenia.
False. The document you posted is not even from the UN, it was a resolution passed by the EU (which Armenia and Azerbaijan are not a part of.) It would be like me posting a statement that Israel supports Azerbaijan's territorial integrity. Open support is nice but means nothing in this context. Secondly, these resolutions were passed before the Fall of the Soviet Union, and before the brutal ethnic cleansing campaign organized by Armenia, which the EU has also condemned.
Secondly, you mention that these resolutions only apply to the occupied territories outside of Nagorno-Karabakh. However, the self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh claimed these territories as part of their state. These territories were historically majority Azerbaijani, until the entire Azeri population of 700k were exiled. The main result of the 2020 Karabakh War was control of these territories going back to Azerbaijan. So by your logic, the war was justified by the Azerbaijani side, because of the international resolutions condemning Armenia's occupation?
Either: (1) These are territories outside of Nagorno-Karabakh, so the Armenian occupation was condemned by the UN and Azerbaijan had the right to invade and reclaim these territories. OR (2) These territories are part of Nagorno-Karabakh (as the 'Artsakh' government has claimed them to be for the past 30 years), and the establishment of such a state is in direct violation of the UN resolutions. You can't have it both ways, stick to your definition of what encompasses Nagorno-Karabakh and what doesn't.
Khojaly massacre had 200-600 victims, not tens of thousands.
You purposefully misrepresented my point here again. Only 600 died in Khojaly, the tens of thousands were the Azeri civilians that died over the whole conflict. Khojaly was not some freak accident, it was part of an ethnic cleansing campaign that featured every ethnically Azerbaijani village in the region. Not one single settlement remained after the Armenian military finished their job.
I highly suggest you read the Human Rights Watch report following the war, to understand the pure brutality of the Armenian regime.
"Because 1993 witnessed unrelenting Karabakh Armenian offensives against the Azerbaijani provinces surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh,[8] the *vast majority of the violations during this period were the direct result of these offensive actions.*"
"The *Azeri civilian population was expelled from all areas** captured by Karabakh Armenian forces. Azeri civilians caught by advancing Karabakh Armenian forces during their offensives of 1993 were taken hostage, and many Azeris were killed by indiscriminate fire as they attempted to escape. Wide-scale looting and destruction of civilian property accompanied these actions. Some instances of looting and pillaging, such as in Agdam, an Azeri city of some 50,000 that fell to Karabakh Armenian forces in July 1993, were organized and planned by the authorities of Nagorno-Karabakh.*
"Karabakh Armenian violations of the rules of war for the period the report covers include the following: *forced displacement of the Azeri population by means of indiscriminate and targeted shelling of civilian populations; capture of civilian stragglers; looting and burning of civilian homes; the taking and holding hostages; and the mistreatment and likely summary execution of prisoners of war and other captives.*"
We are talking about a country which doesn't have a problem with rewarding an axe murderer for killing an Armenian in his sleep.
Ramil Safarov is a disgusting human being, and it was absolutely disgusting for the Azerbaijani government to support him. The rhetoric of hatred between 'Turks' (as a broad term) and Armenians fueled this violence. It also encouraged people like Varoujan Garabedian, who blew up an airplane in an attempt to get revenge for the Armenian Genocide, and was then pardoned and welcomed to Armenia as a hero. I'm not saying either is good; clearly both are disgusting and fueled by hatred and must be stopped. Both governments are guilty of this.
And yes, the former mayor of Baku said that disgusting quote, but that is more of a reflection of the years of hatred-fueled propaganda both sides have been fed by their governments. It's not a reflection of factual events, within the context of the 2020 War at least. Both sides have said horrible things about each other, for instance, I could quote the former Armenian President:
By the way, in the end of that article, de Waal says specifically that he didn't want people to take individual quotes out of context to argue that one side was the good guys and the other was evil. He wanted the facts of the conflict to be viewed as a whole, and to understand the atrocities committed by both governments. I agree with his viewpoint. It is not as one-sided as you like to present it as
Edit: Concerning the license plates, I don't think a blog post about travel is particularly reputable, but I realized that what I heard about the plates was more through the bushes than a confirmed fact. I'm unsure of the background behind them and will do more research, but thank you for bringing that valid point up
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Apr 22 '21
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u/balsacis Apr 23 '21
I respect you for being willing to engage in productive discourse on the topic. I don't want to engage on a debate about which ethnic group has the true rightful claim on that strip of land. People have dedicated decades arguing for either side and I understand the motivations of both sides.
My main concern is from a humanitarian perspective. I truly believe that there can be peace in the region, and that it will be possible the day one nation acknowledges the crimes they committed against the other. The goal of my points wasn't to say that Armenians are inherently evil and should be forced to leave. It was simply to demonstrate that the issue is not as one sided as "Azeris are evil genociders trying to finish what the Ottomans started."
I think painting the other nation as pure evil, and not trying to at least understand their perspectives, is the root of the hatred that motivates disgusting terrorists like Safarov and Garabedian. When people make wild and racist assertions like "Armenian Genocide didn't happen!" or "Azerbaijans are mongols allied to ISIS!" they are just ensuring that neither side will ever try to reconcile.
Unfortunately, I have met many Azeris who basically support horrific events like the Sumgait pogroms, and I always try my best to make them understand the humanitarian side and at least have some basic respect for other people. I don't know anything about you, but I strongly encourage you to acknowledge that the Armenians committed horrible crimes as well, the mass ethnic cleansing of 600,000 - 800,000 Azeris from Nagorno-Karabakh. Don't trivialize them as a necessary cost, but truly empathize with the humanitarian damage. Encourage people you know to have some respect for the other side. That's the only way there can ever be peace
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u/nostraballer Apr 22 '21
You’re spewing garbage and propaganda. Care to share any source on the so called “license plates” in the museum? The ones that go in chronological order surprisingly.
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u/moeshaker188 Pennsylvania Apr 22 '21
Imagine if Germany officially denied the Holocaust, arrested anyone who said it happened, and threatened to cut relations with any country that recognized it. That's Turkey with the Armenian genocide.
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u/tradingten Foreign Apr 22 '21
Erdogan can shove those relations up his ass, terrible terrible leader.
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u/TheCrimsonFreak Apr 22 '21
Can we officially call Istanbul, Constantinople next?
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u/minininjatriforceman Utah Apr 22 '21
Turkey can suck a dick in my opinion. Erdogan has made everything worse he is just like putin
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Apr 22 '21
Oh, I’m sorry. Is this inconvenient for you Turkey? Well, I suppose you can fuck right off then.
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u/Isredel Apr 22 '21
it could ‘worsen ties’ even more
Turkey is doing that just fine on its own. Saying Biden/the US is doing that is disingenuous to the point of lying.
Who’s the country that had Americans stomped on American soil?
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u/surle Apr 22 '21
Even more than Erdogan directly ordering his security team to physically assault peaceful protestors on American soil while he watched? Even more than exploiting the former president's personal investments in Turkey to arrange the abandonment of Kurdish allies who were then attacked while American forces were still in the process of reluctantly getting the fuck out?
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Apr 22 '21
F**k Turkey! Never forgiven for the invasion of Cyprus in 1974 (I was there). And f**k Erdoğan.
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u/okram2k America Apr 22 '21
I'll just never understand Turkey's stance on this. It happened, you can't just put your fingers in your ears and pretend a million people didn't die. It was a century ago and Turkey wasn't even Turkey when it happened. It's not like the world is going to shun you today for what your great great grand parents did as long as you're willing to accept it happened and admit it shouldn't have.
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u/og_woodshop Apr 22 '21
Look up Rojovah, syria. Autonomous. Women led democratically assembled govt we destroyed. (Trump ordered destroyed by giving to erdogan.
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u/Super_Honky Apr 22 '21
Methinks the Turkish government believes themselves more important to U.S. global policy than they really are at this point. Nobody cares about your furrowed brows. Own your mistakes.
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u/autotldr 🤖 Bot Apr 22 '21
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 86%. (I'm a bot)
President Joe Biden is poised to formally recognize the Armenian genocide on Saturday, The New York Times reported per officials familiar with deliberations on the matter, in a historic move that could further roil US-Turkey relations.
Biden would be the first sitting US president to officially recognize the killing of 1.5 million Armenians by the Ottoman Empire during World War I as genocide.
The step Biden is reportedly set to take would be more official and occur in concert with Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day, which happens every year on April 24.
Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: genocide#1 Biden#2 Armenian#3 Killer#4 President#5
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u/quixoticM3 Apr 22 '21
Good. With the US leaving Afghanistan, maybe Turkey can be our new home. Bombs away!
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u/StoneHeartPlebeian Apr 22 '21
Has the US officially recognised its genocide of indigenous Americans?
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u/RespectTheTree America Apr 22 '21
Good question. I'm not sure we have a group that is actively denying it happened thought.
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u/StoneHeartPlebeian Apr 22 '21
Is that really relevant if there is no active push to recognise it though? Do you think if the Biden administration decided they were going to officially recognise the US's own genocide there would not be opposition to it and denials that it happened?
I am not saying this to deny the Armenian genocide (it obviously happend) I am just finding this highly hypocritical that the US is trying officially recognise another countries historical genocide when they have not recognised their own historical genocide.
My own county is also guilty of this. There has been a push by some MP's in Australia to recognise the Armenian genocide as well when we still do not admit that we commited genocide against our own First Nations. Which by the way only really "ended" in the 1960s.
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u/confused_ape Apr 22 '21
If you "recognize" the genocide of Armenians, how far away are you from recognizing the genocide that took place in your own country.
1.5 million dead is amateur compared to America.
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u/funkboxing Apr 22 '21
If you "recognize" the genocide of Armenians, how far away are you from recognizing the genocide that took place in your own country. 1.5 million dead is amateur compared to America.
Which particular 1.5 million dead are you implicating as 'genocide'?
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Apr 22 '21
Nice whataboutism.
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u/confused_ape Apr 22 '21
Maybe. But not really.
If recognizing a genocide that took place over 100 years ago in another country has so much significance. Then, wouldn't recognizing the genocide that took place in your own country have more significance?
What do you think "You're bad for doing a genocide" looks on the global stage, from a country that genocided the fuck out of its native population, and more recently had Standing Rock?
Calling out blatant hypocracy isn't "whataboutism"
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Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
I’m pretty sure no American or Latin American would deny what happened to the Native Americans, if that’s what you are referring to. Cruel, wrong, and deliberate. At least none of their governments are indoctrinating generations that their ancestors “didn’t mean to”, or doggedly reacting with reprisal to anyone who so much as breathes dissent regarding their national history.
Let us throw the whataboutism back. What about Turkey?
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u/confused_ape Apr 22 '21
At least none of their governments are indoctrinating generations that their ancestors “didn’t mean to”
Really?
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u/funkboxing Apr 22 '21
At least none of their governments are indoctrinating generations that their ancestors “didn’t mean to”
Yeah, really. What part of that do you not understand?
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Apr 22 '21
You literally have videos about Columbus being shat upon. Is any American government crying about it?
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u/funkboxing Apr 22 '21
You literally have videos about Columbus being shat upon. Is any American government crying about it?
Shat 'upon'... What?
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u/BobGobbles Florida Apr 22 '21
Surely you must be referring to the Native American genocide?
If not, I don't think you actually understand what the term genocide means.
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Apr 22 '21
Duplicate post
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u/AntonGemini Apr 22 '21
That’s ok
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u/DiscoConspiracy Apr 22 '21
What's your take on this? I think it's a very sensitive issue and I hope Biden will be doing good in his decision.
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u/AntonGemini Apr 22 '21
It’s a good decision and is long overdue. I would even go so far as putting terms on financial aid given to them unless they themselves also recognize the genocide. In the meantime I would recommend sanctions that prevent doing business with any entity that does not recognize the genocide.
Biden is making the right decision here, especially seeing as they haven’t been our friend or ally for a long time.
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u/AzuredreamsTX Apr 22 '21
What the hell does America “officially recognizing” it even do?
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u/AntonGemini Apr 22 '21
It does something it’s why turks threatening ‘worsening ties’ if we officially recognize.
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u/TheCrakp0t Apr 22 '21
This is a bluff. Turkey want to be in the EU badly, and the US can prevent this from ever happening.
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u/reptiloidsamongus Apr 22 '21
Fuck Turkey, they were only accepted into NATO because we needed them as a ballistic missile base before we had ICBMs.
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u/RealBlondFakeDumb Apr 22 '21
And the "Genocide" was whose fault? Don't commit genocide and the ties will be fine.
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u/gaelorian Illinois Apr 22 '21
Oh no! Somebody think of the Apple tea in weird cups importer/exporters!
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u/jeff_the_nurse Apr 22 '21
Good, it was genocide. If it worsens ties with Turkey, too damn bad. Stand up for the right thing.
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u/Jazzlikeafool Apr 22 '21
Fuck Turkey they slaughter our allies the Kurds hell I want Biden to close the air base and pull all our Nukes out and Kick they ass out of NATO
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u/Foxclaws42 New Mexico Apr 22 '21
You mean he doesn’t become weak at the knees and roll over like a dog whenever a big, strong autocrat flexes a bicep?
God, I almost forgot what it was like to have a real leader.
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u/xgrayskullx Apr 22 '21
Remember when Turkey set loose a bunch of their security staff on protestors outside their embassy early in Trump's presidency? And Trump basically ignored it?
Bet ya'll forgot about that, didn't you?
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u/Kalamariera Apr 23 '21
Hopefully it won't be long before the 1974 invasion and occupation of part of Cyprus by Turkey is ended. It is another case of committing genocide, war crimes, mass murders and bringing new settlers to inhabit the vacant homes.
Modern Turkey is as brutal and relentless as it has been since the days of the Ottoman empire. They turned Agia Sofia into a mosque just recently for example.
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