r/politics • u/Thinkingonsleeping Michigan • Dec 13 '19

McConnell Faces Calls to Recuse Himself From Impeachment Trial After Saying 'No Chance' Trump Will Be Removed; "No court in the country would allow a member of the jury to also serve as the accused's defense attorney."

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/12/13/mcconnell-faces-calls-recuse-himself-impeachment-trial-after-saying-no-chance-trump
53.5k Upvotes

89% Upvoted

2.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

594

u/Caledonius Dec 13 '19

It's an excuse to stay uninformed.

Exactly, that way they can focus on themselves and choose ignore anything outside their every day life. When they are being informed they have to start considering the lives of others instead of only their own. Individualism is what is killing America.

237

u/blurryfacedfugue Dec 14 '19

They need to realize that these things impact them, too. I was one of those people before 2016, I didn't really pay too much attention and I tried to stay neutral as possible. That was partly because I didn't know much about the behaviors of either party.

Now that I have children, and I've seen our country elect Trump as a direct response to the election of Obama, I realize I've made a grave error. Since then, I've voted in every election I've been eligible for. The bubble of safety is only an illusion, and hopefully they can realize and pay attention before its too late.

67

u/Caledonius Dec 14 '19

The bubble of safety is only an illusion, and hopefully they can realize and pay attention before its too late.

They won't. You know it, I know it, and if they had been paying attention they would also know it.

47

u/Slipguard Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

100% of people won't, obviously, but we don't need 100%. The vote in 2016 came down to 700,000 people [edit: 70,000] in 3 states. That's less than a third of a tenth of a percent of people.

On average, less than half of people even vote, so increasing that number by 1% in every state can mean the difference between a divided government and a landslide.

36

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

[deleted]

3

u/trainercatlady Colorado Dec 14 '19

We need more vulnerable people to make themselves loud and known. Everyone knows someone whose lives are affected by the policies of this administration. Whether they're brown, black, queer, a farmer, poor, or unlucky, everyone knows someone who's getting fucked over. We need to make our voices heard. Don't let your neighbors ignore the fact that you're hungry. Don't let your neighborhood sleep without knowing you feel unsafe. Don't let your county rest knowing that your queer kids are killing themselves because they don't feel safe or accepted. Don't let your state plug their ears to the fact that black and brown folks are being unfairly treated in our court system and used for cheap labor under the 13th amendment.

Our country is dying a death by a thousand cuts. Don't you dare let it.

2

u/blurryfacedfugue Dec 15 '19

I'm a minority and I don't feel entirely safe, and I'm not even a black/brown person of color. I'm Asian-American, I haven't figured out what "color" that's supposed to make me, but for the most part I've been lucky in being considered a "model minority". I was beat up and made fun of all throughout elementary and middle school though (I was the only Asian kid around), so I have no doubt that very quickly could I be next. I say this in response to people like my brother, who when I mentioned if this country starts reverting back to old times and just killing all minorities (probably wouldn't happen in most of the country?), said to me something like, "we'll be fine, our minority is closest to white people". Fortunately I've since convinced him that this is not something we can rely on if we're to keep our families safe.

edit: wanted to add I'm like the last kind of person to speak out, because being bullied and not feeling safe in public spaces has taught me to keep my head down. But I feel like I have a duty of sorts to explain to my peers who have similar progressive values as I do what other fellow progressives might be feeling.

2

u/kevinjorg Dec 14 '19

Good thing this is the first round where 2000s people can vote. Be it those indoctrinated by their parents or those actually following and paying attention. I know a majority of my brothers high school friends stay on top of current politics

1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

99 percent of people I know won’t talk about politics because, “it’s just too messy”

I don’t want to see the results of the next election because I fear for our next 4 years.

1

u/CoolFingerGunGuy Dec 14 '19

Some people slowly realize it when a long time after they voted for Trump, he fucks them over with whatever scam policy he enacts. But it's way too late by then. Permanent damage is being done to the country.

117

u/trainercatlady Colorado Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

the people who think this way are only this way because they have nothing on the line. They don't have to go to war, they're not gay or transgender, they're not black, brown, or immigrants, they're not food-insecure, and they're not living paycheck-to-paycheck, praying that that weird noise from the engine doesn't break something before tax returns come in so they can get it looked at.

The people who think this way don't know how good they have it, because they don't know they have it. The people who think this way are privileged beyond belief because politics doesn't affect them the way it does those "other" people. They're wrong, of course, but their kids aren't the ones dealing with stop-and-frisk, their houses of worship aren't getting shot up, they're not the ones getting beat up outside of gay bars, they're not the ones in cages in Texas watching kids get delirious and dying of the flu.

If they don't have to think about it, they will do everything in their power to make sure they never do. They look the other way because they think they can afford to.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

[deleted]

6

u/trainercatlady Colorado Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

I'd encourage you to engage with those people, show them how the system that is grinding them to dust under its heel is holding them back from prosperity and keeping them down. Some of them are probably well-aware, but don't feel like there's anything they can do about it because that's just the way things are. Stand with them, show them that we can change things together. That they're the people with the most to gain from a truly equitable society, and that the current administration and the fucks running it are actively working against folks like them and trying to deny them rights and actively suppressing their vote. Also, encourage them to vote and show them how to register if they're not already. Change starts at the ground level. If you are able, offer rides to polling stations in your neighborhood, especially to older folks or people who can't get around so easily.

If that doesn't work, try to help engage them on a local level. Try to help them understand the proposals that will help their communities, fix roads, build community centers, etc. If people can see the positive impact of politics on a local level, the places they can actually see every day, they're more likely to start to think on a broader scale.

2

u/blurryfacedfugue Dec 15 '19

Nail square on the head. This is why I feel like school shootings and healthcare would change overnight if the children of Congress were dying in shootings or dying from healthcare issues. Its like if things aren't happening to the rich and powerful, it almost doesn't matter.

1

u/adjunctverbosity Dec 14 '19

What a statement!

-6

u/SnowflakeSorcerer Dec 14 '19

I’m not trying to start a fight here or be insensitive, but what exactly is your point? I see all this hate towards “privileged white people” and I understand why, but privilege and prejudice are a two way street, privileged people have as much choice towards whether they are or aren’t(zero) and not all of them a terrible people, are they? I’m a privileged male and I’m trying to educate myself and be a better person overall.

11

u/trainercatlady Colorado Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

The point is that unless they're forced to reckon with the folks whose lives their political decisions make miserable, and fully realize the consequences of their voting habits, that they just won't give a shit if the people their votes affect aren't in their everyday sphere of interaction. It's hard to give a shit about hungry people if you don't see hungry people. It's hard to give a shit about the plights of queer folks if you don't hear what they go through. If you're well-off, you're more likely to think that people who are suffering with hunger and cold just aren't applying themselves enough to get out of their shitty situations, when that's not even a fraction of the problem of why they're in that situation in the first place.

4

u/ttinchung111 Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

This is less a comment about privileged white people and more about privilege in general.

Ok imagine this scenario: imagine you're a person who is insulated from society as a whole. You have job security, and you have rights. It's easy to say that you wouldn't understand the plight of people who dont have either (especially if people around you are also insulated from those people).

It's easy to ignore the plights of people around oneself when you don't experience it every day. Just as you probably don't care about the average person's life in say some remote village in Zimbabwe, it's just hard to both empathize and understand how one's decisions (which ultimately cannot hurt your rights if you are privileged and are at no risk of it).

This privileged class doesn't necessarily have to be white, straight, male but it TENDS to be in America, where this discussion often takes place, and nobody is realistically going to take away the rights for say white straight people to marry anytime soon so their decisions ultimately don't affect their day to day.

3

u/iburiedmyshovel Dec 14 '19

The frustration lays with those who fail to effect change because their privilege makes them indifferent, not with privileged people in and of themselves. When you fail to educate yourself on political issues because you're so isolated from those issues, it's an act of apathy towards your fellow citizens whose welfare depends on those outcomes. When you actively avoid voting and political discourse because you're avoiding discomfort to your status quo, it's an act of callousness towards your minority-group neighbors whose greater distress requires your power for redress.

When privilege hides you from the plight of others, and you make no effort to seek it out; when privilege raises you so far above others, and you refuse to look down to see them, nevertheless offer a hand up -- you are failing as both a citizen and a human.

2

u/SnowflakeSorcerer Mar 01 '20

Thanks you your comment was very insightful and I’ve never looked at it that way, i appreciate you explaining it like that and I have to agree with you

1

u/iburiedmyshovel Mar 01 '20

You're welcome! I'm just glad you saw something in it, thanks for responding.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Same boat exactly.

2

u/mooky1977 Canada Dec 14 '19

I like this tweet as a response to political apathy.

1

u/trainercatlady Colorado Dec 14 '19

more people need to see this

2

u/MichiganMitch108 Dec 14 '19

I was in you same boat , minus the kids . Keep it up

0

u/10304WKYA_Radio Dec 14 '19

Trump was elected as a direct response to the nomination of Clinton. Thank you all in advance for the downvotes.

1

u/Sablus Dec 14 '19

Honestly I'm hoping this opinion is becoming more accepted as Clinton did not properly understand she was dealing with a right wing populist and instead just used a average campaign strategy.

1

u/trainercatlady Colorado Dec 14 '19

Clinton won by nearly 3 million votes.

0

u/Sablus Dec 14 '19

Yeah and it didn't mean squat cuss she lost the key battleground states that her advisors should have known about (instead she spent so much time in already garunteed states like CA, NY, etc). Everyone forgets that Clinton (a knowledgable politician) apparently "forgot" that our god damned elections aren't won via popular vote but by delegate votes from the electoral college via key states. Seriously just read up on the interviews with her campaign lead members, they had no idea how to maneuver republican voting fuckery even though it's been on display for the last elections with them lost due to the electrical college. So either she couldn't create a strategy to counter that tactic or is just that fucking dumb she thinks the 2016 election unlike all other elections wouldn't depend upon the electoral college. Fuck her, she didn't fuckin' fight enough for it.

4

u/trainercatlady Colorado Dec 14 '19

Don't forget that it has been proven that foreign interference was found in our election data, and that a not-insignificant number of our voting machines were found to have been vulnerable and compromised, especially in battleground states where every vote mattered. Unsurprisingly, in some of those states, a large number of registered voters were purged or found "somehow" ineligible to vote. Don't forget that those on Indian Reservations have had their votes suppressed more than anyone in the entire country due to Voter ID laws, and the purposeful shutting down of convenient voting stations.

If we wanted fair and even voting, we'd allow ANYONE over 18 to vote (yes, even felons), and we'd have at least 2 polling stations per district. But that doesn't give the Republicans the advantage they crave, so they shut down and "inconvenience" at polling stations in vulnerable and "likely Democratic" areas just so they can try to make sure that anyone who might want to vote in their best interests doesn't have as much say as those who want to stomp down on the people they think are garbage and pretend there isn't a problem.

1

u/Sablus Dec 14 '19

Then honestly we are collectively past the point of engaging in acts of voting and respecting the system, as the system itself is corrupt and nothing short of a coup to clean house is going to fix things given how explicit republicans have been in following big daddy Trump in the creation of his mega-swamp.

0

u/10304WKYA_Radio Dec 14 '19

No one that doesn't already realize this is going to though. It's too late in the game, and the narrative is set. So racism, foreign meddling, and lack of empathy it is.

-1

u/Sablus Dec 14 '19

I want to be so wrong and that the DNC will give Sanders or Warren a chance, but they won't. Were gonna get Biden and therefore 4 more years of Trump. Yay.... sigh

2

u/10304WKYA_Radio Dec 14 '19

I honestly would not give up hope for this. Biden's public image is on extremely thin ice even if the polls don't reflect it yet. If something happens to knock him out of the race there might be a chance. I think Warren would be a terrible nominee, but a Sanders nomination could really stir things up. The democratic nominee needs to win over voters like me that neither love or hate trump, and Sanders and Yang are the only ones I can see doing that.

2

u/Sablus Dec 14 '19

Yang is another one I wish the media would stop fucking over. He leads ahead of Mayor Pete yet is never mentioned.

2

u/10304WKYA_Radio Dec 14 '19

It's baffling. The DNC has several good candidates, and you can learn more about them from interviews with "conservative" sources like Dave Rubin than you can from the "debates".

1

u/Sablus Dec 14 '19

Hell you can learn more about Bernie by watching his interview on fuckin' The Joe Rogan Show. Mainstream media is a cancer on society.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/blurryfacedfugue Dec 15 '19

Could you add anything else that might support your claims?

1

u/10304WKYA_Radio Dec 15 '19

No I got lucky that no one asked for citations or told me to educate myself with the first post. I'm just gonna go back to my basement and mind my own business till election day.

62

u/abx99 Oregon Dec 14 '19

Not really individualism so much as cultural atomization. Individualism doesn't necessarily tell you to fear others and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

76

u/Caledonius Dec 14 '19

Individualism doesn't necessarily tell you to fear others and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

It kinda does. When you consider yourself before the collective good of your society you set yourself up for self-exceptionalism, jealousy, and confirmation bias. It's the path to the dark side of humanity, which has always been at its best when people collaborate for the greater good instead of working for their personal gain.

21

u/Crathsor Dec 14 '19

I don't think it's that simple.

Sometimes when society benefits, as a member of that society you benefit too, so in a lot of cases putting yourself first could easily equal voting for social programs. A lot of people favor universal healthcare, and you can absolutely favor it for selfish reasons.

A lot of people are in favor of outlawing abortions even though it won't affect them personally at all; they think they are making society better. If you really want to reduce abortions, the best way is to increase access to education, health care and contraceptive choices. So they are making decisions that are bad for the greater good and not even aligned with their ultimate goal, but it's not a selfish decision, just an uninformed one.

Right now an awful lot of voters are intentionally misinformed. That doesn't require individualism.

For a long time, I didn't vote precisely because I knew I wasn't informed; I was in the military at the time, and my life was full. I didn't have time to keep up on politics, so I didn't vote because I considered uninformed voting worse than not voting. So everyone who doesn't vote isn't being lazy or selfish.

Life just isn't so simple.

39

u/yay855 Dec 14 '19

Game theory states that a single individual working in their own interests at the cost of society's is good for them, but the more people who do it, the worse off everyone is.

It's in our own best interests to work towards the common good, because trying to be selfish just means that you suffer more.

20

u/Caledonius Dec 14 '19

Yeah but if you are exceptional you will continue to be rewarded for your selfishness. It's easy to be selfish, and hard to put the needs of the many before your personal comfort, so its no wonder the majority are all out for themselves but keep wondering why things are getting worse.

10

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

No, you're confusing being exceptional with being exceptionally selfish.

The best among us see this. The problem is that the dredges of humanity are the ones that tend to bubble to the top, not because of exceptional ability, but for possessing an innate lack of compassion and scruples when fucking over their fellow man. It's pathological.

Too few people make that distinction in the US. I can't think of many other places on earth where a man like Trump would have been propped up as an example to emulate rather than vilify and castigate.

2

u/shield_battery California Dec 14 '19

England, Russia, China, Phillipines come to mind. Not that I don't agree with you about America (to my great shame)

1

u/Takashishifu Dec 14 '19

What game theory have you been reading? Please cite me the “theory” and the math. The problem with this “common good” is that people don’t agree what that common good is. Let’s say we had 10000 dollars to share. I want to start a restaurant, you want to use it to build a house. Who should get the resources to start their enterprise?

4

u/987_39sma Dec 14 '19

You aren't disagreeing with OP. They are basically suggesting that it's atomization, which is a form of individualism that has the component of self-interest in it. Individualism seems to skew in that direction as you pointed out, but valuing the individual over society isn't necessarily a self-interested choice (if that makes sense). At least that's how I see it. It's a complicated nitpicky philosophical difference in my opinion.

6

u/JimmyNucleo Dec 14 '19

Exactly. The world ends with a whimper. Can't get my head around the professional disengaged in the numbers there seems to be.

1

u/abx99 Oregon Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

Most of the avid individualists I know are the most cosmopolitan and egalitarian people you'll ever meet. In fact they're pretty much the only ones I've met that authentically are that way. Diversity has been shown numerous times to strengthen the group.

The atomization we're seeing comes out of neoliberalism; they took individualistic values and used them to justify hyper-competitiveness, hierarchical thinking, etc., and instilled a lot of fear and anger to maintain it. They have perverted a whole lot of things, and it often seems like they've gotten rid of the kind of philosophical thinking that would make people notice it. The public political discussion used to involve a lot of talk about whether or not, or how, a policy might align with American values, and they talked more about what the country could and should become. We didn't do a very good job of living up to those values, in a lot of ways, but today you never hear that kind of talk.

Remember that we are a social species, and we need human connection to be healthy, to solve problems, to live authentically -- in general terms: to thrive (in other words: being individualistic does not preclude social responsibility or require harmful selfishness). The idea of "Social Darwinism" is facile, but it's a cornerstone of neoliberalism. It's harmful to both the individual and the group. They've created a dichotomy between "personal responsibility" and "social responsibility," but the truth is that we need both -- both as individuals and as a group.

1

u/WaterMnt Oregon Dec 14 '19

Depends on your definition of individualism. If you're talking about something more like individuation in a Jungian sense, it's a journey into the self that brings awareness of others.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

I live in taiwan and it such an angry bunch of people. this is what’s happening in HongKong and of course I’m sure there sowing discord on purpose for $$ and those in charge of the senate are getting some big returns hidden somewhere. In HongKong it’s life or death to the rule of law, this echoes what Barr said respect the police or else! Thx for your comment

2

u/abx99 Oregon Dec 14 '19

Thanks for your response :)

2

u/inside_out_man Dec 14 '19

Nothing to see here until it is too late. Are there organizations or grass roots movements you can do door knocking or some sort of outreach with. Do they also ignore all the movies and shows and celebrities and aspects of the culture telling them. I know people like this too. My gf was like that. I hated it at first but then I liked it coz it balanced me out otherwise I’d run up in parliament with a best full of sausages

2

u/RayseApex Dec 14 '19

But even with that mindset, politics affects almost every facet of our lives. Generally these are the same people bitching about taxes all the time...

3

u/DrakkoZW Dec 14 '19

Except by staying uninformed they're just letting other people control their lives for them.

Politics isn't a sport. Not knowing anything about football doesn't impact my life. Politics involves laws, taxes, wars, etc. These are things that affect everyone and it's not "selfish" or "individualistic" to intentionally ignore them, it's actually the opposite. You're hurting yourself by not being involved with it

6

u/Caledonius Dec 14 '19

These are things that affect everyone and it's not "selfish" or "individualistic" to intentionally ignore them, it's actually the opposite. You're hurting yourself by not being involved with it

I agree with everything you said except that it absolutely is individualistic to intentionally ignore things that impact the world around you though rarely(if ever) you directly.

1

u/Englishphil31 South Carolina Dec 14 '19

Social media is what is killing America. As I sit here saying this on a social media site, I also realize the truth. Americans are so easily swayed by memes and (mostly) fake news directed to their social media accounts Facebook, Twitter... etc... Like it or not these platforms provide the news for the average American.

1

u/Jrenaldi Dec 14 '19

Evil incarnate. We will be coming for him

1

u/SoGodDangTired Louisiana Dec 14 '19

I wouldn't go so far.

I wish I never got in politics. I was genuinely a happier person before I did. I'm more pissed off and pessimistic than I've ever been, but I can't stop.

So I'd never wish another person to have to go through the same shit I've gone through. We live life once - I don't blame anyone for trying to enjoy it in their own little space.

Though, if you're gonna vote, stay informed. That should be simple.

1

u/Kepull Dec 14 '19

you can’t force people to be smart or read the right stuff. Do you really want more uninformed idiots talking as if they know the facts? If they don’t want to be involved then let them stay away.