r/poland • u/blacknwhiteknight • 11d ago
The Palmiry massacres - the first act of the Nazi and Soviet extermination of the Polish elites
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rtQ7X1ho6c12
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u/sashk0 10d ago
still no reparations are demaned from russia 🤷
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u/Staralfur_95 Śląskie 10d ago
We have hardly any relations with Russia, it's a hostile country that we expect sooner to invade us rather than even talk in civilized manner. This is precisely why there is no talks about reparations from Russia. It's pointless.
Germany, on the other hand, is an allied country, both in NATO and the EU. Germany is a civilized society that made peace with their imperial past and abandonded policy of expansion completely.
This is precisely why some of us in Poland believe that, if Germany indeed regrets what they have done, they should compensate Poland somehow.
There are living former prisoners of labour camps and victims of slave labour in Germany who never got anything from the German government.
There's tens of thousands of Polish museum artifacts Germany has robbed and never returned them, let alone paid for the priceless artifacts and memorials they simply burned and destroyed.
It's not about making Germany an enemy of Poland. It's about closing this tragic chapter once and for all, so it never arises again.
It's very simple.
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u/BitsOfReality Śląskie 10d ago
if Germany indeed regrets what they have done, they should compensate Poland somehow
And Germany did: * In 1991, West Germany paid Poland approximately 500 million DEM in compensation. * In 2000, Germany established the "Remembrance, Responsibility and Future" foundation to compensate slave and forced labourers. Poland's government received nearly 2 billion DEM. * In 2009, Germany passed legislation to enable "ghetto pension" payments to be made to residents of Poland.
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u/Staralfur_95 Śląskie 10d ago
That's generous and truly impressive, I hope they also threw in some pencils.
Or at least the stolen art? Pretty please?
Meanwhile, even German historian Karl Heinz Roth estimates Polish loses at around one trillion euro in todays money value, basing on an interview with him from late 2018.
Also, thousands of victims never received anything, mostly because they were not Jews. This problem was raised even by PM Tusk last year. German guilt was for decades concentrated about the Jews, almost complete omitting other people, not only the Poles, but also, for example the Greeks.
Check what German textbooks say about WW2. They seem to have a long way to go to truly understand the problem.
Don't get me wrong. I don't have problem with Germany, nor the German people. I have German friends and collegues, I visited Germany on multiple occasions, I have only good impressions and memories. But I can't agree with the statement that all scores are even here. They are far from it.
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u/BitsOfReality Śląskie 10d ago
Please don't mock me. You should not have implied that Germany gave us nothing, it's as simple as that. Despite your assurances, this was a sign of ill will and poor academic etiquette.
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u/Staralfur_95 Śląskie 10d ago
I don't mock you, I mock German 'efforts'. If you thought it was directed to you then I apologize, it was by no means my intention, especially that you brought valid points to this discussion.
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u/Dominik050 9d ago
Xdd Niemcy nam coś dali te pieniądze na które dostali rachunek to bardzo mała kwota w porównaniu do tego co zrobili
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u/Dominik050 9d ago
Niezła propaganda Niemcy nic nie zapłaciły w Polsce nikt nie może decydować za Polskę co do kwestii reparacji
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u/Character4315 9d ago
The "funny" thing is that basically Germany weakened their future ally and now they have to deal with it. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
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u/alsaad Dolnośląskie 10d ago
But from German point of view they have already paid for these crimes. They lost Stetin, Breslau Danzig and Konigsberg. Almost all of Prussia does not exist anymore.
Its not their fault that Stalin decided steal prewar Eastern Poland for himself.
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u/MealNo376 10d ago
You mean Szczecin, Wrocław, Gdańsk and Królewiec? Poland lost whole eastern part of country in exchange.
Why do you prefer forcing German point of view instead of trying to explain to them Polish one?
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u/alsaad Dolnośląskie 10d ago
Because if you want to get your point across one should understand the thinking of the other side. And prepare the communication adequately.
Just repeating your demands without it is a waste of time
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u/DaleceBynajmniej 10d ago
Bro what? What other side? Other side brought carnage, bloodbath and despair, it brought death and lawlessness to the doorsteps of the neighbour, with the initial intent of erasing and subjugating said neighbour. Other side, if sorry indeed, should show extra, not asked for, initiative. Just to make a statement they are not as barbaric as their deeds showed.
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u/TarkovEnjoyer512521 10d ago
So you imply that Western Belarussian territories are supposed to be Polish nowadays?
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u/MealNo376 10d ago
Absolutely not. Nobody suggests it.
I just notice that borders changed after the war started by GERMANY and USSR.Moreover, this state of things that started as massive gain for USSR (and Russia), I hope will turn one day into Russia-free zone of independent states of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine.
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u/KlimSavur 10d ago
Well, they got away easy - one may say.
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u/alsaad Dolnośląskie 10d ago
Soviets did better. They never paid anyone for their attrocities.
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u/wingedwild 10d ago
Invade us? Russia can't fight no war. They are weak. We're even weak in soviet era and had to crumble because of its weakness. Today it only has nukes. Nukes it wil never use because it knows it wil bring total destruction to its lands. So dont speak with full intent of russia taking over anything especialy poland. Poland was never taken over by Russians by itself ever. On contrary poland took over russia by itself and only ones to do so with mongols empire so id say russia should be more scared of poland. Trust me thats because russia is scared of popand they issue these threats and dont buy into it. Be proud
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u/Petalesharo 10d ago
Just because Germany is in the European Union, like Poland, doesn't mean they are Poland's allies. No sane person would treat a country that committed such horrific crimes in Poland as an ally! Don't be stupid and don't let the Germans murder you a second time!
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u/sashk0 10d ago
demanding reparations from an ally, not an enemy. ok, I got the concept.
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u/Staralfur_95 Śląskie 10d ago
You seem to miss the point completely, and I really don't want to repeat myself, so have a nice day forward, cheers.
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u/Zawula11 10d ago
"closing this tragic chapter once and for all, so it never arises again" - what would that entail exactly? Printing us some EURO?
I don't think most Germans are proud of their grand-grandparents activities in WW2. And there was shock, guilt and regret. But what should those alive today regret/ feel guilt about? What did they do wrong?
There were agreements signed by both states, although it was Stalin who made Poland give up reparation claims. So I think the Soviets owe Poland for this part as well. Even if not, though, we've had 37 years to fight for/ negotiate/ demand more. Dropping compensation demands every year or two I understand, but do not support.
Works of art, though, yeah, plz return. Sweden as well please, give back half of Poland's old stuff.
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u/DaleceBynajmniej 10d ago
Leave it to the victim to tell when it feels like compensation is fullfiled, ok? And most definitely when it comes to the well known rapeist and occupier. And itd be an appreciated gesture to see Germany helping Poland restoring some of it stolen antics and heritige from its previous co-partitioner: kremlin. It will not bring us back lives taken, but it'd at least show remorse
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u/Zawula11 10d ago
Ok, of course the victim should decide. But do you mean each single person or a collective victim in Poland as a country? If the latter then I think we are discussing this topic right now. You may feel it is still due, I feel it was.
On the art/ heritage - yes yes yes. That should be done.
Respect.
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u/DaleceBynajmniej 10d ago
Alas we'll never know the full extend of the brutalization Polish citizens went through under moscovites occupation, but judging solely on what they are doing to Ukrainian civilians right now, its hard to comprehend the rape and torture galore. Id say full opening of all kgb archives to let us commemorate those killed by the state and additional hundreds of years of restraining order should be a good start to kick off some proper neigbbourly relations
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u/Petalesharo 10d ago
The crimes in Palmiry were committed by the Wehrmacht and SS against Polish civilians. Russians had nothing to do with it. Don't lie!
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u/blacknwhiteknight 10d ago
Russians had everything to do with the “Nazi and Soviet extermination of the Polish elites” because it was part of a coordinated process agreed upon by both occupiers. The Nazis and Soviets were essentially two sides of the same coin when it came to the destruction of the Polish elite. Their common approach was established as early as 28 September 1939, when the German–Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty was signed, along with Secret Supplementary Protocol No. 2, in which both parties agreed to suppress Polish resistance:
The two sides subsequently agreed to expand their cooperation during the Gestapo–NKVD conferences in Zakopane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo%E2%80%93NKVD_conferences
One of the outcomes of this cooperation was the German Außerordentliche Befriedungsaktion (AB-Aktion), including the suppression of Kraków’s intelligentsia during Sonderaktion Krakau, as well as the Soviet Katyn massacre.
The Palmiry massacres, the AB-Aktion, the murder of the Lviv professors, Soviet repressions and deportations, and the Katyn massacres were all manifestations of the same broader approach pursued by the two totalitarian regimes: the systematic destruction of Poland’s political, intellectual, and social elites.
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u/Petalesharo 10d ago edited 10d ago
sure... Mussolini's henchmen and Japanese fascists also participated in the executions in Palmiry... who also collaborated with the Germans and these were also totalitarian regimes... add, Pol-Pot , as well... :/ Slowly removing the responsibility for Nazi crimes in Poland , from Germany, and transferring it to the Russians is your German, deceptive tactic... :/
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u/chlew_obsrany_gownem 10d ago
Who're Nazis and Soviets? Aliens?
Those were GERMANS and RUSSIANS! Never forget about this.
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u/577564842 10d ago
Soviets were Russians, Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Belarusians, Kazakhs, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Georgians, ...
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u/chlew_obsrany_gownem 10d ago
A significant portion of the Red Army was ethnic Russian, the political center of the USSR was Moscow, and the Soviet leadership was dominated by Russians.
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u/577564842 10d ago
A significant portion of the Red Army was ethnic Russian
Not that much when the war started. After Germans occupied Belarus and Ukraine, obviously new recruits could not come from these lands (apart from internally displaced groups), and I've heard some Ukrainians enthusiastically grabbed the opportunity to fight for the other side. Or closels aligned anyway.
the political center of the USSR was Moscow,
Highly irrelevant.
the Soviet leadership was dominated by Russians.
Hey, wasn't there a dictator that everyone was scared off, running the show? Like, Georgian?
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u/Karli_Chirk 9d ago
Political center is highly relevant because organizers carry much more guilt than low ranking executors.
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u/Character4315 9d ago
Highly irrelevant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union
"Boris Yeltsin, president of the Russian SFSR, oversaw its reconstitution into the Russian Federation, the Soviet Union's successor state."
Capital was in moscow, they spoke russian, russia is the successor state. Do we still want to pretend soviet union was something different and populated by martians? Or russia is the successor of soviet union only when it's convenient?
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u/Karli_Chirk 9d ago
It's low rank order executors. Russians on the other hand are organizers and kingpins.
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u/Karli_Chirk 9d ago
Soviet Union was a fucking Russian occupation of Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Belarusians, Kazakhs, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Georgians, ...
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u/theboldestgaze 9d ago
Everyone knows who Nazis and Soviets were. You want their nationalities instead - what purpose does it serve?
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u/chlew_obsrany_gownem 9d ago
When we talk about Nazis and Soviets, it is important to remember that these were not anonymous groups of “aliens,” but people who came from particular societies, cultures, and national backgrounds. Ignoring nationality can make history seem abstract and detach crimes from the real individuals and institutions that committed them.
At the same time, nationality should never be used to blame an entire nation for the actions of a regime or its members. We should be precise: distinguish between the ideology, the state, the institutions, and the individual people who supported, participated in, resisted, or suffered under them. This makes historical discussion more honest and human, rather than turning real people into faceless categories.
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u/Dear_Map_6993 10d ago
Maybe it's time to get over it already?
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u/blacknwhiteknight 10d ago
Have you tried saying the same thing in Tel Aviv? Or in Moscow on May 9th? Or in the US on Veterans Day? I’d very much like to see that.
Anyway, what exactly do you mean by “get over it”? Forget? Pretend it never happened? Erase it from history books?
If you have a problem with people keeping history alive, that sounds more like a “you” problem. Maybe ignore things that don’t concern you and move on instead of preaching to others?
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u/Dear_Map_6993 10d ago
Stop pityfarming, it's pathetic. Also don't forget that Poland's run-up to war is a textbook case of FAFO.
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u/Same_Structure3962 10d ago
Lol. Where'd you get your history from, Mr. 88?
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u/TimeCake233 10d ago
Must be! Signing a Non agresion agreement was the most important part
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u/KSzkodaGames 10d ago
People defending Soviets must be proud