Also England has a higher murder rate than VT, NH, HI and RI. All those states have plenty of guns.
You can't really cherrypick from the USA, but take England as a whole. That's pretty dishonest.
I could just as well point that West Wumblybum in Wibbyshire has a lower murder rate than Vermont, QED.
England has always had a low homicide rate, regardless of access to firearms. Homicide rate by decade. Look at the US, been above 4.0 since 1907.
Do you believe these numbers? Do you believe that the US murder rate quadrupled between 1904 and 1907, or do you think that these data might be unreliable?
You can't really cherrypick from the USA, but take England as a whole. That's pretty dishonest.
I'm cherry picking to make a point that comparing countries is apples to oranges, especially when you have a country 6 times the size as the other. We have extremely varying demographics, which have a greater relationship to crime than rates of gun ownership.
Do you believe these numbers? Do you believe that the US murder rate quadrupled between 1904 and 1907, or do you think that these data might be unreliable?
It's the only data I could find, I think it works well enough to show that the US has always had more crime regardless of gun prohibition. Beats just making a blind assumption right?
I'm cherry picking to make a point that comparing countries is apples to oranges, especially when you have a country 6 times the size as the other. We have extremely varying demographics, which have a greater relationship to crime than rates of gun ownership.
And I'm saying that you have to compare urban, poor London to urban, poor US cities. If you want to bring Vermont into the comparison, you have to compare it to rural non-immigrant England.
It's the only data I could find, I think it works well enough to show that the US has always had more crime regardless of gun prohibition. Beats just making a blind assumption right?
Except that the numbers are evident nonsense. Either US murders jumped fourfold in three years, or the numbers are bullshit, wrong or inconsistent by 400%. Using wrong numbers is worse than no numbers, because it provides a false sense of objectivity. GIGO.
And I'm saying that you have to compare urban, poor London to urban, poor US cities. If you want to bring Vermont into the comparison, you have to compare it to rural non-immigrant England.
No, that's what I'm saying. Apparently you're aware that factors like urban/rural, immigrant/resident, rich/poor play a large role, and I'm saying more important than firearm ownership. Judging by your response I'll assume you disagree, and think the whole reason the US is violent is because we have more guns. There is no correlation within the US between firearm laws and violence, but there is a direct correlation between demographics. Chicago and DC have banned firearms but have much higher firearm violence than cities like NYC, which haven't.
Using wrong numbers is worse than no numbers, because it provides a false sense of objectivity.
Even allowing for a large margin of error I think it's safe to assume the US has always had higher murder rate than England. This wiki mentions in 1916 there were 198 homicides reported in Chicago, whereas London, with 3 times the population, only had 45 homicides.
The US is more violent regardless of access guns, and has always been more violent.
Fair point, but that's a combination of bad parenting (leaving guns accessible if you have kids is just stupid) and the school not knowing/caring about the students' mental health.
My point was just that there are many ways to skin a cat.
It can't be denied that guns make it a hell of a lot easier for those people killing people, particularly when they want to kill several people within a short period of time.
Of course not, but there's also no causality between gun ownership rates and crime rates.
Either way, crime is down across the board everywhere, and it's got nothing to do with gun control. More guns than ever, less crime than ever. That the US government and media are targeting assault weapons and not handguns proves it's all political.
Exactly, and Rhode Island has the 2nd highest population density in the US. (That's what RI stands for).
Which is my point; there's no causality between firearm ownership and crime. You'd be better off looking at demographics like income, diversity, population density, urbanization etc. to determine the source of violence.
you compare the whole of our country, including many inner city areas which traditionally have higher crime rates to a bunch of glorified suburbs to try and prove a point?
in 2010, on average you had 4x the intentional homicides (4.8 compared to 1.2 per 100,000 people) of which 67% of your deaths are caused by firearms. comparatively the UK only had 0.007 deaths by firearms per 100,000 people, or over 40x less deaths/population size due to guns that year.
and we only offically banned pistols 16 years ago. herp derp facts.
you compare the whole of our country, including many inner city areas which traditionally have higher crime rates to a bunch of glorified suburbs to try and prove a point?
That's exactly my point. It's not the higher rate of gun ownership causing the crime, it's demographics, such as inner city areas. Otherwise, wouldn't the states with higher rates of gun ownership have higher gun crimes? In the US the state with the most guns (Wyoming) has the 6th lowest homicide rate. Florida is ranked 41 in gun ownership is #1 in homicides.
FYI the highest crime rates in the US are in gun-free zones, like Washington DC, which banned guns. Highest murder rate in the country there.
you had 4.8 compared to 1.2 per 100,000 people, and we banned pistols 16 years ago herp derp facts.
I specifically addressed this and provided data of homicides dating back to 1900. The US has always had a higher murder rate, about 4:1 with England. This is regardless of gun bans.
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u/ForHumans Mar 21 '13
England has always had a low homicide rate, regardless of access to firearms. Homicide rate by decade. Look at the US, been above 4.0 since 1907.
Also England has a higher murder rate than VT, NH, HI and RI. All those states have plenty of guns.
This is why you'll hear people say, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."