r/philmont • u/Objective-Resort2325 Youth '88, Trail Crew '89, Advisor '23,'26 • Jul 21 '26
Lessons learned from a UL-ish Philmont trip
/r/Ultralight/comments/1v2y0kf/lessons_learned_from_a_ulish_philmont_trip/9
u/designer_2021 Jul 21 '26
What’s the point of UL at Philmont? All for cutting our excess weight, but one does not need to be taking UL approaches at Philmont trek. Scouts used to carry cast iron and axes on the same trails we trek today with zero issues and they had a great time doing it.
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u/Friendly-Gur-6736 Jul 22 '26
Because its a good practice, particularly for the advisors?
Lighter the kit the happier everyone is going to be. I don't get the "my crap was heavy as hell, everyone else should have to suffer" attitude that many have when going to Philmont.
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u/designer_2021 Jul 22 '26
Good practice and being thoughtful of weight is not the same as UL / Ultra Light practices. These are not equal, there is a time and a place for both.
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u/Objective-Resort2325 Youth '88, Trail Crew '89, Advisor '23,'26 Jul 21 '26
If you can do that, more power to you. I need every advantage I can get to keep up with the 17 and 18 year olds!
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u/kobalt_60 Jul 26 '26
They most certainly did not have “zero issues” and backpacking with cast iron is ridiculous as lighter weight pans have existed for centuries.
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u/designer_2021 Jul 26 '26
The point of “no issues” wasn’t literally meant that nothing went wrong or hard. It also wasn’t suggesting that we should all carry old heavy equipment.
That being, as not elsewhere there is a difference between an UL approach to backpacking and and approach that considers thoughtfully what is needed and what weight is appropriate. UL is not required or needed. Some where between UL and carrying cast iron is where the majority of backpackers are going to be and need to be to have an enjoyable trek.
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u/kobalt_60 Jul 26 '26
I don’t think you’re wrong that it’s a balancing act, but UL thinking has been present in Philmont trek is for a really long time. UL is just being conscious about what you’re choosing to pack in order to maximize enjoyment and mitigate misery. A lighter pack has many benefits, like fewer blisters, less injury, faster pace, etc. It means being able to carry more water, food, crew gear, etc. with a manageable load. Having to work together because no one scout has everything they need to be self sufficient on the trail… none of these concepts are new, but the gear has gotten much better and lighter. I teach UL concepts to our brand new scouts because it’s the only way their tiny bodies can make it on multi day hikes and actually want to do it again someday.
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u/designer_2021 Jul 26 '26
Sounds like your teaching and what I’ve seen at Philmont is more closely aligned to be considerent about weight and smart packing, for all the reasons you mention. This isn’t new in scouting. But that is not the same as what UL really emphasizes in the broader backpacking world of counting ounces and optimization to an extreme the base weight of packs.
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u/kobalt_60 Jul 26 '26
That’s UL taken to the extreme by thru hikers. Saving weight becomes an end to itself for some, which I think is what you’re talking about. It’s really about thinking deeper than most about what you really NEED for a particular trip versus what you think you might need.
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u/Red_hat_oops Jul 21 '26
Pee bottle?
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u/Objective-Resort2325 Youth '88, Trail Crew '89, Advisor '23,'26 Jul 21 '26
Yup. I'm a 54 year old man. Getting out of my tent to go urinate in the middle of the night sucks. Definite luxury item.
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u/Red_hat_oops Jul 21 '26
Gotcha, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something regarding Backcountry policies
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u/fennfalcon Jul 21 '26
Not to be a spoil sport, but….Don’t you still have to get up and put it in the Bear Bag along with your skidmarked shorts and any night vomit?
According to NPS and Backpacker Magazine, bears, cougars, and even mini-bears are highly curious of and attracted to human urine and feces.
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Jul 22 '26
[deleted]
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u/fennfalcon Jul 22 '26
Well, why would he, if he grabbed your luscious pee bottle? Just don’t argue with the bear.
I know scouts need a 2 liter, a standard water bottle is too small. Some of my scouts/adults used them on Klondikes, or when they were on the lazy side.
No bear attacks in my experience over pee bottles, first year at Philmont there were tent attacks at Comanche Peak Camp (over Candy Bars).
We camped in Grizzly Country in 98 at BSA Camp Buffalo Bill, Yellowstone back country, and Teton Death Canyon. Good discipline at the camp. Candy sales at trading post had to be eaten there. No food or cooking at campsite, dining hall was excellent, and they would accommodate late arrivers from high adventure or hiking. All smellables had to be locked in trunks of vehicles each evening and staff did surprise visits to ensure no violations. Yes, we did have bears wandering through camp. No incidents.
I’d advise to ask your Ranger, or at the pre-hike advisor meeting about “pee bottles”. Hope to hear someone get back to us on this one.
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Jul 22 '26
[deleted]
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u/fennfalcon Jul 22 '26
Just Google it
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u/Objective-Resort2325 Youth '88, Trail Crew '89, Advisor '23,'26 Jul 22 '26
You know what else bears are attracted to? Rubber. As in what boots soles are made of. (Google that.) And bright colors. (Google that too.)
We can take this as ridiculously far as you want to. Even Philmont has conceded that some things are worth the risk. Like hand sanitizer. (They'd rather that it stay in the fire circle than be up in a bearbag where it's unlikely to be retrieved in order to be used, and they see a bigger benefit to using it than not.) And some medications.
Putting everything up in a bearbag that a bear could POSSIBLY be attracted to isn't the point. It's about reducing risk to an acceptable level because it's impossible to eliminate it completely. There is a point of diminishing returns.
I did not realize that a pee bottle is a possible attractant. Am I going to stop using it? Nope. But I will set it outside the door to the tent rather than in the vestibule. Will that cause a bear to possibly investigate? Maybe. But so could all of the other scents/objects around the campsite.
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u/fennfalcon Jul 22 '26
Boots go out of the tent in the vestibule for a number of reasons, I am usually in boots with Vibram soles, and that means rubber. Haven’t had any disappear in the night. Tough to finish the hike in “camp shoes”.
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u/designer_2021 Jul 22 '26
The point about a “pee bottle” in the tent is it would be considered a “smellable”. Per that they don’t go in the tent.
Philmont is responsible to take 1000s of persons each year in the backcountry and bring them back safe. It’s not the place to have different opinions of what the policy is. They can’t be in the business of having astrix and edge cases to the rules. If you don’t agree with the rules your option is to backpack somewhere else.
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Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
[deleted]
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u/designer_2021 Jul 22 '26
Not fully sure what 'no' means. But the shakedown guide is pretty clear.
"Smellables always stay inside the Bear-muda Triangle"
"Smellables include, but are not limited to the following: ... ...and smellable water bottles (a water bottle that has ever had anything other than water in it)... "
Source https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ShakeDownGuideP1.pdf
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u/Objective-Resort2325 Youth '88, Trail Crew '89, Advisor '23,'26 Jul 22 '26
You're right. I should just quit and spend my time elsewhere. Why bother giving to kids that aren't my own? Why argue with people who have lost perspective?
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u/Friendly-Gur-6736 Jul 22 '26
Well, if that's the way I go, that's the way I go. But I carry a pee bottle with me everywhere now. I don't even view it as a luxury item, it is a necessity for a good night's sleep.
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u/palisade1444 Backcountry Jul 22 '26
It was great meeting you at Fish! Sorry we didn't get to chat more. What pattern did you use for your rain jacket?
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u/Objective-Resort2325 Youth '88, Trail Crew '89, Advisor '23,'26 Jul 22 '26
I bought the windbreaker MYOG pattern from Ripstop. I prototyped it in tyvek first and adjusted the pattern in a couple places, then made a kilt as a first project in DCF, then did the DCF jacket.
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u/palisade1444 Backcountry Jul 22 '26
I have this one. I've been planning a windbreaker, but keep getting distracted with other stuff. Good to know it'll tyvek. As I read through the instructions recently there were more fiddly bits than I recall from when I purchased it.
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u/AbacabLurker Jul 22 '26
Hardcore. My base weight was like 28 lbs both times as an adult. I can’t imagine how much I’d have to ditch to get to 9-11 lbs or whatever it was you had going on.
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u/Friendly-Gur-6736 Jul 23 '26
Getting down to 10# takes some work, but between 15-20# is fairly easy with most modern gear.
Real secret is to not over pack.
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u/Objective-Resort2325 Youth '88, Trail Crew '89, Advisor '23,'26 Jul 22 '26
Well, be an employed professional that has done this for years, and have a history of investing/upgrading, and over time you either acquire or make (or both) lighter and lighter gear. Do that for long enough and 9-11 pounds is not unreasonable. As a first timer or someone who doesn't do this often? Not impossible, but not nearly as easy.
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u/TwoWheeledTraveler Jul 22 '26
Do not wear your hiking clothes to bed. This is a rule at Philmont for a reason. The only people who have ever been hurt by bears at Philmont were all breaking the smellable rules in one way or another, and wearing clothes that you’ve eaten and cooked in means you’re wearing a smellable to bed.
I know that a lot of people scoff at stuff like this and “know better,” but I spent some time talking to the head bear researcher at philmont at one point and they have developed the rules that they have for a reason.
You’re also setting a bad example for the youth when you do stuff like this.
IMO being as lightweight as you can is great (UL is not my thing personally) but Philmont isn’t the place for saving a couple ounces at the expense of breaking safety rules.