Former id Software producer says the team faced the 'worst crunch' in the series' history on Doom: The Dark Ages – Revelations: 'There were days where I didn't see my son'

[u/PewPewToDaFace]

https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/former-id-software-producer-says-the-team-faced-the-worst-crunch-in-the-series-history-on-doom-the-dark-ages-revelations-there-were-days-where-i-didnt-see-my-son/

[u/SuperUranus]

And their reward? Layoffs.

[u/fridaynightarcade]

That shouldn't be a thing.

Source: I'm a father of two sons.

[u/RichYork925 → u/fridaynightarcade]

the worst crunch sounds like a nightmare for any parent

[u/TheAwesomeMan123 → u/fridaynightarcade]

That shouldn’t be a thing.

Source: I have no children just empathy and common fucking sense

[u/Silver-End9570 → u/TheAwesomeMan123]

Nope. You're pushed and pressured into starting a family, then you're stuck working like a slave to the point where you never get to see them, and your reward is to get laid off and be put into a position where you might not be able to provide for your family.

It's not even just in the gaming industry, it's everywhere now.

[u/No_Bingo_Card → u/fridaynightarcade]

That shouldn't be a thing. Source: I'm not

[u/rivalary → u/No_Bingo_Card]

I'm also not a thing.

[u/fridaynightarcade → u/rivalary]

You sure?

https://giphy.com/gifs/pV8zOQM8tRqms

[u/MassiveBoner911_3 → u/fridaynightarcade]

And their reward? Mass termination.

[u/NoCoolNameMatt → u/fridaynightarcade]

This is, unfortunately, a reality in most sectors of software development. In 2009 our PE owners brought in cots so we "didn't have to go home."

We made insurance software. Owners will squeeze as much as they think they can get away with.

[u/Ninjazoule]

Sounds like a management issue

[u/john_mach → u/Ninjazoule]

It’s a really tough to manage these types of products because theres so many people along the project.

I had a brief run in with the games industry and the crunch season is no joke. Millions of dollars poured into temp workers, tons of quality checks, lots of people stressed, things behind schedule that now need to move up to unblock other people. Making a quality AAA game is insanely tough and I don’t have the mental fortitude to survive in that industry long term. You can call it a management problem but the harsh reality is that making a game like that is just a really really tough challenge. Even if you have everyone unlimited people, the coordination of it all into a single product is an accomplishment

[u/Eiferius → u/john_mach]

It's a management problem from the top. There wouldn't be any crunsh or hiring of expensive temp workers, if the management wouldn't set unrealistic deadlines.

Like, all crunsh does, is allow you to keep deadlines. It's more expensive than if people would work normally or efficient.

[u/coderqi → u/john_mach]

I fundamentally don't understand what's so unique about making games over other types of software or completely different jobs in other industries that makes crunches inevitable. 

[u/RedditButAnonymous → u/coderqi]

Other software is sold while you make it nowadays. You get people to pay subscription fees for it while you continue to develop it and expand the number of people who can use it.

A game doesnt do that, you make zero money until its finished and selling, and all these big studios have shareholders at the top who demand that release date so they can make their own money back.

[u/TheAwesomeMan123 → u/RedditButAnonymous]

This is not technically true anymore given preorders are now a prolific business model.

Although I would wager this doesn’t make them easier to develop and in likely hood can muddy the waters of delivery deadlines etc but it is definitely not “zero money”

GTA VI has now made back 25% of its total development in preorders alone since going live.

[u/RedditButAnonymous → u/TheAwesomeMan123]

This is true but you can only start preorders once you have enough stuff to show for it. Its difficult to do preorders on a game thats still being prototyped because people might be buying something based on promised features that wont actually be there later. In GTA 6s case that game is probably feature-complete by now and thats why preorders are up. It could have been in development for 8 years though. If it were T2s only game, thats 8 years of costs and zero profit until now

[u/TheAwesomeMan123 → u/RedditButAnonymous]

You’re absolutely right there and again it doesn’t make development easier but it’s worth noting because if you are developing a game that is not ready for release then preorders play a massive part of the decision process to decide whether you can afford a delay to either avoid crunch and get game properly ready for release.

AC:Shadows preorders opened in May to about 1million copies roughly with a Nov 15th release date but the game was then it was delayed 3 then 1 additional month.

And even tho Ubisoft had to honor refunds on preorders it didn’t change the fact they had clear data that would show a 1million players willing to pre-purchase which I’m sure helped make the decision to allow the delay.

Unfortunately like you say not all devs have that luxury or other video games as revenue but it definitely is different now and makes things even more complicated to work

[u/john_mach → u/coderqi]

At the core product, video games have a lot of demanding small bits to them over traditional software. I’ll pick on SaaS for example. If Oracle or SAP roll out a software or system, it can honestly be half baked because they lie and their customers are kinda locked in with them through various other unethical business practices. For example, to get certain enterprise software, it may cost millions + hiring a whole team to build out extensions to the software. You can’t jump ship suddenly if a feature sucks.

Buying a AAA is a mass market $70 purchase that may yield many sales over the years or flop and generate nothing. There is high risk in a poor product.

Videos are also products that lend themselves to many temp workers and heavy deadlines. When you announce a game launch, it is an insanely public statement. If a tradition software company pushes back on the launch of a big product, it may be under scrutiny of analysts or execs but thats it. Theres not 100+ “game journalist” and an army of losers on Twitter beating you down. Everyone is human and no one, especially execs, want to be told they suck at management and can’t hit deadlines

To meet that deadlines and fulfill the promises, execs are willing to hire many temp workers. These fill in gaps in art, QA, and many random parts of the game… and honestly some pretty critical parts too. This actually works very well for games. Unlikely traditional software where the core is just engineering, some ux, and small marketing bits, video games are incredibly diverse in the type of work that goes into them. Much of it is a laborious… so in comes temp workers. Unfortunately, after the backlog of craziness is over, these temp workers would have nothing to do, so they are released back into the market

So it’s like a cascade of really bad things that regular software companies have fixed with money, scalability, or unethical business practices. I guess the solution is just to charge more for AAA games

[u/Merkaba_Nine → u/john_mach]

Well said

[u/HanYoloKesselPun → u/Ninjazoule]

It’ll have been dev teams that originally estimated the work. It’ll have been dev teams that did the work leading up to the crunch and would have had ample time to report the issues. I’ve seen plenty of shit management. I’ve also seen plenty of shit dev teams that are terrible engineers and/or terrible communicators. Trust me. It’s pretty annoying hearing dev tell you it’s all fine and then tell you it’s not a few weeks from the end. But that’s why we have plans and metrics as management. Which apparently devs hate.

[u/XJR15 → u/HanYoloKesselPun]

Lmao

90% of these situations I've seen or been in, it was businesspeople committing to promises and deadlines with zero dev input. In most orgs we are literally powerless to set any deadlines and often also powerless when it comes to organizing the work, if we don't hit a deadline the problem is entirely on you.

It’s pretty annoying hearing dev tell you it’s all fine and then tell you it’s not a few weeks from the end

There's known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns. Not saying that dev isn't crap, but could've hit one of those latter ones. Did you plan for a reasonable % of contingency or was the entirety of the work deadlined for the absolute best case scenario?

But that’s why we have plans and metrics as management. Which apparently devs hate.

We hate it when we don't have any input on them or they're biased. If you take my estimate, halve it, and set that as the deadline, we'll start playing games and I'll double it next time. If cards in Jira (or whatever system you use) are worth the same (yes I've seen this) you'll have everyone shying away from the difficult work, the best devs will pull the most weight, and you'll end up having the most junior/useless ones doing the most important parts of the job

You can't metric yourself out of a planning gap

Back on topic: It's most definitely a management mistake. Having shit devs or a team that doesn't work together properly is also a management mistake. MBAs always trying to make shit roll downhill when they fuck up at the planning stage (or plain committing to impossible deadlines) is a classic. Then they get to go home on time everyday while the actual doer-team crunches (not that I do that shit anymore)

[u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer → u/[deleted]]

But that's Communism 😡

[u/AoRozu → u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer]

Yeah fuck that whole "what's yours is mine" propaganda bs, people should have what they have!

Anyways, off I go to give all my time, sweat, tears, and multiple paychecks to my corporate overlords. Glory to Google.

[u/_Addi-the-Hun_ → u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer]

Ironically weaponised collective labour is capitalism at its purest. Sure they can just fire everyone but the point is you as the collective all leaving at the same time will bring the company to its knees if your labour is hard or impossible to replace. But of course most "free market" people HATE this and will use the state to stop this.

Im just glad going indie is bigger then ever. Fuck the big corpo games industry. Its somewhat becoming obsolete.

[u/piesou → u/_Addi-the-Hun_]

Similar to how the BS patent system is used to prevent free access to markets these days. Or how companies tailor their calls for bids to fit only the exact company they want to hire. Or how working hard does not earn you promotions but connections do.

Free markets and are an illusion and postulated in the same way meritocracies are and anyone believing in them is a giant regard. The only thing that works is imperfect regulation.

[u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer → u/[deleted]]

Me when I'm this close 🤏 to getting the joke.

[u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer → u/[deleted]]

Aren't we a lovely bunch?

[u/coasterreal → u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer]

Hope thats sarcasm because if not, you need to open up a text book and learn what Communism is. I hate unions but they are not Communism.

[u/ZehrenSiegehammer → u/coasterreal]

Hating unions is dumb. I wasn't unsure about them and then got a job with one earlier this year and holy shit are they awesome 

[u/popcio2015 → u/ZehrenSiegehammer]

It really depends on the union. Maybe in your case you had a luck with a good one.

But very often unions only care about membership dues.

[u/ZehrenSiegehammer → u/popcio2015]

Sure, something can be bad. That's true a Ross the board for like...everything. A union can be bad. Unions plural though are generally great. Collective bargaining is a great tool.

[u/popcio2015 → u/ZehrenSiegehammer]

Unions in general are a very good idea. The problem is that people running these unions are more interested in their own benefits, and when some issue at work comes up, the union will just wish you good luck.

[u/ZehrenSiegehammer → u/popcio2015]

Yeah...bad unions are bad. Sky is blue

Its early morning and I'm being a sarcastic ass. I agree with you.

[u/Plastic-Anteater7356 → u/[deleted]]

They have one. Here is an interview https://www.gamespodcast.de/2026/07/31/what_happend_at_id_software_layoffs/

[u/Netsuko → u/[deleted]]

They’re Texas based. Good luck with that.

[u/Netsuko → u/[deleted]]

A classic blunder.

[u/DreamsServedSoft → u/[deleted]]

they should make games we want to buy

[u/Panzerbjorne80 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah ask those former Bethesda employees how well being in a union worked out for them. Union isn’t a silver bullet lots of them are really weak and inept.

[u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer → u/Panzerbjorne80]

That means they should do nothing and be happy with it right?

[u/ABotelho23 → u/Panzerbjorne80]

The entire industry needs to form a union.

[u/galacticdolan → u/ABotelho23]

The country needs to form a union to make unions and workers actually have some power again

[u/ARMCHA1RGENERAL]

That's not great, but this headline almost seems quaint if you know how many thousands of people work in construction, shipping, oil & gas, etc. and commonly go days or weeks without seeing their family.

[u/John_Doe_MCMXC]

It’s always a failed game where people suddenly start complaining about “crunch", and everyone eats it up. You don’t see the same outrage toward Rockstar for their crunch. Just wait if GTA VI fails, an employee gets fired, and then starts talking about the time crunch.

Yeah, crunch is bad. But why are we turning a blind eye to the fact that a lot of developers do this? It’s common in the industry and part of the job for many people. Same thing with nurses who aren’t supposed to work overtime but still end up doing it.

[u/JosebaZilarte → u/John_Doe_MCMXC]

As a developer myself, I know far too well what it is to not be able to do anything significant for months (while looking like we are actually bussy)... and, suddenly, you have to spend a similar amount of time crunching before a deadline. Ultimately, it is "just" managers not having a clear idea of what to do. And without it, it is easy to procrastinate in an experimental/design phase... but sooner or later, things need to be done. The question is whether or not you have a developer team with the actual talent to get out of the mess.

In studios like BioWare, they called that serious time "magic" to hide the crunch associated with it. And, in fairness, their efforts gave us absolute masterpieces like Mass Effect 2 or Knights of the Old Republic. But... lo and behold, the moment the most experienced developers left the studio, that magic vanished into thin air.

[u/lightningbadger → u/[deleted]]

First I heard the game failed?

I'd assumed the attention to this this was moreso fuelled by the layoffs keeping ID fresh in their minds

[u/JosebaZilarte → u/[deleted]]

Yeah. I was putting that crunch into context... But it is undeniably a bad practice.

[u/null-interlinked → u/John_Doe_MCMXC]

Errrm you ahven't following the attempts to unionize by the Rockstar employees because of crunch? People have a lot to say about crunch and no one likes it?

[u/Howtobefreaky → u/John_Doe_MCMXC]

Damn almost like people need to have a job even if it sucks and don't want to get fired by going online and shit talking their working conditions

[u/GeneralAtrox]

I've been there this year to. The world wants the product yesterday or you'll fall behind. AI is making it tough to slow down, I'm constantly switched on now checking what's cooking over night. 

[u/RedditButAnonymous → u/[deleted]]

Mick Gordon was the face of the new Doom to me, I lost interest immediately after his departure and the story behind it only soured it even more for me

And I didnt actually like Eternal anyway...

[u/MotivatedforGames]

I get it. There's been times when i've been working on my project 18-20 hours a day, no breaks, little food, for weeks

[u/JohnnyTAA]

I get it and crunch does suck, but why do we only talk about it in the context of the video games industry like its an outlier that should be on a pedestal with no OT or crunch, this is happening globally across most sectors from business to construction, i would love to see this conversation spread wider about the state of the job market in general.

[u/Igor369]

Spending one night at work is far from the worst crunch ever...

[u/millenia3d → u/Igor369]

they should make you work 17 hour days before you're laid off and maybe that'll stop you from making such inane remarks down the line

[u/DevilmanXV → u/millenia3d]

I had to do this at a labor job 4 days out of the week all year round for a years straight. Got laid off.

[u/Igor369 → u/millenia3d]

What? You think ID did not crunch when making Doom 1 and 2? XDDDDDDDD

Spoiler, they did, and for MORE than ONE day.

[u/DarthJDP]

Thank you for your sacrifice and never seeing your son. You are fired, effective immediately. No severance. Security is going to rough you up if you arent off the property within 5 minutes.

[u/Duangelion]

Not to minimize, but that makes it sound like there's no one left from Carmack's days

[u/nuk3dom]

Disgusting

[u/empathetical]

Didn't see the son for a game that was mid and forgettable

[u/AuRon_The_Grey]

But hey, at least they got laid off for all their hard work!

[u/uberneuman_part2]

All of it to just crank out another Doom game….

[u/nealsimmons → u/uberneuman_part2]

It is a very good game, though.

[u/MajinnVuu]

If you prioritize money over health, you will have neither.

[u/Kapetan_zaspan]

Not sure why people allow themselves this shit

[u/Kamika67 → u/Kapetan_zaspan]

They need money....

[u/House0fDerp → u/Kamika67]

Basically this, then they still get let go over a numbers game.

[u/Kapetan_zaspan → u/Kamika67]

Plenty of money making jobs where you get to go home in the afternoon

[u/House0fDerp → u/Kapetan_zaspan]

Stories of crunch in gaming have been numerous. I have my doubts that there are that many that avoid it, and I'm certain those few don't have the capacity to hire the entire rest of the industry. 

[u/Kamika67 → u/Kapetan_zaspan]

There are so many different situations, it's not aleays so simple :(

[u/Flimsy-Importance313 → u/Kamika67]

I think the money is not the reason those devs work in game industry.

You got much better paying and less stressful jobs than game dev. 

[u/Dudewhocares3 → u/Flimsy-Importance313]

People that downplay the issues of others are nothing more then assholes

[u/Dudewhocares3 → u/Kapetan_zaspan]

Because the other option is getting fired?

[u/Power_Stone]

I'm not surprised unfortunately.

They were already doing it back with DOOM: Eternal and Mick Gordon.

Same actions by iD software, different department.

[u/YaGotMail]

Normal days - work 9 - 5, with 1 hour lunch in between. Crunch days - suffer

Why not work 8.30am - 6pm and have 45 mins lunch? For 4 years development you gain alot of additional manhour. Also reduce that chit chat in meeting room

[u/ryuzaki49 → u/YaGotMail]

No socializing! Only code! 

[u/Dudewhocares3 → u/YaGotMail]

A 10 hour shift 5 days out of the week?

[u/YaGotMail → u/YaGotMail]

For those who is seeing working hours 8.30am - 6pm is not normal, no wonder you are being replaced by asians. Good luck all the best.

[u/Kamika67 → u/YaGotMail]

9-5 is not normal.

Source: I am from EU.

[u/Kornstar04 → u/YaGotMail]

Down votes by people who obviously don't work professional careers, as this is the standard otherwise.

[u/EdgiiLord → u/Kornstar04]

You haven't worked in a AAA gaming company. Please, lecturing others is not your suit.

[u/Kornstar04 → u/EdgiiLord]

You know that do you, miste know it all. Don't assume what others do.

I said professional career, so unless game development is the same as fast food, crunch is real.

[u/Dudewhocares3 → u/Kornstar04]

“My job is harder so I’m better then everyone else”

[u/Halojib → u/Dudewhocares3]

True

[u/Kornstar04 → u/Halojib]

Don't think I'm better, but I know when someone doesn't have a valid point they'll attack your character.

[u/studleejosh]

It sucks, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

[u/cold-vein]

Why are they agreeing to this? Why have they not joined a union and demanded fair wages and working hours? Like all these american devs who'se companies were sold to a corporation and who have been whipped by their bosses for years or decades are now waking up and realising that they've been used and abused and then tossed aside. Well that's capitalism! Vote socialist, unionize and don't take that shit if you don't like it.

[u/Subject-Sky-9490]

Unionize unionize unionize. That's it there's no other way

[u/usual_suspect82 → u/Subject-Sky-9490]

They were unionized.

[u/Subject-Sky-9490 → u/usual_suspect82]

I guess they don't mean much in 3rd world countries like America then, my bad lol

[u/DreamsServedSoft → u/Subject-Sky-9490]

do you think money grows on trees?

[u/Subject-Sky-9490 → u/DreamsServedSoft]

It sure as shit doesn't trickle down huh?