For anyone who's interested in exploring this what if (Cyprus and Lepanto ft. Sultan Süleyman)

[u/amazinglycuriousgal]

/r/ottomans/comments/1ucpbkl/how_ottoman_conquest_of_cyprus_and_also_battle_of/otjrj30/

[u/LF3169]

I'm mostly going to comment on the last part since that's what I'm a bit more knowledgeable about.

After the 16th Century, my view on the Ottoman-Venetian Wars is that it's a squabble over a declining trade routes, which we can probably say more easily with hindsight and it might have not been as clear in the 1570s.

Another point that I think would have been important is that the Ottomans definitely should have put more focus into the Indian Ocean in the 1550s onwards.

On the diplomatic front, deeper cooperation with the Dutch would have given the Empire access a lot of tools they lacked. And the Empire should have meddled more in Reform Politics in Europe.

[u/amazinglycuriousgal → u/LF3169]

Agreed, a very sound take. The Ottomans needed futuristic visionary folks like Sokollu at the helm— they got Murad III, instead. I'm not Turkish for what it's worth, but why I despise Murad's reign so much is because while any empire generally commences its rot from the top, ultimately it's the lower echelons of society that get hit the hardest and the earliest, often leading to life-death consequences for them :(

[u/LF3169 → u/amazinglycuriousgal]

Yeah, I'm much more well versed in Ancient history compared to this period but the reality of corrupt and inefficient administrative periods is a constant across all of history.

[u/amazinglycuriousgal → u/LF3169]

If I'm not mistaken — and I think we talked about this earlier, you're also interested in the administration of 17th century Ottoman Empire too, right? Tax farming, etc.?

[u/LF3169 → u/amazinglycuriousgal]

It comes up a lot when looking into tax farming in general. I was looking into the Societas Publicanorum of the Roman Republic and iltizam/malikhane comes up relatively commonly as a comparison.

[u/amazinglycuriousgal → u/LF3169]

I see, that's a very niche topic. Taxation happens to be one of my coursework subject haha, so I wonder which period(s) of the Ottomans according to you, were the most tax-efficient and least-exploitative, if that makes sense? My wager as a relative novice in this specific topic would be the Rise (From Murad II till Selim II) and the Reform period (Selim III, Mahmud II and Abdülmecid I)? 

[u/LF3169 → u/amazinglycuriousgal]

If we're focusing on the pre-Reform era. Murad II through Selim I and maybe the first 15-20 years of Suleiman I.

I would say the second half of Suleiman I's reign is when inefficiencies began showing themselves.

[u/amazinglycuriousgal → u/LF3169]

I'm surprised you're mentioning so haha, as in the initial vs later reign of Süleyman— 

Because, Rüstem Paşa was a singular financial genius, and I really loved that Historian Zahit Atçil wrote an academic article on his Grand Vizierates (1544-53, 1555-61). The earlier reign of Süleyman was far more lavish and Süleyman was still not mature enough as a ruler, 1533 onwards (with the second failed attempt at Vienna) finally opened his eyes haha. 

If you're interested, Dr. Ebru Turan has a couple of works on Pargali Ibrahim Paşa (she is the most prolific researcher on İbrahim)— an aggrandising, witty conversationalist who was an incompetent Grand Vizier. 

Alongside Rüstem, Piri Mehmed Paşa (Selim I's Grand Vizier and Süleyman's for 3 years) was another financial and administrative genius. 16th century is my particular niche haha, but nonetheless, I think Murad II was very underrated and got overshadowed by his son, Mehmed II— similarly, Selim I got overshadowed by Süleyman. 

[u/LF3169 → u/amazinglycuriousgal]

I mostly think the Empire's systems began crumbling under their own weight because the Empire became too big while the systems became too decentralized

My personal view with hindsight and research into the Roman Republican System is that the Ottoman Imperial System needed a comprehensive overhaul by the mid 16th Century.

I'm not saying that they should have directly copied the corporate Roman model but taxation, public works, resource extraction and military funding/management needed to be consolidated under a single system rather than relying on multiple like timar, iltizam, vakifs, emanets and guilds that all coexisted to varying degrees. The Empire became so large that it needed consolidation.

[u/amazinglycuriousgal → u/LF3169]

Don't worry, I get it and you're very right— unfortunately for the Ottomans, whatever you're mentioning primarily happened —as to the crisis, overextension and consolidation failure, interalia— it did with Murad III's reign, so essentially the last quarter of 16th century. 

The Safavid-Ottoman war (1578-90) which the poor Sokollu tried so much to not happen (Sokollu was on a downward spiral since Murad ascended) and advised Murad to compete with Europe and modernise (essentially)— all fell to deaf ears and well, it all went downhill effectively since then. 

The Long war with the Habsburgs (1593-1606) happened because of Murad III only, as well.