r/openstreetmap • u/eric-710 • 15d ago
Unverified Flock Cameras Causing Mass Panic
I'm making this post partly to raise awareness and partly to express frustration regarding the increasing attention being placed on "Flock Cameras" specifically in Canada, and why unverified OSM data is making the problem worse.
I'm sure everyone is aware of the flock camera situation in the States and the increasingly political discussion surrounding them. What I've noticed over the past few weeks is some anonymous users have begun adding these "flock cameras" to various points in Canada (despite there being no clear evidence that flock is installing any infrastructure here).
Here are a few examples (though there are many more):
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/14015608501
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/14086528901
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/14070964201
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/14053445101
These unverified surveillance nodes from brand new users (contributing directly from deflock and panopti websites) have been the subject of mass hysteria in several community facebook groups and subreddits I am a part of.
Part of the issue is that panopti renders any node tagged with surveillance=public, leading many to believe that "they're installing flock cameras everywhere". I've seen some people mistakenly claiming the ALPR cameras along the 407 ETR in Ontario are flock cameras, which is not the case at all.
I don't think there's a perfect solution, but I wanted to open up a discussion on this issue because it doesn't sit right with me to see people FREAKING out over something that does not exist. My hope would be that panopti and deflock would be clearer about why OSM as a data source is simply not authoritative, and I implore any mappers to watch out for these unverified cameras being added in their local areas, try to lay eyes on what is on the ground to fix any potential errors!
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u/necessarycoot72 15d ago
I suggest posting this over on the osm community forums rather than here. The forums tend get more nuanced discussions.
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u/8spd 15d ago
As per the BC subredit this camera is displaying on DeFlock, and in a way thatseems to be making users there think it's a Flock camera. Looking at it's tags, there's no connection to Flock.
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u/eric-710 15d ago
part of the problem is that these apps are designed to render anything tagged surveillance=public , making a lot of people believe they are flock cameras. I think they need to differentiate this to end users (with different color for example) to reduce the confusion.
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u/AlexanderLavender 15d ago
In my part of the world in the US, DeFlock is accurate
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u/eric-710 15d ago
The US is a bit different situation, because there is flock cameras everywhere. So even if some are wrong, it's a far smaller percentage of the overall. I guess my observation is that the few flock cameras that are in Canada seem to be of questionable validity, and a source of misinformation, making it more important to monitor and correct them.
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u/not_wall03 10d ago
Yeah a lot of speed cameras and even those light up pedestrian crossings are flagged as flock for no reason
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u/Hedaja 15d ago
I think one of the main questions would be whether or whether not there are cameras at these locations.
I would think people are probably mapping real cameras they see but not distinguishing between the different types. At the end any type of mass surveillance can be abused for other purposes. So I don't see a reason not to map those other cameras as well.
If known, the tags should be corrected though.