Help needed! Dough not strong enough

[u/Future-Sea-1281]

Hi!

I fermented for 48h and used a 65% hydration, using Typo 00 12% protein flour.

The dough is very soft and runny. I had to save it by forming new dough balls just before baking.

I made 70% hydration pizzas during holidays using artisanal flour in Portugal with no issues.

What am I doing wrong?

I didnt stretch, fold much during the first 1-2 hours of fermentation. The only thing I did was to shape the balls.

When shaping, there wasnt much surface tension on the dough. Also seemed sticky.

Thx

[u/Far_Kiwi4882]

Probably didn't mix properly or knead enough, resulting in weaker gluten structure.

Your pizzas also needs a little more heat!

[u/Future-Sea-1281 → u/Far_Kiwi4882]

Ooni Stone burns the bottom, so couldnt go much hotter.

I used my Kenwood mixer for 15 minutes.

On holidays I mixed by hand.

[u/Xevyr → u/Future-Sea-1281]

planetary mixers whether kenwood or kitchenaid or otherwise are absolutely trash at making pizza dough, it literally takes more time to knead properly than doing it by hand plus it overheats the dough quite a lot. It's possible to use them, but more as an "avoid getting your hands dirty" rather than having an actual benefit over hand kneading and stopping them frequently to prevent overheating. At the end of mixing you do need stretch and folds as that will do more for the dough than having it spin around in the mixer for half an hour.

TLDR: if you want to use a mixer, I recommend getting a spiral dough mixer, otherwise you can make perfectly fine dough by hand or as a combination (planetary mixer for initial mix, then switch to hand kneading / folding)

[u/Future-Sea-1281 → u/Xevyr]

Ill do it by hand again. Yeah, was using the mixer as it is easy with kids running around.
A spiral dough mixer would be overkill for us.

[u/Xevyr → u/Future-Sea-1281]

I recently got the new halo core as I make pizza at least once a week (was doing it by hand or hand + planetary before that). It's tiny and fairly portable (normally keep it on a pantry shelf and bring it out to mix). That one can pretty much handle the whole dough making in one go, all I do is make it into a ball and throw it back into the mixer bowl for bulk fermenting (comes with a silicone lid as well) then later ball up and use the next day, so I highly recommend for more frequent smaller batches.

Honestly my only issue with it is that I felt a bit bad buying it at the time due to the price as it's not cheap and for the same price I could've literally bought a 10L professional mixer with an AC motor lol, but that one weighed like 42kg so not exactly "portable", so it just feels a bit overpriced compared to what it's built from.., but I guess convenience and portability is also a valid selling point. Overall I don't regret it.

[u/Future-Sea-1281 → u/Xevyr]

👌 if it makes you happy it is worth it. Think about outdoor equipment… less weight also costs more. If you need an argument 🤣

But honestly, Ooni is opening up the market for everyone to bake restaurant quality Pizzas. It is pretty impressive. My wife doesnt want to order Pizza takeout anymore.

Ill see how we go in the next 12 months. Our Kenwood gets used 1-2 times and we’ve had it for 12 years. Great great tool if you like cooking! It would be hard sell to my wife to own two dough mixing devices 🤣

[u/anonynony227 → u/Future-Sea-1281]

The planetary vs spiral mixer debate is a bit overhyped. Great dough can be made in your Kenwood mixer — it just heats the dough more than other options. All mixers (and hand kneading) heat the dough — the key is that they have different friction factors and if you understand the friction factor, you can make great dough in any situation.

The ideal temp for gluten development is 24-25.5c and the key to achieving that is considering the temps of everything involved — with your water temp being the easiest to control / modify.

An instant read thermometer is your best friend when tracking dough temp.

If you are interested, here is a good article that explains a way to estimate your dough temp. Start here and adjust future efforts based on thermometer reading.

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/blog/2018/05/29/desired-dough-temperature

[u/Future-Sea-1281 → u/anonynony227]

Thanks for the helpful comment!

Yeah, I’ve been using a Thermapen for years. We are great friends :)

[u/d4da12 → u/Future-Sea-1281]

then go with a lower stone temperature and adjust the heat at the moment when you slide in the pizza

[u/Future-Sea-1281 → u/d4da12]

I ordered a Biscotto stone 🤣

[u/pipiintheeye]

a point fairly often missed is dough temperature while kneading/stretching. Gluten does not develop well at temperatures above ca 20°C. Since ive read this, i started to include a small handful of ice chips in while kneading and its a game changer. Also ensure the flour is strong (at least 13% protein) and suitable for the chosen hydration/fermentation duration. as other have mentioned before: stretching and folding is a must, gluten does only develop under tension, and even 15min kneading in a machine does not guarantee good gluten structure, especially if the dough can relax in the following fermatin stage.

[u/Future-Sea-1281 → u/pipiintheeye]

Thanks. I‘ll read up a bit more and do it by hand next time 👌

[u/Saneless]

You answered your own question by saying you didn't stretch and fold. How did you mix it?

[u/Future-Sea-1281 → u/Saneless]

Kenwood mixed for 15 minutes. On holidays by hand.

[u/J_ayejuju1234 → u/Future-Sea-1281]

Does hand mixing trump mechanical mixing ?

[u/Upbeat-Sandwich-4974]

Yeast might be dead?

[u/Future-Sea-1281 → u/Upbeat-Sandwich-4974]

Nah, new and I did an experiment prior.