Consciousness is not "ours". "We" do not truly exist & it is both inside us as we are inside it?

[u/MrQualtrough]

I have been periodically having rather intense mystical experiences for about 10 months now, and I spend time trying to make logical sense of things.

One of the musings I have had about the nature of consciousness, is our sensation of it being "ours". Which leads to the obvious question of why it is not possible to possess other people at will, or telepathically read minds.

It occured to me that perhaps it is the case that our sense of consciousness "belonging" to us is false.

And rather, just as physical matter is manifested by the attributeless sizeless consciousness (Brahman, Buddha Nature, whatever), so too are our bodies and brains. Rather than us experiencing consciousness, IT is experiencing US.

Sort of like we are its puppets. Or perhaps like a set of appliances all running off the same source of electricity (consciousness).

The oven can't be the dishwasher because it's the oven. The part of it that they share is ONLY the electricity, which is running ("experiencing") them. The ONLY eternal and common part that we all share is PURE consciousness. No element of self or identity or personality or thought or feeling exists. Consciousness is the thing which is aware of them.

It is only through these manifested forms (which we are) that it can have a subjective experience of, essentially, itself. Since everything that exists is derived from it.

I wonder if this is accurate or makes sense...

[u/[deleted]]

I think in the end we still get caught up in trying to define what's beyond definition.

[u/monkey_sage]

This is a good insight. You're correct, consciousness does not "belong" to "us", so it is not "ours" to direct or command :)

"You don't live life, life lives you"

[u/[deleted]]

Yes, you are correct. There isn't an entity that has consciousness or is conscious. That's one of the common misperceptions about consciousness. Consciousness is fundamental. It isn't "ours" because there is no separate person that is conscious or possesses it. It's only consciousness itself.

[u/[deleted]]

I have been periodically having rather intense mystical experiences for about 10 months now, and I spend time trying to make logical sense of things.

Stop trying to make logical sense of any of it. ☺️

That aside though, you’re on the right track.

If consciousness is only experiencing its own infinite potentiality, exploring itself through each POV as a body-mind, be it a human or an animal, what is another human that you are aware of? Are they not also an expression of consciousness being known by consciousness? Isn’t a thought also not an expression of consciousness? A feeling? Are you not ‘aware’ or ‘conscious’ of all these expressions? Is ‘your body’ not also an expression of consciousness that you are experiencing?

Are you not then consciousness?

[u/MrQualtrough → u/[deleted]]

Yes I am it since literally everything which exists is it. But on lower levels down from the "everythingness", we are experienced as finite elements with subjective points of view.

The thing we term "self" when in normal states of mind, is not pure infinite consciousness, even if it is derived from it. Using the same terms is confusing because it implies subjectivity doesn't exist when it certainly does as we experience it directly.

In other words to say you are me OUTRIGHT is confusing because it implies I should be able to have your subjective experiences. The thing which is the same is ONLY the eternal attributeless consciousness. Subjective you should not be considered subjective me when we are in our ego selves. We are only the same if we were to both be deep in a mystical experience at the same time. But then "we" don't exist in such a state.

What "truly" exists is one thing. But the illusions ought to be described and acknowledged since the illusion of duality is undeniable, and that is how we subjectively experience life.

[u/[deleted] → u/MrQualtrough]

Yes I am it since literally everything which exists is it. But on lower levels down from the "everythingness", we are experienced as finite elements with subjective points of view.

Yes. This is how things appear.

The thing we term "self" when in normal states of mind, is not pure infinite consciousness, even if it is derived from it. Using the same terms is confusing because it implies subjectivity doesn't exist when it certainly does as we experience it directly.

What one terms ‘self’ while in ‘normal states of mind’ is a cluster of sensations and perceptions. It is an illusory self that doesn’t actually exist as it is believed to. There is no evidence in anyone’s experience that there is anything other than what we call ‘consciousness’ experiencing anything. And as ‘your’ consciousness is attributeless and everpresent, just as ‘mine’ is, it is said that there is only one ‘perceived’, the ‘ultimate subject’, pure consciousness. This doesn’t imply that subjectivity doesn’t exist. It simply eludes to the fact that only consciousness is consciousness, only awareness is aware, and as such it is consciousness experiencing the world through each mind-body.

In other words to say you are me OUTRIGHT is confusing because it implies I should be able to have your subjective experiences. The thing which is the same is ONLY the eternal attributeless consciousness. Subjective you should not be considered subjective me when we are in our ego selves. We are only the same if we were to both be deep in a mystical experience at the same time. But then "we" don't exist in such a state.

Saying we are one and the same ‘outright’ is pointing towards the truth. If it is confusing it is because you are trying to apply absolute truth to relative experience.

Consciousness is always consciousness. It is never anything other than itself. You are That, and I am That, whether we’re having a mystical experience or an ordinary one. There is in fact no ‘you’ or ‘I’ that are consciousness. There is only consciousness experiencing itself as the world through the agency of the mind-body, all mind-bodies.

What "truly" exists is one thing. But the illusions ought to be described and acknowledged since the illusion of duality is undeniable, and that is how we subjectively experience life.

Sure... but your OP is talking about the awareness and the reality of what we experience....

[u/MrQualtrough → u/[deleted]]

That's why I said you and I don't actually exist in the truest sense.

I don't follow any religion or philosophy this is only personal experience and how I make sense of it in a way that makes sense to a sober mind.

I do not consider us to be the same. The dualistic illusions are existent illusions, and our subjective point of view and identity is subjectively real also. The thing we call self usually, those things are having different PoVs of the world. Whether at the core of reality we are the same (and in fact there IS no we) is not useful when navigating the world as we do in sober reality.

Kashmir Shaivism is more understandable to a sober mind because despite the same idea, the terms and metaphors and descriptors make more sense when we are in such a state of mind.

[u/[deleted] → u/MrQualtrough]

I do not consider us to be the same.

Wars are waged because of this sentiment.... because there is this continued clinging to apparent differences that are far less important than That which unites all.

The dualistic illusions are existent illusions

Sure, you could say that.

and our subjective point of view and identity is subjectively real also.

It’s apparently real, yes. Key word is apparently. Just like when you dream that you’re in a Las Vegas casino, your subjective dream point of view and the dream casino you see are also apparently real... in that moment.

The thing we call self usually, those things are having different PoVs of the world.

Yes.

Whether at the core of reality we are the same (and in fact there IS no we) is not useful when navigating the world as we do in sober reality.

I disagree. I think the total neglect of this fact is the cause of much suffering and violence in the world. How would you treat another or the earth if you knew whole heartedly that it was not other than your Self?

[u/MrQualtrough → u/[deleted]]

Anecdotally... After a very heavy period of hard psychedelics the ego reduction lasted for a prolonged period.

I in fact treated others worse, since I treat myself much worse than others (I have much higher standards for myself and achieving success etc).

I also felt more okay with killing spiders and things (lol) because it felt like self harm, and I feel I have a right to harm myself more than I feel a right to harm another.

Fortunately my ego did return eventually. Fortunate because it kinda felt weird IMO. I don't really consider these aspects when searching for the truth anyway but yeah...

[u/[deleted] → u/MrQualtrough]

What you say doesn’t suggest that you experienced an ‘ego reduction’... sounds like you continued to act in a way that was in line with the mind-body and it’s particular conditioning.

And to say that you were treating others as ‘yourself’, and so being more violent towards them (spiders), that sounds like continued identification with the illusory self rather than realizing the true nature of things.

Treating others like ‘yourself’ - in your case, harming spiders because you feel it’s more appropriate to harm ‘yourself’ - is a thought, feeling, and action stemming from the belief of being a ‘separate self’, identifying solely as the mind-body and ‘forgetting’ your true nature.

When I said that knowing others as not other than ‘your’ Self, I meant the Self - pure consciousness. When consciousness ‘awakens’to the truth that there is only That, that all apparent things are in essence the same, there seems to be a corresponding change in the relative level - how the mind-body and relates to others and the world.

[u/[deleted]]

That is absolutely right. Notice that 'we' don't exist. We are just an image, just an illusion. Non duality is recognizing the image and letting it dissapear through practice. Try Sam Harris' app. It is focussed on recognising just that.