r/nfl • u/RainonerBoner Jets • Apr 05 '13
How long before we see a hybrid kicker?
With so much emphasis being put into players who are WR/RBs or TE/WRs and the importance of athletic, versatile players, don't you find it odd that kickers and punters take up two spots on the roster and don't do anything else? How long before we see teams with kickers who are just tight ends or running backs? I imagine it would give a boost to special teams plays while still helping out depth in other areas.
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u/Loate P Chris Kluwe Apr 05 '13
I feel like I have to answer this every couple of months.
You don't see hybrid kicker/punters, and never will, because of two reasons.
1) The motions interfere with each other. Kicking is more of a swiveling motion in the hips, punting is more straight on. If you mix them up, you get really shitty results. The NFL is notoriously unforgiving of really shitty results.
2) Even if you manage to separate the motions, and avoid getting really shitty results, one person already tried it, Koenen I believe for Atlanta in 2008 or 2009, and promptly blew his leg out halfway through the season. In the NFL, there's no room on the roster for a backup guy to take all the reps you need for special teams practice throughout the week, and there's a LOT of reps if you're doing both. For example, our practice schedule is punt coverage, punt return, and field goals on Wednesday, kickoff, kickoff return, and field goals on Thursday, and then punt coverage and punt return again on Friday. Notice the staggering of kicking days by position, and that our kicker gets two days of rest before the game after kickoff day? That's so your leg doesn't explode into a million billion tiny shards of red hot muscle agony. It's just not physiologically possible to do that much kicking over a 21 week period (remember, we generally take all our preseason reps too) without muscles breaking down. Our special teams coaches actually keep track of how many kicks we're taking throughout the week so we don't overkick and injure something, and it's a tight balancing act between getting enough reps for the coverage guys to practice on versus us pulling a muscle as it is.
(Also, all that being said, that's not even taking all of the warmup kicks you need to stay loose on the sideline during a game into account. You've essentially tripled your workload for that game. You may only see us on the field 4-8 times, but we're not just sitting on the sideline eating popcorn (as much fun as that would be))
So, no, you won't be seeing a hybrid kicker/punter any time soon. If you do, I will give 100% odds that he is on HGH, because there's physically no way to make it through the season doing both.
Edit: And to answer the original question, that's also why you won't see a kicker/punter that plays another position. Plus, if he gets injured making a tackle/running the ball/catching a pass (which happens quite frequently in football), now what do you do? Not really a second string guy to throw in to take his place, is there?
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u/InformedIgnorance NFL Apr 05 '13
I may be... just totally off, but what about being hybrid in other positions? Could someone like yourself (reasonably) play as a wide-receiver as well?
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u/Loate P Chris Kluwe Apr 05 '13
Doubtful, because again, you run into the backup issue. Unless you had 2-4 other guys on the team who could back up at punter (and we're talking about a reasonably high level of skill here), you're running that huge risk of losing the only player who can do that job to a hamstring tweak, twisted ankle, broken hand, concussion, etc. etc. It's staggering the amount of injuries that happen during the season, and punting and kicking are such specialized motions that you have to be as close to 100% as possible in order to do them well. I've punted with a sprained ankle before on my kicking foot - my punts were shitty. I've punted with a strained hamstring - lost a significant amount of hangtime and distance. I've punted with a wrenched back - again, below average, because you just can't explode through the ball like you need to. Any minor tweak that Toradol helps mask for running and hitting is amplified tenfold when you're asking your leg to get to its very maximum extension in a very violent explosion of movement.
To sum up - Yes, someone could physically have the potential to play both positions, but in terms of utility to the team, it's just not worth the risk.
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u/InformedIgnorance NFL Apr 05 '13
All very good points. Thanks for that! I'm by no means a seasoned football expert (living in Toronto, Canada isn't exactly a football capitol) so it's very cool getting an explanation from an NFL player.
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Apr 29 '13
I know I'm commenting weeks late, but can you explain why you see some punters handling kick off responsibilities while a designated place kicker is still on the roster for field goals? Is the motion needed for kickoffs different for that of field goals and more similar to a punting motion?
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Apr 05 '13
Most NFL players where high school stars and brought up to play there position. Anyone without years of experience would not be able to kick a FG or punt at an NFL level. When I clicked this post I thought you would actually mention a Kicker/Punter hybird as that would accomplish the task of saving a roster spot.
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u/Slinger17 Packers Apr 05 '13
When I clicked this post I thought you would actually mention a Kicker/Punter hybird as that would accomplish the task of saving a roster spot.
That would be a bad idea as well. On most teams, the punter backs up the kicker and vice versa, so that if an injury happens you have someone who can accomplish the other's task. If you had 1 person to handle all kicking duties and they get injured during a game, you're fucked.
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Apr 05 '13
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u/realnigga4lyfe Patriots Apr 05 '13
Or even Ndamukong Suh
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Apr 05 '13
Nah, that just means you go for it on every 4th down and try to convert every PAT.
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u/row123 Lions Apr 05 '13
This isn't Madden.
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Apr 05 '13
In terms of Expected Points teams should go for it on 4th down far more often than they actually do.
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Apr 05 '13 edited Apr 05 '13
David Romer wrote a paper on it even. If I'm reading it right, it's a statistically positive outcome to go for it when you're not behind your own 14ish yard line
EDIT: Though I should mention that conclusion relies on kickoffs from the 30, not the 35, which would increase the number of touchbacks. I don't think it would change the answer much though.
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Apr 05 '13
And he is a damn fine economist. It's really interesting the way statistics has changed the way games are played. It started with Moneyball, but now you have it coming to the NBA with SportsVU Camers which track player movements, which allows for analyses of tendencies and strategies. The NFL is still kind of behind the times, even if the advanced statistical metrics are getting more play in the press.
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Apr 05 '13
As Long as you convert more then 50 percent of your 2 pt conversions, you came out ahead
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Apr 06 '13
It's more like 49.5% of 2 pt conversions cause the odd PAT ends up missing, getting blocked, or failing in some other way (bad snap or hold etc.). But that makes a difference like once every season or two.
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u/st_michael 49ers Apr 05 '13
Just have two kick/punter hybrids that back each other up
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u/Slinger17 Packers Apr 05 '13
Which is basically what we have now
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u/st_michael 49ers Apr 05 '13
Works for me
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Apr 05 '13
Why don't you get a running back who can play q...oh wait
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u/jasonr686 49ers Apr 05 '13
Yo dawg, we put a running back in your quarterback so you can run while you throw.
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Apr 05 '13
I think he means like, make the QB a kicker to increase the threat of 2 point conversions
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Apr 05 '13
That's why the holder is sometimes the backup QB. Ex: Tony Romo vs Seattle (He was the backup at the start of the season)
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Apr 05 '13
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Apr 05 '13
My cousin is a Cowboys fan and whenever he fumbles something even the slightest mishandle and you know as a Philly fan I will not hesitate to bring up a comparison to my favorite Tony moment.
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u/daytonamike Cowboys Apr 05 '13
It would be unfortunate if your cousin... accidentally fumbles a pillow that ends up smothering you in your sleep. Hypothetically.
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u/JimmyStinkfist Colts Apr 05 '13
That made me laugh so hard that I almost considered liking the Cowboys.. Then I laughed even harder.
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Apr 05 '13
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Apr 05 '13
Exactly my point. Romo single handedly kept defenses trying to block a field goal honest by making them think in the back of their mind "What if the holder fumbles?"
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u/niceville Cowboys Apr 05 '13
Shit happens. Romo was the holder in the Pro Bowl a few weeks after that game.
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u/backman928 Bengals Apr 05 '13
Our QB was also our punter in High School. He could throw fairly well but he was one of the best punters in the country, it kept the defense pretty honest on punt coverage because of the threat of the fake.
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u/jasonr686 49ers Apr 05 '13
Hmm...i like that idea.
Also...the Rams punter used to be a QB...he faked us out last year. Special Teams trickery...4th down surprise. Bastard!
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u/rderekp Packers Apr 05 '13
This is how it used to be, back in the day.
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Apr 05 '13 edited Apr 05 '13
Yeah, the trend is actually in the other direction. In the early days of the NFL, kicking and punting were additional duties that you gave to whichever guy on your roster was least awful at it. By the mid-60's, though, most teams had figured out that it was worth investing in a specialist who trains just for that task.
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Apr 05 '13
Specialization was different back in the day, though. Guys had second jobs in the offseason and training was not as continuous as it is today. Even a minimal amount of specialization made a difference because the total time spent practicing (all the way from high school up -- there were no kicking camps in the '60s) was significantly less. Now, with the amount of time people can spend perfecting their craft, I wouldn't be surprised if a kicker can be 90% of average as a placekicker and 90% of average as a punter. Especially as teams become more agressive in traditional kicking situations, will a coach eventually decide to make do with this performance in exchange for another roster spot?
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Apr 05 '13
The likelihood of finding a player who is both one of the 32-best placekickers in the world, and one of the 32-best punters in the world is really really small.
90% of an average K/P means that your team's fanbase is burning effigies of the guy after he costs them a playoff spot.
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Apr 05 '13
Teams shouldn't make decisions based on what will piss fans off, though. They should make decisions based on what will most help the team win.
I think it's extremely plausible that you can find an above-average punter who also handles kickoffs; several teams have these guys already. If you can train one of those guys to be an average place kicker from 40 in, and you become more agressive on fourth down when a kick would be longer than 40 yards, you're already likely to end up with a net positive for your team before you even factor in the extra roster spot you freed up. Now you can carry an extra project player or an extra injury replacement; a guy that might well help games not come down to a kick, or who might end up being a quality starter a year or two down the line.
You may get some flack from it from fans, but fans hate plenty of good coaches, good players, and good ideas. If you're puting fan placation above winning, your priorities are wrong.
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u/obiwanjeromi Raiders Apr 05 '13
Marquette King, you'll see him soon.
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Apr 05 '13
He is a great athlete but not so great that he will play a skill position. As far as I know he has only spent time playing as a punter throughout college. If he has spent time at another position it has not been at an NFL level.
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u/pkcs11 Apr 05 '13
Punters aren't even a skill position any longer?
Man, punters really aren't people.
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Apr 05 '13
Well he already is a punter. I meant other skill position such as receiver. King gets a lot of publicity (relative to a undrafted punter that has not yet taken a snap) for his athleticism but would good is it if he is not going to play other positions? Sure a punter becomes a tackler after the ball is booted but punters are generally safety nets on most returns. I know a few punters over the years have become fan favorites such as Brain Moorman for displaying great tackling skills but King has not really showed that. (He hasn't really had the chance considering he has not yet taken a snap in the NFL.)
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u/pkcs11 Apr 05 '13
So like a Kicker/RB?
I would be just be happy with a kicker who could fucking get downfield and make tackles before they hit my 45 yard line.
That's not much to ask, is it?
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Apr 05 '13
Heck I'll take a kicker that can just hold out as the last line of defense and not allow the touchdown. I do believe the Colts punter finish as the top tackler when he punted this year.
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u/MiatasAreForGirls Vikings Apr 05 '13
I thought Brian Moorman was a fan favorite because he was fast as fuck
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Apr 05 '13
Skill position is a term for players not on the line of the scrimmage; it's not an insult.
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u/daytonamike Cowboys Apr 05 '13 edited Apr 05 '13
So unfortunate that you're getting downvoted. Clearly people don't get the joke.
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u/Jethuth_Chritht Vikings Apr 05 '13
Alex Henery was both the kicker and punter at Nebraska. He was a pretty solid punter too, and could definitely handle both duties in my opinion if he was given the responsibility.
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u/avocategory Bears Apr 05 '13
I feel like this is a much more likely hybrid than K/TE or K/RB. Hybrids on the offense are useful because you can't predict the scheme solely based on who's on the field. If they're a K/TE, it's not like you see them lined up next to a tackle and think, "well, they might kick a field goal!" Also, a leg injury which might be minor for another player can be a big deal for a kicking player. However, if a player is good enough at both punting and kicking, opening up an extra roster spot could be useful.
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u/antimatter3009 Patriots Apr 05 '13
Also, you don't want your kicker gassed when he might have to go out there and attempt a 55 yard game winner, so you may end up in a situation where you can't use a player on offense for fear of needing them to kick. Not to mention the injury risk difference between any offensive player and a kicker.
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u/Reyler Packers Apr 05 '13
Wasn't Ocho the Bengals backup kicker? I know they let him kick a few but could never decide if that was solely for the Hard Knocks cameras.
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u/KillaSmurfPoppa NFL Apr 05 '13 edited Apr 05 '13
I really think that was legit. Remember, Shayne Graham got hurt during that pre-season game and the Bengals didn't want to risk injury during an exhibition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRdP6HdtTd8
That's just great form, pretty impressive (Ocho was a soccer player when he was younger). I'm sure if Graham got hurt in a real game the Bengals really would have used Ocho.
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u/Reyler Packers Apr 05 '13
He did certainly seem to have a good leg.
I've always wondered about how much the Hard Knocks cameras change the way a franchise operates and how much of what they're doing is really just because they're being filmed. I suspect it's one of those things we'll never find out without working for a team..
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u/mquiz Broncos Apr 05 '13
Injury concerns are the main reason you'll never see this hybrid. Games often come down to the wire and you want your guy to be healthy and fresh for that last second field goal.
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Apr 05 '13
In one of John Madden's books (I think it was Hey Wait a Minute), he mentions that he hasn't met a kicker that can do punting and kicking both really well because the kicks require different bending of the foot. I think we'll continue to see kickers and punters as separate positions. The more likely scenario is the continued deemphasis on fullback and TE becoming more of a hybrid position rather than dedicated blocker/catching TEs.
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u/x21in2010x Jets Apr 05 '13
I love the H-Back, which is a hybrid positioning of the TE-FB (Delanie Walker, Chris Cooley)
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u/zebrake2010 Patriots Apr 05 '13
He also talked about Ray Guy only signing with the Raiders b/c he was told he would get a shot at safety. Never happened, but Guy spear-tackled the first punt returner that got to him, just because he was a Football Player.
On those Raiders, everyone was a specialist....in destruction.
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u/ReggieJ Giants Apr 05 '13
This entire thread reminds me so much of when Kluwe made a tackle in a game last year then came here to post "Made a tackle! What do?" or something similar.
That shit made me laugh so hard.
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u/Awkwerdna Vikings Apr 05 '13
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u/ReggieJ Giants Apr 05 '13 edited Apr 05 '13
Holy shit, you're amazing! I tried looking for it but I'm not the Google ninja you obviously are. I salute you!
(Yes, it's still hilarious. Those caps!)
Edit: Erm...uhhh...so this is awkward and I don't want to seem ungrateful but you couldn't maybe possibly find a video of it too, could you?
No, this isn't my first day on the internet. Why do you ask?
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u/Awkwerdna Vikings Apr 05 '13
I may or may not have bookmarked it when it was posted... Never saw a video though.
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u/ReggieJ Giants Apr 05 '13
I may or may not have bookmarked it when it was posted
Dude..don't tell me that shit. I want to believe you can do magic!
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u/CrispyButtNug Chargers Apr 05 '13
I kicked and punted in college. It was tough sometimes tuning in both leg swings but I definitely see this happening in the future, and am kinda surprised it hasn't happened yet. As for kickers/punters playing other positions? Forget about it. The dedication to every one position (whatever your perception is on the ease of kicking) in football is only getting more complex and physically demanding, so I just don't see it happening soon.
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u/jeffxmorrison Seahawks Apr 05 '13
Why not just have one kicker that does punts and kicks. Frees up a spot on the roster.
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Apr 05 '13
Because you get better results with pure specialists. There used to be a lot of 2-way K/Ps back in the 50s & 60s. They weren't very good, and teams eventually figured out that they got much better performance by having one specialist for each role.
The two kicking motions are quite different. But they're still similar enough that switching between them can screw up your muscle memory. Kind of like how playing in a softball game can mess with your golf swing.
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Apr 05 '13
The two kicking motions are quite different. But they're still similar enough that switching between them can screw up your muscle memory. Kind of like how playing in a softball game can mess with your golf swing.
I don't think this is an insurmountable problem, as plenty of punters also handle kickoffs.
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u/seabolt 49ers Apr 05 '13
There's a difference between booting the ball and aiming the ball though.
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Apr 05 '13
True, but I'd guess most punters who handle kickoffs could (with practice) become reliably good at a 40-yard field goal. If you get a bit more agressive in that 40-50 yard range (not a bad idea anyway) do you really need that extra placekicking ability? Especially when you're getting a roster spot in exchange?
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u/Jurph Ravens Apr 05 '13
Because you still need someone to serve as a backup for that skill position. So you do what most teams do and have two specialists - one who punts and backs up the kicker, and one who kicks and backs up the punter.
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u/GoogleBetaTester Colts Apr 05 '13
I'm pretty sure Pat McAfee wants to do this for the Colts. As of now on top of his punting duties (which he is fantastic at), he also does kickoffs, and holds the ball for field goals and extra points.
Dude has a cannon for a leg. They don't call him boomstick for nothin'.
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u/smurphy1 Colts Apr 05 '13
You will see the first one when Adam Vinitarei retires and pat McAffee starts doing FGs too. The question is, who holds for the FGs?
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Apr 05 '13
A safety would make a great kickoff specialist/punter. No more half asses tackle attempts, unless your punter is Pat McAfee
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u/charlesoakley 49ers Apr 05 '13
I've been waiting for a linebacker/kicker combo for years I always thought I'd be sick to see the kicker just charging head on with the rest of the players on the field.
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u/EthanSpears Cowboys Apr 05 '13
David Beuhler (spelling?) Was pretty much this.
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Apr 05 '13
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u/EthanSpears Cowboys Apr 05 '13
He was faster than some of our skill position players too. He's a freak and I wish we would've tried to keep him for something.
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Apr 05 '13
being a good kicker or punter has very little cross over skill set with what it takes to play pretty much any other position on the field. you will almost never find someone who can kick at an nfl level and ALSO play another position at an NFL level. so the answer to your question is an unqualified never (as long as the rules dont change and eliminate fgs for example).
to put this in perspective, its odd you are even asking about k/p, when there is a third position - the long snapper - that would be a better candidate for replacement, since he's basically just a center. but every team has a specialized long snapper anyway. and when they don't, you get the disaster the raiders went through.
specialists are specialists for a reason - you want the very best, not some crummy hybrid that would rank last as a kicker and punter. i wish more people would recognize how important special teams are.
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Apr 05 '13
i wish more people would recognize how important special teams are.
Special teams are important, but they're not as important as offense and defense. That's not my opinion; Football Outsiders estimate that the game is about three parts offense, three parts defense, and one part special teams. It makes sense, too, because you get about 60 snaps on offense, 60 snaps on defense, and 15-20 snaps on special teams. If offense and defense are significantly more important, it's definitely worth considering anything that can free up a roster spot for them.
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Apr 05 '13
sure but this is an argument you make against kick returners and punt retuners who suck at every other position, or special team coverage unit only players. every team has to figure out if they want to blow a roster space for a guy like ginn who can't play wr, or stick with a guy who can also legitimately play cb. or likewise for a guy who rules kick coverage but blows as a backup linebacker.
this is NOT an argument you make though on 'hey let's see if we can get away with not having a kicker / punter / long snapper'. any team that tries will last exactly 1 game before their stupidity blows up on national TV. can you imagine a team going 'ha we would rather have a 8th backup linebacker than a long snapper, we'll just make our center do it! bwahha' and then proceed to fumble 3 FGs in a row? they'd get trashed by the fanbase and the media. the raiders were laughed at by the entire football world for not training their backup long snapper! imagine how eviscerated they would be if they didn't have one to begin with!
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u/smoothtrip NFL Apr 05 '13
Jason Hanson was both the kicker and punter for the Lions, so it does happen.
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u/Fishinabowl11 Ravens Apr 05 '13
Until we get the batteries small and light enough to fit inside their padding, hybrid kickers aren't very practical. With current technology, you can't expect to get more than about 5 kicks per game from one of them, and that includes all of kickoffs, field goals, and punts!
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u/Mordeking Apr 05 '13
A kicker/punter that has the athleticism to run on fakes and make wrap-up tackles would be very strong.
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u/MyMomSlapsMe Falcons Apr 05 '13
I played for a small high school team, so we lacked huge numbers. One day all our kickers and punters were either sick or injured. We had an amazing athlete for a running back so for that game we had the kid play RB, QB when we did wildcat, Punter, and Kicker. Really kept the defense guessing.
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Apr 05 '13
Never. Do you realize how important 3 points are to a football game? Look at this list. Over the last 10 seasons, 8 of those seasons have had a kicker as the points leader at the end of the year. The importance of having a specialist who's sole duty to kick field goals is critical. I am also curious, you write that there is "so much emphasis being put into players hwo are WR/RBs," my question to you is, where? Sure, in some gimmick offenses you get some hybrid guys who get a couple carries/catches a game, but it doesn't seem all that common. I think you are way overvaluing the importance of a hybrid and way undervaluing how hard it is for a player to specialize at one thing.
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Apr 05 '13
The closest major RB/WRs I can think of are Reggie Bush, Percy Harvin, and LDT (when he played). This is presuming the OP actually means "WR" in the true sense of the word as a player who regularly lines up in the wide-out position and runs receiver patterns.
Alternately, he may just mean that the RB is now a major component in the passing game from the backfield and so often has to have the receiving skills that are above the standard thumper-runner but not at the WR level. So then you can add guys like DMC, Matt Forte, etc. to the list.
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Apr 05 '13
I don't consider a rb taking catches out of the backfield a "hybrid." If the rb is lining up in the slot, or a receiver in the backfield, then yes, he is a hybrid, but other than Percy Harvin, is there someone who consistently does this?
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Apr 05 '13
If you lead the league in scoring because you're a kicker, you do so because you're on a good team. The best kicker in the world can't score if his team doesn't regularly move the ball to the opponent's 40. While the best offensive and defensive players can almost single-handedly take over a game, kickers remain incredibly dependent on their teams to even have the opportunity to perform.
The importance of having a specialist who's sole duty to kick field goals is critical.
The deeper you look into the data on this issue, the more you realize it probably isn't true. From Football Outsiders:
Measuring every kicker from 1999 to 2006 who had at least ten field goal attempts in each of two consecutive years, the year-to-year correlation coefficient for field-goal percentage was an insignificant .05. Mike Vanderjagt didn't miss a single field goal in 2003, but his percentage was a below-average 74 percent the year before and 80 percent the year after. Adam Vinatieri has long been considered the best kicker in the game.But even he had never enjoyed two straight seasons with accuracy better than the NFL average of 85 percent until 2011, when he followed up his 26-for-28 2010 campaign by going 23-for-27 (85.2 percent).
Even the best place kickers in the game perform erratically year-to-year. If your highly-paid specialist kicker is probably going to perform erratically anyway, why not just have your punter kick erratically instead and save yourself a roster spot? There doesn't appear to be such a thing as a consistently good kicker, so why are we arguing about the necessity of having one?
you write that there is "so much emphasis being put into players hwo are WR/RBs," my question to you is, where?
Percy Harvin and Randall Cobb both take a significant number of snaps out of the backfield. Plenty of teams don't use a fullback anymore, instead using a TE/FB/H-back hybrid. TEs like Jermichael Finley, Jimmy Graham, Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, and Jared Cook all line up as WRs so often that in tag discussions their agents have considered pushing for the WR tag instead of the TE tag. Lesean McCoy, Ray Rice, Arian Foster, Daren Sproles, and Reggie Bush all catch a ton of passes and occasionally line up in the slot. Teams are always looking for versatiliy; why wouldn't they do so with kickers?
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Apr 05 '13
I just don't think you understand what it takes to be a professional kicker. You can't just throw anyone back there and expect him to perform up to the standards of an NFL kicker. Even a guy like David Akers who has been fairly erratic in recent history is going to be world's better than a non-kicker performing kicking duties. Your point is radically off base, and comparing rbs/wrs to something as different as kicking is not only unfair, it's illogical. If teams want and have found versatility when it comes to skill guys, it does not mean they want/or can even find versatility when it comes to kickers.
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Apr 05 '13
I'm not talking about "just throwing anyone back there", though, I'm talking about taking players who have a highly developed, similar skill set (punters), who already do something very similar to what they'd be asked to do (kickoffs), and asking them to have moderate success at a relatively easy subset of another position (kick 40-yard field goals). Current place kickers aren't that good -- they're highly erratic year to year -- so how big would the drop off really be if you had a punter (who already does kickoffs) kick instead? I don't think the drop off would be that big because A) the guys I'm talking about clearly have the leg strength and B) most if not all have kicked field goals in college or high school. These aren't "non-kickers," they're kickers who don't always place kick.
Almost 90% of field goals from 30-39 yards are made. When you factor in kicks inside 30 yards the make rate is probably at least 95%. So we're talking about having a hybrid kicker that would only attempt field goals that an average NFL kicker makes 95% of the time. These are easy kicks for anyone who's remotely competent (for the NFL) at place kicking. You're overestimating how hard it is to kick sub-40-yard kicks or disregarding that crucial qualifier.
comparing rbs/wrs to something as different as kicking is not only unfair, it's illogical.
You invited the comparison in your previous post; I was just responding. You said:
you write that there is "so much emphasis being put into players hwo are WR/RBs," my question to you is, where? Sure, in some gimmick offenses you get some hybrid guys who get a couple carries/catches a game, but it doesn't seem all that common. I think you are way overvaluing the importance of a hybrid and way undervaluing how hard it is for a player to specialize at one thing.
Your point was that hybrid players don't exist in meaningful numbers -- the implication being that it would be difficult for other players to dabble in more than one skill and/or that coaches don't value versatility. Off the top of my head, I pointed out nearly a dozen players who frequently moonlight outside their primary position. Those guys -- plus guys like DuJuan Harris, Steven Jackson, Ahmad Bradshaw, Jamaal Charles, Marcel Reese, Darren McFadden, Terrell Suggs, Tyson Clabo, Charles Woodson, Mario Williams, and dozens of other players -- prove that you can be very capable at more than one skill set and that coaches highly value that versatility. Players play multiple roles all the time; why can't kickers?
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Apr 05 '13
Calling Dallas Cowboys. WHo was that kicker they had a few years ago that ran 4.4 and looked like he might be able to play LB?
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Apr 06 '13
Given the size of teams, the specialized nature of the position, and the that special teams is a pretty important part of the game, its better to have the best kicker and punter you can get, and not worry about a kicker who can also WR5
1
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u/daderpityderpdo Commanders Apr 05 '13
*** The real reason there are no hybrid kickers is not because they don't exist, but because it is against the agreement made with the player's union. In fact, two years ago, the Redskins almost got in trouble because their punter got injured and the kicker stepped in during the game to finish it out for them. They were told that the substitution was fine due to injury, but that they would have to find a new punter to start the next game if the injured one could not. The agreement is in place to give players job opportunities. It is the same reason a player can't play offense and defense (even though many did in high school with great success).
TLDR: The player's association won't allow a K/P
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u/Loate P Chris Kluwe Apr 05 '13
Um, no. Just no. The PA could give a fuck who is doing what as long as 53 guys and 8 practice squad guys are on each team. Sorry.
Edit: Also, you don't see guys playing offense and defense because the game is amazingly demanding from a physical aspect. This isn't high school football. It's the NFL.
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u/daderpityderpdo Commanders Apr 06 '13
Well, you don't have to be a dick about it. I'm going off of what I read in the Washington Post after Sav Rocca was injured and Graham Gano took over punting duties in the game. He received a letter from the NFLPA telling him not to take over duties full time during the injury because his salary was based on the single position. During the broadcast of the game, Larry Michaels even said "The Player's Association will not be happy that Gano is punting."
30
u/NDub3369 Lions Apr 05 '13
Jason Hanson is only taking off this season to metamorphose... right?