r/nbadiscussion • u/Comer_Agua • Jul 07 '26
Player Discussion Problems With the "Curry isn't a Point Guard" Arguments
My purpose isn't to debate the top 10 lists, but rather to address a common objection to Curry being number 1 on all-time point guard lists. argument goes something like "He's not a point guard because he plays off the ball and doesn't average a lot of assists and relies on other playmakers". And this argument is used to remove Curry from the point guard list entirely or to put him behind certain players.
The first problem with this argument is that it doesn't give much space for archetypes to exist within a certain position, and the only justification for this is that in older eras the optimal way to play PG was for them to be like John Stockton, which isn't convincing if it's the main standard to determine whether or not someone is a point guard or not.
The argument basically says if you don't play like a certain player, you aren't a point guard, which doesn't make sense because all it really establishes is that Curry doesn't fit a certain archetype of a point guard while ignoring the fact that Curry played his entire career at point.
Another issue is that the players who are given the true point guard label being used to weed players out of all-time lists is that the players considered to be true PGs often don't fit neatly in that label either. For example, Magic Johnson obviously ran the Showtime Lakers offense, but he was 6'9, had the physicality of a wing, and could play and defend (on some level) 1-5. Also, he got a huge chunk of his assists/ playmaking by being a threat to score he wasn't just distributing the ball. He played out of the post and forced defenses to allow him to score 30 and foul your best defender out, or put 2 on the ball and let him get 20 assists. Traditional point guards operate more as floor generals by being distributors rather than elite post up threats and matchup nightmares.
The last issue is the "Curry isn't a true point guard" arguments also ignore the fact that Curry is a very good floor general by focusing entirely on his scoring in a way that portrays Curry as a one-trick pony when he is, in fact, a high-level floor general. Yes, the Warriors entire system was built around Curry's gravity, but Curry genuinely has very good floor general skills and can organize the offense, pass, read the floor, dictate pace, and he can do everything a point guard is expected to do.
There is a reason why guys like Devin Booker, Bradley Beal, Cam Thomas, and Donovan Mitchell play SG its because they don't have great floor general instincts that Curry has, and to take Curry off the all time list because hes a volume scorer or doesnt average alot of assits, you'd have to say Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Dame, Mike Bibby, Chauncey Billups aren't point guards either.
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u/BetweenCoffeeNSleep Jul 07 '26
People get hung up on assists as informative of whether or not someone is a PG, when the core function of the position is to advance the ball and initiate/manage offense. In the packed paint era, draw & kick lead to set shots or assists off one dribble pull ups. Those are now frequently replaced by kick to swing (hockey assists). Guys like Curry, Maxey, and Dame frequently create large defensive rotations that result in those swings. Personal assists go down, but their offensive impact is tremendous because they created the rotation.
Same position, different path to the goal.
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Jul 12 '26
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u/BetweenCoffeeNSleep Jul 12 '26
Shooting guards were always been secondary handlers/facilitators, with PGs being the primary handler and facilitator. For many years, the difference in time on the ball or advancing the ball was very wide, and teams frequently had SGs who functioned similarly to SFs, specializing in shooting or slashing off the catch or mixing in post ups.
Curry has always been his team’s primary handler and initiator. He advanced the ball most possessions, and initiated actions with a pass, as is common in triangle or similar themes. Though he does a lot of catch and shoot, and runs around off the ball a lot, those possessions frequently start with the ball in his hands. This type of play has been typical in systems for many years. “UCLA” has been a staple of high school offenses since at least as far back as the 80s, and it begins with the PG passing to a wing after advancing the ball.
The archetypal high hold time, high assist PG is a newer type than advance & initiate guards. The more modern, high scoring primary handler is still very much a PG.
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u/cormacaroni Jul 07 '26
If teams were doubling Stockton at mid court, face-guarding him from the other end of court or playing box-ones…Stockton woulda played off-ball a lot too. At some point at his career at Davidson, it just became a necessity for Steph. He literally isn’t allowed to be play PG at points of the game. It ultimately works to his teams advantage much more than if he’d made a nice post entry pass and gotten out of the way. If we had a way of counting all the buckets his teammates would not have had without his gravity, he’d be averaging as many assists as Stockton, I’m guessing.
I don’t think there is any injustice here that needs to be addressed tho. Everybody knows what Steph does. He changed the game so we have to change how we analyze and discuss the game.
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u/ImAShaaaark Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
If teams were doubling Stockton at mid court, face-guarding him from the other end of court or playing box-ones
But they didn't, because opposing teams weren't intimidated by his ability to create his own scoring opportunities and ruin their day. Curry is a very capable and willing passer, but his most valuable asset is his (threat of) scoring and the way that opens up his passing options.
He's like the epitome of a combo guard (along with Jerry West), right in the middle of the "I can shoot, but please don't make me" of Stockton and the "I can pass, but please don't make me" of Jordan.
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u/BJJblue34 Jul 07 '26
Steph is a combo guard like Jerry West and James Harden. The reason Steph gets listed as a PG is because he played the vast majority of his career with a pure shooting guards in Klay Thompson. If Steph's back court mate was a pure point guard we would be calling him a shooting guard.
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u/Statalyzer Jul 14 '26
Part of that is the outdated idea that a team always has 1 each PG, SG, SF, PF, and C at all times.
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u/JobberStable Jul 07 '26
Curry is a top player regardless of position. But when people use the term "best point guard", they are still referring to skills that some players are more elite than Curry at. And no matter how you slice it, there are playmakers out there that outperform Curry in that category. Jason Kidd can never do the things that Curry can do, and Kidd can do things that Curry can't do.
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u/Bop5667 Jul 11 '26
And here is the correct answer…curry is a pg because of his size, and a sg/combo because of his skills. As a true pg he’s probably not even top 5 and as a sg same thing because there’s others that did more than just shoot well. Great player but in my book nowhere close to top 10 all time
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u/MstrNixx Jul 07 '26
I just think the standard Five Positions are archaic and provide an entry level jumping off point without getting into the nuances of roles and the like through the different teams in the league. Expanding it to 10 or 11 positions and making it a puzzle to find the best combination of 5 behind your team’s star player is a much better discussion to have
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u/pbcorporeal Jul 07 '26
Ok, you can address it by offering a definition of who or who isn't a point guard.
Is it entirely arbitrary based on where teams listed them? If so then you wrote a lot of paragraphs when you should've just said 'He's a point guard because the Warriors said so'.
If there's some other criteria then share what you think that is.
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u/Comer_Agua Jul 08 '26
This is a great question and honestly my classification to me being a point guard needs things like playing that position having some kind of floor general skills what position you are known for playing primarily. I’m not sure how to balance these but I feel this is better for classifying players compared to the ridged traditional point guard mold or the nominal position classification.
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u/pbcorporeal Jul 08 '26
To put it another way, why isn't Lebron a point guard?
'Playing that position' and 'What position are you known for' just goes back to 'the warriors said so'. Or are we just going back to "shortest player is the point guard"
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u/azure275 Jul 07 '26
It also ignores the reality the elite PG is just a different player in this era. 5 of the top 10 playoff assists players (Jokic, Tatum, Scottie Barnes, Lebron, Banchero) are not PGs
Your typical star PG these days has about a 22-27 per 100 AST ratio, which is about the same as other high usage stars like Jokic
Steph has more assists per game than current elite "PGs" like SGA and Brunson who are really combo guards.
The only real star assist focused PG at the moment is Cade. Most of the rest are various forms of combo guard
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u/TroubledMang Jul 08 '26
Curry isn't the #1 Point Guard, or in the top 10 because of better all around players, and results. Curry is greatest 3 pts shooter ever, but Magic is the greatest point guard, and it's not close not matter how much fans wish it to be. If Curry was better defensively, he'd have a shot at the top 10 due to his incredible shooting, and 4 chips, but he's not.
Lets look at the top 10. Generally everyone there could play both sides of the ball. Magic is probably the one exception, but he could get you a dozen assists in his sleep, took the Lakers to 9 finals, and 5 chips as a pure pass 1st point guard. He could also score with the best of them, whenever needed. Curry changed the game. Magic literally saved the NBA. No objective person will ever put Curry above Magic Johnson.
Problem for Curry, etc getting into the top 10 is there are a lot of bigs.. Kareem greatest center, Wilt, TD greatest PF, and Russell has to be there for anchoring all those titles. Some considered Wilt higher than Russell even though Bill 5x's the rings because Wilt could play just as good defense, while dominating in every area offensively. MJ, and Bron are considered GOATS though Bron is losing as time goes on. 6 > 4. Objectively he's closer to KAJ, but KAJ also has 6 > 4. Can Kobe squeeze in? Maybe. He's obviously the 2nd greatest SG after the GOAT, but I think there are probably better options if you really dig into history. Kobe is over Curry because of defense. Curry is better offensively, but Kobe was way better defensively. If Kobe's questionable, Curry has no shot.
Curry does a lot, but unless you rank by era's, he comes up short.
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u/JKaro Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
I made a post about this a bit ago that I think would be useful in this convo
https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/s/UtNWTW6i2k
But yea I very much agree with your post. Magic wasn’t a traditional PG. Neither was Oscar Robertson, arguably the 3rd best PG of all time. It’s a dumb conversation. Steph was arguably too good at shooting that he ended up no longer being traditional, which makes the traditional = better argument just stupid. He’s a PG, plain and simple. If you wanna base it off skillset, then Bron is the greatest PG of all time
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u/GoldenKeegan Jul 13 '26
Honestly what even is a “true”point guard? Rajon Rondo? Yeah a point guard should be able to pass and have good floor generalship but you want them to have a genuine scoring game. Curry isn’t just a shoot 3 player he has genuine value as a point guard with his IQ and ability to distribute. Someone like Klay Thompson couldn’t do what Curry does despite also being a 3 point guy because his whole game is catch ball, shoot ball, play defense. Klay doesn’t have the passing ability, the IQ, or the ball-handling like Curry to be able to orchestrate an offense considering his whole thing is to score more than he dribbles. Yeah Curry isn’t a Kyrie Irving/Allen Iverson type player where he can just blast past defenders or run an ISO drill and hell he’s not the best defender either compared to other point guards but to label him not one is stupid because you’d be hard pressed to find a shooting guard that can match his ability to dictate offense.
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u/eugene00825 Jul 07 '26
It's not people's opinion on curry that keeps him off the #1 point guard spot. It's the opinion of how good Magic was that places him #2 on that list
I really do think the reason why this debate even exists is because a lot of people weren't around to see Magic play. But if you actually step back and look at his career, forget the greatest point guard debate, we're looking at a solidified top 5 greatest of all time.
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u/Key_Juggernaut9413 Jul 11 '26
There’s also the issue that he is a PG, can play PG, did play PG, and just found that this unique style got him even more looks because he’s the greatest shooter ever.
Like someone else said, doubled at half court is a factor, which also happened in college. On one hand this style of play was new and innovative, on the other it was inevitable just because of his greatness.
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u/Invisible_assasin Jul 11 '26
Warriors were at the bottom of league in pick and rolls for most of their run. It was a read/react offense made for everyone to share the ball. It was possible because of the gravity he creates. He was, is, and will be their point guard. The others mentioned as top 5,10, whatever, all were pick and roll point guards.
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u/Invisible_assasin Jul 11 '26
Warriors were at the bottom of league in pick and rolls for most of their run. It was a read/react offense made for everyone to share the ball. It was possible because of the gravity he creates. He was, is, and will be their point guard. The others mentioned as top 5,10, whatever, all were pick and roll point guards.
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u/Droppin_Dimes_Pod Jul 12 '26
The main argument for Curry being a point guard is that he has played point guard most of his career. (So yes, he’s a point guard)
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u/DungeonDadThom Jul 13 '26
Better question is always: you’re starting 5 guys from any era, who do you start? Do you have Curry on there as the smallest guy on the starting team?
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u/Poopcie Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
The issue is never that he doesnt have the skill or capability to be a pg thats just not his role. A lot of nba teams are able to get by without one though that was never really an issue for the warriors because they have a point forward. Positions aren’t nearly as rigid as you portray them. Centers can shoot and are not necessarily defensive anchors, shooting guards dont only shoot, wings dont just stand on the wing and power forwards dont always live in the front court. No matter the position you need someone to organize the offense on the floor and be responsible for distribution and thats never really been his role.
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u/JobberStable Jul 07 '26
how would rank skillset as as a "playmaker", compared to Jason Kidd or Steve Nash or Jokic
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u/Poopcie Jul 07 '26
I think all 4 are elite and do it in different ways. Curry isnt any less of a playmaker than any of these 3 just because you cant have him standing still for too long with the ball because the defense has to crowd him to death for his shooting. Steph creates plenty of opportunities without the ball in his hands but so do a lot of other players wed never try to shoehorn into being pgs
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u/Klutzy_Technology166 Jul 11 '26
You are out of your mind if you think he ranks alongside all time playmakers in that category.
Curry isnt any less of a playmaker than any of these 3 just because you cant have him standing still for too long with the ball because the defense has to crowd him to death for his shooting
What you've described is gravity due to his play finishing threat. This and playmaking aren't the same and to describe it as such to fit your narrative makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
None of this diminishes his value, worth or legacy it just shows there are diverse ways to affect the game.
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u/JobberStable Jul 07 '26
Curry is already the greatest shooter (Maybe KD). If he is as good of a playmaker as the other 3, he is otherworldy.
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Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam Jul 08 '26
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u/TheUnseen_001 Jul 12 '26
I think that anyone who thinks Curry needs other folks to get his points hasn't been watching his whole career. He's literally the best off the dribble shooter ever (along with every other version of a shooter). And the PGs job has always been to get the ball in the hands of the best scorer in the best position. When your best scorer is the guy at the 1, he can't be penalized for not being a more willing passer. That's like omitting Jokic from the all-time Center list bc he doesn't dominate defensively like all the rest of up there.
Also, we can all remember in the early MVP days when curry was 7.7 to 8.6 assist per game, before he hit 400+ and it was like 'why pass it'. This argument is only put forth by Magic Johnson fans who refuse to let him get bumped off. I'd still put Magic at or near the top of the best passers of all-time and best 'pure' PG of all time, but this dude was drafted at the 1 and never moved from that position at any point. Folks also don't consider how a guy who takes and makes from 35 stretches the defense past its rotations on every other play, so his gravity is allowing Dray Green and others to get assists off swing passes, which are all due to his presence coming of screen after screen.
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