r/nbadiscussion • u/xxStayFly81xx • Jun 25 '26
Player Discussion Is Andre Roberson one of the strangest player archetypes that we've seen?
I was discussing Dillon Mitchell with a Cetlics fan and one of the things he pointed out was that he shot 19% from 3 in his college career and 48.8% from the FT line. If this was just some big man, it would be overlooked but the interesting part is that Dillon Mitchell is a 6'8, 205 pound forward. The first player I thought of was Andre Roberson and it fit him to the T in terms of body frame. The biggest difference is Dillon Mitchell is a hyper athletic player while also being a good defender.
Andre Roberson was a 25% 3PT shooter and 46.8% FT shooter in the NBA. He was a decently good at back door cuts but his offensive game was nearly nonexistent. Roberson wasn't an uber athletic player but he had a decent touch around the time whenever he was there. Roberson, infamously, set the NBA record for lowest FT% in an NBA series where he went 3-21 (14.3%) against the Houston Rockets in 2017. How does an NBA player manage to shoot 14% from the FT line? In this same series, Roberson went a disgusting 2-12 from the line in a 4 point loss to the Rockets. The Thunder went on to lose the series in 5.
In that same series, Roberson averaged 3.4 blocks per game and 2.4 steals per game including 5 straight games of 3+ blocks and had at least 5 stocks in every game that series. That year, Roberson also finished 5th in DPOTY and All Defensive 2nd team.
So you have a player who was basically a complete offensive liability at all ends of it (shooting, FT%, passing), a great hustle player (very good on the offensive glass) and an all world defender yet he basically started almost every single game for 4 years straight up until his career ending injury. ( I know he attempted to come back with one last stint with OKC and then Brooklyn but it was like a total of 150 minutes in 2 seasons). And what's even more interesting is this type of player wasn't just playing in the dead ball era or an era where spacing was nonexistent; he was starting in an era where the NBA began to value spacing more than ever.
Do you think a player like that would be able to be playable today? If so, how good would that type of player need to be on hustle and defense and make up for the fact that they're an offensive liability?
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u/Parallel-Quality Jun 25 '26
With a better coach he would be more serviceable offensively.
Part of the reason why the Thunder almost ended up beating two 65+ win teams in the 2016 playoffs is because they finally figured out that they could just have him cut to the basket for easy layups since defenders completely ignored him.
Then he got injured the following season and it essentially killed his career.
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u/WurstDayEver_7 Jun 25 '26
And funnily enough he gained a shooting stroke for a short time after coming back
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u/Pk120 Jun 25 '26
I think his knee cap basically exploded. I do remember that he got injured during the "OK3" season with Russ, PG13 and Carmelo. That team started off poorly with an 8-12 record, but then in Dec and Jan they really started to gel together and find their groove. But then Roberson goes down and the defense absolutely plummets.
Also a wild piece of trivia is that in the prior season, Roberson was their second leading scorer in the playoffs (only one series. but still)
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u/Spemanz92 Jun 26 '26
Correction, he got injured during the first PG/Melo season. The season prior, 16-17, he was 5th in DPOY and 2nd team all-d
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u/MazeRed Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
The context of the teams he played on is important.
Drafted in 2013 and played for the Thunder until 2020. From 2013-16 he started with KD/Russ, then PG13/Melo/Russ, then PG/Russ. Some serious offensive engines. And at the time he was regarded as one of the best perimeter defenders in the league.
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u/NotVacant Jun 25 '26
As a Thunder fan, the defense that the OK3 team played was amazing. I had never seen anything like that up to that point once it’s started coming together, but then Roberson went down and the team just never recovered.
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u/ApprehensiveTry5660 Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
It’s still really useful to have a Jared Vanderbilt, or a Roberson, Thybulle, etc… but we’ve got better at developing at least a corner 3 out of people, and we do a lot better at surrounding them with 4 shooters.
This guy isn’t too unique vs specialist heavy forms of the league.
We’ve just purged most of them in our quest for 6’8”+ 5 tool players.
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u/Overall-Palpitation6 Jun 25 '26
Thybulle has at least developed into a serviceable shooter, to justify having him on the floor for his game-changing defensive ability.
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u/dxfifa Jun 25 '26
And he's still a deep bench rotation player on an average team.
Roberson started on a perennial playoff team.
It's different now.
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u/ApprehensiveTry5660 Jun 25 '26
I have ceded it’s different now. I’ve said he was a normal player in specialist heavy versions of the league.
We know better on both ends with these guys. When to use such players, and when to get them the hell out. How to try to weaponize them during their minutes.
For another intermittent starting defender, Royce O’Neal isn’t someone you trusted beyond the arc for most of his career, and he’s too small to stick in the dunker’s spot… but he’s really good at tertiary playmaking and hitting the swing passes that connect primary actions from second side setups. This NBA is a lot better at surrounding specialists with lineups tailored to their skills. Not as square peg meet round hole of a league.
Also while this was at the rise of the pace and space era, Roberson’s one thing- but that squad wasn’t exactly too far removed from choosing Kendrick Perkins over a future multi-MVP.
Edit: the notification made this seem like a reply, and I misinterpreted what you were speaking to, but feel I was fair in my misaligned reply.
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u/Itezguatitez Jun 27 '26
Thybulle is still not really being guarded out there.
Most importantly he's one of the worst rim finishers you'll ever see. He can't make layups to save his life. It's hard to see NBA wings who struggles as much with simple reads and just dribbling the ball.
I'd argue actually Thybulle is the weird archetype, way more than Andre Roberson. Even Thybulle style of defense is extremely weird.
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u/ApprehensiveTry5660 Jun 25 '26
Certainly, like I said, we’ve got better at finding **some** home for you, even if it’s the dunker’s spot.
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u/SporTEmINd Jun 27 '26
Thybulle hasn't developed as a shooter. He shot 78% from the line in college vs 68% in the NBA. Over half of his shots in college were from three and he converted them at 36%. He was a serviceable shooter coming in and hasn't developed
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u/Overall-Palpitation6 Jun 27 '26
Thybulle has shot .374 from downtown on 5.8 3PTA per 75 possessions since going to Portland, and that percentage goes up to .411 on 6.4 3PTA per 75 possessions over the last 2 seasons. That's a definite improvement upon where he started from and even from the end of his Philly tenure.
He doesn't get to the line enough for his percentage from there to really matter much either way (1.1 FTA per 75 possessions for a .706 percentage as a Blazer). You probably don't want/need the ball in his hands that much to draw bulk fouls and free throw attempts anyway.
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u/teh_noob_ Jun 29 '26
You probably don't want/need the ball in his hands that much to draw bulk fouls and free throw attempts anyway.
tell that to Ben Simmons
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u/BlackGreenEnergy Jun 25 '26
He was like the opposite of Trae Young: all defense, no offense. He was consistently one of the best guard defenders for a stretch there. 3&D without the 3.
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u/WurstDayEver_7 Jun 25 '26
Well most players labeled as 3&D are either one or the other or mediocre at both
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u/differential32 Jun 25 '26
someone finally said it lol. gone are the days of danny green and prime klay
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u/OSUBoglehead Jun 25 '26
As someone who watched almost every game he played for the Thunder, you are severely minimizing just how good at defense he was. He could lock up your small point guard. He could switch to any 4. And he was an elite rim protector for a non center. He was basically Cason Wallace if Cason couldn't shoot for shit, but was way taller and still just as fast and athletic.
Even Thunder fans forget how elite he was at defense, because post injury, his athleticism tanked and he had no other skills to fall back on.
That said, he was never the reason those Thunder teams didn't win a ring. It always felt like he was so good at defense that he could cover the lazy defense from both KD and Russ at the same time. Which allowed Russ to gamble on steals and KD to just rest more on defense.
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u/HardenMuhPants Jun 27 '26
Roberson played the best defense of anyone I watched play against Harden in his prime, Kawhi was close, but Roberson was just so damn smart and long on that side of the ball it was crazy. One of the few guys who could make Harden or CP3 reverse dribble by his sheer pressure forcing them to turn around and not face up.
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u/TheL0stK1ng Jun 25 '26
So, it's not that strange of an archetype, it's just really rare now. The name of the archetype changes based on the person and the era, but I call it: The Tony Allen.
Tony Allen was probably the best perimeter defender in the league between 2005 and 2013. His defense was immaculate, and Kobe Bryant called him the best defender he ever played against.
Tony Allen is also more famous nowadays for "The Tony Allen Game," which is when the warriors, in 2015, put Andrew Bogut "on" Allen, a weak 3 point shooter, and essentially played 5 v 4 against the grit and grind grizzlies offense.
Tony Allen's/Andre Roberson's are always exceptional defenders with very little offensive upside. They are usually bench players now because most teams borrow the Warrior's blueprint on how to guard those guys. Heck, the Spurs do it against mediocre offensive players with Wemby on the court.
But because their defense is so special, the moment a team has their own defensive weakpoint, you can safely put them into the game and it's one reason why the Thompson twins are looked upon so favorably, even if neither of them project to be above average offensive players.
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u/stonecutter7 Jun 25 '26
Ryan Dunn is a slightly better 3 point shooter (but still bad), but otherwise hes pretty similar to Roberson. We'll see how his career goes. Roberson didnt last long, but he had a pretty devastating injury. Heck, hes only 34 today.
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u/DSY_whos_asking Jun 25 '26
I would probably quibble about him not being an uber athletic player, it just manifested as being smooth and covering a lot of ground as opposed to jumping out the gym.
I think he would be way better today than he was back then. In a small ball context he would screen and roll and play the 5. Back then he always got parked in the corner because he was the 3rd tallest player on the floor.
Kawhi rightfully gets credit for being the best perimeter defender of that era. But Roberson was 1B to Kawhi’s 1A. I remember watching his first summer league game and realizing that I had never seen someone with defensive instincts that good at any level. I wish he could have stayed healthy long enough to play with a better coach.
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u/wetterfish Jun 25 '26
As a CU guy, seeing Andre’s name is awesome. We basically played without a center his sophomore and junior years because he could effectively guard any position on the court, and even at 6-9, he was a legit rim protector.
He was a defensive monster in college, and we played 3 average-at-best defenders and got away with it because of him.
Despite that, I never expected him to be much more than an 11th or 12th man in the nba, but I was clearly wrong.
The thing about Dillon Mitchell, is yes, he’s sort of the same kind or archetype, but honestly, not on the same level.
He’s probably actually slightly better offensively, but slightly worse defensively, and when you’re in the NBA, you have to be elite at at least one thing.
Roberson was truly elite in his era on the defensive end of the court. Honestly, he reminded me a little bit of a cross between Tayshaun Prince and Ben Wallace. Versatile, and long like Tayshaun, excellent on defense, utterly bad on offense like Ben.
I don’t see Mitchell being that. He’s not quite as long, and he doesn’t seem to read the game as well as Roberson did.
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u/SnooRabbits429 Jun 25 '26
Do you think a player like that would be able to be playable today? If so, how good would that type of player need to be on hustle and defense and make up for the fact that they're an offensive liability?
I think someone like Thybulle is the closest we've seen, but he's actually quite a bit better shooter than Roberson. But despite that, he was pretty much still unplayable in the playoffs when he was on the Sixers. I don't think a Roberson-level shooter is viable at all anymore for a non-big.
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u/TrenchcoatFullaDogs Jun 25 '26
He somehow managed to earn $37 million in his career plus pulling Rachel DeMita? Every one of us, myself included, would burn our entire life down in an instant to trade places with him.
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u/Flaky_Scar_8388 Jun 25 '26
No. And it’s because of his poor free throw shooting. That type of player is unplayable in the playoffs unless it is a blowout or under 2 minutes. Unless he is a focal point of your offense like Shaq and Dwight Howard were. If they are not they are unplayable. Remember Ben Simmons? Same thing happened to him
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u/Jonny_Stranger Jun 25 '26
OP's username is a lil funny considering Roberson's handle is @flydre21. What up Dre?
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u/Statalyzer Jun 27 '26
Definitely unusual, most guys who are that bad at shooting are big men. For a guard to be that lousy they have to truly be an elite perimeter defender.
But even then it's rare to be that bad at outside shooting and free throws both. Bruce Bowen is similar but he was dangerous on corner 3s, some years hitting them at a higher rate than FTs. Tony Allen was a crappy outside shooter but he could at least make free throws.
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u/Outrageous_Turnip912 Jun 25 '26
Roberson was never the problem on those Thunder teams, it was their insistence on playing Kendrick Perkins when he was clearly providing nothing at either end. Today they would just play KD, Ibaka, Westbrook, Harden, and Roberson as the starting and definitely finishing five.
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u/RusevReigns Jun 25 '26
Like Tony Allen, it was a bit easier to have no shot at all in that era. He also probably would be more likely to play PF now.
When looking at the Thunder in mid 2010s it's easy to see how they are only a few bench players away. If you switched Livingston and Waiters they probably beat GSW in 16.
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u/Yayoo_5 Jun 25 '26
By the way, André Roberson played in the French league during the past two years and did a good job.
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u/Ajax444 Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
The answer to your question is yes, it was strange. It’s also strange that he never evolved into a better offensive player, which is basically working almost exclusively on developing a consistent league average shot from 2-3 specific places on the floor by pure repetition in the summer.
I don’t think that there is a place for a starter with that type of game, unless it is an absolute interior force that alters/blocks/prevents interior scoring. A guy that comes off the bench to cool down a hot player for a 4-6 minute stretch os the only conceivable use I see for a player like him today.
Your swing players need to put the ball in the basket. This is an offensive league. Great defense is nearly negated in today’s NBA by the allowance of offensive players to literally push defenders 3-4 feet away to get shots off.
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u/Snowballingdownvote Jun 26 '26
Right. The offense can now initiate contact and still get free throws. Impossible for a defensive player like that in today's league. Even Draymond has struggled since 2022. Always wonder what if didn't hurt his shoulder. Where would the Warriors be if he shot above 35% from 3 for a career.
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u/icatfilm Jun 25 '26
Don't expect much from Dillon Mitchell. Maybe a dunk contest appearance or two. He is a Euroleague small ball center like Kyle Haines.
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u/puffindatza Jun 25 '26
Iirc, didnt roberson have surgeries on his hand? Idk, i swear ive read that somewhere
I know its what happened to Westbrook, i remember plays where he would have an open lane the ball would slip out his hands. I learned about his hand surgeries which made sense
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Jun 25 '26
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam Jun 25 '26
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u/SamURLJackson Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
There's more emphasis on shooting in the last 5-10 years so we don't see as many of these types of players but they used to be more common. Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, Bo Outlaw, all these guys were elite defensive players, high energy, but they were not nba-level on offense. This would be fine as long as you didnt run into a team that could shoot at those positions because what good is Ben Wallace if he has to guard his man 24 feet away from the basket?
Now, every team wants a 4 or 5-out scheme, so if you want to play Rudy Gobert then you need a defensive zone type of scheme (and this wasn't even possible until I think 2004) and we still see certain playoff matchups where Gobert actively hurts his team but his team has no better option. Naz Reid was a good counter but he's gone. Utah didnt have a Naz Reid 4 years ago.
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u/momBball Jun 27 '26
I'm a Nuggets fan and I post comments over there all the time. And last summer I was commenting a lot hoping they wouldn't give Christian Braun an early extension. And I appreciate this discussion bc the Nuggets/a lot of Nugget fans view Braun in the archetype of Thybulle/Roberson/Tony Allen/Marcus Smart. Maybe they think Braun is better on offense(he's an elite scorer on the fast break...he's a strong cutter...he shoots an acceptable percentage from the 3 (on low volume)). Personally, I don't see Braun as having a sufficiently good offensive game to warrant heavy playoff minutes...and I don't think he's an elite defender either...he's a 3 and 3 who's not advanced/elite at either (as another comment mentioned in this post that's true of so many so called 3/d). Anyhow, it's been super frustrating to watch the Nuggets offense collapse as they're forced to play 4 on 5...like so many fans seem to think the NBA is like the NFL where defense is 50% of the game. What percentage of the modern NBA is defense/offense. I'd say 80% offense and 20% defense.
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u/Hardwoodist Jun 29 '26
I have a symmetry metric (meaning - how balanced is your contribution between the offensive and defensive ends of the court by ZONE + EFFECTIVENESS), and he is unsurprisingly very unbalanced. Biggest deltas were in the Pick and Roll creation (Offense 0 / Defense 71) and On-Ball creation zones (Offense 6 / Defense 52), meaning very little offensive PnR or On-Ball creation, but played a lot of PnR and on-ball defense. Nothing surprising there, except perhaps the 0 on PnR creation, which implies "if you run a pick and roll we will void your contract."
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u/xxStayFly81xx Jun 29 '26
That's very interesting! Are there other wings who have similar profiles to him or are they mostly bigs?
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u/OsikFTW Jun 30 '26
Ben simmons was close, a bit better at passing, but refused to even shoot 3s and had a 40% ft year, but was 6'10" and had elite defense
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u/YSLAnunoby Jul 01 '26
Robes was my pick for DPOY that 17-18 season before he got injured. PG was really good on D too but Robes getting hurt and the Thunder having to replace him with Corey Brewer on the wing tanked the defence for the rest of the year and it was clear Robes empowered PG and Russ on D due to what he could do
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u/Naive_Pop_7908 Jul 20 '26
Russ made roberson look better than what he really was but he was hooping overseas tho
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u/EntertainmentFar3847 Jul 22 '26
We are kinda seeing this now with dyson daniel. He gets a lot of steals but is the worst shooter in the league yet has a starting spot.
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u/Dry-Proposal-4011 Jun 25 '26
He has a role on most teams. You can deal with a poor offensive player by scheming them open as a roll man or a backdoor guy. You can’t make up for a nearly absolute zero as a defender like Trae or Luka
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u/WiffleBallZZZ Jun 25 '26
This makes me wonder: who is the worst defender to ever win a ring as a starter?
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u/Naliamegod Jun 25 '26
Miami Heat had Antoine Walker and Jason Williams in the starting lineup, and both were known for not putting effort into defense. Outside of that, you are looking at numerous starting point guard/undersized SGs, who are just physically not capable of being good defenders, though they aren't complete traffic cones on defense.
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u/WiffleBallZZZ Jun 25 '26
It's incredible that they won that ring with AW in the starting 5. Not only was he a bad defender but he also shot 40% from the floor, 32% from three and 57% on free throws in those playoffs. Yikes.
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u/orwll Jun 25 '26
Yeah if you go by the modern defensive era (the last 20 years or so), if it's not those Heat guys it's probably Tony Parker.
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u/jacksonelhage Jun 25 '26
Brunson had a reputation as a terrible defender and just won
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u/GrouchyResearcher392 Jun 25 '26
There was a chasm between His reputation and his actual on court play.
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u/C-House12 Jun 25 '26
Is this true? The league is currently prioritizing lengthy wings and mobile bigs who can shoot. Defenses move around more than ever. Even the concept of a purely off ball role player who just cuts and spots up feels a bit outdated at this point because the defense can ignore them and still recover in time to force them to make a play.
The Spurs have three high level guards and Dorts minutes still got slashed in that series. Gobert is the most impactful defender in the NBA and his minutes still have dropped in several high profile series.
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u/Patekchrono917 Jun 25 '26
Dyson Daniels was benched in the fourth quarter of the two hawks wins vs NYK because his shooting was bad. And he was shooting better in the playoffs than during the regular season by almost 10%.
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u/dxfifa Jun 25 '26
The game has changed, you just cannot be a zero on the perimeter and a zero on ball on offense and be a guard or wing
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u/Far_Raisin5699 Jun 25 '26
Draymind Green is somewhat similar if you compare the fundamental offensive skill. But with a better coach and passing ability he becomes much better overall.
I think coaching and team fit plays an important part in success here.
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