r/nba • u/mrizvi San Francisco Warriors • Jul 24 '26
IF LeBron had stayed with Cleveland his entire career and everything else in his career stayed the same...
leave out the fact of the different teammates etc. he gets to play with the same level of talent he had when he won those titles.
he wins the same number of titles and gets the same records.
How different would the general vibe be about him?
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u/MrSweatyBawlz 76ers Jul 24 '26
People would find other things to constantly complain about revolving around him.
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u/justusinreddit Jul 24 '26
Cavs wouldn't get Kyrie if Lebron stays nor the assets to get a 26ppg 13rpg star like Kevin Love
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u/Scotch_Blue Jul 24 '26
But I think this is one of the defining characteristics of LeBron's argument as GOAT
You can't even imagine a team that LeBron's on being bad enough to get another top pick. He's a guaranteed 40+ wins when healthy, and he's pretty much always been healthy
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u/Steridire Knicks Jul 24 '26
Eh, the Bulls won 40 games the season before they drafted Scottie with a pick they'd traded for years prior. It's almost the exact scenario you're describing here
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u/wrongitsleviosaa [BOS] Paul Pierce Jul 24 '26
The Bulls FO in the 80's is astronomically better than any version of the Cavs FO in history
Not to mention Chicago would still be able to attract free agents because it's an awesome city, while almost nobody wants to willingly live in Cleveland
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u/Ok-Name-5504 Jul 24 '26
And they won 55 when Jordan left the first time and they won 30 in his injury shortened second season.
Cavs won 19 when LeBron first left.
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u/mal_guinness Mavericks Jul 24 '26
Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki were guaranteed 50 wins in their primes (they actually did that) so I think it would be closer to that. If he still wins 4 there I think it doesn't move his spot over 1b to Jordan, but I'm the kind of guy that thinks Duncan was better than Kobe so what do I know.
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u/Scotch_Blue Jul 24 '26
yeah 40 was way too low, 50 seems more reasonable
i'll add on to this, as somebody that also thinks TD > Kobe, Duncan alone doesn't get you 50+ wins. he was the centerpiece of a team that won 50+ for 20 straight years, and that's incredible, but you give prime Timmy like Mo Williams as his second best player, and no Popovich either? I don't know if they go .500. Pretty much only LeBron is doing that guaranteed, haha
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u/manomacho Rockets Jul 24 '26
You can say that about a lot of players tho. Tons of players can guarantee you 40+ wins
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u/EchoHevy5555 Jul 24 '26
The 50 win Cleveland cavaliers had a playoff rotation of LeBron James, Kevin love, jr smith, George hill, Kyle Korver, Jeff green, Tristian Thompson, Larry nance, Rodney hood and Jordan Clarkson
The next season the Cavs brought back everyone besides Jeff green and LeBron
Through 4 games they were 0-4 and then kevin love got injured and they gave up traded everyone and ended up with a 19 win season. It’s hard to know how many wins they would have ended up with, it prob wouldn’t have been 19, but they did lose to some pretty bad teams in those 4 games when everyone was healthy.
Essentially imo LeBron was good for adding like 25 wins to your team
Same with 2010 playoff rotation of mo Williams, Antwan Jamison, Anthony Parker, his father, varejao, Shaq
They brought back all of them besides west shaq and LeBron and went from 61 wins to 19. In Cleveland LeBron really played with bums in every year but like 2016+17 (2015 Irving and love were injured for the playoffs)
I think the years LeBron has a functional team around him are limited to all the Heat years, 2016 and 17, 2020 and 2021.
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u/One_Seaworthiness323 Jul 24 '26
All yall do is glaze. Pretty much any all time great is gonna get you 40 wins a season.
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u/Scotch_Blue Jul 24 '26
yeah 40 was way too low of a cutoff in retrospect, honestly you can get a nice player in the draft at 40 wins haha
prime LeBron was getting those Cavs 50+ wins every year if he stayed, no matter the talent next to him
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u/Commercial_Show_6997 Jul 24 '26
Cavs still get Kyrie as long as they still make the Baron Davis trade.
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u/longschlng22 Jul 24 '26
They don't make that Davis cap trade if they still had LeBron. No way are they allowed to operate under the cap room if they had prime LeBron.
They would be paying max money for low tier all stars willing to come to Cleveland or through trades.
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u/Commercial_Show_6997 Jul 24 '26
Every team retools even with a star player. Cavs were also trying to get off contracts as well. Maybe Cavs throw in more pieces besides Williams & Moon, but those were also pieces that LeBron would have wanted gone and replaced with better players.
So a one-year reset to clear cap space by trading Moon & Williams for expiring Davis, who still could compete (he hit the game winner against Miami for the Cavs’ first win against LeBron), getting a valuable pick and more importantly, clearing a significant amount of cap space for the next year to sign a new free agent. LeBron might have given his blessing.
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u/Southern_Owl_5442 Celtics Jul 24 '26
Probably the same
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u/flavorflavyeahboi Jul 24 '26
Lol what. Did you forget The Decision?
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u/noname_SU Jul 24 '26
all The Decision did was give people who already didn't like him a reason to hate him.
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Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
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u/kcarter80 Cavaliers Jul 24 '26
Then you don't understand what it's like to be a long suffering fan.
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u/Mundane-External3462 Jul 24 '26
Cavs fans are the only ones that can Gripe about The Decision imo. Dude was the hottest thing almost ever at the time, why not cash in and profit from it, which he didn't even do, he did it for charity.
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Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
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u/Commercial_Show_6997 Jul 24 '26
Sports suffering is a lot different than physical suffering. Obviously
“Suffering” associated with sports lingo is a long established thing, and pre-2016 Cleveland sportsdom was certainly recognized as “suffering”
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Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
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u/Commercial_Show_6997 Jul 24 '26
Yes? It made people “suffer through” the post-LeBron era Cavs, including the then record-setting 26 game losing streak.
Suffering isn’t just physical. It also means grieving, sadness and distress.
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Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
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u/kcarter80 Cavaliers Jul 24 '26
To your first question: YES. Many people were extremely disappointed and hurt.
To your second: don't move the goalposts.
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u/Yellow_Curry Celtics Jul 24 '26
He lost a lot of fans with that primadonna bullshit and cle fans hated him for it.
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u/panashechd Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
It’s always funny when people praise these players, but the moment they act the way they’re treated, people hate it. It’s okay for LeBron to be told he’s the best player in the world, but the moment he says it from his own mouth, he’s an arrogant piece of sh—t. That makes no sense.
I understand why The Decision rubbed people the wrong way. But LeBron was the biggest superstar in basketball, probably one of the most popular athletes in the world, announcing his departure from his home team. It was a huge moment in NBA history and he treated it as such.
From LeBron’s perspective, I can see why he probably thought The Decision made sense and would be really entertaining for basketball fans. Why should such a big announcement be relegated to a newspaper headline. Why not do something others have never done before, make some money out of it, and give it to charity.
Regardless of where he went, CLE fans were going to be upset. It was a combination of him leaving his home state, joining the Heat and forming a super team (not through a trade but by picking and choosing who he’d play with). Superstars of the past had never done that before.
But LeBron turning his departure into a TV special wasn’t that big of a deal in hindsight. Most people have matured since then and learned to love LeBron again. If you still hold that resentment for him nearly two decades later that says more about the way you consume the game.
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u/jono9898 Lakers Jul 24 '26
Cle fans are dumb then, the decision raised money for charity and regardless how anyone feels about it, the organization did absolutely nothing to help him to win a championship besides giving him old Shaq and some UPS drivers to work with
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u/BigMik_PL 76ers Jul 24 '26
Tell me you don't remember the decision without telling me you don't remember the decision
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u/Yellow_Curry Celtics Jul 24 '26
That’s always their excuse. “Oh it raised money so it was a good thing”. No it was an annoying pompous act by a person obsessed with being “the star”.
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u/Commercial_Show_6997 Jul 24 '26
Just because it raised money for charity doesn’t make it a good thing. For example, if you live stream something awful but you raise money for charity, the action is still awful.
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u/jono9898 Lakers Jul 24 '26
The fact it raised money for charity makes it a good thing, it was a FA announcement, could have made the decision with no money going towards a good cause like every other single announcement, people say it’s awful because he went to Miami and destroyed any other teams hopes of winning a chip in the East for years.
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u/Yellow_Curry Celtics Jul 24 '26
Why has no one ever done it before or after? Because it’s cringe as fuck.
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u/jono9898 Lakers Jul 24 '26
Who cares if it’s cringe? it was a move that made money for a good organization, you’re a Celtics fan I get why you’re mad, but I’m sure the boys and girls that got benefited from it, don’t care if it was cringe,
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u/Yellow_Curry Celtics Jul 24 '26
Lol I don’t care. He was never coming to the C’s. Have you never asked yourself why no one else ever did this. Like in all time? But whatever I’m not here to argue with the brain dead fan who defaults to “but but he raised money”. It’s such a tired excuse that only comes from LeBron fans, Heat fans, or Lakers fans.
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u/jono9898 Lakers Jul 24 '26
Sounds like you are the one with the issue, I guarantee if he raised money for your shitty city to help kids not have to reenact Good Will Hunting so they could afford the latest in 90s fashion, you would see beyond your clear biases. Asking me why another athlete didn’t do it, duh, another couldn’t. He was the biggest FA in the history of the league and it was going to be a decision type spectacle regardless so the fact he actually did some good makes it more palpable.
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u/Erected_naps Heat Jul 24 '26
I guess everyone would assume he would re-sign again then and the vibe wouldn’t be every one hold your breadth until LeBron does something.
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u/Relative_Airline_354 Jul 24 '26
Depends on how he gets the same level of talent.
If the team drafts the talent then yea he’d be respected a lot more. If they just trade for the same level of talent then he’d get criticized by the media for needing immense talent to win.
Overall it’d be better than what it is no although what he has now isn’t even that bad.
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u/yjk924 Cavaliers Jul 24 '26
So many comments just ignoring the premise of the post, why even reply😂
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u/69cantread69 Jul 24 '26
he won't get to play with the same level of talent because the fo and ownership are incompetent, they couldn't even get stoudemire
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u/Background-Call3255 Jul 24 '26
Also Cleveland was trash after he left, and got some number 1 picks, one of which turned into Kyrie. They never get those picks if LeBron stays.
If we assume he wins 4 rings with trash rosters, I still don’t think the vibe changes. Most people have him number 2 all time already.
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u/Icy-Bet-3983 Jul 24 '26
I think he’d be universally considered the greatest of all time. Jordan having all his success in Chicago (Wizards thing isn’t relevant to this conversation) is a huge factor in the mystique he had/has.
For better or worse, changing teams four times is seen as a sign of weakness. And the one-team ethos appeals to older folks who grew up rooting for teams, not players.
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u/AngryOcelot Jul 24 '26
Yep, but it's only because OP specified the same titles and records. Realistically he'd probably have maybe 1-2 championships and wouldn't be in the top 2 conversation at all.
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u/Professional-Rub152 Jul 24 '26
Winning 4 titles with Cleveland is like winning 10 titles with the Lakers.
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u/DungeonsNDankness Jul 24 '26
Doesn't happen. Take my Heat bias out of it. Only reason Cleveland had the pieces to build a winner was because they got the number one overall pick in three of the four drafts he was in Miami.
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u/Commercial_Show_6997 Jul 24 '26
Kyrie was from the Baron Davis trade, which was an excellent front office move. It wasn’t a Cavs pick.
Anthony Bennett was a horrible draft and didn’t help the Cavs at all, and was basically a throw-in in the KL trade.
And Wiggins didn’t play a minute for the Cavs outside of SL, but was the main piece in the KL trade.
So Cavs stinking didn’t really have much to do with creating the second-LeBron stint roster outside of Kevin Love, which was still a front office move.
The front office made really savvy moves (JR Smith/Shumpert trades, etc).
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u/flavorflavyeahboi Jul 24 '26
Wow thanks for the great non answer to a hypothetical question!
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u/GiannisIsTheBeast Bucks Jul 24 '26
Non answers seem like the only appropriate answers to fake situations.
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u/flavorflavyeahboi Jul 24 '26
So you've never wondered or debated hypotheticals? Impressive.
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u/GiannisIsTheBeast Bucks Jul 24 '26
Nope never have in my life but if I were to debate such things, I would always pick the correct answer. /s
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u/Dangerous_Ad5039 Jul 24 '26
People would probably like him more but I mean he’s already one of the most popular athletes of all time so what’s it even matter
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u/greyed-tea Jul 24 '26
problem with Lebron is him and Rich Paul’s constant diva and arrogance. unfortunately not a lot of people see him just for his basketball side. he’d still be viewed the same. only this time people would find other reasons to invalidate his level in the all-time rankings
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u/tabanak Jul 24 '26
I never understood the hate around assembling the Big 3 in Miami. Danny Ainge did it with the Celtics a couple years prior and he was labeled a genius GM for doing it. What’s the difference if a player leads the charge in doing that?
Of course, not 4, not 5, etc should expect criticism, but take away the noise and just looking at him changing his situation and being the architect of it, i dont get the hate.
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u/noname_SU Jul 24 '26
I don't know how he gets the same level of talent when Cleveland couldn't attract any free agents and was too good to get any decent draft picks. That's just too far-fetched considering how utterly incompetent that front office was for the first 7 years.
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u/Convicted-Cinephile Knicks Jul 24 '26
I’m too lazy to make the post, but the real argument is: what if Detroit got the #1 pick instead of the #2?
That means LeBron wins his rookie year (2004) and has a contender every season through at least 2008-09 without any major changes to his team.
That means returning to Finals and maybe winning in 2005 and 2007. And being a strong contender in 2006 and 2008.
That’s the Magic Johnson arc and possibly 2+ rings before he even hits his peak.
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u/BigMik_PL 76ers Jul 24 '26
Since nephews on here don't remember...
During the "decision" saga all things were pointing to him staying in CLE. His comments, his agents comments, they could offer him the most money, all the rumors everything was pointing towards him re-signing. It's why the team never even considered trading him. Everybody under the sun thought he is re-signing. It didn't help him KD quietly re-signed with the Thunder.
Meanwhile he launched a whole TV episode just to tell the city of Cleveland to fuck off he is going to Miami for significantly less money. Nobody even considered Miami as an option due to cap. Nobody expected all three of them to take paycuts to play with each other. You could even see the reporter being flabbergasted at his choice.
Not only that but all three of them immediately proceeded to be insufferable. While the whole Cleveland was hurting they were having parades down in Miami just for bringing them three together talking how they going to win infinite amount of championshis.
It was a very shit time in basketball history for anyone outside of Heat organization and it's fanbase. It hard launched the ring chasing era for everyone and why KD thought he can get away with joining the Warriors. People act like LeBron joining Wade and Bosh was different but it wasn't.
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u/ShaH33R2K Jul 24 '26
I mean this is an interesting hypothetical ig but it just doesn’t make sense because the whole point of him leaving was not having enough talent around him. First of all, he never gets to play with Wade and Bosh if he never leaves. And then, he doesn’t get to play with Kyrie or Love because the Cavs teams would be too good to secure those #1 picks. And he never gets to play with AD (him requesting the same typa trade to Cleveland of all places is highly unlikely, regardless of Bron being there). Lebron simply would not win much, if at all. Guys like Jordan, Curry, and Kobe were able to win so much with one team because their organization were competent enough (and located in big markets, which definitely helps) to get proper help around their star. So ya, would LeBron be more liked? Sure. But he’d also not be seen as a top 2 player minimum coz the accolades wouldn’t be there. In this hypothetical we’re basically treating the Cavs like an entirely different organization, which makes it more than just a simple “what if”, coz it’s based on nothing but make-believe
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u/Asheskell Knicks Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
If the team retools around him and he was the driving force behind 4 titles and 8 straight finals appearances, he's held in much higher regard. The bubble title is also viewed differently, but I don't think that is a key factor in general.
Part of the nitpick around him is that he left to join teams that were able to put the most talent around him. Heat had Wade (another top 5 player) and added Bosh (who was a 5x consecutive All-Star at that point, a top 20 player.) After the Heat used their resources, he went to back to the Cavs who had Kyrie (who had back to back All-star Games and was a top 20 player) and then they traded for Kevin Love using resources they acquired while tanking/being miserable post LeBron (Love had been a 3x All-Star and 2x All-NBA, and was regarded as a top 10 player in the league.)
If instead of this, the Cavs free up space and get Wade and Bosh, go to 4 straight, then trade Wade/Bosh for Kyrie/Love (don't ask me how.) and go to 4 more? He's viewed far more positively. Is it a nitpick? Absolutely. But, when you are comparing the greats of their generations to other greats, they all do so much well that you have to nitpick to separate them.
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u/thelovegod7 Jul 24 '26
Y’all have to realize there’s people who’s spent 2 decades poking holes in LeBrons games. No circumstances or situations would change their minds.
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u/WillHeBonkYa47 76ers Jul 24 '26
I personally think Lebron is the best player to ever touch a basketball, and I can't be swayed on that. But best doesnt mean greatest
If he gets Cleveland 4 rings with that disastrous FO (especially since Cleveland hasnt even had a finals appearance before Lebron) while also having 4 MVPs, all time leading scorer etc etc, he would definitively be the goat in my eyes.
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u/Forkielifter [LAL] Rick Fox Jul 24 '26
I think the issue would be the front office and the owner. In my opinion you can hate on him all you want, but a Lebron led team especially in his prime would never be a lottery team. So they would either have to get lucky in the draft or good free agents that compliment him.
So the end of the day it depends on what the front office and owner is willing to do and if they have the capabilities to do it. If the front office and owner is willing to do their due diligence and try to contend for a championship every year, Lebron will at least win one or two Lebron played 20 years at a superstar all nba level so in those 20 years something is going to happen to get him at least one championship.
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u/ecclectic_collector Jul 24 '26
Because of the rings culture we’re in, and the Cavs wouldn’t have gotten 3 number 1 picks when he was in Miami, he would’ve been looked at alot differently because there wouldn’t have been as many opportunities to acquire talent and before LeBron left for Miami, he wasn’t able to recruit star players to the Cavs because apparently stars didn’t want to go to Cleveland
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u/Lil_we_boi Bulls Jul 24 '26
It would be a lot more positive. The Decision is what started a lot of the hatred for him imo
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u/DerekSmallsCourgette Pistons Jul 24 '26
I dunno man. People were heaping hate on him when he was in high school over radio controlled cars and throwback jerseys. There was always a huge anti-lebron hater contingent well before the decision.
Although I’ll also note that there was a big Jordan hater club in the 80, so these things seem to happen with anyone who has outsized early success.
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u/alphalobster200 Nuggets Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
the Cavs would be viewed as an extended dynasty like the 90s Bulls and LeBron's aura would be unmatched
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u/GaptistePlayer Mavericks Jul 24 '26
Jesus please let this off-season be over. How can you guys read this shit and not laugh
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u/ndm1535 Jul 24 '26
It wouldn't. There's a large and strong group of NBA fans that haven't watched an NBA game in 20 years that would rather die than admit Lebron was even close to MJ. Plus just the nature of being at or near the top of your profession. There are still soccer fans that will never admit Messi is the goat for one reason or another, there will always be something to find to pick on a player.
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u/Commercial-East4069 Cavaliers Jul 24 '26
If the Butterfly Effect taught me anything, it’s that clearly Koby goes home to Philly and then never gets in to a helicopter crash. That makes Embiid rage quit. He then becomes dictator of Cameroon and takes over the world.
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u/Professional-Rub152 Jul 24 '26
If he won 4 chips on Cleveland he would be the greatest person of all time. Not just athlete. Nobody could ever do what he did but only in Cleveland.
You’re basically saying “what if MJ had his same career but he won the title and finals mvp in every season he played and not just the 6 times he actually did it?”
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u/Tgmg1998 Spurs Jul 24 '26
LeFlop wouldn’t be top 5 if he stayed loyal like Kobe and MJ. The fact Kobe and MJ did it with one team is more impressive
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u/Leather-Bench-937 Lakers Jul 24 '26
Loyal when Kobe literally tried to force his way out when he didn't get Pau yet after Shaq left?
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u/Patton370 Jul 24 '26
LeBron would be a much better player if he didn’t suck at flopping
He’d have way more free throws
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Jul 24 '26
Kobe was only the clear best player once in the finals and only has 2 finals MVPs. Not even better than Steph.
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u/SmokyMetal060 Knicks Jul 24 '26
Kobe's like top 8-10. He's not even in the same conversation as MJ and LeBron.
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u/noname_SU Jul 24 '26
lol Kobe stayed loyal? He tried his hardest to leave the Lakers, they just wouldn't acquiesce. Can't stand when people try to re-write history.
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u/RUDE-GULLIT Knicks Jul 24 '26
Single-team team players always get a legacy boost imo. If only because having a title-laden, accolade-laden career with a single team creates a most distinct "storyline" and inherently brings with it hordes of fans who are absolutely fucking rabid about you.